Discussion in 'General Chit-chat' started by Beezel, May 29, 2009.
Amazing netcode? 10/10, will buy. Thanks for the heads-up!
I liked Blicen's comment that the netcode is "really great for a non-SF HD Remix game."
What he meant by that is that between games, the voice chat usually cuts out or becomes staticy. Also, even in a room with just two people where I play the same opponent repeatedly, every game starts with "synchronizing..." usually with a slowdown at the start. BUT, aside from that, the part where you are actually playing the game, the netcode seemed pretty good to me. Better than most other things out there (looking at you, input-delay-soul-calibur).
I've noticed that someone who has a "Red connection" and some "Yellow Connections" have really annoying slowdowns at the beginning (before the match starts.)
But it seems (to me) the better connection you have with the player, the less time the game takes to synchronize and slowdown. As far as your assertations about the game lobbies, I haven't played them much. I hate the fact you can't join a lobby if a game is in progress too.
but as far as when it comes to the fighting part... Controls are responsive and solid. And to me, that's all that *really* matters. I'll take staticy mics and not being able to join game lobbies with fights in progress for responsive controls in-game.
I've found the netcode to be quite good actually, wish my 360 hadn't rrod'd yesterday.
BLAZBLUE BLITCHES! BLEST BLANG!
The netcode is awesome in my opinion. I had a few bad games, but after the update, I get them very rarely.
Only one ragequit. Sometimes the ping/input delay is crazy huge, but I just respect>quit.
Honestly, in what counts the most, BB outdoes HDR by a bit, but BB is the game with bigger budget and later date, and HDR is perfectly fine.
The only thing wrong with BB in my eyes is that you have to play BB. If it was any other fighter, I'd be awestruck, but this effort was used on a game I don't like at all.
Game seems awesome to me.
thats cause it is awesome
Jumping straight to online feels weird and a bit sluggish on average after playing offline matches with my friends or spending some quality time trying to perfect my combos in training mode. Because of that I now now put "Same Area Only" while searching for ranked games. I actually enjoy HDR's online lobbies and playing east coast people on my friends list more when it comes to a quality online experience with a fighting game.
BB is pretty meh so far. I'm really, really trying to like this game. At the end of most games I feel like I just got done with a button mashing marathon and chasing the top 3 tiers around the screen is not really that fun at all because the matches are long. It's different then other fighting games for sure...
That's personally why I like it. What other game can you zone with Bees? Arakune is just so weird I can't help but like him. His zoning game is pretty unique.
More like the netcode is amazing for a game coming out of a country that's only ten square miles with one of the best internet infrastructures in the world.
Input delay is a no no for any fighting game, and the input delay here is very noticeable even IF you are playing someone with a good connection.
I played someone who lives 30 minutes from me and I could still notice it. While its a pretty impressive netcode by FAR from any other fighting game I've seen, I'm going to have to say HDR still has the best out there.
I've already sunk over 25 hours of gameplay exclusively to online play only. I've sunk HUNDREDS into SFIV online play, anyone that takes SFIV seriously doesn't even play that game online because the transition from online to offline is enough to jack anyone at any level of play up.
BlazBlue has some combos that require some pretty strict timing also, while not as dependent on combos like SFIVs "1 frame links", its still enough to make me not want to play unless I play my friends almost exclusively.
On the flipside, they did a pretty damn good job with everything else. Just the fact that it DOES use a netcode with input lag through, and the lag / synchronizing every match is enough to annoy me.
I play offline almost exclusively for a lot of things anyway now, HDR is the only game that I would consider playing online as a "viable option". BBs netcode for "casual" fun is impressive though. SCIV's online netcode is great for "casual" fun, except its even better there because you can mash out every combo you'd ever want in that game and get it online for the most part. Too bad its pretty hard to parry anything in that game in an online environment.
Teching throws with input lag is simply a nightmare in BB online, the active frames for teching a throw get cut down dramatically thanks to input delay. You can mash throw tech in SFIV like no tomarrow, but in BB if you mash I guarantee you that you will never tech a throw in that game. This is just one things that input lag can influence heavily in online play.
"But its not noticeable"
Maybe not to a lot of people, but to anyone thats put in a good chunk of time to fighting games it is pretty -noticeable-. Thats just my 2 cents.
EDIT: I think Amps post above mine says it best.
Actually SF4 and BB online are still great tools to improve if you try to play with the best latency. Maybe not so much with BB compared to SF4 because the speed of both games are from turtle to a.d.d style gameplay plus the roster size. Learning matchups (like learning how to fight Gens, Cammy's, Goukens etc.) and different play styles outside of your city and local tournaments hold some value when you finally do play them offline. I know for a fact because there is like 1 very good Gen player in my city that goes to SF4 tournaments and if it wasn't for online I would have no clue how to fight him when I first faced him at a local tournament. Lots of top SF4 players use both to their advantage and I can name quite a few.
In the end I do feel like HDR has a better online experience then BB & SF4 combined despite the strobe light effect when it lags.
You mean "because of."
I mean GGPO > HDR.
I can understand using online because the local competition in some areas may suck, thats fine. There are a lot of things though you will only be able to perfect offline though, and lets face it SFIV online is garbage. Knowledge is very important for anyone who wants to succeed in tournament play, online can be a good tool to develop strats but thats about it. Watching videos helps greatly too. One of the best Ryu players here in the midwest watches videos almost for just about 99% of his knowledge, and hes been doing some amazing things here (we call him Daigo Jr.. ha...) But for the most part when it boils down to knocking people out of the brackets its generally the people who have the knowledge and the execution that will always win. Some of the best players here don't even touch online, simply due to the fact none of them need to / or want to.
The local scene here is actually very big, and because it is that way I generally have a bad taste for online play because I can get good fights in locally (we even had a player place 3rd here at Evo North)
While the online certainly isnt obsolete in SFIV, it still has much to be desired. Maybe they'll get it next time right?
I played against some guy I think was an American yesterday, with a terrible bar, on wireless, on PS3.
Didn't notice any lag after gorilla fate is turning.
THIS SAID I can't actually enter a bunch of games. But the ones I can I don't really lag on. Very pleasant.
Also, Taokaka is currently the only character I can handle but I have this retarded problem where I can only 236236D from one side...if I try it on the left the input reader shows me something like 23636 and I get some stupid dash. Especially if I'm trying to cancel it off 6B. At least I have the drive loops semi-down.
Most definitely and I hope they get it right next time.
The reason you can't mash throw escape in BB is that the game won't let you do it, not because of input delay.
So it may not be the netcode.
I think that's what he was saying. You can't time it correctly because of the lag, and you can't mash out of it if you see it coming because the game prevents you from making more than one attempt. So you're screwed anyway. I guess that addresses the "throws are weak" complaint, though, ha.
I haven't noticed much input delay in Blazblue, even when playing people with red bars so I don't know?
I've been able to tech plenty of throws - Combo throws, Regular throws, etc. out of about 250 games I've played so far, I've had 2 disconnects.
I agree about not being able to join games in ranked or otherwise, and that can be frustrating at times, but SF4 suffers the same thing, and that was the least of SF4's online problems.
Do you ever play offline much? Play a red bar match after you spend a lot of time offline. The first thing I noticed is dashing is delayed, combos didn't flow or feel the same online, coming from an hour of training mode or playing offline matches with friends. And it's not just red bars either. The problem isn't whether or not you can still combo, tech or play the game ; it's about how different the game is online compared to offline play. When judging online play for a fighting game from an offline tournament type of player perspective, that's what you look for when deciding if the netcode is garbage or not. The difference is worst then HDR (the benchmark for consoles) and from my experience at least, it can be just as bad as SF4 with random slowdown spikes and constant input delay. On a good note, BB is good enough for me at least when playing people with a good connection but the distance is quite limited compared to GGPO or HDR where I feel sure about playing someone on the other side of the globe or someone on the other side of the U.S coast.
But anyways, BB netcode = dissapointment because it has input delay. It automatically loses when it comes to having the best fight game netcode on console. Playing people from Japan is garbage (another dissapointment). It feels like another game and like a slug.
Just so you all know, mashing out of throws simply doesn't work. If you "tech" a throw too early a red x appears over the exclamation point and the tech fails. Time your techs carefully people.
So what's the general consensus? I haven't played it yet, but it looks worthy of a rental, though I don't have the cash to buy it ATM.
Maybe that's the thing. I never expected to play people from across the globe after my experience at like 40% speed trying to play SWR against Singaporeans or Garcia.
It runs fine against Britons, continentals and AFAICT east coast Americans. I didn't know GGPO or HDR were that good worldwide so I guess by comparison it probably is pretty bad. Shame.
Milk: the consensus seems to be that it's either awesome, or acceptable, at the very least. I don't think many people have said it's horrible yet, if anyone.
overall people seem to think it's a pretty good game
some are split over the net-code
some are split over whether they think 2-button throws was a good idea or not
Best thing to do is to rent it and form your own opinion on the matter
I only played Blicen really, but the netcode seemed pretty good overall to me. I'd say that's a plus to the game. And I thought it was impossible to have something I'd hate more than 2-button throws, but 7+ frame startup throws seem a lot worse than the 2-button part, even.
If it makes you feel any better, Supposedly, Tager's Command throws are only techable if you combo into them.
I don't know though, I'm not a Tager player. But that's what I've heard, and it could be wrong. Something to test I s'pose.
True, as far as I know, and there is also no throw escape on counter-hit either. Throws are still harder to land though.
Throws aren't meant to be the way you vision throws. Besides, there are good effective overheads and other things to keep you from hiding in crouch block the whole time. Also, I think most jabs are in the 4-5f range, so a throw is something you do on advantage to get better damage?
You could call it kinda Tekkenish, where the basis of the game is mid/low not so much attack/throw.
All command throws - Noel's, Bang's, Tager's, not sure if there are others but probably the same for them (Ragna's mada owari ja ne zo?) - have no visible tech window without stun of some kind interfering.
This game needs to friggin come out in Europe so I have competition at decent times of the day when Americans are asleep, though. Good thing for region-free such that I can play at all.
Throws seem to be used all the time and are very effective. The nature of the game allows their use even when objectively the numbers make them seem bad.
Arakunes' alpha counter is a throw. :)
you can also go into super from arakune's throw for good damage.
You can also do an airthrow in a combo, and even if they tech it, your sister's unblockable hit will restart the combo... unless they're bang, ragna, or rachel (I think). I know Rachel can do it because if she does it crashes the arcade version, so she's asked not to do that in arcades.
So I haven't played BlazBlue at all yet, but about BlazBlue's throws that are totally different than what we're used to with their slow startup and different opportunities and follow-ups, I read this quote somewhere on the internet, and I liked its goal-oriented approach. It talks about a different game and is within a different context (an actual strategy thread instead of a general game design forum) but I think it's still relevant if we substitute "2 frames less recovery on something" with "5 frames more startup on something" and the like:
Come on thelo, apples and oranges. In one case, it's recovery on *one* move being changed so that on block, it's even frames usually. You can mixup after that one move on block with flame kick or throw or chicken wing. It's complaining about a non-problem.
This is talking about ALL throws in the game being the weakest of weaksauce ever. (And, incidentally, the change itself solved a non-problem from ggxx, where throws were completely fine.) Can a game "work" with super weaksauce throws? I guess. That doesn't make it a good idea or fun at all. What it does is favor jab, jab, jabby gameplay, the exact type of thing that's terrible in CvS2.
Your post uses an example where the change makes sense as, seemingly, an excuse for all changes that make no sense and that are terrible. You could say the same things in your post about making throws 4-button or jump 2-button. "Hey guys, just try to win with these 4-button jumps." But some ideas really are bad, like 7+ frame startup throws with 13 frame reversal windows that let you tech for 0 damage.
Actually, I have some questions about these throw techs. I'm not even trying to make a point, just wondering the facts.
1) I am in blockstun and expect a throw so I enter the throw tech command, then no other commands (I just walk away from the game). You didn't throw me yet though (as of the moment I did the tech) so I'm still just in blockstun. It turns out that your throw lands on me slightly after I entered the tech. Is it true that if your throw lands 1 - 11 frames after my tech that I will still get the tech? I think the answer is yes.
2) Similar situation to above, but this time your throw comes even later than 11 frames after I entered my tech. I think there is some cooldown period where I cannot enter more throw escapes and my 11 frame throw protection runs out. So if you throw me on frames 12 - ??? then I cannot tech even if I enter a second throw escape. How long is this cooldown (beyond my 11 frames of throw invuln) where I can temporarily not tech throws at all?
3) You throw me and I now have 13 frames after the fact to enter my throw escape. During this window, my actual input is to first press and release the A button (which does nothing here), then I enter the throw escape command, still within 13 frames. Do I get the throw escape, or did pressing the A button trigger the "you can't mash out of throws" feature?
I don't have the data for the other two questions (although I'm pretty sure #1 is no. That's just from anecdotal experience and not from any data. I've hit the throw command in what felt like less than 10 frames before I was thrown and I did not get the tech) but I can answer #3, and the answer is no. Hitting any buttons but B+C together will not trigger the "no mashing" feature.
Maybe it's because I main Arakune, who has a relatively fast throw (I believe?), but throws seem really really powerful in this game. I very often land throws after a dive combo by waiting next to them when the tech window opens and mixing up his forward+C overhead (it moves him vertically making him immune to throws and most, if not all, jabs) and throws. It's really effective as if they are waiting for the throw and attempt to tech it on prediction they get nailed by the forward+C natural combo for huge damage, and if I catch them blocking waiting for the forward+C and throw them, it leads to enormous damage with throw into super.
It's not uncommon at all for me to land 2 unteched throws per round. I sincerely don't understand the issue with throws. Am I just not playing at a high enough level to understand how weak they are or are you against them on principle? If you are against them on principle it seems like a silly principle to have.
sirlin, it seems like you are trying to solve for the genre...as if there is only a SINGLE solution to all fighting games.
if you had instant throws in BB, throws would become overly powerful (because there is NO way to tech out of a counter throw so you take full damage). throws would trump everything.
the idea with the tech window is that if you see it coming, you can still definitely tech out and not be punished...but if you DONT see it coming, 13 frames is not long enough to notice it and respond. even amazing reflexes wont save you if you dont expect it. better yomi wins. thats good.
in a combo, its twice as long so that it is TWICE as easy to get out which means you are less like to want to throw in a combo...i mean hell, combo into throw and then combo out of it? and throws arent prorated too. so now, near the end of a long combo, you have reason to attempt a combo throw, but its also a chance for them to get out. if the tech window on that was too small, it would be very easy to abuse. they WANT throwing in combo to be risky, but worth it if you are successful (you can combo out of throws).
honestly, youve made me think about it enough to convince me its a better system. the system is designed so that the person who is one layer deeper in the yomi will always have the game in his favor.
you say throws are weak sauce now. why are they weak sauce? they fit their roll just like they do in yomi...bait a guard, throw, combo.
note: im not saying 2 button throws is ideal. i still prefer 1 dedicated button throws. also, sf2 has 2 button throws...direction + key. 2 inputs. you can just as easily replace "forward" with "backward" as you can with "C."
First you said that 0 frame startup throws would be way too powerful. They already are in guilty gear and they are fine. "But you can do combos after throws in BB." Yeah I know, and you can in ggxx too. It's already been shown to be not at all too powerful. I'm not aware of anything in BB that would change this. Potemkin can combo into his ground-to-air grab after a normal throw which leads to an insane loop that's really hard to get out of.
Next, you are asking why throws are weaksauce. 7+ frame startup is inherently weaksacue. They get beat out by all sorts of things that would never beat them in ggxx or SF. (Now you say, "different isn't bad." Then I say "we weren't discussing better or worse design just then, we were discussing why throws are less powerful. 7 frames of startup is almost absurdly less powerful even if throws couldn't be teched at all.) Next, throw tech means throws do 0 damage (not true in ST or gg's before AC went off the rails). Teching for 0 is weaksauce and huge startup is weaksauce. So compared to other games with instant throws you can't tech for zero damage, it should be really obvious why these throws are weaker. Again, not talking about game design ideals here, only responding to they "are they really weaker?" vibe. Yes they are really weaker, by a lot.
Banewolf: regarding question 3, ok. Regarding question 1, I still think the answer is yes (though I'm not certain).
throws still fit their role perfectly. they throw blocks. thats what they do. its what they are supposed to do. weak sauce compared to old throws isnt relevant. they still do their job flawless and for that, are not weaker. its beginning to sound like you want to judge them based on something that isnt their job (their ability to beat throws).
if you anticipate the other players move (throw) and thus tech out, why should you still take damage? you won the yomi match up for that moment. why are you being punished?
sirlin, when you press and hold a key, it repeats for 5 frames. if you pressed the tech keys while you were in hit stun, and they grabbed you with in those first 5 frames, it would instant tech. i cant confirm, but that certainly makes sense to me
This seeems like theory fighter.
Whatever the numbers say, throws are extremely powerful in this game. They do insane damage (much more than in GG in the vast majority of instances) and because pressure strings are very strong ( again, moreso than GG) you can trick people in to blocking easily and then throw them.
You said that throws can be easily jabbed out of.
That only means that you can only throw people when they're blocking.
Now, I love the throw system in SF2 but this does not seem like a game breaking issue in BB by any means. Throws are extremely strong and can only be landed when your opponent is blocking, seems fine to me. Whatever the frame data contends is inconsequential.
That's not so much yomi as it is reaction. I could block all day, then just watch for the throw (which is even marked with a giant exclamation point in the game!), then react with B+C within 13 frames (a little over 2/10 of a second), which is reasonably achievable for fighting game players. No mind games, just reflexes.
Seems as though the best way to break through defenses in BB is to do high-low mixups, or do so much pressure that it crushes their guard.
You will get the tech. A popular version of this is Barrier guarding and buffering throw escape so you become essentially invincible for those frames. The downside is if the opponent throws immediately after the tech window, the throw is inescapable. Considering the damage throws and after-combos / supers do in this game, it's good not to abuse this.
I believe it's another 13 frame window, but i'm not 100% and none of the system guides released so far have the data.
That's fine. You'll only screw your tech over if you tech twice (so B + C twice) in the same window.
Also just a general note, a counter-throw is untechable. Throws may get beat out by a lot, but if tag a laggy attack you will get the throw regardless. Command throws are untechable if the opponent is in a neutral state.
Good answers Artowis.
Reacting to a green throw is almost impossible.
Reacting to a purple throw is probably pretty easy... but I can't do it...
I can react to purple throws, so I think it's safe to say that it's really easy.
That said, I still got destroyed yesterday by a Jin who just iced me, then either purple threw or wolf-iced again as I mashed out. I have no idea how to beat that on Taokaka either since half the time when I was mashing out I was on a "forward" when I got out so not blocking. Also I think wolfhead is safe on block.
when you're frozen the only inputs that matter are 4 and 6. A, B or C don't do anything for that. If you're anticapting a purple throw just wait for it if you're afraid of getting caught with your pants down on the shakeout when you're frozen. The thing about Tao is that her 3 forward crouch walk is so low that it goes under a LOT of stuff that would normally hit most of the cast. It ducks ground level icecar, the forward punch on hells fang most projectiles. And I DO believe that it ducks under the wolf head at a certain distance. I haven't tested it yet.
But then again, I play Ragna, Jin really isn't an issue for me since the range of my normals beats the range of most of his normals and that allows me to follow up into whatever to keep pressure on him. I just have to watch out for when he starts to mash C to get me off of him so I can barrier the first couple of hits to put him at a safe enough distance to make him eat a hells fang followed by more pressure.
About 1 button throw vs 2 button throws, or zero startup etc. I believe (obviously) you can have good games with either depending on other factors of the games mechanics. Also what's wrong with "jab jab" gameplay? It's different I know but it offers layers of mind games.. I'll admit it looks stupid sometimes but in actual play there is a lot of things going on between the players.
I remember telling you guys SF4 throws aren't ->that<- weak, like so many people argue here because they have 3 frame startup, do around 10-20% damage, a whiff, and zero tech damage (most of the problem is crouch option selecting). About throw damage, around 10% would be Zangief who has the most vitality stats, and around 20% would be Seth who has the lowest vitality stats, would be the damage they take when they are thrown. I don't just look at the numbers and assume it's weak because in reality the threat of throwing is what makes throwing powerful. It's what you have to learn to use and respect to get anywhere in SF4 and I would assume in most fighting games.
About "jab, jab" gameplay, in SF4 face to face combat is all about block strings that are either "loose" to "tight", that either end up with:
-wait and bait attack/reversal then punish, or focus attack (up to level 3 unblockable)
- enough block push back to space out a properly setup crossup
- ambiguous walk/dash up throw attempt OR instead of a throw, do an attack that either leads into a combo or into another block string that that repeats the cycle of mind games.
With BB it's mostly the same minus the Focus Attacks. Good Jin players skull fuck other players with similar sequences of block strings and if he does land a throw it is major damage because he gets a free combo. The cycle can be vicious because BB is fast paced and it can be very ambiguous at times when players get creative but I'll admit I'm not sure how powerful throws really are at the highest of skill level during offline matches.
With SF4 the payoff is the opposite because most of the advantage is making your opponent to commiting a tech then punishing him with a combo. Guess wrong on a throw tech and you end up with a FADC Ultra or combo with or without ultra that takes up a huge chunk of your life. If you land a throw you get 10-20% damage and a guaranteed setup because your opponent cannot quick recovery after being thrown. If you fail you get a throw tech for zero damage BUT you gain a lot of meter from block strings alone allowing you to use EX moves, Supers and FADC/Ultras. With all that said, crouch option selecting is pretty damn gay and caters way too much for certain turtle characters. At least put throw softening on crouch techers or just remove crouch teching.. if they have to commit to a standing tech it will make defense less retarded at times.
As for BB, throws seem strong enough for me. You can blame Tager for being garbage tier because his throws suck or you can just blame all other factors too.
I never really thought about that.
I would think designing a fighting game with two buttons throws or a dedicated throw button makes running into overlapping issues during the development process a lot less common and for the player who plays the game. What if you wanted players the freedom to buffer forward or back motions and use a certain normal attack without the fear of accidental clumsy throws? Or you want a 6B attack variation up close in your block string but instead you throw on accident because that button is also used for throwing? Also I think developers could expand the idea of kara throws with different properties compared to regular throws.
Also I like throw whiff animations. It makes the game more complex and adds more risk to throw mashers or people who guess wrong. At least in SF4, There are ways to make your opponent commit to a throw tech and whiff so you can punish while dancing outside of their throw range on wake up . In BB I heard there are nifty tricks with Noels throw whiff animation.
I had this same problem the first day of BB, but you just have to stop mashing. Mashing is actually preventing you from teching it. I think it's pretty reasonable to assume you can react to a purple throw (especially when you expect it after being iced), as the window to tech is fairly huge, and the reason you aren't successfully teching is because you are trying to throw escape too soon (on prediction) and the anti-mash feature is disabling your tech. You just have to be patient and wait for the exclamation points and react to them.
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