CrystalChaos Challenge (5)

Discussion in 'Puzzle-Strike: Bag of Chips' started by CrystalChaos, Mar 15, 2012.

  1. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    The CrystalChaos Challenge is a testing tournament series that will run every 2 weeks until further notice. The fifth will start at this time.

    This tournament will be double elimination, best of 3, double blind initial character selection, and random bank. The bank should be randomized after characters have been chosen.
    The loser of each round may change characters, randomize the bank, or swap out a bank chip (that their opponent didn't swap out earlier) for another one.
    Signups will end 7 minutes before the tournament.

    (Format (especially the first paragraph and title) mostly copied from Chump's Challenge)

    Entrants:
    1. Star Slayer
    2. Karrius
    3. CrystalChaos
    4. rabid_schnauzer
    5. Eijolend
    6. Kai-
    7.
    8.
    9.
    10.
    11.
    12.
    13.
    14.
    15.
    16.
    17.
    18.
    19.
    20.
    21.
    22.
    23.-379.
  2. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    I think Gloria, Persephone, and Arg should be priorities for this one (possibly Quince as well).
  3. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    Also, this may be the last testing tournament.
  4. jelyman

    jelyman Active Member

    It kills me that I haven't been able to play in any yomi or ps tournaments lately, also busy thus Saturday..... :(

    Well I don't have perse, Arg, Gloria, or quince so I guess no Biggs.
  5. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    Other characters are fine too, it's just I think someone should play those (mostly Gloria and Persephone).
  6. cpat

    cpat Active Member

    Arg will be free this next week.

    EDIT: This one should probably be stickied, and the previous one unstickied.
  7. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    As usual, I'm iffy on whether I'll be free or not.

    I have played Perse in the last three of these, and aside from the day the starting head cold made me play stupidly, I've managed a slightly over 50% win rate with her as a starting blind pick, so she's probably fine.

    I trust viva and Aesa's testing of the current Arg.

    But Gloria sure could use a serious trial run, and Quince probably needs at least a cursory re-examination in light of all the other changes.

    And of course, thoroughly testing any particular set of characters means that some entrants need to be playing their best characters from outside the set to provide a fair test.
  8. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    Persephone has been buffed since then.

    Yeah, their testing is good, but they've voiced some concerns about arg I think (maybe in irc).
  9. Star Slayer

    Star Slayer Well-Known Member

    While I am not 100% sure yet, I should be able to attend.

    I have played Persephone a lot and she seems fine. Was average in my opinion, now got a slight buff. From my last few games, there were no signs of her being too good, even with the better MC.

    What is the problem with Arg? He seems to be somewhere around medium tier. Is he considered to be too bad, too good or just too annyoing?
  10. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    I have no serious concerns with Arg (if we had like 1 more year of testing then maybe I would want to talk about him). Last I checked viva said something similar, but maybe I'm wrong.

    Anyway next "free Arg week" should be great for testing. This week changed a lot of people's minds about Rook.
  11. Jude

    Jude Active Member

    I think I will actually be able to make this timeslot.
  12. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    I thought viva was saying arg was bad for tournament players, but I may be wrong.
  13. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    Arg is no longer a great choice for tournaments; probably it will turn out that his powerlevel is close to Rook's. But he is such a simple character that, like Rook, it is probably OK for him to be underpowered.

    The current situation is miles better than before, where monopurp Argagarg was this top tier thing.

    Anyway, I can't make the tournament.
  14. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    Yeah, ok. So I guess that leaves Persephone and Gloria and maybe Quince.
  15. Eijolend

    Eijolend New Member

    Hey, if you don't mind I'd like to join and get torn apart by the players that are actually good at this game :)
  16. Star Slayer

    Star Slayer Well-Known Member

    Just to be sure: I will definitely participate.
  17. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    Can't make this one.
  18. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    Sorry about this guys, but the tournament will have to start ~15-20 minutes late.
  19. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    I'm signing up for now, but there is a chance I may have to bail out after about 2 - 3 hours - hopefully I'll know for sure by tourney start. (I think additional test data is worth the chance of having to concede a match due to RL)
  20. Kai-

    Kai- Well-Known Member

  21. Karrius

    Karrius Well-Known Member

    Last minute signup go.
  22. Karrius

    Karrius Well-Known Member

    Karrius (Lum) 1 : rabid_schnauzer (Persephone) 2
  23. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    rabid (PERSE LWW) 2-1 Karrius (LUM WLL)

    Panda lurves Dashing Strike
    Dominatrix lurves color panic
    Final game had very tense ending.

    also: http://challonge.com/cccc5
  24. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    Star Slayer (Persephone) 2-1 CrystalChaos (Gloria)
  25. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    rabid (PERSE WW) 2-0 Kai- (Gwen LL)

    Mass wounding in game 1
    Turn 2 CaH for Turn 3 Custom Combo + DcG in game 2

    Also, damn but the Phantom of the Paradise soundtrack still holds up so very well.
  26. Star Slayer

    Star Slayer Well-Known Member

    Star Slayer (Persephone WW) 2 - 0 Eijolend (Geiger L Arg L)

    Both games were really close.
    Won against Geiger due to Color Panic.
    Game against Arg was super close (made a horrible mistake when I used the wrong reaction - Blues are Good instead of Always in Control; next turn, I couldn't discard a puzzle chip to combine).

    That is very true.
  27. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    Kai- (Gwen) 2-1 CrystalChaos (Gloria)
  28. Eijolend

    Eijolend New Member

    Eijolend (Geiger) 2 - 0 Karrius (Lum)
  29. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    Star Slayer (PERSE L BBB WW) 2-1 Rabid (Perse WLL)

    One of these days I should stop posting guides to how to beat the characters I'm playing right before the tourney
    Star Slayer and Eijolend like this.
  30. Star Slayer

    Star Slayer Well-Known Member

    rabid, just noticed our room name: CC5 ill terrier vs supermassive gravity well :)

    And thanks for the games. I feel a little mean for taking BBB. On the other hand, the games were closer than I thought they would be.

    Persephone mirrors are weird.

    I hit with MC three or four times (not against rabid, but over the course of the tournament so far). Being able to play two chips mattered once and won me that game. The other times, it didn't matter (playing one chip was enough or my opponent didn't have any non-gem, non-wound chips in hand).
  31. Kai-

    Kai- Well-Known Member

    Kai- (gwen) 2-0 Eijolend (geiger)
  32. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    Don't. I woulda counterpicked the same if you had won the mirror.
    And in hindsight, I probably shoulda counterpicked a BBB mirror in the 3rd.
  33. Star Slayer

    Star Slayer Well-Known Member

    I'm glad you didn't do that - I'm not a huge fan of mirrors.
  34. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    rabid (Perse LWW) 2-1 Kai- (Gwen WLL)

    MC for 2 mattered in final woundariffic Chip Damage PyP ditch whole hand game
  35. Star Slayer

    Star Slayer Well-Known Member

    Playing Persephone against Gwen with both Chip Damage and Pick Your Poison in the bank mattered, too. ;)

    MC for 2 mattered once so far for me, too. I think it was the following situation, where I MCed him at 6:
    - I give my opponent a Risky Move.
    - I risky move his 3-gem from his hand into his gem pile.
    - I play his single Crash on a 1 in his pile, then countercrash a 2 from my pile.
    - His next turn, he antes 1, goes to 10, has no Crash, loses.
  36. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    Finals:

    Rabid (Zane WW) 2-0 Star Slayer (Oni L, Perse L)
  37. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    Grand Finals
    Star Slayer (Oni LWW) 2-1 Rabid (Zane)
  38. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    [​IMG]

    Congratulations Star Slayer!

    Thanks everyone for playing!
  39. Star Slayer

    Star Slayer Well-Known Member

    Thank you for hosting this tournament!

    And thanks to everyone for playing. This was a really fun tournament and there were many tight games.

    Persephone seems to get better by the week. She is still below Onimaru (which is the most powerful character next to Setsuki in my opinion) and a few other characters though. Mistress's Command allowing you to play two chips mattered in one game out of the six I played with her. It won me that game though.

    I am quite content with almost every character. Both the ones I played myself, as well as the ones I played against. The only one I haven't really played against is Quince.

    Only Gloria looks a bit disappointing. I wondered if we could change the free-to-play condition on Saving Grace so that it works when any chip was trashed this turn, not just wounds. Then it would actually matter. I think I saw the current version matter once.
  40. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    So, first stats:

    Character Wins/Games
    Persephone 10/17 (includes one mirror match)
    Gwen 5/10
    Gloria 2/6
    Zane 3/5
    Geiger 2/5
    Lum 1/5
    OnimaruI 2/4
    Bal-Bas-Beta 2/2
    Arg 0/1

    Thoughts:

    Perse finished slightly above 50% again - reconfirming my opinion on her. She's strong, but she has many close games and she can be counterpicked - meaning that her balance is within acceptable parameters. Of particular note was that in the 17 games the buff to MC mattered exactly twice, once in a game-winning way and once in a minor advantage way.

    As much as Perse lurves Color Panic, the reveal swap is a more meaningful nerf than I thought. It still was usually to my advantage to buy and spam CP, even in one match as Zane, but at least now I didn't feel stupid when I did things like buy a 1st cycle combine instead of a CP, the way I did last week.

    Gwen finished at exactly 50% (played by someone who has played a LOT of Gwen since the reset). Interestingly, I think she's finished at precisely 50% in all (maybe just most) of these where I tracked W/L stats.

    Zane seems to me probably top-tier, seeing as on top of last week's results and the leaderboard stats, I was relatively inexperienced using him and came pretty close to pulling out the win with him. I'm still clueless who or what counterpicks he fears. Oni's strong against him, but Oni is just generally strong.

    I no longer think BBB is top-tier, but I do think he's solid and he was very well used as a counterpick here.

    CC's early exit with current Gloria is somewhat disturbing to me - I know he's done better in prior events with the old version of Gloria that I (and others) thought was bottom tier. Hopefully he was just having an off day here, because if the new Gloria isn't as good as the old Gloria was, that's downright depressing. I want to calling on others to try to test Gloria hard immediately (like two weeks ago immediately) to getter a better handle on this.

    Balance aside, there is no longer any doubt in my mind that I should have kicked and screamed about the "play for free" clause on Saving Grace - interesting though it may be, it's on the wrong character and also on a chip where the effect just isn't neat enough to warrant it. While I'm going into rant mode: Star Slayer's suggestion that it trigger off of the trashing of any chip (so also [1]s) is an improvement upon a concept that shouldn't exist - Gloria already has three arrows and two reactions and in 20% of random banks she has nothing else to use her blue arrow on anyways.

    As for other characters: My biggest concern is that Quince is undertested in the current environment after all the changes.
    Star Slayer and Turbo164 like this.
  41. Star Slayer

    Star Slayer Well-Known Member

    I just wanted to propose something that would be a small buff without the need to completely rework Gloria and which wouldn't need a lot of testing. Additionally, we could add +pig to either Radiant Healing or Healing Touch, to help getting Saving Grace, Radiant Healing and a puzzle chip together. Another pig would also help her to keep her reactions (or a crash) ready.​
    This is just a simple suggestion. I will keep any indepth discussion of possible Gloria fixes to her own thread.​
  42. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    I was unexpectedly free Sat, but didn't know how long these tend to run and didn't want to commit if I couldn't stay the whole time. From the thread here it appears to be around 5.5 hrs? Is that typical
  43. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    Usually I think it's a lot shorter.
  44. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    The length of these is always in the 3-6 hour range, most of them tend toward the middle of that. Often the last hour or so is just the two finalists (especially in a BO 5 finals tourney)

    This one started late, got held up by me needing to postpone a match by 15 minutes, went past finals and into the grand finals, which went 3 games with a marathon final game.
  45. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    4.5 hrs isn't so bad, I may be able to make a few of these going forward. Thanks for the info.
  46. EricF

    EricF Well-Known Member

    Couldn't play in the tourney, but I second the comments on Gloria. +chip +pig is just not worth jumping through hoops to play for free. And though she may have lots of arrows and chips, she doesn't have any real game-affecting actions (no Double Take, Martial Mastery, Surgical Strike, Deathstrike Dragon, Double Slash, etc.) The net effect is that she gets to play her puzzle chips slightly more often, kind of like a bad Geiger.

    I keep wishing she had +chip +chip as a "free play" - at least that would give her an identity of "good at cycling"

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