Damage Efficiency

Discussion in 'Yomi: Fighting Card Game' started by deluks917, Apr 24, 2012.

  1. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    So people talk alot about certain characters being more damage Efficent (grave/De Grey) than other characters (Val/Geiger). But I have always wondered exactly what was meant by this. I think in this thread we should try to analyze the damage efficiency of the different characters. I personally would not focus very much on Jaina/Lum/Setsuki since their innates give them essentially infinite damage efficency (especially sets). However if we people want to analyze them its definately worthwhile if they can figure out a good way to consider their innates.

    Ok to me the most obvious way to run the analysis would be to figure out the average dmg of a card in the character's deck. For simplicity I just added up the damage and neglected to divide by 14. This requires estimating the average value of double sided cards. It also requires deciding whether things like Midori's 10 should count for damage or not. Anyway here are my results. How I counted the damage is at the end of the post:

    Grave-85
    his block gives queens

    Val - 76
    Can get more aces then other chars off straights. Ace draws cards

    Geiger - 91
    Time spirals hitting blocks makes them do much less damage.

    Rook - 113
    rook loses card efficiency off RA/3B/Q-pump

    Midori - 106
    2 was counted for damage but if dragon form it does no actual damage. I counted 10 as 0 dmg lol.

    De Grey - 92
    + innate

    Argagarg - 72
    Bubble shield is very hard to count imo.Also innate is super good and stuff.

    Jaina - 78

    Lum - 84

    Setsuki - 65

    Ok so this is not exactly the expected results. Maybe one problem is counting things like 10 throws. Should the average damage of the "good" cards matter more (7T,faces, etc). Idk how people want to do this analysis but I would apreciate any feedback.
     
  2. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    notes -

    Grave:

    2 - 2
    3 - 3
    4 - 4
    5 -5
    6 - 6
    7 - 7
    8 - 7
    9 - 7
    10 - 7
    J - 8
    Q - 10
    K - 7
    A -12

    T= 85

    Val:
    2 - 2
    3 - 3
    4 - 4
    5 -5
    6 - 6
    7 - 6
    8 - 6
    9 - 6
    10 - 6
    J - 7
    Q - 8
    K - 6
    A - 9

    T = 76

    Geiger:
    2 - 2
    3 - 3
    4 - 9
    5 -5
    6 - 6
    7 - 8
    8 - 8
    9 - 8
    10 - 8
    J - 8
    Q - 6
    K - 10
    A -10

    T = 91

    Rook:
    2 - 10
    3 - 10
    4 - 4
    5 - 7 (my guess at stonewall avg dmg when it hits)
    6 - 8 avg
    7 - 8 avg
    8 - 8
    9 - 10
    10 - 10
    J - 4
    Q - 9
    K - 15
    A - 10

    T = 113

    Midori:
    2 - 8
    3 - 8
    4 - 8
    5 - 8
    6 - 6
    7 - 7
    8 - 8
    9 - 8
    10 - 0 i gave 9 an 8
    J - 8
    Q - 12
    K - 14
    A - 11

    T = 106

    De Grey;
    2 - 4
    3 - 4
    4 - 0
    5 - 5
    6 - 6
    7 - 8
    8 - 8
    9 - 8
    10 - 8
    J - 7
    Q - 14
    K - 10
    A - 10

    T = 92

    Argagarg:
    2 - 2
    3 - 3
    4 - 4
    5 - 5
    6 - 6
    7 - 6
    8 - 6
    9 - 6
    10 - 6
    J - 7
    Q - 9
    K - 6
    A - 10 (idk 8 for spikes 12 for BS?)

    T = 76

    Jaina:
    2 - 2
    3 - 3
    4 - 4
    5 - 5
    6 - 6
    7 - 7
    8 - 7
    9 - 7
    10 - 7
    J - 6
    Q - 8
    K - 7
    A - 9

    T = 78

    Lum:
    2 - 0
    3 - 3
    4 - 4
    5 - 5
    6 - 6
    7 - 7
    8 - 8
    9 - 9
    10 - 10
    J - 4
    Q - 8
    K - 7
    A - 13

    T = 84

    Setsuki:
    2 - 2
    3 - 3
    4 - 4
    5 - 5
    6 - 6
    7 - 6
    8 - 6
    9 - 6
    10 - 6
    J - 5
    Q - 1
    K - 6
    A - 9

    T = 65
     
  3. Morn

    Morn Well-Known Member

    The question I have is: how did you handle pump cards? For example, Jaina's Q is nearly always pumped, while Lum's throws almost never are. So, I'm curious as to how this inluences damage efficiency for those characters.
     
  4. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    It usually doesn't matter because pumping does less damage than the card would by itself, except in a few relatively rare cases. (unless it's a 2 or something... but then you keep the card anyway because a 2 is better than pump unless you're about to win)
     
  5. Arghy

    Arghy Active Member

    I think a more interesting way of analyzing characters would be by calculating the average damage payoff and card expense of a won combat. An even more informative way would be listing a character's bread-and-butter combos and looking at their damage and length, since most characters have a fairly narrow set of actually worthwhile combos.
     
    friiik likes this.
  6. major_shiznick

    major_shiznick Well-Known Member

    Yep, I'm with Arghy here. Whenever I've heard people discussing damage efficiency, it's in the context of the damage output of typical combos, rather than a sum of all their possible damage. An advantage of such an approach is the ability to avoid discussions like "is Glipse really a throw?". All that matters is that the throw wins, and then you can discuss what the typical damage options are. That gets a more realistic view of damage output, and then you can discuss efficiency by averaging the damage per card over the range of their best combos.

    With this, the question becomes one of which combos to consider and whether or not to give probabilistic weights to certain ones to better reflect their frequency of occurrence. If I didn't have finals breathing down my neck I'd totally throw up some preliminary numbers on this.
     
  7. brainof7

    brainof7 Member

    Grave straight combos aren't too hard or numerous

    2345 14 damage 4 cards (-2 for aces search)
    3456 18 damage 4 cards (-2 for aces search)
    234J 17 damage 4 cards (-1 for aces search)
    345J 20 damage 4 cards (-1 for aces search)
     
  8. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    456J 23 damage 4 cards (-1 for aces search)
     
  9. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    On the contrary, Time Spirals hitting blocks makes them do more damage than pretty much any other attack hitting blocks besides Grave/Jaina J.
     
  10. Choke Artist

    Choke Artist Well-Known Member

    They still do more damage than 3/7. Unless the block is bubble shield. The efficiency is lower I guess.
     
  11. Arghy

    Arghy Active Member

    Common Midori combos:

    Throw -> 8: 16 damage, 2 cards
    Throw -> JJ: 24 damage, 3 cards

    dQ8: 22 damage, 2 cards
    dJ78: 24 damage, 3 cards
    dJAA: 29 damage, 3 cards
    dQJJ: 30 damage, 3 cards
    dJ8JJ: 33 damage, 4 cards

    J: 8 damage, 1 card
    Q: 10 damage, 1 card
    K: 12 damage, 1 card
    JJ: 16 damage, 2 cards
    dK: 17 damage, 1 card
    AA: 20 damage, 2 cards
    AAA: 36 damage, 3 cards
    AAAA: 52 damage, 4 cards

    Add 1 card if you Glimpse or dodge.
     
  12. Scarbo

    Scarbo Well-Known Member

    I do not think that damage efficiency is worth looking at by itself. Something I think is more interesting would be how this translates into the number of card draws each character needs to win an average game.
     
  13. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    The data is welcome any way
     

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