Better Beta Balance

Discussion in 'Kongai virtual card game' started by snioginsael, Sep 19, 2009.

  1. thegersh

    thegersh New Member

    Is it possible to just have Cain's tantrum be a %age increase, like 30, instead of just helping out the voidstream/bats?

    I think Sextant is too strong as is. Can you make it 60% and have it break after one switch, whether it works or not.

    Dubloons needs more to it...like a 2 hp drain per turn, or a 1 hp/5 energy drain.

    Vin needs a boost...maybe a 40 energy drain on switch in.

    B9 heal should go up to 40 energy and possibly a 2 times in a row restriction. I know nobody really cares about 5 card...but as is, a 30 energy up to 50 hp heal will absolutely destroy it.
  2. Drakir

    Drakir Member

    I agree with all this, although most of it is flavour/gameplay improvements as opposed to actual balance fixes. I'd like to see some accuracy buffs on andro as well.

    I've faced her (bagatelle uses her with breastplate) and feel she is pretty solid right now. Improved hamstring and changed meta both help her lots, as do some of the new team-oriented characters. I'm opposed to further changes.

    +1, and I'd also like to see an accauracy buff for vamp kiss. She NEEDS it to hit. Also, careful to make popo anything better than mid-tier.

    Agreed. Make him the ultimate yomi machine. It suits him well.

    I'd suggest dropping fire cannon to 40 energy, makes threatening with it a lot easier.

    If I were to touch bestor anywhere, it would be Flame Sword Frenzy. Nerf the proc or remove a hit from it imo.

    He seems really good when i've used him, but usually not game-breakingly so. Not sure.

    No reason NOT to.

    It already is viable. I would almost suggest it to be 3/1/1 because of the change to bracers.
  3. Squix

    Squix New Member

    Balance-wise, the beta is actually in surprisingly good shape. The only thing that seems blatantly overpowered is Sadie's Demon Claws, and it's not like Sadie is god tier or anything.

    I've been playing around with Phoebe and I'm with Drakir (and Sirlin); no more changes until we play more with her. She seems viable with Breastplate. She can do also okay with Remedy and Candle, but it depends on who you're up against and the Breastplate is more reliable. The extra survivability from the item, combined with 3-turn hamstring, can set up sequences like Hamstring -> Rapid Lashes -> Rapid Lashes -> or Hamstring -> Rest/Intercept -> Power Lash. It can also set up a switch to a different character, the possibilities of which I haven't fully explored yet.

    Ambrosia gets severely screwed over by high dark resists and debuff curing and is significantly weaker than before. Wei-Shan can almost completely shut her down.

    Cain is....okay. If he's weak, he's not so weak that he desperately needs a buff in the current game. Tackle keeps him usable in a high-dark-resist environment. If he needs a buff, I'd consider tantrum at both ranges, being that it's now a bit like Enchant Blade. Of course, this might just make him "Dark Anex" which may not be a good thing. I'd suggest waiting on this one.

    MR-V1N is fine. You're going to have to do more to convince me he needs a buff. He's capable of shutting down a number of characters without taking any damage himself.

    The sextant is actually at 50% right now and seems fine.

    B9 is strong and probably top-tier, but I'm not sure if he needs changing just yet. I would drop his HP by 5 before doing anything else.

    Now that Load Cannon is fixed and can be loaded multiple times for multiple shots, Balthazar could use some playtesting before a straight out buff. The ability to fire the cannon twice in a row has very big implications.

    I still don't get Oxbox. He's at the top of everyone's tier lists, but I don't see why. Warhammer Smash is a pretty low damage move for its cost, and it's not as though he can spam it or he has any other moves at close to finish the job. I'd be more scared of it if could crit rather than stun. The teleport has a high-ish miss rate. He's not THAT tanky. I dunno, the payoffs just don't seem that high for him on any given turn.

    Doubloons are mildly annoying at best.

    Overall I'd say the balance isn't half-bad. A few things seem quite strong, but it's hard to see if they'll be dominating just yet.
  4. PeteyC

    PeteyC New Member

    My most requested change is a slight nerf to B9. This is less because I think he's strictly too powerful and more because he can cause games to go on for a very long time if he's
    1) Brought in against a character who can't kill him quickly and decides to spam protect family.
    2) Used as a range dancer against a mono-range character, who then has to contend with his innate as well as his range dancing.

    A slight hit point reduction might be okay, but I'd personally like to see protect family not affect B9, only affect the bench. That way at least he's not extending his own life while he's making the game go on forever.

    ---

    The other character I'd like to see tinkered with is Margo. Not because she's too weak or two strong, but because she's really a one note character. Her whole game is hallucination, and hallucination is a very high variance move. I'd rather see hallu weakened and her receive some other buffs instead. I'm not really sure how best to do this, but I'd suggest something like this:

    1) Hallu energy up 60->65
    2) Heartache Speed Up 5->7 (so it is more likely to reduce damage from the attack made against her the same turn she uses it)
    3) Acid Splash Damage up 24->25 (26?)

    ---

    I think Periapt of Proof Against Poison and Everything Else may be a little too much. Can it leave elemental damage alone, and only cause poison/bleeding/burning to heal? I think it will still be well worth equipping even with this change.

    ---

    I understand where people requesting Sadie changes are coming from, but I don't really think she's overpowered right now. Still, she is very high variance, since demon frenzy proccing versus not proccing makes a big difference. If demon frenzy is nerfed I think something else should be made a bit better to make up for it. This might also make her less one note, since demon frenzy almost may as well be her only move right now.
  5. Jexik

    Jexik Member

    What about lowering claws to 35 EN? That would allow her to get close --> Claws x2 instead of Stay wherever --> Demon frenzy
  6. icewolf34

    icewolf34 Well-Known Member

    This feels like a pretty big nerf to me, actually. I agree that right now she is basically Hallu x2, switch/potion/whatever, Hallu x2, though.

    Is Acid Splash dual-range yet? That could help, also.
  7. Lameador

    Lameador New Member

    Though I did'nt test extensively, I found Doubloons as somewhat weak. Currently they strip a character out of 5 energy every 5 turns., as there is little difference between loosing 1 energy and loosing 5.

    I found it played like "when opponent switches in he looses 5 energy" which is somewhat weak.

    They would be buffed to 2 energy/turn (which is almost equivalent to 5 energy every three turns), making the energy drain a litlle more usefull

    On the other hand, sextant is still very strong. It's like giving one pilebunker the "hits fleeing" property in each game.
  8. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I agree with B9 losing 5 HP, Cain getting +1 to Tackle damage (so that he can 3-hit more characters), Ambrosia having unremovable bleeding ritual.

    Darla needs to lose something, Super Eviscerate with egg equipped is huge, stealing items with her innate is huge, access to all three damage types is pretty good also.

    Doubloons are easy to underestimate. Drakir's been able to make very good use of them in our games.
  9. TheElemental

    TheElemental New Member

    My 2 cents so far:

    With so many new multihit light and dark magic attacks, Rumi needs a little help on her resists. She has the worst resists in the whole game, and I'm not sure that is justified, because even though she has access to all types of attacks, she is basically vulnerable to everything + her light and dark magic attacks are low-damage. +1 light and dark magic is definitely not a lot, but it makes her game a bit more interesting, and it stops her from crying every time someone with more than 3 phys def shows up.
    IBO-K9's Self-Destruct should do 10 pure damage to benched chars, regardless of type of attack, a.k.a. not be affected by their dark resistance. The way I see it, his self-destruct is a great move to seriously hurt a fresh new character and possibly kill a benched one that's been used already. However, nearly every character has some dark res, so it really isn't that scary. 10 solid damage would make it worth it - after all, I am losing a character for sure, might as well make it reasonable.
    Ring of Bravery seems lame, I can't think of any option where I would use it instead of any other item.
    Voss's nerf is good, since there are so many light magic users around she will probably get a lot of use, which means the DS had to be nerfed a little.
  10. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    Except this only really changes one matchup from the new cards (darla). Everybody else that's new is essentially the same, while weakening her old card matchups which were fine before. IMO that change was fixing something that wasn't even close to broken.
  11. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    What's your opinion on General's Insigna?
  12. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    Rumiko was overall buffed in terms of deck construction imo. Less hits fleeing, more cards that reward you for switching. It's really fun when your opponent knows you're switching into Oxbox but won't intercept anyway.
  13. angeldemonyo

    angeldemonyo New Member

    Ring of bravery can be used a "hits fleeing" for that last 2hp of that pesky voss/vial trying to escape.
  14. Drakir

    Drakir Member

    Actually, it is 3 damage. And it hits before attacks, even when you whiff an intercept. So it is pretty useful overall.
  15. angeldemonyo

    angeldemonyo New Member

    Does the ring of bravery screw over phylactery users?
  16. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Nah, Phylactery is like Death Mask. If it procs, you won't die for the rest of the turn.
  17. angeldemonyo

    angeldemonyo New Member

    The way I'm saying is like the turn after phylactery works. The next turn, the 3 damage would be done before the phylactery user can do anything right, making phylactery worse?
  18. Purechance

    Purechance Member

    (not in beta disclaimer :mad: so this is just based on what I have been reading)

    Example:

    cain with phyl has 10 hit points and is killed by opp during an attack, but the phyl procs.

    next round, opp tries and intercepts (or tries an attack) and ring of bravery does it damage BEFORE cain has a chance to do anything. (since the ring does damage before the attack phase). Cain dies and phyl doesn't save him a second time.

    Just another reason not to use the Phyl - not that it is heavily used right now. Actually I can not remember the last ranked game where I saw anyone using it.

    Hmmmm.... what if Phyl was changed to be like Grog but different. Phyl = 30% or maybe 40% chance to be resurrected with 20 or maybe 30 health when you die and no damage for the rest of the turn (only works once). Would that make it stronger or weaker then the current 30% chance 1 health unlimited use?
  19. x1372

    x1372 Active Member

    Here's my thoughts on the old characters who could use a buff and a few items.

    Amaya's better now, but I still think he/she should have a hits fleeing effect on shadow curse. Give it 1 damage if that's necessary to make it work. Ammy's got enough issues as is without having to worry about failing to debuff the opponent if they choose to switch and ruin ammy's good matchup.
    EDIT: Alternately, give it a seperate proc roll against each character, so that it has a chance to hit benched/incoming characters even when the opponent switches, current target is missed, or current opponent dodges (cloaked angelan).

    Phoebe still feels just a tad weak. I have a solution that wouldn't change ANY of her matchups, but would probably require significant programming time:
    ~Deafening crack: If the opponent switches out, the incoming character is hit by the move.

    Popo has taken a beating with the new characters and their light based attacks. The kid needs something to be able to keep his luck streaks going. I'd like either +2 light defense (total of 3) or have the innate dodge have a 20% chance of working on light attacks (still 25% on physical).

    I haven't tested the recent hits fleeing change (2.2.4), but it might have made Ambrosia's choke only 95% hits fleeing instead of the 100% it used to be. I'd prefer the 100% brought back (intentionally) if this is the case. She doesn't need two 1/20 chances to fail to finish them off.

    I feel like Marquis Le Morte is better now, but still could use some accuracy/proc rate buffs. I'd like him to have 100% accuracy/proc on teleport, blood burn, and VT if possible.

    As for items, I'm still unsure of the tiger's claw (the item name strongly implies something that deals damage), but the gem of souls is scary now. 30 energy might have been too much if anything, but I'd leave it where it is for now.
  20. Drakir

    Drakir Member

    The new Tiger's Claw is terrible. The only villager I'd even consider it before death mask is Juju, and he still has feather. Also it takes up valuable playing time...

    Latent Energies (B9's double rest damage) usually doesn't matter, but against monorangers, it is INCREDIBLY significant. It's like Lightning Arrow on steroids, and robots already have good items for dancing like energy core and z-phase. I suggest reducing the damage to 8. On another note, I feel the ability is better fit for Angelan, who is somewhat weak right now. Dunno what ability to give B9 then though.

    Now that Sadie's Demon Frenzy is more manageable, I think a cost decrease to 40 is worth considering. Alternatively some buff to nether vortex, that move never seem to get used. Whirlwind inherently works much better with Wei-Shan and it is cheaper as well.

    Agathe's Witch Curse is probably the best move in the game. I don't really advocate a damage nerf, but maybe cut down the speed just for good measure.

    Andromeda still deserves a speed increase for trueshot. At least 4, maybe even 6.

    Ranec Vest's support moves aren't good enough. The curse is the Ancestral Spirit of the new cards, and Ghostly touch is weak and unreliable. Increase duration on the former (maybe even to 5) and make the latter 100/100.


    Also, WHAT THE FUCK is up with all the new 99% moves? It never (essentially) causes you to alter your strategy, but sometimes causes completely arbitrary game swings. This isn't like stun procs, I'm talking about 50+ damage swings that don't happen but still empty your character of energy. Most of these cards don't even have 100% moves so it isn't even significant in endgames. It's just embarrassing.

    I think that's all for now.
  21. jmdt

    jmdt New Member

    Tiger claw is essentially a +2/+2/+2 armor so its not that bad.

    I agree that B9's innate should probably be changed. With the capicator, he will never be in a low energy situation and anything that hurts monorangers is a band idea. That innate would actually be a good idea on a monorange character instead. Angelan could also use a new innate or some buff to make her more viable.

    Sadie's Demon Frenzy could definately use a cost decrease. Energy quickly becomes an issue with her and shecould use a small buff. With her poor energy management, nether vortex is usually a bad idea. I'd like an energy decrease to 50 even if it meant lowering the energy. Or we could spice it up and change it to activating if the enemy switches far instead of close to make it different from Wei-Shan.

    If Agatha needs a nerf, I would look a different dirction from Witch curse. The move in itself is not overly powerful. Stacked it can be annoying, but that's her thing.

    I agree that Andromeda needs a buff. I'd like to see rain of arrows and true shot both bumped to 4. The Monorangers need some leg up.

    I agree that Ranec's Ghostly touch needs to be 100/100 or close to be viable, even if this means raising the cost to 25. The curse is worthless in its current form. 10 damage on a possible switch is laughable. I'd like to see 25-30 energy for 25 damage on switchins for three turns or something like that with more teeth to make it worth using. Even if it were free I'd be hard pressed to use it over another move or rest at 10 damage.

    I's also like to see a slight increase on Sextant from 50% -> 60-65%. It just doesn't seem to be reliable enough.

    With all the light attacks poor Popo gets destroyed pretty quickly. She needs a buff of some kind badly. I'd like to see something like poison dart 5 ->10, buff herbal preparations to 35% chance for 30 healing, and/or raise the herbal preparations poison from 3 -> 4 for four turn. I really like herbal preparations poison dart combo and wish this side of popo could get a slight buff. If this is out moving light defense to about 4 would alleviate a number of her new problems.

    Balthazar is bad, but I can't think of a way to make him more worthwhile. Maybe cannon splash damage 10 -> 15.
  22. Purechance

    Purechance Member

    ok some random thoughts here after playing quite a bit over the last week.

    Angelan - what about replacing her innate with "When she rests, she gets an automatic +30% additive cloak for that turn"? She is the covert operative after all - so it fits her overall theme. So you can rest and have a 30% cloak, or you can cloak turn 1 then rest turn 2 for 60% dodge chance (but then you lose your cloak and your special attack next round). This may give her some interesting mind games to play with opponents.

    B9 - his innate way too good against mono-rangers. Not sure what to do about it though.

    Le Chuck's Curse - it is or at least feels completely useless right now. How about changing it to 10 damage and -60 energy (after they switch in, they will get 20 energy back so it would actually net out to -40 energy to switch in). That would definitely make things interesting and might make the move actually useful. Plus possibly buffing his Ghost Touch, not sure about that.

    De Grey/anything using Witches Curse + B9/zphase + Weishan/flagon or bracers can be completely frustrating and extremely annoying (makes me want to quit the game annoying). Two of those decks facing each other would take eons to finish. Just an observation.

    Sextant - I personally like it as is. You never know if or when it will have an impact.

    Amaya - hits fleeing Shadow Curse fix is a definite must.
  23. Kataphrakt

    Kataphrakt New Member

    Also some random thoughts of me:

    B9 - like already said, his inniate ability is freaking effective against mono rangers, so i suggest to replace it (suggestion: B9 copies the inniate ability of the opponent (doesn't help andromeda, but it still might be good))

    B9 - Protect Family. Needs a nerf. Juju heals with 40 energy cost, 4 speed, and 25 healing, 1 turn cooldown. B9, 30 energy cost, 8 speed, 30 healing (in 5card 50) + debuff removing, without cooldown

    Suggestions:
    1.) 35 energy, 2-4 speed, heals only allies and not B9 himself
    2.) 45 energy, 2-4 speed

    Agathe de Grey - witch's curse. 25 energy instead of 20

    Eva Bovary - since she is complety light based i would like to see a higher light magic defend on her (6/7)

    Sadie Trudeau - like already said, she needs a decrease in the costs of her moves


    ITEMS:
    - Healing salve needs a buff (maybe you could add a +1 healing when the character is benched, so that you have a total of 2 (what makes it a crossover between remedy and vial))

    - Caltrops would maybe be better if it deals damage to the enemy who switches in. Or it should also work if you intercept the enemy, so that he gets intercepting+caltrops damage.

    - Valkyries Charm seems a bit week after the last nerf, sine its theme is giving speed, how about giving it additionally a protection from speed lowering effects?

    - Coffin Nails. Totally useless imo, since you don't gain any bonus in health. Damage reduction should be added back (only 20/25 % though)

    - Sigil of Heartache is just like caltrops. I would like to see it as defencive rather than offensive item: 10% chance, that you absorb the damage of a light or dark magic attack (maybe also 10% chance, that you don't get debuffed).
    If you're lucky this item can prevent you from a high damaging attack (every witch is either weak against dark or light magic, so this item is good on every witch). Since it absorbs the attacks, they can still proc, because of that a 10% chance to avoid every debuff could be handy, too
  24. PeteyC

    PeteyC New Member

    I think the issue you're noticing is that B9 can be played as a really, really, really low velocity character. This is not fun. My suggested change would be for protect family to not heal himself, so at least he isn't extending his own life while he's healing the bench. I've recommended that before, though, and a nerf to B9's hit points was a more popular solution. Personally, though, I would still like to see a protect family nerf.

    As for Agathe and Wei-Shan, they can also be low velocity characters, but I don't think they're quite as big a deal as B9. I'd hate to see Witch's Curse nerfed, if only because it's all that keeps Agathe from being bottom tier. Still, maybe if her other moves were improved a bit it would be okay to nerf it. Right now, her whole game revolves around Witch's Curse and switch out, or occasionally using Wild Broom Ride as a finisher.
  25. Purechance

    Purechance Member

    I would also add two other options:
    3) 30 energy speed 8, heal allies only
    4) 40 energy speed 8, 1 turn cooldown

    not sure B9 should copy other innates. Since he is the Environmental Control Bot, it seems like he should have the same innate as Juju (20 or 25% chance to remove debuffs and/or maybe a 10-30% chance to remove buffs from card in play) - This would work well with option 1 or 3 above to change his protect family. There are other cards with the same innates, why not B9 and Juju?

    Any combination of the following (possibly?):
    1) Increase energy to 25
    2) Decrease damage/healing to 4 per turn
    3) Decrease speed to 1


    Caltrops/Yellow Rock/Sigil - why not just add in no healing for 3 turns once damaged by the item?

    Coffin Nails - 75% damage redirection sounds plausible.

    Valk Charm - no speed debuffs sounds like a good idea and fits the flavor
  26. jmdt

    jmdt New Member

    I don't think protect family or healing decks are that big a problem. I like the low velocity game for a changeup. I've experimented with the agatha, B9, Wei Shan deck and it is good, but there are a number of hard counters in the game. Sophie prevents all healing of active and benched characters, hampering these guys pretty well. Also a null matrix/darla/pheobe can disable the capicitor which make the infihealing by B9 possible. Also a deck with strong hitters can usually override the damage that would be otherwise healed; you can only take so many nukes. If healing becomes popular in the Meta, there are counters.

    I like protect family in its current form. 35 maybe 40 energy could be in order. I'd rather keep the healing and weaken B9's other attacks so that he is not much of an offensive threat outside healing.
  27. jmdt

    jmdt New Member

    25 or even 30 energy would work, but changing the damage or speed teeters on making her a garbage character. Bestor's flame costs 30 for 4 and only has 1 range so 30 here is not too big a deal.
  28. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Finally, something considered.

    You guys also need to remember that B9 will not always have Z-Phase (so suggesting things like 40-45 energy is just crazy town), if he does have Z-Phase you can strategically rest instead of attacking to let his energy go down, and Protect Family is much less useful if you kill a teammate before B9 comes in. 35 energy would probably be okay, though.
  29. jmdt

    jmdt New Member

    Yeah moving protect family to 35 and witches curse to 25 are probably the prudent courses for those two as we discussed last night.

    I recant my statements on Sextant; I think 50% is a good place for this after ingesting it a bit more.

    I would like to see Sophie buffed a bit as her innate will be important to slow down healing decks if they become popular in the Meta. Ideally I'd like to see her with some light defense or all of hers chaged to light to her counter B9, but that probably will never happen. Her innate shuts down B9's healing, but she is weak to all his attacks and would not survive long in a direct brawl. I'd like for Consume glyph to be scrapped and replaced with a close range version of Ubuntu's Spiritual assistance, but that will likely not happen as Consume is a pretty unique attack.

    Without changing the character completely, the best buff I can think of is lowering the cost of Consome Glyph. The attack is for 45 damage and 9 healing for 60 energy which is kinda expensive i9n the first place, but when you factor in losing 1-3 turns of glyph or 8-24 damage its not as good as it looks. If the energy were lowered to 45 the attack would be more usable without allowing glyph -> get close -> consume glyph. It would give her the potential for more damage without becomming too powerful.
  30. PeteyC

    PeteyC New Member

    I disagree with the raise in energy cost of Protect Family from 30->35, because it doesn't address the core issue. The problem with protect family is not that it's too powerful, or that it lacks counters. The problem is, under the right circumstances it can be used to make games drag on for a long time. While some folks may appreciate a longer, slower game of Kongai I think that this is likely to frustrate and annoy many other people. The fact that B9 is also a great all around character who is likely to see a good bit of play in the meta makes it that much worse.

    I think the best solution is to leave Protect Family at 30 Energy and 8 speed, but stop it from affecting B9. If it feels too weak without its ability to extend B9's life, the healing could even be raised a bit, maybe to 12 or 13, or it could have its miss chance removed.
  31. Kataphrakt

    Kataphrakt New Member

    Something about the old cards:

    Rumiko - Rumi is sad :(. She gets destroyed by many cards now. She asks for 2 light resistance to survive a bit longer.

    Yoshiro - Yoshi's 10% chance to dodge an intercept functions now, right? The Flash powder works multiplicative, so when he equips it he has a 14% chance to dodge an intercept. Suggestions how to change that?

    Andromeda - Rain of Arrows should get a hit rate increase 90% => 95%

    ASHI - every mono ranger has a small advantage in energy. Oni can equip the scroll to lower his energy costs, helene can regenerate energy from her sword slash, andro has her inniate. Only ashi hasn't an energy advantage. And ashi can do nothing on far range unlike helene or onimaru. I suggest to replace power swing (does anyone really use that?) with a move called "war scream" (she already looks like she would scream). I'm not sure though what it should do. Suggestions:
    - for the next 5 turns, every time when you attempt to change the range your moves cost 5 less energy for 2 turns (20 energy, 1 speed)
    - 50% chance to interrupt slower attacks and 50% chance that the enemy can't attack next round (30 energy, 3 speed)

    Helene - if you use sword slash and it procs you have 10 more energy then before. You would have the same effect if sword slash costs only 10 energy. I would suggest to change it from a 50 % chance that it regenerates 20 energy to a 50% chance that it only costs 10 energy. Would have the advantage that you could come close and use sword slash with 60 energy or that you don't lose so much energy when the enemy switches out (when you attacked with sword slash)

    Zina - Mistress command is supposed to have a chance to proc on every opponent, right? i have tested it a bit and it doesn't seem to work =/. Can someone confirm that?

    Ambrosia - Higher hit rate for Vamp kiss (95% or even 100%)

    Marquis Le Morte - Since we have so much light magic attacks now (also deck hitting), hit points 60 => 65?
  32. angeldemonyo

    angeldemonyo New Member

    For yoshiro it would become:
    10% + .4*90% or 46% to dodge intercepts I think.
  33. x1372

    x1372 Active Member

    These are in addition to my notes from the last time I posted in this thread.

    ---

    While I think B9 is still a bit too good, its not necessarily because of protect family.

    It's because he has both protect family AND some seriously threatening attacks to anyone with low/no light resistance. Access to "more energy than I'll ever need" items is only icing on the cake for that. He can deal significant damage, he can heal his team, and when he needs something swingy he's got a chance for stun or accuracy debuffing.

    I'd like to see protect family cost 35 energy (still no cooldown) and Laser blast dropped to 9x4. At 9x5 BLB can two-shot 22 different characters, which is way too much for a character that's literally a healbot. At 9x4 he still has some two-shots anyway (including sophie, who really needs to be able to survive against him since her innate is supposed to counter his healing ability... give her 1 light defense maybe?)

    ---

    I do think andromeda could use a bit more. +1 speed on trueshot and rain of arrows would be a nice start, as would an accuracy bump on RoA.

    ---

    The current ornamental egg glitch NEEDS to be fixed. +50% proc instead of x150% in insane, to put it mildly. Its a bad sign when someone is willing to let rapid-fire-pistol be ABSORBED because its a relatively cheap SPEED 9 80% INTERRUPT. Add in balty and darla getting 75% stuns and Starbuck's 100% interrupt tackle... no testing can be done about the balance of that item until its fixed.

    ---

    Ranec feels a bit weak right now. Maybe I'm just using him wrong, but I think two-sword slash could handle being 19x2 or 20x2.

    ---

    Rathborne's glitches need resolving before he's playable/testable.

    ---

    The a66 feels kinda weak at only 4. Maybe make it work at 10 or less energy, so that the robots can get its low effect while still having SOMETHING available (angelan has no 25 or lower energy attacks).

    ---

    I still think the healing salve is a smidgen weak. 1 healing in or out of battle could work, +3 HP on rest could work, resting has a 30% chance to cure a debuff could work, but SOMETHING.

    ---

    Cursed Dabloons still could use a bit more. I'd like to see 2 HP 2 energy instead of the current 1-2.

    ---

    Have people given serious testing to the elemental prism? I still can't tell if its good or bad yet, haven't had any decks that really take advantage of it.

    ---

    I'd still like the tarot card to have a small effect on females. I'm thinking 20% acc debuff to males, 5% acc debuff to females, 0% acc debuff to popo.
  34. PeteyC

    PeteyC New Member

    I don't think Kongai needs, or benefits from, a healbot. That being said, if the design intent for B9 really is to make him a healbot, I agree that his offense should be less intimidating.

    I agree. Right now she gets slaughtered by Ox, since she pretty much needs to hope that he misses with Warhammer Ram or she can't get much of anything off.

    I haven't tested him much yet, but he feels a little weak to me as well. I think maybe buffing his other moves (especially Le Chuck's Curse) is the way to go, though.

    I agree. It was too strong at 10 damage, but is too weak at 4. What if we up it to 5 damage in addition to making it trigger at 10 or less energy?

    I support anything that makes it not just a weaker Herbal Remedy.

    Sure, though I don't think it's terrible as is.

    I've used it quite a bit on Rathbone (before I got tired of all his bugs). It's okay. Screws up some opponents, and does nothing against others. I'd say its biggest problem is just that its usefulness depends more on your opponent's deck than on yours. If you wanted to make it a bit better and a bit less dependent on your opponent's deck, we could try giving it a 50% chance to deal damage to both light and dark attacks, or even just have it always deal damage to light and dark attacks but lower the damage dealt by a bit.

    The other thing I'd appreciate seeing changed about it is that the witches shouldn't be able to heal themselves off of it when using Periapt of Proof Against Everything.

    I don't really think this is necessary, but I don't object to it either. This would have the advantage of making it an item that's slightly less dependent on your opponent's deck, but might interfere a bit with flavor.

    ****

    As far as the bugs with Rath and the Egg go, I also hope to see them fixed soon, as I have begun hating seeing either of those two pop up in a game.
  35. jmdt

    jmdt New Member

    Sirlin posted the new changes

    v2.2.5 (not playable yet)
    11/4/09

    *Ranec Vest, *something
    *Balthazar, Shot-put stun chance up 25% -> 30%

    *Wei-shan, innate's healing down 7 -> 3

    *Angelan Series D, Cloak energy down 35->30
    *B9, Protect Family (heal) now has 1-turn cooldown
    *IBO-K9, Self-destruct speed up 2 -> 5
    *IBO-K9, Self-descruct now happens but deals zero damage to the enemy team if you choose it when the enemy switches

    *Agathe, Witch's Curse energy cost up 20 -> 25
    *Sophie, Consume Glyph energy cost down 60 -> 50
    *Sophie, Shadow Word: Pain now can't be removed.
    *Sadie, both demon moves cost 5 less energy?

    *A66 Capacitor, now triggers when you have 10 or less energy rather than 5 or less energy

    I like these changes. Everyone that needs a major buff or nerf is getting worked on.

    Nerfed:
    *Agathe - 25 will prevent perpetual curse spamming. It may still need to go to 30 but we'll have to see how it plays out.
    * B9 - the cooldown on healing is probably the best way to speed up games without nerfing the character too bad.
    * Wei Shan - at +3 on healing will be much more managable for low damage characters.

    Buffed:
    * Sophie - Consume to 50 makes the move useful after a get close and makes up for the fact that you loose glyph damage to use it. This gives her a much better chance 1 v 1 if she is the last character. Unremovable shadow world actually gives sophie a chance against some characters at far (Wei Shan, Juju, Margo).
    * Sadie - -5 to the demon moves will help her energy curve substantially, allowing 4 frenzy at any range instead of 3, or 2 demon claws after a get close instead of 1. She may be decent again.
    * Angelan - 30 cloak helps allowing three cloaks and surprise attack, but she may still need something else on one of her other moves. I'd like to see the interrupt on wave motion go to 50-66% still. Also with cloak at 30 energy, her innate becomes even less useful, what about -10 for 2 or scrap it all together. An innate like ranec's or eva's would make sense with the covert operative bit.
    * IBO-K9 - speed boost on self destruct helps him, but he still feels weak overall. Then again yelp -> self destruct -> gorbax has scary potential. I will need to test him a bit more to tell.
    * Balthazar - needed something small without making him a monster and extra stun probably helps this without making his core platform better.
    * Ranec - I really hope ghostly touch is buffed to 100% proc. With dabloons that would make him a good energy zapper. I like the le chuck's curse concept but wish it were stronger, especially since its stackable. If an enemy is going to die due to poison, whatever, put in ranec and spam curse to harm the next opponent when they come in. Now the max is 30 damage with 3. I'd like to see it moved to 15 energy 15 damage or last 4 turns at 10.
  36. Kataphrakt

    Kataphrakt New Member

    I would also like to see eva with more light defence since she is completely light magic based, and i think that kiss could become 30 energy instead of 35
  37. Drakir

    Drakir Member

    I miss the high critrate on Searing Touch that she used to have. Although it was probably a mistake it was a really fun move to use and gave her a threat similar to acid splash at close, now she seems to be all about HoH. Buffing the proc on the innate would also be nice.
  38. PeteyC

    PeteyC New Member

    I like the idea of buffing Le Chuck and/or Ghostly Touch. For Le Chuck's, a damage raise could be in order. For Ghostly Touch I'm against a proc raise, since that would make Egg all but useless for Ranec. If anything, I think a less reliable but more powerful proc is in order.

    Egg and Sextant will both be great items for him with this change. A 15 energy stun with 45% proc chance is just nasty. I'm almost worried that the stun could be too powerful with this change, but I'm happy to test it.

    Seems fine. I don't even think it needs to go down this far, but I think he'll be fine with only 3 healing.

    Seems good

    B9 will still be a monster at range dancing, but I'll be happy to test this and see how much of a difference it makes.

    Does this mean we aren't going to get a self-destruct that goes off even if K9 dies? Anyway, good changes but like Kataphrakt I would like to see self-destruct do splash damage to the fleeing enemy.

    Edit: Originally attributed splash idea to incorrect person

    I think a bigger nerf to Witch's Curse, followed by a buff to her Broom Strike, and maybe a cheaper cost for Mark of the Witch is in order. That being said, I could easily be wrong, so I see no issue in testing out this minor change first.

    Seem like good changes. From a design standpoint I wish that there weren't so many unremovable debuffs, since rule exceptions can confuse new players. From a balance standpoint, however, this seems good.

    I think this will make Sadie more playable again. I'd also consider a 5 point energy reduction to Nether Vortex, but maybe that will be too much.

    I like this. Would also like to see damage increase from 4->5, but maybe this will be enough.

    The one character who I really think needs a change and who isn't represented here is Andromeda. I'd like to see Rain of Arrows Speed 3->4 and True Shot Speed 2->3. My reasoning is that Andro is supposed to be an anti-tank character, but right now one of the strongest tanks, Oxbox, demolishes her. His Warhammer Ram outspeeds her attacks and soft interrupts them. With Rain of Arrows bumped up she'd at least have a paltry attack against him when not valked. With True Shot bumped up she'd actually have a decent attack against him when she is valked.
  39. Kataphrakt

    Kataphrakt New Member

    The green parts are my statements xD

    Something other: why is psycho crusher light magic? I think it would fit better to him as ghost pirate if it would be dark magic
  40. PeteyC

    PeteyC New Member

    My bad, fixed in my post.

    Making it light magic allows Andro to interrupt it, and Yoshi and Auger to reflect it.
  41. Purechance

    Purechance Member

    Just tossing out some random unsolicited ideas for Angelan's innate.

    Angelan Distortion Field Innate: 50% chance for bench cards to avoid damage while Angelan is in play. (my idea for B9 that jmdt thought might work for Angelan)

    Angelan Sneak Attack: 25% chance for Angelan to deal 7 damage to a benched character on the other team.
  42. Kataphrakt

    Kataphrakt New Member

    Some other thoughts (since sirlin wants for the robots a energy theme i only include inniate abilities which are related to energy):

    - when she intercepts the enemy loses 40 energy

    - 20% chance to absorb the damage of a light magic attack and to gain additional 20 energy (for people who think its to strong: if you compare it to elusive feather, it has a 25% chance to dodge, what means that it doesn't have a chnace to proc, but if she absorbs the attack it can still proc)

    My favourite suggestion:
    - She absorbes 25 from enemies who switch in (means enemy loses 25 and she gains 25 energy). => people will maybe switch out to avoid her surprise attack. This way she gets atleast a bit energy back to do cloak or another attack, and the enemy can't do attacks like ToD/Chi Blast (higashi)
  43. Drakir

    Drakir Member

    This is awesome.
  44. jmdt

    jmdt New Member

    I like your favorite suggestion
  45. TheElemental

    TheElemental New Member

    Great suggestion! Keeps the robot energy theme, fits perfectly with the character, buffs Angelan who needs some buffing anyway, and makes Cloak+surprise attack slightly more viable.
    Thumbs up for that one.
  46. Kataphrakt

    Kataphrakt New Member

    Ty for the nice feedback :D

    I have thought about B9's inniate ability, and i would now also have a suggestion for him (which would fit the environmental controller thing and the energy thing):
    When B9 dies, the energy of all enemies is reduced to zero

    (=> in the round after B9's death the cards have 20 energy)

    if it's too strong, maybe -50 energy for every enemy
  47. TheMadKing

    TheMadKing Member

    MR-V1N: Depressive mood needs to be either 90 or 100% proc, maybe a bit less on the drop to compensate. Move is just trash right now.

    K9: Uplifting Yelp duration +1 turn? Makes it so he's less pressured to switch out immediately.
  48. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Marvin with 100% procs would be easy top tier. K9, the point is that while the opponent is panicking and hitting the intercept button, you are attacking them. An extra turn of that would be ridiculous.
  49. Drakir

    Drakir Member

    Also, if the opponent is intercepting you can suicide him for a pretty big nuke and still get to "switch out".
  50. Purechance

    Purechance Member

    I think that K9 is ok as is. The faster self destruct is nice, but Yelp +1 turn would be too much imo.

    It would be too hard to put this into place, but making self destruct dual range would be nice with 50% damage and no bench damage at far.


    More random thoughts - With the Sextant and Tafi preventing switching, it would be cool to see a character who had a 'attack' option that allowed you to switch out or a non-nuke hit forcing the opposition to change.

    Dimension Shift - 5 speed 40 energy 5 dark damage (far or close) 100% hit 90% proc - switch out with random team member.

    Teleport Homing Dart - 4 speed 40 energy 15 dark damage (far or close) 95% hit 80% proc - knock opponent out of play.

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