Better Beta Balance

Discussion in 'Kongai virtual card game' started by snioginsael, Sep 19, 2009.

  1. snioginsael

    snioginsael New Member


    Energy core is good enough that any character with it is solid at minimum, including B9 or old helene. Robots aren't worth discussing until that's resolved, except to say that angelan should be good regardless. Spamming hide a few times while threatening her ambush is huge threat and low-risk.

    Gunbjorn looks very, very good. Not many new characters are good leads or can threaten really scary stuff at close range. Bjorn does both. Ubu was a great lead before, if not the best, despite having to go far, while bjorn makes people push far (which is still fine for him). Right now, basically the only thing I can see keeping him down is the current energy core.

    Keep an eye on starbuck, as he's also a rare, good, closer-ranger from the new set. Gigaton w/ crit or stun is very close to a kill in most situations. K-9 whelp->starbuck might be overpowered right now, not sure. I don't think whelp->taf guaranteed ambush is a big deal, but it's something to watch out for.

    Marvin has some potentially very powerful interactions if his innate works the way it should. Marv->taf could be brutal, marv->gorbax lets him power up safely, marv->juju gives him a likely heal chain or heal->ToD threat (if ToD ends up being a threat). I would personally love it if marvin ended up top tier, as he seems like one of the most fun characters to play and to design decks around. Not sure if "make the interesting characters see play" is part of your plan, but his yomi will be exciting, and the number of guessing games and specific interactions he'll have should be staggering.

    Cervantes in his current form might be good, might have to yomi right too often to be good (without sextant), but I think his innate will simply not be fun. Many counter-switches will just be aggravating. Auger's innate can do similar things counter-wise, for instance, but looks like it will be fun to play with as it lets the opponent gamble if they want to, as opposed to twiddling their thumbs. With sextant, even at 50%, he might be worrisome.

    VV will likely be extremely good and irritating. Part of the problem there is that she can counter many characters who are on the bench, so while sadie won't get a 1hko from her, escaping doesn't do her much good either.

    Phoebe was 2nd worst before the new characters and I can't see any point in touching her now. Darla's just flat-out better.
  2. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    Current tier list



    Everybody else
    Sirlin asking for a tier list
  3. Twinge

    Twinge New Member

    Agree! I think any effect that completely nullifies all damage of any type is a bad move for fun and overall matchups. Maybe his innate should be like a 50% chance to dodge physical attacks for 2 turns instead of 100%? (If weak, could also apply if he is lead turn 1 or something.)
  4. Twinge

    Twinge New Member

    Ok, old character analysis, based only on vague hunches and feelings. This is not a properly formed and full opinion.

    Amaya: Should be a bit better with fixed innate, and fewer mega-threats like VV, as well as better Figurine.
    Higs: Probably fairly similar as before. Maybe slightly weaker overall in comparison to some of the new blood. Combos with IBO.
    Yoshi: Probably good like before; reflect is more relevant, and high light resist is rare and handy. Still has hits fleeing action, and possibly some new decent item picks.
    Oni: Probably a bit worse. Seems like maybe some new chars can do similar things better. Probably still not awful though.
    Rumi: Probably a hair weaker, especially with multi-hit light attacks fairly common and no light resist.
    Andro: Probably a bit stronger. Has some interestng combinations with new chars. May still want a few minor buffs to bring her in line though.
    Anex: Still pretty good, but weaker.
    Ashi: Should still be pretty good, probably not as hurt by new stuff as Oni is? Not sure.
    Helene: Obviously better. Still probably pretty weak.
    Phoebe: A sad story. Used to be basically a worse version of Anex. Now a worse version of Anex and Darla and sort of Gunbjorn.
    Juju: Weaker. Should still be good if ToD can't be dispelled. Still needs innate fix and mirror fix.
    Popo: Probably Weaker. So many light attacks running around. Maybe deserves another point or two of light resist or some other tweak.
    Taf: Should be fairly similar. Still has uber innate with low damage dealing. Sucks against some, good against others, as ithas been. Maybe a little weaker because of the light resist thing again.
    Ubie: Weaker with weaker innate obviously, but should still be decent. SA for 40en is still beastly, and team buffs have some decent new options too.
    Zina: Kind of outclassed by Sadie probably. They should be a little more distinct.
    Ambro: Bleed Rit is weaker since debuffs are removed easier. SC is a bit stronger since dark resist is rarer overall. Probably a hair worse overall but not drastic.
    Cain: Seems about his same bad self. I will probably still suggest +1 Tackle damage after number crunching, and some other small buffs would be good.
    CC: A bit worse, still good.
    MLM: Probably a bit worse, could maybe still use tiny buffs.
    VV: Probably about the same overall. Still a swingy char with some very good and some very bad matchups. More swingy since there's more chars out there.
  5. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Yeah, there are quite a few new characters with fast, multihitting light attacks (Darla, Bestor, B9, Wei-Shan) which pretty much ruin Rumi's day. Innate is good in most situations, though, so she might still see play.

    Popo is going to have the same issues, but worse, because she only has 60 HP and relies heavily on playing the stalling game.

    Helene is actually looking pretty good - not top tier or anything, but she should be able to fulfil her role as tank/damage sponge admirably.

    Cain might actually be better in the new metagame thanks to all the new slow close-range moves, although the witches will likely be problem matchups unless he gets CC's Voidstream. Marvin will be a bad matchup but have great synergy.
  6. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    So, since Sirlin's been requesting it, my rough rough rough draft at a current tier list:


    A (Good to Overpowered): Grog, Doubloons, Bracers, Emblem (without bug), Capacitor, Energy Core, Null Matrix(?), Nails

    B (Probably OK): Sextant (?post-nerf), Prism, Flagon(?), Ring of Bravery (without bug), Omega Boosters,

    C (Bad to Garbage): Egg(?), Spyglass(?), Zphase, Non-nails witch items


    A: Juju (with proposed ToD buff), Starbuck, Gunbjorn, Oxbox, Gorbax, Sadie

    ?Cornelius, Anex, Voss, Darla, Ranec Vest (not sure after recent nerfs), Wei-Shan, Angelan, K9, Marvin,

    B: Amaya, Rumiko, Yoshiro, Andromeda, Tafari, Auger (hard to say before innate fix), Balthazar, Agathe (? too many glitches), Margo, Sophie

    ? Higashi (with Chi Blast buff), Ashi, Helene, Popo, Ubuntu, MLM, Rathbone(? too many glitches), Bestor, B9, Eva

    C: Onimaru, Phoebe, Zina, Ambrosia, Cain

    Some specific notes:

    At first I thought Juju was harmed by the new metagame but instead there's like 2-3 characters he was threatened to get shut down by and does fine otherwise. I still think he should have ToD buff because too many things outright shut him down otherwise, but otherwise should be left alone until we have enough games for an actual metagame to develop.

    My former pet card Ambrosia is so low because of so much debuff clearing and light magic flying around. Also, if witches make Voss more popular she will cry.

    Higashi got some horrible matchups, but there are a lot of others I haven't thought through. Chi blast getting +1 speed means Ranec won't kill him for free, but there are a few others like Captain that are scary.

    Eva is the most underrated card in the new sets. Everyone thinks she's trash, but she has a hugely damaging hits fleeing attack, for being mono-light she only sort of cares about resistances (chi blast/lightning arrow is another matter). Even if she's not playable, she's probably at the level of Anex right before we accidentally made her overpowered.

    I won't play Margo because she has a game-crashing glitch, but humorously enough I thought she was borderline unplayable and Alhazard thought she was borderline god tier. Then he explained what he was doing with her and I explained some counters and we both realized there were some very good points on both sides so now she's mid.

    I think Andro is poised to make a comeback. More good tanks, more light attacks, and less Anex. Oh, and she beats Gunbjorne head on which is important right now because he's a freaking beast.

    K9 and Sophie seem like the most difficult cards to play in the new sets so I find them hard to rate. I have played K9 nonstop since getting into the beta and I'm still not sure how good he is.
  7. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Finally someone has an opinion. Chad, A+.
  8. Twinge

    Twinge New Member

    Here's an incomplete list:

    2.1.4, with some assumiptions for already planned changes.

    Tier 1
    Gunbjorn - Solid, but not unstoppable. Bone Chill needs to probably have separate procs for damage and effect to make sense; right now definitely too strong since it deals 20 total damage in addition to the effect.
    Yoshi - Maybe up here? Light resist + old Yoshihax tricks, and same old effective speed 9 hits fleeing, seems pretty good.

    Tier 1.5
    Starbuck - I think he's pretty reasonable right now, and would not suggest more nerfs for a while.
    Wei - I think he'll still be pretty strong after innate fix. Not completely sure, but has some neat options and innate will still be pretty strong.
    Anex - Light resist drop hurts. Probably still pretty good. Also, you probably had light resist high to start with because she is Xena, and Xena maybe has high light resist.

    Tier 2
    Andromeda - Seems better now, though still probably tough to play to best potential.
    Ashi - I'm thinking a little better than Oni now.
    MLM - still has issues with certain mega-fail matchups. Some of that will be tweaked later on. Could probably still use tiny buffs like 100% BB.
    Oni - Not as bad as people think, but still maybe a little on the weak side. Maybe faste curse/spirit?
    Oxbox - Nothing special, would be lower if not for his massive HP. Has 2 very weak moves rarely if ever worth using.
    B9 - Protect Family is now a really nice move and his other optins are okay too. Probably could use some tweaks but seems reasonable right now.
    Eva - I agree with Chad and think most people underrate her. I do think she needs some changes, and I'd probably weaken her hits fleeing a little bit. Also depends on how her stare is going to end up working.
    Ubie - Probably weaker now but probably still decent?

    Tier 2.5
    Taf - 0 light resist could really hurt him now, but he is probably still at least decent.
    Balt - On the weak side, But not terrible. Another point or two of defense somewhere might help make up for the time he needs to ready his main attack.
    Sadie - She actually seems on the weak side to me now. Demon Claws is junk damage for the cost even with the high speed, and while the other moves are decent they are also pricey, and she has 0 phys and light resist. I would actually keep the ignore resistances part of innate but drop damage boost a little bit, and buff her other moves a little bit (DC at least 15x2, probably 16x2).
    Sophie - I actually like her, but she seems weak. She does have a pretty nice innate, but her damage output is fairly low overall, and Shadow Circle seems kind of weak even with the ability to chain-cast since it's hurting her too. I'd probably at least tack on a light resist or two.

    Tier 3-4
    Popo - More light attacks and fewer physical attacks is flat-out bad news for Popo. Maybe Herbal Prep cures a debuff too? Or 1 more light resist?
    Bestor - Basically a monoranger with mediocre defenses, HP, and high energy attacks. Drop FSF to 40en, and make Searing into a new move with a different proc, and have it cost 20-35en.


    Tier 1
    Capacitor - Easily still strong, likely still too strong.
    Null Matrix - Disabling Bench items too seems really good, and by default better than any other item in a way. Probably strong enough only disabling active opponent's item.
    Booster - Way good right now since numbers are off, but even fixed seems very strong at 5x3. Also useless for Marvin which seems bad. I suggest making it work for light and dark magic, and making it 50%/5x3 -> 60%/3x4 instead. Compare to Deadly Poison.
    Core - Still solid at 50 energy, maybe not overpowered anymore?
    Nails - Definitely good. I'd bump damage it redirects to ally from 50% to 70%.

    Tier 1.5
    Grog Mug - Probably about right. Definitely don't drop below +25, and even that is probably unnecessary.

    Tier 2
    Emblem - seems fine. I'd like it to not work in combo with Nails.
    Ring of Bravery - Assuming 3 damage Ring that only hits on attacks (and maybe intercepts), I'd put it Tier 2.
    Z-Phase - Seems maybe reasonable now? Haven't used it. Going to be hard to make both this and Core good in the same item group.
    Sigil - Seems okay, overshadowed by Nails.
    Book - Fixed book is maybe here.

    Tier 2.5
    Doubloons - Overrated I think. Maybe 5 energy and 5 damage in the course of a game? Even 7 damage and 10 energy, which is probably going to be more than average, is not an especially strong effect.
    Flargon - Probably on the weak side. I'd start by making it 100% at least, and going from there.
    Prism - Also seems weak, but I am less certain.
    Tarot - Fixed with hitting robots too and it's okay, but probably a little on the weak side.

    Tier 4
    Periapt - I don't see myself ever using this. Should be new ability, heal X for every debuff you receive seems pretty cool.
  9. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Moderator (old) Staff Member

    Wei-shan is really, really good against mono-rangers and even dual rangers with a <20 damage off-range attack.

    Other than that, no opinion on other things

    Edit: How does Z-phase converter work with Gorbax innate?
  10. Aristizle

    Aristizle New Member

    So my impression from the out side (cough) is that the 5 card game meta has changed (maybe substantially) but remains fairly static (every deck will have characters: v,w,x,y, and z ). This seem right?
  11. Gavisi

    Gavisi Well-Known Member

    The answer right now is that Gorbax does not get energy from damaging himself. Probably a bug.

    JujuFeather is still up there, he just doesn't have many weaknesses. I think Twinge's idea of Dark resist -> 3 is a good start, along with ToD buff it fixes the mirror, and lower Dark resist gives him at least SOME area he's vulnerable in. (although not even that vulnerable)

    Gunbjorn is tier 0.9 until Bone Chill is fixed. Afterwards, tier 1. Wei-shan and Starbuck are tier 1 to tier 1.5 or so.

    Still wondering what Eva's Hypnotic Stare is supposed to do. Fiery Passion is my favorite attack in the game, but if it needs a nerf, maybe energy -> 35 so that if you Far -> Passion, you can't Hypnotic Stare next turn. Chad was proposing changing her innate to 25% chance opponent can't attack when she switches in. The current innate is really swingy and rarely comes up. Also maybe some kind of buff or change with her Close attacks so that she doesn't fall apart against high Light resist people.

    Trudeau is a little weak, and variable - if they have low Dark resist, Demon Frenzy is amazing, if they have high Dark resist, Trudeau can't do much. Demon Claws can go to 16x2, resistance makes it reasonable and it is pretty expensive. penguin's going to fix Trudeau so that her innate doesn't ignore resistances, since that's Sirlin's intention, but I think ignoring resistances could be pretty cool change for her innate. Maybe she doesn't even need a damage boost if she's ignoring resists, Demon Frenzy becomes 40 at both ranges with that scary proc.
  12. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    Unless the last update broke it, this is wrong and the answer is in my bugs/interactions thread.

    EDIT: After some testing, looks like the last update DID break it. I know it worked back when zphase was 4:1, not sure why it's stopped working now.
  13. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    There is no metagame. Right now at least 75% of the play over the weekend has been testing bugs, so most of what we've been able to hammer out for sure is obvious broken stuff.

    It also didn't help that Gorbax was like Tier -1 at first. K9 actually had multiple glitches in his favor at first that allowed him to, say, rangechange for 0 Energy AND attack for 0 energy for two turns, and use a "Self Destruct" attack that only killed him half the time, and he was still not the best character in the game. Right now there are several characters we can't even play because they have too many bugs, and few people have done much playtesting with the old characters because we haven't worn the new off the new ones yet.

    Most people were reluctant to make a tier list AT ALL because of the above, but Sirlin at least wants general impressions so I made that post at his request.
  14. supermarth64

    supermarth64 New Member

    What's the ToD buff?
  15. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    ToD can't be removed.
  16. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Oh I forgot, if you give a tier list please include the version number of the game you mean to comment on. Right now it's 2.1.4.
  17. YXG

    YXG New Member

    Ok there is mine for 2.1.4

    Characters :

    Tier 1 :
    -Gunbjorn (as said before, very solid)

    Tier 1.5 :
    -Sadie (no way she is weak for me, at least with the nails)
    -Yoshiro (with the rise of light attacks and the fall of anex, we will probably gonna see him often)
    -Starbuck (he's ok)
    -Wei-shan? (Has some good, some bad match ups, decent overall.)
    -Ubuntu (with the rain dance as an alternative to staff strike, he remains cool)
    -Ranec Vest? (awsome innate+sextant)
    -VV (light resist)

    Tier 2 :
    -Anex (gives up her goddess status)
    -Pretty much all the amazones.
    -Fallen Knight? (spam domination?)
    -Gorbax (with energy core)
    -Angelan? (didn't like her)
    -Margo Curie
    -Agathe the Grey
    -Eva Bovary
    -Darla Cross

    Tier 2.5 :
    -Other Ninjas (get their ass kicked by light)
    -Tafari :(
    -Other Vamps
    -Auger Blackboot (I feel Rapid-fire pistol needs a little up)
    -Balthazar (Little magic resistances, need a load to attack correctly)
    -Marvin (attacks to slow for his health)

    Tier 3:
    -Bestor (monranger, bad innate)
  18. zakid

    zakid Member

    Here's a hasty tier list from me. I don't include old cards, since I haven't really used them during the beta - their placement on the tier list would be rather intuitive.

    Tier 1
    Gorbax - can be devastating (especially with Energy core; low hp chars on bench may end up dead)
    Sadie - Besides awesome Demon Frenzy, she has some other interesting options - can paralyze, or create a vortex. Zina's innate works well on her. All this is slightly compensated with crappy resistances, but she's still good.
    Oxbox - somewhat like Yoshi - once he stuns you, you are mostly screwed.
    Angelan - Cloak is great, has a range of useful attacks and a nice innate

    Tier 1.5
    Starbuck - a good close range fighter with a great innate (or non-innate:p)
    Darla Cross - Phoebe v.2.0, great at far + stealing items is fun.
    Auger Blackboot - Aimed Pistol is powerful. Works very well with Sextant.
    Ranec Vest - not that great after nerfs, seems fine now (altough Sextant is also scary on him).
    Gunbjorn - solid. nerf Bone Chill tho.
    Wei-Shan - decent, versatile char.

    Tier 2
    Eva - decent close range options + a pretty good hit-fleeing attack
    IBO - definitely viable, but still an average char
    Balthazar - I'm still not sure how Load Cannon is supposed to work. Still, he seems average
    Bestor - his attacks are too expensive, considering he'll have to press "get close" often
    Agathe - isn't dominant at any range; yet hard to call her versatile
    Sophie - pretty much what Twinge said.

    Tier 3,4
    B9 - slightly better after buffs, still needs some changes imo
    Rathbone - too glitchy now. Low HP, small light resistance+ damages his own team
    Marvin - fix Energy Sap plz. without it working, he's pretty weak
    Margo - not sure what to write here - seems pretty weak overall

    EDIT. it's for 2.1.4 version
  19. CantankerousM

    CantankerousM New Member

    Is Twinge going to propose that ToD hits far as well? :D
  20. Twinge

    Twinge New Member

  21. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    Lol, although there's actually a good reason for this. First of all, it helps the mirror, which is something that's always been a Juju problem. Second... uh... actually I don't remember the other reason :p someone else chime in for me.
  22. Twinge

    Twinge New Member

    Lots of stuff that screws with buffs, and Touch of Doom is apparently just so awesome it avoids all that noise.

    It doesn't really help the mirror at all. If you're in a position to ToD each other then you'll die soon enough, not in 500 turns like it is at far!
  23. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    I thought having both chars die in 4 turns rather than 500 helps the mirror.
  24. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    2.1.5 is on the beta server. So now you can play that and make new tier list.
  25. Alhazard

    Alhazard Well-Known Member


    New set
    A: Gunbjorn, Oxbox, Starbuck, Gorbax, Sadie, Marvin
    B: Margo, Darla, Captain, Wei, Rathbone, Cervantes, Angela
    C: Bestor, B9, Eva, K9, Balthazar, Sophie
    ?: Degrey (bugged)

    Old Set
    A: Juju, Voss, CC, Anex, Yoshiro, Zina (with bugfix, if not, D rank), EDIT: Ubuntu
    B: Onimaru, Helene, Tafari, Ashi, Rumiko, Higashi, Phoebe, Andro
    C: Amaya, MLM, Ambrosia, Cain,
    D: Popo

    No changes except Rathbone should be in rank A now
  26. zakid

    zakid Member

    Currently, this means that if my 1HP character is hit with, for example, a critbunker, my bench character dies instead.
    It probably shouldn't be supposed to count overkill damage.
  27. YXG

    YXG New Member

    How about a little up for the proc of marvin's depressive mood like 70%?
  28. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I love Auger, but he is T3 until his Word of Command is fixed to bypass his innate and cost the enemy's energy. Right now it's a 45 EN move at his bad range that does on average maybe 20 damage.
  29. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    This might make sense to implement, but OHKOs are rare enough that I don't think it's a huge priority.

    Maybe we want people to use other items sometimes?
  30. jiaflu

    jiaflu Member


    You have Rumi with 60HP left in deck, CC critbunks 1HP Sadie with Nails. You have a dead Rumi.

    It doesn't have to be OHKO, but clearly overkill dmg makes Nails a poor-er item. Though, I actually like the idea of overkill dmg going through, but for Nails to retain a SLIGHT dmg reduction property.
  31. jiaflu

    jiaflu Member

    Does Nails (or is Nails supposed to) transfer dmg from killing intercept dmg? Also DoT dmg?

    Yes to transferring of DoT dmg.

    -edit 2-
    Twinge 95% sure intercept dmg transfers

    -edit 3-
    Multiple Nails can be broken with one killing blow.
  32. Gavisi

    Gavisi Well-Known Member

    To elaborate on this: your Witch1 with Nails dies. She might pass the damage to Witch2 with Nails on your team. If the damage would kill Witch2 with Nails, then Witch2's Nails activate, and could possibly pass the damage back to Witch1. In which case, Witch1 still got hit by the killing blow, and two Nails were broken for nothing. penguin confirmed this since we can't test with multiple items.

    The moral of the story is, don't use two Nails on your team.
  33. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Of course, CC using Pilebunker on a 1 HP opponent is a decision that he would only make against someone using Nails.

    I see what you're saying, though. It doesn't seem right for Rumi to get critbunked in that situation, but Rumi only taking 1 damage seems wrong too.

    75-80%, maybe?

    On another note, I played new Bestor last night and he is much better now, he can stack Volcanic Ritual and critbuff his Flame Sword Frenzy. I can see putting him in decks now.

    Popo isn't just worse, but probably bottom tier now that there are a lot more light attacks and debuff removals flying around. Pretty bad for a character who used to be favored by the metagame.
  34. Twinge

    Twinge New Member

    Agreed, that's part of why I was suggesting around 75% redirection instead of 50% or 100%.
  35. Max Vultur

    Max Vultur New Member

    Ok, here's my tier list based on the v2.1.7, with some propositions. It concerns only the new cards for now, since I still need to think over the one with the older ones included (also I think the old cards works just fine, albeit with some exceptions...). I'm afraid that I haven't played the beta as much as the others did, so maybe I'm still missing something, but here's my two cents anyway:


    God tier (overpowered):
    -Starbuck: Gigaton Punch is too good, considering his innate and its effect. Taking into account it's a light-based attack, has a chance to daze the enemy and the high chance to crit, I think the damage should be reduced to 30.
    -Sadie: Demon Frenzy deals too much damage considering it has a chance to attack another enemy with the same amount, and it becomes even worse when her innate activates. Either the damage to the benched enemy should be reduced(like half of the originale damage) or it should be reduced the damage of the attack itself (something along the lines of 6x4/8x4).
    -Ranec Vest: Psycho Crusher is another overpowered attack considering that once close, Ranec can use Two-sword slash, which is a killer combo for almost everyone(especially with sextant). In my opinion it should be reduced to 30 damage and 40 energy.

    High tier: Oxbox, Agathe, Wei-shan, Gunbjorn, Auger. Nothing to say on them, they're fine.

    Middle tier: Balthazar, Bestor, Angelan, B9, Ibo, MR, Eva, Margo, Gorbax, Darla. They are fine too, with the exception of...
    -Darla: she's not bad, but it should be better. I suggest to change her Poisoned Blade attack to 18 damage, and the turns of the poison from 2 to 3.
    -Gorbax: my only appoint is to reduce Gorbax's Death Blossom energy cost from 60 to 40 and his damage to 8x2, in this way he'll have a low-cost attack that works in both ranges, which I think he needs (considering its low hit-rate).

    Bottom tier:
    -Rathbone: Of all characters...his new attack it's very good, but he still needs to be improved. I would switch Siphon with a midly-powerful close-range physical attack, something along the lines of Onimaru's SF or Vanessa's DS(another 5x7 maybe), since I can imagine very few reason for someone to use an attack like that, which practically penalizes your team as much as the enemy's. Another option would be to change Siphon to "drains 25 from enemy, 15 from ally and returns 20 to Fallen Knight".
    -Sophie: She's not bad per se, but the problem with her is that there's no reason why someone should choose her over Ambrosia or Amaya, despite her being a sort of fusion of the two. Here some suggestions to improve her: Circle of shadows shouldn't damage her, and Shadow Word should be replaced with a close-range attack that drains health (something along the lines of Ambrosia's Vamp kiss), since there are very few situations where one would choose this attack over Glyph.

    No tier with this, just a few suggestions.
    -Grog mug: 30 health it's simply too much, I would lower it to 25.
    -The tarot card effect is too low, it should be improved to 20% considering it affects only males, otherwise someone will hardly choose this over the black book or the coffin nails.
    -Hero's Flagon effect should be improved to 100%. It doesn't have a particulary great effect, so at least it should always proc.
    -Sextant also should be improved to 60/70%. It works only once, and it's not even a 100% proc afterall.

    Now just a few things concerning the old cards:
    -Valk's charm: since Anex has been nerfed, why do that to this item also? It should be restored to the +2 version in my opinion.
    -This is a thing I had in mind for a long time, and I think now it's the right moment to say it: there should be a limit to phylactery resurrections, so that the matches incomes doesn't depend far too much on luck. How about a max of 2 times?

    Well, that's all for now.

    EDIT: Sirlin's thread wasn't there when I started writing this. Anyway, my post is more about balance than the list itself.
  36. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Angelan is probably too strong right now, since Surprise Attack is much too easy and safe to set up. She can cloak, then cloak again in case they switch out, for a guaranteed Surprise at any range, while having a significant chance to dodge any attack.

    Increase Cloak's cost to 35. This means that she can still do the double cloak trick, but not without resting to use her innate, breaking her core, or taking damage to trigger Z-Phase.
  37. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Quick note - Yoshihax vs witches isn't as bad as I was making it out to be earlier in chat - equipping Coffin Nails or Tarot Card means that a turn 1 stun won't be a guaranteed kill.

    Yoshi is still top tier in the beta and could still use a nerf, but things are better than they look!
  38. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Augh, just ran the numbers and realised that Angelan will still just barely be able to double cloak -> surprise after my suggested 2.1.8 nerf, though she'll be left without enough energy to do another move afterwards.

    We'll see how this goes, I guess. If cloaky cloaky is still too good we can increase Surprise to 75EN.
  39. Alhazard

    Alhazard Well-Known Member

    It doesn't break if it doesn't proc last time I checked
  40. Max Vultur

    Max Vultur New Member

    Yeah, I was referring to when it activates.
  41. jiaflu

    jiaflu Member

    I disagree with cloak to 35en. First you're not guaranteed anything. You can cloak, opponent attacks, cloak again, opponent attacks again, and then you're at a 50/50 coin clip at hitting them. Also, it lets her perfectly break Core for 50en after the combo. Finally, this change also affects her last skill.

    What I suggest is Cloak at 30en, IF YOU MUST, Surprise Attack at 75en (and also gives her set up to Precision Strike so she's not completely tapped out yet).
  42. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    First off, if I've got two cloaks on, I'm not too worried about them attacking again. Second, there's no such thing as perfectly breaking core, core is just 'you start with 150 energy'. Sirlin corrected me on that last night. Lastly, I realised in my subsequent post that my math was wrong, so, uh, whoops!

    That does almost nothing.
  43. jiaflu

    jiaflu Member

    Oh wait, I completely misunderstood how Core activated. That is my bad!

    But Surprise attack at 80en has same effect on your Cloak/Cloak/Surprise Attack combo except it won't affect Precision Strike.
  44. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    After playing more Angelan, you might be right about this being better.

    Cloak+Precision Strike is still awful though

    Edit: Actually, I agree completely with changing Surprise to 80 instead, it makes for much better synergy with A66
  45. Alhazard

    Alhazard Well-Known Member

    EDIT: A66 is still too gooooooooood. Please lower damage to 5 as a starting point
  46. icewolf34

    icewolf34 Well-Known Member

    There seems to be a consensus that A66 is too good at 7, yeah.
  47. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    B9 might actually be too good right now. High HP, good defenses, and a fast heal/debuff remover make B9 incredibly long-lived while he brings back his teammates, especially with Z-Phase Converter. I almost feel like I am gimping myself whenever I play a non-B9 deck.

    I'd say he could definitely stand to go down to 75 or even 70 HP, he's just too safe and sturdy right now.
  48. Drakir

    Drakir Member

    Sadie's Demon Frenzy is overpowered. It would be a good move even if it had no proc, and whenever it does (even on switches) it's basically a free Eye of the Tiger. Something needs to be done.

    Then again, the proc is awesome and flavourful, so we want to find a way to tone the move down without removing it. I suggest something of the following:

    -The proc deals only 2x10 damage.
    -Proc % increased but main damage lowered, maybe to 9x3?

    I was about to put stuff like "mono-range" or a generic damage decrease on that list, but realized that I think a move with an INCREDIBLE 33% proc is simply bad for the game. We already have Popo, and at least there are ways to avoid most of his coinflips. The only way to be reasonably safe against Demon Frenzy is to have really high dark resistances on each character.
  49. supermarth64

    supermarth64 New Member

    Haven't done much calculations or played that much, but maybe we could go for half damage on secondary targets for Demon Frenzy?
  50. x1372

    x1372 Active Member

    additional thoughts

    Well, here's my thoughts on the current beta characters/items only posting on things I'd like to see changed.

    Amaya feels just about right, just a hair weak. Fix the innate issue and actually make shadow curse hit fleeing and he's golden.

    Higashi may be solid now, but he's still a 3-move character for all practical purposes. I'd really like to see sweep at 20 energy.

    I wouldn't mind seeing twinge's idea for 60en evis and 40 en port on Rumi. Fine overall as is tho.

    For andromeda, I'd like to see +1 speed to each of her power moves, to give her a better chance to hit with them. It would help the valk be more relevant on her too.

    On Ashi, I'd like to see something done to make axe handle better. More damage, lower cost, or higher speed would all be appreciated.

    Phoebe... meh, sirlin's sick of hearing me about her. I'd like to see deafening crack have a higher percent chance of success, or hit an incoming character on a switch.

    Popo could really use a bit of added light defense in the current metagame.

    Ambrosia could use a bit more of a buff as well. Unremovable bleeding ritual would be handy, as could an energy cost drop on spectral choke.

    As twinge said, +1 damage to cain's tackle would be quite helpful for him.

    The more I play MLM, the more I like him again. He still gets all but completely destroyed when vamp touch misses or teleport or blood burn fail to proc. Bumping those to 100% would give the old guy new life.

    I'm a bit iffy on balthezar. It seems like he'd be fairer if he had SOME way of doing a bit more damage without firing the cannon. Any chance shot-put could get a minor damage buff?

    Darla seems a bit too powerful. Maybe drop quad daggers damage down to 8x4 or lower its speed.

    Bestor seems a little too strong as well. Maybe slow down the burn/heal of engulfing flames to 4/turn for 5 turns as a start? His innate doesn't seem to play nice with the knight's emblem when he's burned currently.

    B9's combo of his heals and lasers seem too much. would recommend yet another increase in cost of protect family or lasers go down to 9x4.

    IBO should be significantly stronger after the explosion changes in the log are made.


    Healing salve seems a bit weak currently, viable only for very few characters and only slightly even then. Would like to see bench healing, rest healing, going out of play healing, or small debuff healing chance added.

    I would like to see the reinforced breastplate upgrade from 4/1/1 to 4/1/2 defense. This would make it much more viable on the dark defense deprived amazons.

    (self note: check the current effect of the tiger's claws)

    Any chance the necro tome effect rate could be bumped to 33% in light of its recent nerf?

    Not much to complain about in the current setup of new items, though I wouldn't mind seeing the proposed 2 offense drop for opponents sigil or a slight buff to the tarot card to make it effect females to a lesser degree.

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