Darkfall (MMORPG without levels, or classes)

So, things have been quiet around Darkfall for quite some time. I thought about it recently, and seems it is nearing completion and/or a public beta.
If this is news to anyone:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkfall
Summary
- PvP focus
- Varied gameplay
- No levels or class limitations
- And stuff.

All I can ask is: Potential?
Discuss?

If they deliver on this, then it looks like it has potential to be a very cool game.

I can still see some grinding issues, as people will grind up their skills as seen in games like Morrowind and Oblivion, but it looks like a large chunk of grinding has been dealt with and given a nice firm boot out the door.

The unrestricted PvP may possibly pose some problems, however, given the classless system as well as the fact they utilize real-time combat, this is a diminished problem. In addition, I've found when there are consequences for indiscriminate killing, it will stop most people from doing so. We'll see how it turns out though.

Definitely not a fan of the idea that you can be looted on death. If I work hard to obtain an awesome item, I don't want to lose it because a group of ten gangs up on me to gank me or something along those lines. That said, depending on how important items are, as well as how hard they are to obtain, this also may or may not be a big issue for me.

The other big thing, which does really appeal to me, is the real time combat. I've been telling friends for years that this is something MMORPGs absolutely need to implement in order to move beyond their current state. Finally, battles can be determined based on player skill more than who has the higher hit rate or dodge rate. Sure, there are still statistics that will unbalance fights a bit, but I imagine it will be quite a bit less significant than in most MMOs. At least, that's my hope.

Also, if implemented well, I do like the idea of "prestige classes", which to me, look more like organizations you might join and be granted some form of power in return for a special service you perform for the organization or oaths you take upon joining. Seems like it has potential to really add to the world.

I also appreciate that you can't really mess up a build, as you can always work on improving aspects of your character that need improvement by changing your playstyle, and prestige class choices aren't permanent.

All in all, looks solid, and I have some high hopes for it despite a few issues I have with a couple design choices they made.

A note on open-ended PvP. I played Age of Conan a couple of months after release and it has a very loosely regulated PvP system. Very restricted untill you hit level 20. From there on, most areas are PvP zones except the "Hubs" such as cities where you do trading and such. The thing is though. I liked it. Being ambushed and fighting someone off or simply escaping and then taunting them does give a sense of accomplishemnt and is really fun. Being ambushed and defeated fills you with lust for vengeance, so the first thing you do is hit up your tracking skill, track them down, and pull an ambush on them. Again, it was really fun. That said, the tracking skill is a luxury exclusive to Rangers, which I happened to play. So the satisfaction of revenge may just be outside your reach if you're playing any other class. Just thought I'd share that information.
EDIT: I also observed a funny phenomenon, it's that people who got ganked in the past adopt "super-hero" personalities. That is, if they observe someone being ambushed, they'll step in to help the victim, then stating something along the lines of "Gankers pissed me off aswell."

I definitely agree with you Sirlin on the unrestricted PvP bit.

The reason I'm not worried about it too much as of now is because they have a system in place which does punish people who PvP in particular manners with evil points, which will make the game harder for people into grief style play. I've found most games that have unrestricted PvP but temper it with an evil point system of some kind tend to not have much PvP happening in them. Whether that's the case with this game or not remains to be seen though.

As for the fps style combat, while it might not be the ideal way to implement the combat system, I think it's a whole lot better than the current system used by most MMORPGs. I've been waiting for an MMO that lets me dodge or block an opponent based on my own actions rather than our stats deciding it all.

Either way, it's a moot point for me for now, as I won't pay a monthly fee for a game. I'd rather get another four or five extra new games every year instead. I do think it's nice to see them really breaking away from the standard MMO formula though, even though I don't like all of their choices (like being able to loot, or be looted by, other players). This is the kind of stuff that will change the genre for the better, since it will bring new ideas to the table, and get other people interested in trying them out in their own ways, with their own tweaks to the system.

I agree from a purely competitive standpoint. But obviously, if you have open ended PvP areas, such as in AoC, then PvP in those areas should not be the main method of testing PvP skill. Read: It should not be very rewarding or as rewarding as PvP in an Arena setting. Or areas "tailored for competitive play". Also, AoC gave stealth to all classes. So everyone could just "hide" if they needed to go make a sandwich. Friendly NPC's would also aid you if you were attacked by another player nearby.

I am for PvP regulation, atleast to some degree (how much, I'm not certain). I'm not sure what counter-measures Darkfall has implemented since they have NO forced regulation. But no counter-measures, I must agree, does sound like a bad idea. Still, I'm more interested in the OTHER mechanics. Such as no levels or class restrictions. Darkfall will act as an interesting prototype for these ideas if nothing else.

What exactly are playable frame rates?

Although that iffy complaint aside and the looting business. I'd love to play it.

It seems to be a little stronger on RPs than other MMORPGs, and I like the idea of playing as a diplomat or as a thief that actaully steals things from places, not just a pick pocket skill. (this was one of the drawing things of Morrowwind)

Open PvP guarantees one thing: average player age: 13.
Dexterity-based combat (FPS-like aiming) over intelligence-based combat (mathematical formulae) guarantees the same thing.

Both together?
Best case scenario: average player age: 8.
Worst case scenario: universe implosion from too many languages being butchered by local variations of "i pwn j00z!!!!!!111!11!!!1 LOLZroflcopterlmao u SUXXORZ!!!!!111!!!!111"

Actually, both are likely to happen, with the first item causing the second.

Of course, and that is why they love it. Anyone can win, just bring enough players and run away when they outnumber you. Gank people while they are trying to trade or stuck talking to NPCs for easy kills. This style of PvP has always been a format for the scrub players and revolves entirely around them making their own rules (zerging doesn't count, using potions doesn't count ect.)

Darkfall has always read like a bad game designed to prey on players who get excited about FFA pvp.

Sounds like real life warfare, huh?

I like world pvp. So many variables of excitement or frustration awaiting your way at any moment.

Well... Yes.

I view this game as really being more about guild vs. guild than player vs. player. A lot of MMORPGs claim to be, but this is the first I've seen that has a system that really supports it (and rewards it).

All it will take is one guild to get their act together and become an organized fighting force that establishes a well defended territory, and other guilds will be forced to do the same.

I know that there's an Eve Online thread below this one and that I haven't done a whole lot of research on Darkfall in a long time, but would pulling something off of THIS nature be possible?

I couldnt figure this out after reading it so, I just decided to ask: What exactly is bad about this?

I'd rather have a dexterity test than the near total lack of both dexterity and strategy in most MMOs.

Try competitive WoW arena. Try making it past 2k rating. You will find it requires a respectable amount of dexterity, and a lot of strategy.

I have to disagree here in regards to dexterity. Yes, WoW arena certainly requires alot of strategy, and most importantly situational awareness, but I dont see how you can consider it to require a great deal of dexterity. Due to the GCD, the fastest you have to move your fingers (besides certain abilities that are off the GCD, like interrupts) is 1 second at a time (plus movement and camera adjusting). I dont think the amount of dexterity is comparable to really just about any other competitive game.

How long do you have to work a job of grinding to be competitive in this competitive game? Alternatively, how much do you have to shell out for in RMT to be competitive? Assuming you're starting the game from scratch?

As of right now, pvp gear isnt available (the arena season hasnt started yet, it starts next week). Once the arena season begins, it will probably take about 6-10 hours of grinding (conservative estimate). This is, of course, assuming level 80. Starting from scratch? Much longer (atleast 7 days of time played to reach level 80. You can knock off about 3 or 4 days from that if you use the recruit a friend and dualbox. But that requires two accounts, so its effectively RMT). I have no idea what that kind of time translates into for RMT.

Despite all of that, the game still requires an immense amount of strategy, awareness, and coordination once you are finished with the grind. The game is quite deep. Not that that excuses the grind.

However, I should mention, they will inevitably open the tournament realms again. Once those are open it requires exactly 0 grind to be competitive. On the tournament realms, all gear and extra's are available immediately, as are all level 80 characters of your choice. The highest levels of competition takes place on the tournament realm (generally speaking, the live realm competitive scene disappears when the tournament realm is open).

This tournament realm sounds like the kind of thing that might make WoW interesting. I still wouldn't shell out $10-$15/month for it (I wouldn't shell out a monthly payment for any game though), but at least I could say it might be worth playing. Why'd they ever take the tournament realms down though? To me, they sound like something that should always be available.

Well, technically there purpose is to act as a qualifying ladder for the official Blizzard tournament. As of right now, there's not another Blizzard tournament planned (although presumably they'll be one at the next blizzcon, whenever they decide to have that happen). Most people have expressed that they wish Blizzard would just host the tournament realm full time.

Also, independent organizations who host WoW (like the ESL) have their own tournaments realms. But I believe those are invite only.

I would try it, but you have to play a boring game first before you even have a chance.

Heh, I've never had someone play WoW for there first time and call it boring while levelling up. Most people either get hopelessly addicted to levelling or they realize that they are getting addicted and force themselves to stop.

Its levelling a second (or 3rd, or 4th, or ...) character that gets boring. It sucks that to try a different class you have to go through that tedium.

Addiction -> Fun?

I tried WoW a couple times. Really did. My friend kept on pushing me to give it a chance. So I did. I just got bored doing the quests. I mean, seriously, when I found myself having to spend about 2 straight hours killing the same damn creature just to farm for a certain item, I just couldnt' go on playing. It's just too boring.

Maybe I didn't pick the right character (human paladin), or maybe I'm just not built for this type of game, but I really didn't care much for it.

I was having this discussion last night with some friends. I brought up that there's really nothing wrong with leveling. People enjoy "popping bubble wrap", whether it putting points in stats until they're maxed, checking off skills, quests, whatever.

But I don't enjoy mindless bubble wrap. I play games to engage my mind.

Based on the accounts of my friends, there seems to be a fun game in the "endgame" of WoW. I'd like to experience that fun. But before I could even try it, I'd have to spend X amount of money and X amount of time doing work just to be allowed into the endgame (what many people refer to as the "real game").

And if I do all that work and spend all that time, what if the endgame isn't fun? Now I'm just in an abusive relationship with Blizzard, where I give them money and get nothing fun in return, but I feel compelled to stay and "get my money's worth".

This is one reason that I play games, but sometimes I enjoy mindless bubble wrap too. Bringing a dude's fishing skill from 1 to 20 is fun!

Here's my point, you'll realize very quickly if the game is really work or not to you. For the vast majority of people (I've referred about 20 people to the game, maybe 2 or 3 which didnt enjoy the leveling experience), you have quite a bit of fun. Think of it like this: Most people consider god of war fun. There are parts in God of war where you have to kill X amounts of enemies to progress to the next part. This is functionally identicle to quests in WoW that require X amount of kills (or X amount of a drop resulting from kills). The concept of killing things over and over isnt fun, UNLESS the act of killing things is fun.

The act of killing things in WoW, for many people, is fun (just like God of War). As such, these "grinds" dont really feel like grinds, because your engaged and enjoying yourself. All the while, your learning the complex mechanics of a fairly deep game (which is probably where a good bit of the fun stems from, for many people. Learning new things is typically fun).

The perception to people who have never played the game that these grinds arent fun, in my experience, is influenced by veteran players. Veteran players, like myself, have done this Ad Nauseum if you've leveled more than one character. As a result, what was once a fun experience is no longer a fun experience because we've done it too much. Going back to my God of War comparison, God of War is great, but if I had to play it for 6 hours a day, every day that fun experience would get boring and tedious. But if its your first time playing the game, odds are you'll love it.

Here's the point for new players: This tedium only applies to veteran players. Your first run through the game will, more often than not, be very enjoyable and engaging. And if the game isnt fun, you'll recognize it right away, and so you dont have to waste your time on it. Not all games are for everyone, afterall.

So ultimately, it isnt work to get to the deep part of the game (the end game). It becomes work when you choose to try out a different class, but thats a different issue entirely.

Also, your comparison to bubble wrap can be applied to all games. Even the most competitive and complex games are ultimately just popping bubble wrap. Your not accomplishing anything. Unless, of course, you consider getting better at a game (even if the game itself leads to nothing) an accomplishment. In which case, leveling in WoW is also an accomplishment since you are improving your understanding of the game at each level.

and hey, even I like to pull up solitaire every so often.

the problem is though, for me, even as a newbie, the grinding was boring in WoW. Maybe I just wasn't in a solitaire mood that day, but I just got really bored.

Ouch you picked a paladin plus you didn't bother moving on to another quest that annoyed the hell out of you?

You still owe me 19/20 bottles of zombie piss. Keep farming.

well, yeah, cuz I got bored on the first quest. Now, granted, I don't consider myself the personality type that is most suitable for this type of MMO, but that is my own experience. plus, I picked paladin because that's what my friend recommended as a n00b friendly class.

Not to attack your preference or anything, but it sounds like you didnt give the game a chance. The very first quest (the first 10 or so, actually) take less than 1 minute to complete (less than 30 seconds, in some cases). I dont think i've ever played a game that I can make a true decision if I enjoy it based on 30 seconds of gameplay.

Also, each class plays radically differently.

Your friend lied. IMO paladin is just behind shaman and tied with druid for worst class to start out as, at least solo. If you level with a buddy it isn't so bad but for me Paladin was blatantly a support class without anyone to support. Hunters are the "traditional" solo class.

But it's like Diablo 2. Switch classes 'till you find one that sticks. For me it was priest that I found most enthralling, with a rogue as my secondary.

well, the first quest that I took on took a good hour because it asked me to go kill goblins in a mine shaft.

Yeah, I'll admit it, I probably didn't give it a fair chance because I probably DID pick the wrong class or the wrong quest to start on. Like I said though, I don't consider myself the ideal personality to play MMOs. I simply don't have the ability to dedicate the time nor the patience now a days to try out different combinations and all that.

Nope, it's not the same in WoW as it is in God of War. In God of War, I get to do more than rely on my stats to win while occasionally clicking. I actually get to dodge enemy attacks, and enemies will try to dodge me. If I hit, it's due to recognizing the pattern of the enemy attacks and punishing them with that information, and if I die, it's because I didn't dodge well enough or take out enough enemies quickly, not because my stats are too low.

It's not just veterans of WoW who tire of grinding. By the time I hit somewhere in the level 10-15 range on my first character ever, I was already bored with leveling and the quest structure and all of that. Maybe I didn't give the game a fair shake, but honestly, if I'm not having fun with it after a few days, then I've wasted enough time on it. I judge other games by that standard, and MMOs aren't above that standard just because they're a different genre.

Thats your opinion on the fighting system then. It doesnt invalidate my point. Re-read what I said. Most importantly, if you enjoy the battle system its not a grind. Conversely, it is a grind if you dont enjoy the battle system. Thats a matter of taste. You cant empirically prove that God of War's fighting system is more engaging or fun than WoWs.

I would say thats a fair time to play the game and decide if you like it. Obviously you didnt enjoy the battle system, and you recognized it quickly (within the time a free trial account would allow). So, this reinforces my point that you will find out before you are at a great loss (or, actually, at no loss in the case of WoW trial accounts) if you will enjoy the game. The amount of time it would take you to get to level 10-15 is easily within the time the free trial accounts allow.

My point was that it's different precisely because of the different fighting systems. You kill things over and over in both, but I actually find that fun with God of War's system and quite boring with WoW's. However, as you say, empirically there is no proof of which is more fun. That's why we all share our opinions on games and what makes them good or bad instead.

I agree, the free trial is plenty of time to decide for most people. There will be exceptions to that, but in general, most people will play enough on their own during the ten days to find out if WoW is for them.

Good sir, I must challenge this statement. The grind part of WoW, which I pre-emptively will define as a task with these conditions:
- Performing the task requires little skill, you know you will be able to finish it with little challenge.
- Time is the main investment it requires from you.

As a general rule, this task will not:
- give the player a sense of accomplishment from performing the task (though, he may be satisfied with the reward, the task itself was not fun).
- produce the feeling of flow/escapism as the task, is not challenging/stimulating enough for the players mind.

I will thus postulate that such a type of grind is almost universally not fun, and even less so in the long run.

Combat in any RPG system is just playing the odds. The best way to level up to not to fight the most challenging monsters, but the ones you will most likely not lose to. You'll fight, what, 100 mobs for each time you die? That's because you choose your own challenge level, except it isn't even really challenge. The fight is decided before it starts, because of stats.

Comparing a "fight" in WoW to a fight in God of War, is not a comparison at all.

All you do in Street Fighter is fight over and over, and never get anything for it. You don't get a reward for beating a map in TF2, or beating a scenario in Starcraft either.

What is the standard EverQuest-style MMORPG doing wrong, that it needs external rewards to get you to play the actual "game" part?

But this is basically my point. You are punished for going for anything outside your stat level. It has nothing to do with your skill or strategy, thus it isn't fun. Also, you seem to have a pre-defined notion of how an RPG system ought to function. What you can compensate for with technical skill and strategy in WoW is extremely little, but it doesn't have to function this way. Other RPG's I can point to for examples of this are: Mass Effect or Fable. Other RPG's such as Chrono Trigger and Pokemon let you compensate almost only with strategy despite stat differences, but it lets you compensate alot.

You're talking to the wrong person if you're talking to me. I haven't played God of War, but I can assume that the actual combat there is much more engaging than in a purely stat based one, which is what I'm getting at.

That's my point, but where are you going with this, it seems you're just basically repeating what I've said. Your reward in these games is seeing your name on the top of the list when you press TAB or access the leaderboards. It's knowing that you defeated another person through superior dexterity/strategy. It's knifing someone and feeling good about it because you know that this was a challenging thing to do. Your BRAIN is rewarding you (well, it's always just the brain, but it isn't triggered by extrinsic rewards(Did I even use that term correctly?)). The game is just confirming it for you that: You're good.

The actual "game", isn't engaging, nor rewarding enough.

EDIT: adited 4 gud gremmer adn tipos

I wasn't disagreeing with you, I just wanted to have your post visible as it illustrated a lot of my points. Add a big, "I agree, and here's why:" to the beginning of my post.

I wasn't at all saying I think WoW combat is fun. I don't. I was ceding the point to Banewlf that it can't be proven one way or the other, since I don't think proof is worth arguing about when we could be talking about the elements we think make a good game instead. After all, I know a number of people who say they enjoy this, though why they do is beyond my comprehension. I also said in that statement we should still say what we think makes games good and bad... that's the whole point of the discussion after all.

I actually agree with you on what you on your reasoning as to why WoW isn't fun though. The grind is why I never stick with any MMO for very long... as is the monthly fee for games that have it.

Although I have no evidence other than that I assume people won't find grind, as I defined it (I may have relied on my intuition a bit too much as "proof" here), fun, I would hypothesize that such evidence is not impossible to obtain. For example, I could poll a group of MMO player and try to filter out what they really think hooks them on the game.

Although I can imagine that people would be quick to say that it is indeed the challenges and feel of the game that hooks them, there's this idea in emotional psychology, that says the cause of an emotion is not consciously known by the person, only consciously interpreted, which causes me to believe they might be wrong regardless. They may ACTUALLY play and enjoy the game for social reasons, but they will not realize that and simply state that the gameplay is great... If that made sense.

I think the success of PopCap games suggests that the demand for "light" games is not limited to MMOs.

If anything, the fact that the game doesn't require much attention of you is a boon: Sometimes it's nice to come home from a hard day's work, sit down and kill stuff for a few hours without thinking about it too hard.

That makes sense to me. I came to that realization not too long ago when I found an MMORPG I enjoyed for awhile. The thing is, I enjoyed it because I was playing on a LAN in the same room with others who were also playing, and that social aspect made it fun for awhile. However, playing that way for too long a time just wasn't sustainable, and got to be a drain on our time to do other things, so I stopped playing, and soon after, the interest of the others also tapered off.

MMORPGs can be fun socially, but honestly, I'd still rather play a fighter, side-scrolling shooter like Contra, or even take turns playing a platformer with friends than play an MMO socially. The social aspect is still there with the other games, and the gameplay itself is more fun, which, for me, leads to a much better experience.

Also note that typing in the chatbox of an MMO doesn't count as being social to me. It's much easier to chat over aim if I want to use a text-based messaging service than to chat and play a subpar game at the same time, and it's still much more fun to actually be with friends in person.

You realize that you are sort of contradicting yourself here. If you consider "sitting down and killing stuff" relaxing or it makes you forget the real world, then the game IS able to grab enough attention and focus from you that you won't divert focus to "thinking too hard" about everything else around you.

Tetris is a good example, it's randomness produces new challenge every time. You must assess the situation and make a decision each time a new block appears. I wouldn't have a hard time imagining that this could grab enough focus to cause the feeling of flow or escapism. The decisions may only take split seconds to make, but they are constantly new.

My assertion, is that generally, MMO's don't require that same level of focus from you, or atleast, don't do it aswell as other games.

EDIT: Thinking more about tetris, after playing for an extended amount of time, you may recognize several patterns and situations and then the decisions become less challenging... Wonder if people who are really good at Tetris think like that. Tetris does increase speed and force you to react faster as time progresses though. Increasing the challenge once you've gotten "into it".

I, er, what? I'm having difficulty parsing this. When I said "thinking too hard" I'm referring to thinking about what to do in-game. It's a deliberately low-impact activity that doesn't heavily penalize you for making a mistake and, with a few exceptions, encourages you to move at a slow pace.

You mention the "challenge" of Tetris and, to me, challenge is about as far away from the point of a grind as can possibly be. Grinding is something I can log on, do for fifteen minutes, a half-hour, make some progress, and if I so choose move on to a higher-impact activity (5-man dungeon, PvP, or even another game).

Compare to an FPS like TF2. If you're doing badly in TF2, it can be emotionally draining and all kinds of frustrating, and some days it just doesn't feel worth it. WoW is a walk in the park in comparison and while you tend not to have the same emotional highs (rare world drops aside) there aren't nearly as many lows and they're not nearly so bad.

well, here's the thing, I can always sit down and grind away at solitaire for a while if I really need a break. But let's face it, how many games of solitaire can I play before I get bored of it? 2? 3? and a game of solitaire is what, 10-15 minutes each? So you're talking about 30-45 minutes of relaxation vs. several hours of grinding. Kind of a different experience here.