Clockwork Draft Tier List

Discussion in 'Flash Duel' started by Vysetron, Feb 22, 2012.

  1. Vysetron

    Vysetron Member

    I know there's already a tier list thread, but that's for the actual characters and this is different enough that I think it warrants another topic.

    Some of the most fun I've had in Flash Duel has been playing the Custom Clockwork mode. The ability draft adds a whole different layer to the game that I really enjoy. Some abilities are a lot stronger or weaker when separated from their usual kit. Let's talk about tiers!

    What the tiers mean:
    1: Priority pick, grab this as fast as you can.
    2: Strong pick, overall useful ability.
    3: Decent pick, good with complimentary abilities/cards.
    4: Situational pick, only really usable with a specific setup.
    5: Garbage. Poison. A handicap.

    Knowing the Opponent- 2
    Can secure kills on the next turn in some situations. Even if you can't get that hit, it's always useful to know the other guy's hand.
    Martial Mastery- 3
    Too expensive for what it does. Can be useful when you really need it, but sacrificing a pair is bleh. Regardless of cost, it does save lives.
    Reversal- 2
    Can ruin your opponent's day really easily if they forget to avoid dark spaces. If they are conscious of them, they're still limiting their movement and options. Reversal is good times.

    Charged Shot- 2
    A ranged push that doesn't actually trash a card is really powerful if you're trying to play keepaway. It also sets up attacks/dashing strikes. Only reason it's not a 1 is because sometimes you don't want people far away.
    Smoldering Embers- 4
    Not very useful unless you have a whole set of large number related abilities.
    Flame Arrow- 3
    Can help keep your opponent honest. If they forget that you have it you're golden. Often it's pretty ineffectual aside from those times.

    Master of Twos- 2
    Apt rating for a useful card. Having a two that doesn't take space in your hand is nifty.
    Dragon Form- 1
    So strong, at least from what I've played. If you approach carefully and deal with a hit coming in, you can get free doubles or better all day.
    Rising Mountain- 5
    Only decent if you can get Dragon Form too. Otherwise awful.

    Ninpo Flash- 2
    Running to safety is nice.
    Speed of the Fox- 2
    Esper Dash- 1
    Really fast approach, great with strong early hands.

    Rock Armor- 1
    No dashing strikes allowed.
    Thunderclap- 2
    1's are good for dashing strikes, and this is just more incentive. Stacking ones for this is really good.
    Windmill Crusher- 5
    It can win you a round. Just not nearly often enough to justify taking it.

    Spectral Push- 3
    Can set up the perfect distance for an attack sometimes.
    Spectral Pull- 3
    See above.
    Pilebunker- 2
    You don't want to dashing strike anyone who has this. The threat is too great.

    Blue Eye's Epiphany- 2
    3's and 4's are a death zone. Stronger with the other epiphany.
    Green Eye's Epiphany- 2
    See above.
    Sudden Inspiration- 3

    Fast Forward Time- 3
    Can set up attacks from a little farther. Requires the correct cards though.
    Rewind Time- 3
    If you like to play defensively and/or hate time overs, go for it. Requires a certain playstyle.
    Echoes from the Past- 4
    I don't trust my opponent to give me anything good unless they're clueless. Which can happen.

    Raise the Stakes- 3
    More for mindgames than anything else. Make it look like you've got everything under control, make the wager, and make like a bandit if you get either of the good results. Can backfire though.
    Roll the Dice- 4
    Can be ok. Can totally suck. Such is Lum.
    Poker Flourish- 4
    Super situational. Potentially redonk.

    Bubble Shield- 4
    Can save your life, but really more of a counterpick ability than anything else. Recovering sucks.
    Slippery Fish- 5
    Recovering. Sucks.
    Pacifism- 4
    Rarely useful, but with a set of good defensive/ranged abilities it can win games.

    Political Prowess- 1
    You know how a lot of abilities require specific numbers? Save them for yourself and/or screw over the other guy with this. Alternatively, you could just stock up on any one particular thing and guarantee rounds. Quince is an asshole.
    Two Truths- 2
    Not mandatory, but really strong and no real drawback.
    Flagstone Tax- 1
    Such a dirty ability. Use it before an attack/dashing strike and make yourself almost completely safe, either by taking their cards or forcing a recovery.

    Clockwork Soldier- 2
    This puts your opponent's back to the wall more easily, but it still requires some work to get them there. Still great though.
    Decisive Strike- 2
    Dropping a double on someone without actually having the double? Sweet. Dashing strike only, but still good.
    The Art of War- 1
    One of the trolliest non-Quince cards. If you manage to block the dashing strike then you know exactly how to retaliate, and if you have to retreat you know exactly how far to go. On top of that, it weakens your opponent's next turn a lot. Yes please.

    Cornered Prey- 4
    Sounds better than it is. Without specific abilities there's no reliable way to use this.
    Giant Growth- 3
    Can be amazing. Can be crap. Still useful to have control over the discard pile, though.
    Unchained Beast- 4
    OK I guess?

    Rocket Punch- 1
    So very useful. Hits from all over the damn place, makes doubles out of nothing.
    Steam Vent- 1
    Either of the effects on their own would make this ability strong, having both is just fantastic. Get it.
    Reboot- 3
    It has the potential to win you time overs very easily, but a smart opponent can make it so that you never get a turn with 3 cards left. On top of that, you have to move to use it, no attacks/dashing strikes allowed. Requires setup.

    Bonecracker- 1
    Trashing the other guy's cards is good as is, but forcing a hand reveal even if you guess wrong? Yes. I might like hand reveals too much...
    Into Oblivion- 4
    You're sacrificing a slot for a chance at disabling one of the other guy's good abilities. Why not just take a better ability? Can be useful, but eh.
    Deathstrike- 2
    Forces the opponent to watch his step all game. Even if they avoid dark spaces like the plague, you still have the advantage because you know where they'll be moving. Force them to stand where you want them to stand!

    Dominance- 1
    This is basically a reverse recovery, and the best part is that you wait until after your main action to use it. Did they block that double 5? Pull them in and slap them. Are they setting up for an attack? Not anymore! So good.
    Beckon- 2
    A slightly worse Dominance. Being able to choose the number is nice, but they still get to take their turn. You also can't use this through recovery. Still really strong though.
    Savor the Lash- 2
    Keeps your card so you can block next turn. Nice.

    Radiant Healing- 5

    Ray of Hope- 3
    If you do have to retreat, having a pile of cards to defend yourself with is nice.
    Sanctuary- 3

    Shadow Plague- 4
    This is the prime example of a gimmick ability. With the help of some other picks (I'm thinking of Geiger's Rewind Time in particular) this can give you an incredible advantage for minimal risk. On its own though, this is a terrible choice.
    Shadowswarm- 2
    Forcing a retreat and recovery is pretty boss, and if you manage to get them against the wall this is a kill.
    Relentless Strikes- 5

    Stunlock- 3
    This can set up a kill pretty well, or at least another retreat. Solid.
    Surgical Strike- 1
    Very yes. This only gets better as the game goes on. Check the discard pile, find what they don't have, land an attack from anywhere and take the round.
    Acrobatics- 4
    If you're going to retreat, you may as well do it on your terms. You still have to recover. Recovering sucks.

    Landmine- 4
    It sounds better than it is. Almost no one will land on the mine, and the area denial is insignificant.
    Shoulder Ram- 2
    It's random, which I hate, but when it works it works really well. Any number can be useful depending on what you want, it's just a question of what you'll actually get. At least you get to keep the card, which is a nice bonus.
    Maximum Anarchy- 4
    Rarely worth it, but getting a new hand and/or ruining your opponent's can be really valuable.

    And that's it! Let's get to talkin'.
  2. Turbo164

    Turbo164 Well-Known Member

    Most seem fairly accurate at a glance, haven't done a draft yet since most people in the group have still only played a couple real characters.

    I don't think I'd rank Roll The Dice above Sudden Inspiration though...
  3. Vysetron

    Vysetron Member

    Yeah, you're right. Gonna change that.
  4. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    I think Sudden Inspiration is at least a 3, maybe a 2. Defensive abilities are so good. I'd put Speed of the Fox up to at least 2, maybe 1, and maybe Esper Dash up to 1 as well. Sestuki's stuff is crazy.
  5. Vysetron

    Vysetron Member

    Moved this to the OP, used to contain the second half of the characters.
  6. jelyman

    jelyman Active Member

    I would first off really recommend placing it all in the op. if someone wants to use this as a tool it's better that way and it makes it easier for you to update and follow.

    Reversal I think is too high and Martial Mastery is so good definately not a 4.

    Other main thing I disagree with is Troq. Giant Growth is good and can give you a huge advantage.

    There are a few others that I think about differently but those were the main things.
  7. Scarbo

    Scarbo Well-Known Member

    I agree that Giant Growth is hugely underrated. I'd say 2 at least.
  8. Vysetron

    Vysetron Member

    You guys are probably right, and it does have uses, but Giant Growth is just weird to me. Could I get an example of how it'd work well? That'd help me place it better.

    The threat of Reversal isn't as good as the threat of something like Deathstrike, but I do think it's useful. 2, maaaaybe 3 should be its new spot I think. Martial Mastery I'm going to bump up to 3, it saves lives.

    I'll move the second post to the OP. How do spoiler tags work here? That'd help things be tidier.
    dear god no not the wall again
  9. Mad King

    Mad King Well-Known Member

    You might also want to try drafting combos, like Fast Forward Time + Flame Arrow for Instant Win.
  10. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Pilebunker is definitely not a top priority pick, it's just not that good. First they need to Dashing Strike with something lower than a 4, then you need to actually retreat to the correct distance (meaning you need a 1/2/3), then you need to actually have a 4 and even after that they can still block. Beyond that if they do block, the standard penalty for blocking (having 1 less card) is negated since the attack happened before the end of their turn and they haven't drawn back to a full hand yet.

    Beckon is definitely worse than Spectral Pull, like both because Spectral Pull is at least a 2 and because Beckon is at best a 4. I'm not sure if I'd agree that Steam Vent is a 1 but it's probably good enough. Charged Shot and Spectral Push seem fine where they are at 2 and 3 respectively.

    Into Oblivion is at least a 3. Think of it this way, there are very few abilities you can use on your first turn and of those, there are even fewer you'd want to use, so at worst you're turning each match into a two ability match. Beyond that you CAN use it later in the match as a preemptive pseudo-counter. Finally, if you're going for a two ability strategy your third ability would be largely moot anyway so denying them one of their options would be among your best options.

    Giant's Growth is amazing, easily a 2. At worst you can use it somewhat like Two Truths or Martial Mastery, at best you can use it for Poker Flourish, Rock Armor or Charged Shot setups.

    Stunlock is at least a 2, especially when combined with other forced discard abilities.

    Acrobatics is a 4. Like sure you can retreat without altering your hand but you'll still be recovering next turn. This is pretty much the definition of a situational ability.
  11. Choke Artist

    Choke Artist Well-Known Member

    Is it just me, or Val the most boring character in the game?

    I have never played it, but she has two really similar abilities (in name and effect) and another ability that is just 'draw a card'.
  12. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Val is kind of interesting simply because all of her abilities can be used on opponent's turns. The problem is that none of them are particularly reliable.
  13. Scarbo

    Scarbo Well-Known Member

    deluks917 and NidoKing like this.
  14. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    That's why I'd say it's a solid 3. Think about it like this, if it's a 3 power card, neither player will pick it if 1 or 2 power level cards exist in the pool. That means by picking it, worst case you're sacrificing an average ability slot and the potential to use a different ability your first turn for a high chance to eliminate a stronger ability. Beyond that it has the potential to interfere with their overall strategy... like honestly I don't see how anyone could think this card is below average (aka 3).
  15. Choke Artist

    Choke Artist Well-Known Member

    Sorry, I meant the second most boring character in the game.
    NidoKing likes this.
  16. Turbo164

    Turbo164 Well-Known Member

    Current version of list (missing some updates probably) has:

    11 one's
    14 two's
    17 three's
    11 four's
    7 five's

    Average score of 2.817 fyi.

    Drafts use 12 cards; on average 3.6 of them will be rated 4 or 5; since 4 abilities will be left on the sidelines, most players will end up with 3 or 4 abilities of 3 or higher, 2.5 of which will be 2 or higher.

    If you choose Oblivion in an average pool, it has a 62.5% chance of blowing up a card rated higher than 3.

    Worth the risk? Maybe. In a powerful pool, it's more likely to hit something strong (if opponent has 1 1 2 3, then Oblivion will probably be better than any other 3!). In a weak pool, it will probably blow up something lackluster (if both players are forced to scrape together multiple 4's, would you rather have consistent "meh" or a 25% chance to hit their one decent card?). If the opponent has specific combos (draw + poker flourish, fast forward + flame arrow, pacifism + stall/deckthin etc) or as mentioned powerful abilities that will probably be used AFTER using some weaker ones, value goes up.

    And just like in Puzzle Strike where Forks and Enders many "start of your turn" abilities do you already have? Oblivion can be used before either player is in dashing strike range, so if you've already got several that will be boosting your offense once per turn, that might be better than another combat ability you probably won't have enough turns to use. If you've got one or two defensive reactions, then you might want a more combat oriented one since it won't be competing with much else on your turn.

    It also matters what order you choose in; if there's three 1's in the pool, then Player 2 will have 1's take up half his deck. Player 1 might want to grab it for his 3rd pick at that point, after getting one of the 2's.

    ...that was probably more math than necessary to agree it's probably a 3. Value can change a lot based on the pool, but even if there's awesome things to blow up you'll usually want some of those awesome things before you decide which player will get to blow up the other guy's awesome things.

    bbobjs likes this.
  17. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    I'd actually agree, Poker Flourish is definitely not a 5. I'd rank it as situational (4) since it actually has some rather nice synergy with Giant's Growth, Political Prowess and Shadow Plague.
  18. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Gloria is my favourite FD character, so I certainly disagree that she's boring. Her abilities aren't as flashy as some of the other characters', but the emergent gameplay they lead to is a lot of fun. Val is fun as well, but I wish she were a nudge stronger.
  19. Vysetron

    Vysetron Member

    Funny you mention Val. I purposely played characters I normally didn't bother with/didn't like recently. Most of my opinions haven't changed much, but I won almost every round with Val. Having 3 and 4 be a death zone is awesome.

    Also, gonna make a few changes to the list soon:
    -All of Setsuki's stuff is getting bumped up one tier. I was being conservative before. She's great.
    -DeGrey's Pilebunker is being moved down to 2. I still like it if only for the threat, but you can negate it.
    -Val's Epiphanies are going up to tier 2. Granted they're stronger if you have both, but being able to play cards you don't actually have is really good.
    -Lum's Poker Flourish is moving up to 4. Situational as hell, but it works damn well with certain abilities.
    -Giant Growth is going up to 3. I played Troq a bunch recently, and while I still don't like his kit I can see why Giant Growth could be great.
    -Vendetta's Acrobatics are moving down to 4. It can be useful, but it requires the other person to move carelessly.

    Also, my goodness you guys care about Menelker.
  20. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    I strongly disagree with ranking Epiphanies as 2 since I don't believe either is better than Spectral Pull. Admittedly Spectral Push is kinda meh but Pull is amazing. Yes the down side is they have to be on a Light space but that's less than the downside of having to actually have a 3/4 to even use the card. Think about it this way, if you have one of the Epiphanies, one of the 5 distances you can attack from becomes more threatening to stand on but if you have Spectral Pull then you're either standing a|LLDDLL, b|LDDLLD, c|DDLLDD or d|DLLDDL. In case a 3 spaces are now double the threat, in case b 2 spaces, in case c 2 spaces and case d 3 spaces. As for dashing strikes the Epiphanies influences 5 spaces spectral pull averages 4.5 a|LLDDLLDDLLD b|LDDLLDDLLDD c|DDLLDDLLDDL d|DLLDDLLDDLL, a=4 b=4 c=5 d=5. Of course although Blue Eyes allows you to turn a 4 and a 1 into a 4 space dashing strike, you could have just attacked... so realistically it's only significantly influencing 4 spaces. Also Spectral Pull also has a gimmick use from a distance of 2 to pull the opponent into push range and then push them with whatever card. That said the Epiphanies can be used on opponent's turns, but I don't think that compensates for the offensive advantage Spectral Pull has over them.

    Rewind Time is situational (4) at best. Since discards are public, it doesn't grant you any REAL advantage most of the time.
  21. Inkstud

    Inkstud Patreon Supporter

    I'm surprised Giant Growth isn't a 2. At least. It seems amazing in the games I've been playing. Cards that allow you to trade out stuff in your hand you can't use for stuff you can are soooo good. Like, if it's past the first few turns and Troq ever blocks your dashing strike or attack, you are like basically going to die. Or if he's just stuck with a not so great hand, he just trades it in for a new one. So good. And the drawback basically like never happens ever.
  22. Atma

    Atma Active Member

    From a lot of the forum posts I've seen, I'm willing to bet that most people aren't using Giant Growth correctly. Super powerful card.
    NoahTheDuke likes this.
  23. SirHandsome

    SirHandsome Well-Known Member

    yes. its a 1.
  24. SirHandsome

    SirHandsome Well-Known Member

    Just realized though, maybe some people underrate it because there was some confusion about how it works? But Sirlin confirmed on BoardGameGeek that you can draw the same cards back that you discarded. That makes it DAMN scary.
  25. Atma

    Atma Active Member

    Yeah... that might make it the best single ability then. Why would you ever get hit with the penalty condition in that case?
  26. SirHandsome

    SirHandsome Well-Known Member

    Yeah it does seem like the penalty is pointless with that ruling. But the ruling is more consistent with the way the card is worded. The penalty is what made me doubt that the literal interpretation was intended until Sirlin said otherwise

    Guess there are still times where the penalty might come up, but they don't seem that practical
  27. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    The penalty is to prevent "exploits" where you just pitch a bunch of stuff you don't want while digging for new cards. It's probably not really needed most of the time, but it keeps it working as intended even in corner cases.
  28. ratxt1

    ratxt1 Well-Known Member

    am i missing something, because i really don't value attack abilities in this game since dashing strike is just so much more powerful, and by the time attacking comes into play the game is usually decided anyway. So i am really suprised to see both rocket punch and surgical strike as 1's.
  29. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Rocket Punch is especially good because it drastically increases the amount of space you can threaten. It also allows you to threaten from spaces that are otherwise safe. Quick examples:

    They dashing strike using a number higher than 1 as the strike, normally this would mean there are only 3 cards left in the deck they could use to attack you with, so it's a fairly safe move; however with Rocket Punch, there are potentially up to 8 cards left, making it a significantly less safe option in this matchup.

    As for Surgical Strike... I'm honestly not sure I'd rank it as a 1 but I can definitely see the argument for it staying in that position. Like it completely denies a the common tactic of moving into a "safe" range because you have the cards required to block that range, it also drastically increases the threat of death when failing to retreat out of attack range and it can be especially scary if they manage to move into 1 range simply because any option you try can completely backfire.

    Dashing strikes are powerful but they rarely win matches alone, chances are you're going to need to land an attack to win.
    Snail Racer and zem like this.
  30. Tokhuah

    Tokhuah Member

    This is great information to have. Since I am new to this game and do not carry the cards with me at all times it would be nice to have a wiki, spreadsheet, or some other type of searchable electroinicy thingy as a reference to card abilities. Does something like this exist?
  31. Tokhuah

    Tokhuah Member

    Question on Landmine: do you need to end your move on it or does moving across it trigger the ability?
  32. Inkstud

    Inkstud Patreon Supporter

    Moving over / past the landmine does not trigger it. You have to move specifically to the spot that it's on.
  33. LameHandle

    LameHandle New Member

    The store has all the card images organized by character available for reference. It's very handy to keep open when playing Yomi.
  34. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    Ninpou Flash Does not seem like a 2 to me. I have played around 15 games with setsuki and used it around 1-2 times. For me esper dash is a 0 since I would never pass it.
    Targie and Lofobal like this.
  35. Bod

    Bod Active Member

    I don't know about Reboot being a 1 or a 2. You basically have to use it on the final turn and win via last hits to get any use out of it. If the opponent gets the final action of the game then it's useless, I think...?

    Also it might not even give as many wins as Pacifism which is ranked a 4 on this list.
  36. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    OK I am going to try to rate the "Strong" Cards I have exoerienced:

    0 - Esper Dash: Insane and unpassable. Nothing else comes close imo. Dashing strike is super strong in FD and this can almost always set one up. If you get a "fair" dashing strike then you can you this to follow up and put the opponent way behind. This card has tons of play since you can control the stack. Importantly it lets you win if they pass back with the deck having 2 cards since you can move twice and get in ideal range.

    1 - Speed of the fox - Very strong defensively. You can often get into a range where the opponent cannot DS. Maybe its most important value is that it lets you take an extra card off the top of the deck. For example if there are 5 cards in the deck they annot really DS into a pair since you can likely get in range and win with last hit.

    4 - Ninpo Flash - Not really a strong card. It doesn't come up most games. Even when it does it is not usually game breaking. Nice but not a card hat really helps your main gameplan.

    1 - Art of War - Very often it lets you eat a DS and be able to DS back or move into a good range. A great defensive card in an agressive game.

    2 - Pilebunker - It lets you move into DS range with confidence. Even the risk makes it hard to DS sometimes. Still it needs 4's and so is high variance. Still the effect is so strong I think it is worst an early pick. However var makes it not a 1 imo.

    1 - Rock Armor - The other contender for 2nd best card. If you are holding a pair of 4's or 5's it is very likely that you can eat a DS and either attack (usually fatally) or DS back. Imo snap pick if Esper Dash is not around.

    1 - Political Prowess - I think the best use of this card is to take 4's and Especially 5's. If you can get 2-3 high cards in the bank you are at a huge advantage in getting 9-10 distance DS's off. The key to FD is DS so I think the best thing to do with this card is to use it as a space control tool. Don't be overly predictable though or the opponent can exploit sometimes. The most interesting ability imo.

    1 - Flagstone Tax - Again I think the best way to think of this card is as a space control tool. You are almost always safe the turn after you use this. This lets you move forward and take the momentum in the game. It is often fine to use this card out of DS range if deck is getting low. Another hard to play card.

    2 - Two truths - It lets you close out tons of games if you have momentum. Defensive/spacing ability is limited since pairs are not always in the discard early. Onmly real defensive use is that it discourages speculative DS's. For instance you can't really DS 5-5 since if the other guy blocks he can likely TT's back 55 and attack back for the win. Really strong for a 2.

    2- Giant Growth - Another card that makes your rush much better. It is actually a very similar card to TT's. Similar limited Defense. Still really good.

    2- Dominance - I am not sure if this is a 1 or a 2. I do not like the black/white square effects usually since they can be played around. However Dominance is such an absurd effect when it works that maybe it is worth taking early.

    2 - Fast Forward time - Actually really strong and underated imo. It basically means you cannot be safe within 1-3 squares of geiger. Also lets him set up more DS's and double move at the end of the game to end the round early.

    2 - Slippery Fish - One of the weaker DS defense cards. I am not sure if it is a 1 or a 2. I think it is slightly too weak for a 1. It does give you some control over the end of the game but not quite enough imo.

    3 - Acrobatics - Similar to Slippery Fish. It is a very card to have but weak enough I would take more aggressive cards over it despite defense being fundamentally very strong.

    2 - Slippery Fish - Suprisingly strong. It forces the opponent to attack

    2 - Pacifism - Surprisingly Strong. It forces the opponent to attack you which lets you get control and DS when you want to alot of the time. LEts you close out many games as well. However it has multiple counters and can definitely be played around a bit.

    2 - Charged shot - Really good for controlling the pace of the game. Can set up many attacks if opponent tries to get up close. Very good to push opponent back four the win.

    2 - Decisive Strike - Very useful. Helps to set up many DS's that would otherwise not work. Often really good late. Weak for a 2.

    2 - Shadowswarm - awesome card. A much better DS. Also great for adding an extra card to a DS to end the game early.

    1 - Shoulder Ram - Sets up DS's. Often sets up free attacks for the win. Anything that lets you regularly attack from 11-12 is insane and worth a first pick early.

    2 - Steam Vent - Another card that can be played around but it is hard to deny how good it can be at stealing momentum. Slightly below average 2 imo.

    3 - Smoldering Ember - Very nice to have around and useful most games. Still doesn't really affect the game too strongly.

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