Blue banner blues.

Discussion in 'Puzzle-Strike: Bag of Chips' started by Eji1700, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Ive seen viva talk about this quite a bit,and I think it's something that might warrant its own topic. As it stands I feel blues are a little meh. Most are situational(which hurts those who rely on blue arrows......ok mostly just Gloria),and some strike me as terrible, even with recent changes.

    Some opinions(both flavor and balance)-
    Improv is awesome
    Thinking ahead is terrible, partly because it's an ender.
    Blues are good leads to really cool interactions and creative plays, but it's hampered by the weak nature of the rest of the blues.
    Really annoying is certainly good,but with just a scratch in existence I wish for a one cost pure blue.
    Ebb and flow is great
    The only blue to black washer I can think of is on onimaru
    I can't think of any ways to wash blue otherwise(no dashing strike like chipp)

    Various ideas(more later since I cant check the chips right now)
    1cost blue (maybe shift safe keeping since we already have secret move as a brown washer)
    Iron defense becomes blue?
    Pig on thinking ahead...can't remember if there is already one.
     
  2. Kai-

    Kai- Well-Known Member

    I've won games (yes i've done this more than once!) with Thinking Ahead by doing stuff like using it, then topdecking combine so I can crash a 4 next turn or topdecking a MP.
     
  3. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    The revised Thinking Ahead is at least okay at 2 cost chip. The +$1 on the main makes up for not buying a [1] instead, so that you can actually use the topbagging as an econ ramp without feeling like a sucker, unlike the old one where using TA to topbag a [2] meant you got the [2] a turn later than if you;d bought it over TA in the first place. Also the self-trashing on reaction means it helps slimdecking a bit (although it makkes using it against an attack heavy strat vulnerable to Trap).

    While I'm with you on wanting a blue puzzle chip that washes like Dashing Strike, Knockdown or Color Panic can, at least Improv can function as a blue washer if you draw the right chips - but that's unreliable and takes a bit of luck or setup.

    Self Improvement is pretty good all around - despite the cost.
     
  4. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    I enjoy TA quite a bit as well. I think it nicely fills the niche of being a cheap easily available hard counter to reds.

    I will say that I wish there was at least one more low cost blue that granted immunity on react (which would understandably need to have a relatively weak main). Having something like EOF or MFN as the only blues in bank against Color Panic always makes me sad.
     
  5. Fry

    Fry Well-Known Member

    revised Thinking Ahead is a perfectly fine chip, I approve of it.

    Don't think we should have too many things that wash blue arrows, though I could see something like the following

    The Best Defense
    cost 4
    Blue Shield/Red Fist
    Main: +red arrow, chosen opponent antes a [1]
    Reaction: you are immune to the [fist], and the opponent who [fisted] you antes a [1]
     
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  6. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    TA's and BaG's main utility is being immune to an attack (you can shut down powerful stuff like Mistress Command, etc.), so it would be an extremely dangerous nerf for characters that rely on reds if the main on either of those chips were so good that you would be ecstatic to buy them in games without any attacks.

    Money for Nothing is almost always superior to buying a 1-gem if you can't afford a 2-gem and there's nothing else you want.
     
  7. Atma

    Atma Active Member

    :eek:
     
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  8. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    I'll give TA another go, but as i mentioned above the issue is how niche it is. If it's to remain niche because making it strong is too good, then I still think we need one more blue chip that helps round out those who rely on blues....all one and a half of them(or fuck it and change gloria).

    That said an idea I was kicking around was-
    On reaction- gain arrow on next turn

    I've never bothered to throw it out before because i wasn't sure if it was a mechanic sirlin would be willing to mess with, but with zane's MA doing something like that and gems to gemorade giving money on reaction, I think that the idea of a 1 blue that gives you some kind of arrow would be interesting. Not so strong as to totally shut down a red strat, but certainly makes it riskier. Arrow color dependent on balance.

    Fry's idea sounds good even if you remove the wonderful wording of fisted, but i seem to recall sirlin saying no red fists on blue banners. I could be wrong.
     
  9. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    it's a decent idea, but seems like infinitely worse than just playing a 12-punch
     
  10. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    Anyway it's pretty much too late for this I think.
     
  11. ApolloAndy

    ApolloAndy Well-Known Member

    I agree with the principle in general and also with the idea that it's pretty much too late. Specifically, just plain immunity with no other bonus is kind of weak against quite a few reds (specifically the cheaper ones) and generally don't deter the opponent from trying to play reds in the first place (especially since CP and KD can wash so the Opp. doesn't lose too much by trying reds, getting immunized and doing what they were going to do anyway). All in blues should beat all in reds, but with just immunity chips, it does not.

    As for the mains:
    BaG with RA is fun, but tricky. BaG with RA and Improv. is gruesome and fun. IMO, most of the other mains aren't worth setting up with BaGing.
     
  12. Atma

    Atma Active Member

    What if we allowed it to come back to hand.

    Quick and easy fix that doesn't require much testing (ideally).
     
  13. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    I figured it might be, but thought i'd throw this out anyways just in case we can squeeze in some last minute changes.
     
  14. Kai-

    Kai- Well-Known Member

    One thing that I thought would be good is a blue to slow down/stop chaining reds like Sneak Attack, Color Panic and Chip Damage.

    Main: Something weak
    Reaction: Opponent may not gain any more +red this turn. (maybe trash?)

    But yeah, seems too late to actually do major things like a new blue or whatever
     
  15. ApolloAndy

    ApolloAndy Well-Known Member

    Heck, I think it would be fun if something like Jabs was a red/blue which could also react. You could do a crazy BaG/RJ rush and also the biggest weakness of all in reds is it often struggles with pile control. (The biggest mistake I see people make with BaG/RA/Improv. chains is not buying a second crash early. Great, my deck is pudding, but you only have 1 crash and 9 pile).
     
  16. ApolloAndy

    ApolloAndy Well-Known Member

    Or why not just "Opponent ends action phase."
    Wouldn't be too useful against the Red enders (though it would stop forking SP's and crash or Surgical Strike and crash) but would totally deter big red chaining.
     
  17. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    Agreed w/ all saying it's too late to get these changes in now. No harm in looking to the future though, neh?

    I can certainly relate to this one. I think it was just two days ago I lost precisely this way on Arg. Probably gave out 14 or so wounds, but didn't have the cash to buy more purples and establish pile control.

    Flavorwise, I dislike the idea of ending their turn on the spot. It doesn't feel like true defense anymore and instead feels like defense through offense. I'd think the cleaner way to get this effect is something like
    "Reaction: Become immune to all [red fist] until the end of the turn".

    A chip that strong should probably cost 4 and still have a really weak main though. Maybe no main at all to make it truly a pure defensive chip, and call it "Hyper Armor" or "Perfect Parrying" or somesuch?

    Addendum: I do like the idea of having some sort of drawback on the reaction. "Ante 1 and become immune..." sounds good to me. If we do that, maybe call it "Red Parries"?
     
  18. Turbo164

    Turbo164 Well-Known Member

    "Daigo's Full Parry"
     
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  19. Kdansky

    Kdansky Banned

    I do like the idea of giving Safe Keeping a blue banner, with not further change.

    Finally a blue - black washer.
    Definitely not broken good. It might even be worse, because Sets and a few others sometimes use it to brown-wash.
    Fits the theme: Blue is defensive, and putting gems from your pile into your bag is about as defensive as it gets.

    This would actually be feasible to do without a lot of play-testing, redesigning and what-have-you. I see no disadvantage to it.

    One could argue what its reaction should be, but it doesn't even need one, or it could just say "Main or Reaction". Seriously, putting crappy [1]s into your deck is never too good.
     
  20. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    Yeah, that's specifically what I was thinking of when I suggested Perfect Parrying as a name. If Beast Unleashed wasn't already a chip that coulda been perfect.

    Another disadvantage is that you'd be making an already weak chip practically unplayable. Most characters don't have blue arrows to spare, the brown-black wash is one of the main reasons people buy this in the first place.
     

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