Another Balt Thread

Discussion in 'Kongai virtual card game' started by Seven, Jul 3, 2010.

  1. Seven

    Seven New Member

    I am sure that this has been mentioned many times before, in fact I remember reading a post on here about how to make up for the fact that Balt has a two-turn move (ie. Load->Fire) he has all these other things to compensate, such as a move to change ranges and not be stunned.

    While this is all well and good, I remember going into detail about how it was impossible to hit anyone with an ambush as Tafari unless they decided that it was better for them to get hit than to avoid it.

    Both Load->Fire and Hide->Ambush are two turn moves but one works reliably and dangerously while the other one does not work at all. This means that realistically Taf only has his innate plus 3 moves and Balt has all the options he needs to pwnface.

    What's up with that?

    Rather than point out problems, my would-be solution is to make the load buff only last x turns.

    Anyone else's thoughts?
     
  2. arthurmauk

    arthurmauk New Member

    I actually think that this is a preferable idea than tweaking Shot-put or Drop Kick since it attacks the problem at the root. But I'm not sure what x should be - 3 seems too short, maybe 5?
     
  3. Cerberus™

    Cerberus™ Member

    I agree; my earlier idea was to make it last 5 turns, and make it removable on top.
     
  4. DredNicolson

    DredNicolson Active Member

    Any active Load Cannon buffs could instead just be removed when he switches out. (It wouldn't be that safe to run with a loaded cannon, after all.)
     
  5. Eiderdaus

    Eiderdaus New Member

    I'm against the timed load buff.

    One way to play Balt is to seat him on the bench loaded, and wait for a nice double switch opportunity. This mechanic is unique to Balt, and it should be conserved, as uniqueness is fun. (Well, Ashi/Oni might do this, but their nukes are slow.) I believe this is not overpowered, because:
    • Even if you come in at far, you might press far, thus the tactic costs 100 energy and can leave you in a bad hole.
    • Your previous character may get intercepted as the opponent knows your Balt.
    • Balt may get intercepted himself when switching out with a load early in the game. Fire Cannon isn't used early in the game, because the early game is usually played for safety, so intercepting a loaded Balt at far is a viable move. Until the intercept makes its way into the meta.
    I don't believe he needs a nerf.

    In case you still find he does, maybe remove the ability for multiple loads? Multiple loads would be suboptimal in reallife, anyway. Or chop off one point of light defense.

    -- Simon
     
  6. arthurmauk

    arthurmauk New Member

    100 energy for 65 damage plus 10 splash damage is worth it, we do it for Pilebunker all the time. A bad hole is defined as not having enough energy to threaten anything except running or resting. Having enough energy to Shot-put is NOT in a bad hole.
    Second point is applicable to all characters.
    Third point is fair, but there is a point where characters with the potential to do so much damage that they are simply too scary to intercept. I've intercepted Balt at close before, but I've never felt like he was on the defensive when he was loaded with 50 energy and at far. In a situation like that, intercepting is most likely the worst option since it loses to attacking and draws to intercepting (a draw here is not good for you).

    Also, I didn't know that Load Cannon buffs were unremovable?! Yes, they should definitely be removable by Tiger Pounce and Sword Flurry, etc. Those guys have a bad enough matchup against Balt as it is. I'm even considering a point drop in physical defence... :evil:
     
  7. Eiderdaus

    Eiderdaus New Member

    Yup, I'm fine with that definition. As an attempt to defend the first point, however, CC can Pilebunker out of the box, while Balt has to load and take damage. CC can Voidstream with 20 energy, which is IMO a little better overall than Shotput because of speed, hitrate, dual-rangedness, and not having to proc to be good. Both of these may make up for the extra damage of Fire Cannon.

    I'm fine with a nerf to Balt's physical or light defenses. Starbuck appears to work with 5-0-0 and a 50 % interrupt, whereas Balt has 5/1/1 a speed 5 teleport. Don't know if you can compare these two guys well though.
     
  8. Cerberus™

    Cerberus™ Member

    I have intercepted Balt plenty of times at far when he could Fire, an I do not regret it: everyone knows that Loaded Balts at far like to switch in order to avoid the "50-50" of firing into the air and staying behind at 20 en unloaded against Phoebe.
     
  9. Lolzorz

    Lolzorz New Member

    OP: Ambush isn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

    But the Load->Fire combo isn't what's overpowered about Balt.

    What's overpowered about him is that he has everything:
    - "Gain-energy" spammable.
    - Stun chance, and on a cheap move.
    - High survivability.
    - Strong combo, especially as a benched threat (more than Fire Cannon, it's intercepting the air because you expect a Balt switch-in that causes harm).
    - Arguably the game's best range-changer.

    Drop Kick in particular is OP, it just completely shuts down so many characters.
    In fact, replacing the Load/Fire combo by medium damage/EN/Speed moves would keep Balt as strong, if not make him even stronger.


    Letting Load Cannon be removed by buff-remover would be a slight nerf against:
    - Onimaru. Sounds sensible, Onimaru has an horrible match-up against many chars, including Balt so making it possible to remove Load Cannon and deal 6 damage for 80 Energy doesn't sound OP... nor even that good as Balt can Drop Kick and Load again next turn, starting the Onimaru shut-down loop.

    - Zina. In this case, it would have to be examined more thoroughly.


    But frankly, the nerfs I'd like for Balt are:
    - Heavy Drop Kick nerf. Seriously, the move is insane.
    - HP nerf. 85 HP on a dual-ranged char with Shotput and Drop Kick? Never going to be balanced.
     
  10. Feff

    Feff Member

    Also Ranec, Agathe, and any robot that can remove buffs.
     
  11. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    The fact that he gains energy on shotput is insignificant because it takes 2 shots to make a difference. Also, a turn where he is using shot is a turn where he is not loading/firing. Shotput's a great move, but on the wrong character.

    Just IMO, there's no such thing as a strong combo in this game. Doing a combo means that one move will most likely follow another, making that character much more predictable. If you expect a load cannon at far, you can counter by switching in anex, for example.

    Not really. Amaya's ninja-port is just about the same, but it doesn't shut down that many characters. Most chars have options against drop kick. Only Onimaru really gets shut down by drop kick I think.


    Not saying that a Balt nerf would be uncalled for, it's just that people are freaking out about this character that isn't actually as strong as people say he is.
     
  12. Mega

    Mega Member

    Remove the ability for multiple loads
    or
    Drop Kick energy cost 30->35, speed 2
    or
    drop kick not always push, a 70% proc. Still reliable, but not a sure move without ornamental egg.
     
  13. Cerberus™

    Cerberus™ Member

    That,

    and that.
     
  14. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Honestly Balt MIGHT be balanced (extremely unlikely but possible), but who really cares? His current form causes LAME gameplay and is especially lame late game; Balt is to Kongai as O.Sagat is to SSFTII, perhaps not GOD tier but hopelessly overpowering in too many situations and quite frankly boring.

    At the VERY least Drop Kick energy cost 30->35.
     
  15. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    What's so unfun about balt? It's not like he can completely shut down all moves or unnecessarily make games longer.
     
  16. Seven

    Seven New Member

    @ lolz

    About ambush being bad, even if you switch in with Taffy on a character with no energy, next turn he gets 20en. Hide // Rest leaves the character with 60en which is enough to push far to avoid ambush.

    About Balt, how about making it so that multiple Loads cost more and more energy so that there's less and less point in doing it? Either that or each time a shot is loaded Fire goes up by 5en.

    Or on an even more extreme note, loading cannon disables his switch which means he's stuck in play until he fires. A new mechanic (don't know if any of the unreleased characters has this) and increases how interesting he is to play.

    Off-topic: How come all other debuffs other than leafy trap can be stacked?
     
  17. Golden119

    Golden119 Member

    Hmm? Shotput has great synergy with Fire Cannon - it stuns so your cannon won't be switched, and does enough damage that your cannon will likely kill the enemy even if they started at full, and is cheap enough that if you used it instead of Fire Cannon and they switched, they still face the cannon next turn.

    That is a good observation. Balt has 30 more HP than Amaya to save him from the close nukes, interrupts etc that Speed 5 teleport do not prevent. Amaya has his innate and Curse.

    Drop Kick lets Balt beat Oni plus CC, Juju, Ashi, Ranec. The move with his innate/stats add Ambro, Rumi, Yoshi, Zina, Darla, and I think Gun (not familiar enough really with Knights). This probably isn't an exhaustive list, but these are not uncommon cards.

    Balt is highly versatile and hard to punish. But really his game hinges on landing the cannon at some point, and if you can avoid that (even once) then he doesn't bring a lot else to the table.

    I think I would still use him with 35 energy teleport or PDef lowered by 1. I think he'd be viable if his Load was removable or time limited. I believe I would not use him with Speed 4 Drop Kick.
     
  18. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Actually in many late game situations he does drag the game out quite a bit because of how spamable Drop Kick is and how unreasonable it is to risk eating a Cannon.
     
  19. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    62 damage while regaining some energy to retaliate vs 18 damage repeatedly while doing nothing to actually damage balt? Most of the time it's reasonable to eat a cannon. If not, you've probably lost.
     
  20. Seven

    Seven New Member

    Actually, you should consider how much damage both moves do.

    According to the wiki, the average hp of the characters is 73 with 3 physical defense.

    That means that drop kick does an average of 15 damage (18-3).

    And Fire does an average of 59 damage (62-3).

    Both moves together do 74 damage though which is above the mean 73 hp that the characters have.
     
  21. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    Averages aren't very useful for determining balt's matchups though. A quite a few 3+ defense chars are over 70 hp for example. Also a few of the characters that are 2 def 70 hp are amazons, who can equip breastplate or herbal, which offsets the damage that balt does.
     
  22. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Personally if it's late game and I'm in kill range of Cannon, I'd rather take my chances on 1 of the 4-5 Drop Kicks missing than eat a Cannon and let the game end. I've also run into allot of late game situations where my best option was to eat Drop Kick 3-5 times so that his energy would be low enough that I could safely kill him at far. It often drags the game out in a very boring predictable way.
     
  23. Seven

    Seven New Member

    Perhaps if we looked at this from a different angle?

    For those of you who say that Balt is balanced as he is, what changes would you make to make him overpowered?
     
  24. Eiderdaus

    Eiderdaus New Member

    I have confirmed with Oni that the load buffs are unremovable. This should change (I think this is a bug, not a balancing decision), and maybe the multiple loads. Load-fire is fine otherwise.

    Not sure anymore if Balt's overpowered or not as a whole. If Dropkick cost 35 energy or did less damage, it would still be the most useful teleport in the game. (Amaya deals less damage with his teleport. MLM teleports at speed 6, but it's more expensive, deals less damage, it's the other range anyway, and he has a worse energy curve than Balt.)

    Speed 4 Dropkick sounds too weak. If Oni can't kill Balt, it's not necessarily a problem of Balt. Also, with removable load buffs, Oni could enjoy the 35 energy Dropkick more than it being speed 4, 30 energy... Haven't thought this through all the way.
     
  25. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    I wouldn't do that with most characters. Yoshiro, popo, and ring of curses vamps, probably, but otherwise, you're taking kick 3-5 times, which ranges from 18x3 to 18x5 damage. Also, a balt shoudln't be doing that anyway. After 2-3 drop kicks, he should rest to full en to make you guess between pass and get close.

    Add dark and light defense.
     
  26. Fry

    Fry Well-Known Member

    That isn't going to help. There an incredibly large number of ways to make a character overpowered, probably none of them actually tell you anything useful.
     
  27. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Accounting for physical defense, 18x3, 4 or in some cases even 5 is still less than 62. Furthermore if 62 is absolutely going to kill you it's still ALWAYS better to take a chance on the miss, even if it's only 5%. Remember, I'm talking about late game here.
     

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