Don't Look Back

Discussion in 'Now Playing' started by infernovia, Apr 18, 2012.

  1. specs

    specs Well-Known Member

    There's sexual tension here and it's making me uncomfortable. This is saying a lot because you're reading this in syndicated American Link's voice because of my avatar and he was a total horndog.

    I will return once things have settled down and the 69 sessions have gone from the sounds of slurp noises to the gentle hum of sweet caresses.
  2. Kayin

    Kayin Well-Known Member

    Holy fuck I'm totally going to blow a gasket here

    Well, when you make a narrow minded little strawman, nope! But when you make dumbfuck strawmans like that, you just piss me off. The type of story telling that the, and other games, try to do is new. Is story telling new? Is 'saying something' new? Not really. But they're doing it in a different, more focused way. Is this necessarily good or important or whatever? No, nope! Being avante-garde doesn't mean you're good! It means you're probably crap that'll be forgotten about!

    Now you can go post some shit from IcyCalm's Autism-and-Wankery hug box, saying people don't get it or are clueless dumb fools or whatever, throwing around nietzsche quotes to sound important. But I'm from the real world and have no time for that circlejerk bullshit. We do know these little games resonate with people. Not you, and not really me, but whatever. That means there is something there to learn. Something that's different from other games. Maybe not even massively different! But enough that you wanna take notice if your head isn't embedded in your own ass.

    This frustrates the piss out of me, because like specs says, I WANT to think of you as the awesome Castlevania guy. But then you say dumbshit, clueless stuff that shows you have no perspective. You're just in your own little box, thinkin' stuff you like is the shizzle, and everything else is crap.


    You act bafflingly clueless in topics like this. You talk like someone who can only see 1/3rd of the picture. Maybe you want to still participate? That's cool. GET SOME HUMILITY. ASK SOME QUESTIONS. STOP THINKING YOU HAVE SOME SUPER CLEVER POINT TO MAKE, BECAUSE PROBABLY DON'T. CUT THE SWAGGER, YOU LOOK LIKE A FOOL. PULL UP YO PANTS, DAWG.

    Here's the deal. If your tastes and interests are super narrow, you need to have some fucking empathy to say something meaningful about games outside of that area. If you don't do that, you just come off as some self-entitled old fool who wants everything to be what he wants. Like a nastier version of Keith, basically (Keith, despite any criticism I might have of him, is at least criminally polite and untrollable). This is almost some fucking Dunning–Kruger shit here.

    HAVE SOME HUMILITY, HAVE SOME EMPATHY AND LOOSEN UP. Not everything is made for you or is made to be judged by your narrow standards... and lemme address one more thing before I stop yelling at you like a frothing, bitter mad man.

    This is your limitation, not mine. You can't be totally unbias -- that's impossible -- but by golly you can try! You can try and then learn things about stuff that would normally be 'beneath' you. But lets pretend you're right for a moment. Then your tastes and positions are so narrow and atypical that you barely have anything of value to say on any of these topics and should just shut the fuck up and stop wasting anyone's time. You're just the error margin and are no use to anyone. So you can either shape up have the potential to shape up, or be forever doomed to have nothing but dumb shit to say about 95% of topics. So if you truly believe that, stop wasting my fucking time. I have no interest in broken men.


    Also VVVVVV isn't Avant-Garde, it's iterative design, obviously, and that's why I actually like it compared to Don't Look Back. Iteration is fun and safe and a place to alchemize old ideas and polish them up or modify them a bit. I try not to value innovation much on a game-to-game level. It's important for the industry as a whole, but it novelty is a cheap thrill. Innovative ideas a good not because they're "new", but because they're "good" and having more good mechanics to play with is great. It's like with Braid -- it's not that you can rewind time, it's that the game and how the mechanics and puzzles work is arguably super fucking good. It's a polished idea. Whether or not PoP or maybe even some other game came first doesn't matter.

    Now excuse me, I need to go bang my head against a wall and drown my sorrow in chemicals or something
    zem, Polari, link6616 and 5 others like this.
  3. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

    Kayinn, lofobal asked me if his post is a little too passive aggressive and I said yes.

    I know you didn't ask me to comment, but I feel that your post is a little too passive aggressive as well, could you tone it down please?
    Lofobal likes this.
  4. Kayin

    Kayin Well-Known Member

    You're contributions are worthless and not worth my time.

    No. Fuck off.

    edit: wait wait wait. PASSIVE aggressive? I don't think there was a single passive thing about that post.
    Lofobal likes this.
  5. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    Actually, unless you consider yourself on a new level on evolution that should not be considered homo sapiens anymore, you will have to recognize there is something good in there that make millions of others homosapiens enjoy it more than X.

    Notice you could counter my point by using the word "venerate" but notice I will ignore you used it as Kayinn never talked about venerating those stuff.

    I'm going to comment on the whole thing:
    I'm not sure what your complain is? But it seems similar to Insomnia, that some games are overrated or given properties that they lack. However many of those games are still pretty good to a lot of people, even those who don't overrate it.

    And what do I mean with overrating it? I mean giving games properties that they don't have in first place, or exaggerating or changing those values.
  6. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

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  7. Kayin

    Kayin Well-Known Member

    I am too angry to detect sarcasm. ;_;

    But no, seriously, I gotta chill. Obscura might like it when I'm angry, but I do not. If I keep it up, 95% of my posts will consist of the word "fuck" instead of 50%.

    Also I love you, Waterd.
    link6616 likes this.
  8. specs

    specs Well-Known Member

    Is this, like, a joke? Because in this post alone there are like seven different points you absolutely don't articulate, while Kayin's did.

    Since you missed the entire point of what he said, I'll fill you in. He said these developers are trying to do something different, despite some core ideas not being new.

    How fair would saying this be: "Castlevania is a piece of shit. What's so great about it? I can get challenging platforming in Mario. I can get mechanics where I defeat enemies while doing said platforming in Mario. Hell I even have demonic fire breathing monsters in Mario. Castlevania is a fucking joke, and IT'S SERIOUSLY GOING TO RUIN GAMING AS WE KNOW IT."

    The way you're posting, I could put "-- Obscura" at the end of that, and no one would know the difference.

    I KNOW you're thinking about all the ways Castlevania isn't like Mario. I'm aware it is, and that's the entire point here. If your criticism of Don't Look Back is "it looks like an Atari game and has platforming based on a central theme, what garbage," you're saying something really, really dumb.

    I don't subscribe to, as one needs to in order to read their articles, but I can see the preview snippets.

    On Bastion: "Make your own difficulty" sounds great as a selling point to those rotten sons of bitches in marketing who insist that videogames ought to become mere commodities, able to be bested by any nitwit with two brain cells to rub together, but once again, we must remember that the devil is both a liar and a motherfuck."

    This tells me someone played the game, took offense to the ability to customize difficulty based on preference, and is now really angry because of it. The same kind of imbecile who actually wants fighters to include tons of 1-frame links, because "they don't want the masses to learn the game."

    On Rage: "The fact that a game of this quality is competing for the same dollars as inane garbage like Bird Swipe and Farm Fuck ought to make the executives at these companies — executives who have gone on record as being interested in nothing but the bottom line, not even a little — fall on their swords."

    This tells me someone has the wit of an elementary schooler (HOLY SHIT "FARM FUCK" HE IS THE NEXT ELVIS) and can't see that Angry Birds -- what I assume he's referring to by "Bird Swipe" -- is actually a carefully crafted and well made game.

    On Duke Nukem Forever: "After 14 years, Duke Nukem Forever is more than a mere game. It is an idea. It is a promise once made, now kept."

    I have no idea what this means, but if I look at any more I'm going to punch my own face until the right combination of internal bleeding and fractured bones gives me the sweet release of blindness.

    That's all I can take, of that site and your post. You're in the wrong here. And it's not because of what you (dis)like.
  9. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    If you ask what don't look back tries to do imo, that does pretty different, is to try to touch on the feelings that the old greek history wanted to touch, with minimal information. The game tries to use minimalistic approach, and it has minimal detail, minimal text. With a combinations of some visual, some storytelling, music and colors, tries to invoke the same feelings of sadness, regret and probably some related to the attachment.
    Have in mind that the game doesn't work for anybody, you need certain cultural reference to be evoked by those feelings.
    Maybe I have a low knowledge of games, but I don't know of many old games that tried to do that.
    It's funny that you named atari 2600, because in fact some of those things can be found partially in 2600 games, even if forced by the lack of graphic power and complete lack of text.

    However, most atari games, as far as I know didn't try to take advantage of that, for storytelling purposes. Don't look back, does. However what Don't look back does different actually is not "storytelling" But it just goes straight to evoking the feelings, in fact it also goes minimalistic with the storytelling part.

    Using minimalistic approach to evoke some feelings that minimalistic approach helps to evoke, is not new though, and It's a good opportunity to call back on one of my favorite games that is based on the same thing, that is out of this world.

    And It reminds that Out of this world designer complained when some remakes of the game were done and added more detailed and realistic graphics as background (I would say more beatifull too) some added music and added more cinematics.

    And he complained because he agreed that while those were better in some senses, it just missed the point of the atmosphere the game tried to achieve.
  10. specs

    specs Well-Known Member

    Is that actually true? Rhetorical question. But perhaps this concept of "new" is being confused.

    I'm going to give an example wearing my "aspiring screenwriter" hat, and hope its meaning is clear here too: one year, at the Screenwriting Expo in LA -- actually *every* year at that expo -- I'm told by the various lecturers and pitch-takers and dudes-what-know-the-game that there are no "new" movies, just new takes on the old.

    No joke: you can take every movie made since, say, I dunno, 1981, and factor it down to its inspirations and spiritual family members. Every one. This doesn't, in and of itself, make any movie uninteresting, boring, or otherwise bad, regardless of whether or not you hold the very valid opinion that Movie X doesn't interest you because it's too much like Movie Y.

    It also doesn't, by virtue of being what it is, make any film "not new."

    When I crafted that Castlevania quote, I was playing the character of "guy who doesn't know what he's talking about but really likes the sound of his own voice." And that character's words have little grains of truth, yes, but he's ultimately talking out his ass. That Castlevania's theme of "balance jumping with attacking" is similar to Super Mario Bros. ultimately means jack squat when assessing Castlevania's worth. Castlevania succeeds by its own merits. As does Megaman. And Gears of War, where you replace "jumping" with "defense." And Braid, where you replace "attacking" with "understanding how time manipulation works in a particular set of levels."

    Similarly, that Spider-Man had natural webbing in Sam Raimi's film adaptations, or that Naruto was taken out of continuity to focus on developing some aspect of his character in the Naruto OAVs, don't in and of themselves mean those adaptations/OAVs are of lesser worth. Anyone making the argument that, say, Iron Man sucks because Obadiah Stane's son doesn't exist in film continuity is failing to understand that particular thing means jack squat.

    So if you want to slam Don't Look Back, do it for valid reasons. "It fails to live up to its theme, and here's why:" is a good start. "It looks like an Atari 2600 game and does things other games have done for years!" isn't.

    Those preview snippets scared me off. Especially the Bastion one. And I'm not just saying that because I love Bastion.
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  11. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    The Zen master Hakuin was praised by his neighbours as one living a pure life.

    A beautiful Japanese girl whose parents owned a food store lived near him. Suddenly, without any warning, her parents discovered she was with child.

    This made her parents angry. She would not confess who the man was, but after much harassment at last named Hakuin.

    In great anger the parent went to the master. "Is that so?" was all he would say.

    After the child was born it was brought to Hakuin. By this time he had lost his reputation, which did not trouble him, but he took very good care of the child. He obtained milk from his neighbours and everything else he needed.

    A year later the girl-mother could stand it no longer. She told her parents the truth - the real father of the child was a young man who worked in the fishmarket.

    The mother and father of the girl at once went to Hakuin to ask forgiveness, to apologize at length, and to get the child back.

    Hakuin was willing. In yielding the child, all he said was: "Is that so?"
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  12. 2000 IQ Killjoy Gamer link6616

    2000 IQ Killjoy Gamer link6616 Well-Known Member


    I don't mean to take the topic too far off here, but one of the active complaints seems to be in the graphics quality...
    In a free experimental game?


    My understanding is that these kinds of graphics used in don't look back are quick and cheap to make, enabling effective experimentation with minimal loss, I wouldn't be too worried about those.

    I'm tempted to talk about the thematic issues here, but based on my readings of other obscura posts, I'm not really sure he would care about theme in any game.

    This have encouraged me to play it

    So, 15 minutes later

    I actually found very quickly that the aesthetic was actually interesting. What things were was nicely and clearly communicated, and the score (which totally didn't fit in mainly because it wasn't chip) really grabbed me when used.

    Gamewise, yeah, it's ok. I can see a lot of little ways I might improve it, I dislike the bosses (I gave on the 2nd one as I didn't really care enough)

    What's it's doing, attempting to invoke mood and feeling is also not new. However it was interesting. While I was playing it I enjoyed that aspect. Now this isn't for everyone, I love adventure games, visual novels. One of my favourite series is The Longest Journey.

    And sure, 'all games say something' or 'invoke emotion' but the amount of effort enforced to make theme is what makes DLB interesting... Admittedly, I would probably use other games as a better example for this myself. Such as the polygon style of Another World (Out of this World to many of you) really helped it feel alien... However, Another World could be if you were being vicious, described as the first of the cinematic adventures we have today. Although in my mind it was probably the first 'art' game we really had.

    I'm not going to say Don't Look Back is a good game though. The fact I gave up on before finishing it because I did not care enough to defeat a boss. So I didn't even get far enough to see it's central idea play out.

    However, these complaints are assuming DLB is a fully fledged and realised game as opposed to just a test that the dev thought the public might take interest in. Taken that way, it does show that it's ideas can work. Sure, it failed a little bit. I would have thought perhaps puzzle platformer over action platformer approach might have been more interesting. Or possibly a vector based first person perspective if we wanted to keep the retro feel.

    The game DLB reminded me most of was Swords and Sworcey on iOS and now PC if I recall correctly. A very minimal aesthetic (although when you actually look at SaS you'll probably find it wasn't to cut down on production, as it is some of the best graphics of that style I've seen). Which really did a fantastic job of creating a just a feeling. Wonder, interest, curiosity.

    Anyway, to prevent going to far off topic here, the long and short is that DLB is a great experiment, more games trying to do things that aren't purely mechanical is good. More games trying to do anything either done less now, or not often done is good!

    Also, having just noticed this

    Minimalism in and of itself doesn't evoke anything... but neither does text and 'actual graphics' In terms of games though, minimalism makes development much easier, and for experimentation much preferable, and ultimately is asking the player/viewer to think about the imagery that is used more.

    In a minimalist style for movies, music, painting, photography, you are attempting to communicate as much as possible with as little as you can. This means the choice of what to use must have importance, the use of less 'clutter' in the work those usually leads to a more clear and singular feeling, if done well.

    Minimalism is a very broad style that doesn't really have a lot of thematic ties. Surrealism, the Sublime, neo-classical, Dadaism they are about themes as well as having a kind of aesthetic style (sometimes anyway, Dadaism probably less so). And as such minimalism can really be used to communicate most feelings just as much as any grander style. It's just the artists choice to use that tool.
  13. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    Are you asking me a Game design question or a psychological question? I will have to infer the second, I'm not psychology so it's the same level of question as "Why X made us laugh" WTF DO I KNOW? But it does.
    Here is my wild guess though. Minimalism helps because many of it's properties are related to humans to things that are nostalgic , sad or reflective. Imagine i do a psychology test and I make humans relate the named words to Those feelings, which do you think people will choose?

    -A lot/ A little.
    -Many/ Few.

    A busy screen will evoke more active feelings than a non-busy screen.

    Also minimalistic approach makes the one that interact with the medium feel a little less protected and lost. Which is not the same though that overwhelmed and confused

    Maybe, maybe not. But it seems is easier and more effective with the first approach , in my experience in both games and films. Many of the films that try to evoke this emotions , and that at least accomplish it on me and others that I know have less dialogue, less narrative and less definition of what's actually going on.

    yeah, ok that is not important.
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  14. 2000 IQ Killjoy Gamer link6616

    2000 IQ Killjoy Gamer link6616 Well-Known Member

    ... Kind of a different scale... I love Silent Hill 2 aswell, I also found corpse party amazingly effective at conveying horror and stress with rather terrible 16 bit graphics. But like people are saying here, Don't Look Back is hardly a best game of all time like Silent Hill 2 is, that doesn't mean it's without worth.
  15. rozencrantz

    rozencrantz Active Member

    I see this as being in the same basic category as Hero's Adventure and Passage, maybe just because of my background I saw these games and it seemed like the same sort of experimenting that some of the electronic music pioneers were doing, especially Steve Reich and John Cage. It isn't so much about trying to do something awesomely good and awesome as it's about trying to figure out the limits of the medium, like they just want to take the game down to one element to see if that is enough.

    Stuff like that can be pretty polarizing. I had a pretty powerful positive reaction to 4'33", and to Passage, both of which made a lot of people kinda bewilderingly angry. DLB just left me frustrated and uninspired, Hero's Adventure actually made me a little angry, but I know people who had a really strong positive reaction. I think it's good that these things are being made for the reasons Kayin stated, and also because something that polarizing I think is an opportunity to understand people in a way that you don't get very often. I've experienced a lot of avant-garde stuff that I couldn't stand until someone explained to me why they liked it, what they saw in it, and that opened me up to a whole different way of thinking about it.

    I think talking about how DLB fails as a game is missing the point, because what it does do well is pretty much totally independent of how it is presented. Maybe it could have been more moving to more people if it had been more polished, but what it does convey for the people who do pick up on it is just not related to its quality as a platformer. I think that disconnect for me is the most important and interesting aspect of the game.
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  16. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    I think this is slightly out of my boundaries. But what I mean with active and non-active feeling is that, we relate more action, activity and motion, with life, things working, things that make most human happy.
    On the other hand non-active is, well the opposite of that. People that are generally happy are more active, while the opposite tends to be true. I feel strange that I have to explain this as I thought most humans recognized this.

    Maybe? I barely played Silent hill 2, However in great part is that the whole premise is more complex. However it feels more like Alone in the dark than don't look back. Silent hill spends time in other stuff like managing inventory exploring uninteresting parts and sporadic, close to meaningless, fights. So maybe after several hours Silent hill does it better, don't look back takes 15 minutes, because it doesn't waste much time in irrelevant aspects to that.

    Well, If it's important to you, it is. I can't do much, It's not important to me. He can use an myth and take another approach of have another interpretation of what it means. It doesn't rest any value (in fact a case could be made that increases it). It seems that the metaphor suit many purposes. You could argue that the metaphor he chooses was not adequate to the intention, I would disagree though and is outside of the points discussed, what are we going to start talking about the mythology and what feelings provoke on the readers?. Fwiw (and it's not much) When I hear first the story years ago, It gave me not the idea to be about trust and temptation at all. If it's to you or most people , I don't know. What I know is that at least the interpretation of DLB, for what I talked and read, give not that impression either, so who cares?

    Don't be mistaken I don't say DLB is a great game, I would give it somewhere between 3/4 over 10 on my interest. And there are many things I dislike about the game, however I don't think it is without merit (otherwise I would just say its 1/10 or something). On the other hand, I could be surprised but I doubt I would look with much better eyes at silent hill 2 if i played it more
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  17. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    WHAT! No, you didn't, I've decided this for you. Rather the very notion that you can have a reaction to something that doesn't even exist is preposterous (what's actually happening is a reaction to something which is happening as an independent event). If you disagree, then you might want to check out this game I made.
    zem likes this.
  18. infernovia

    infernovia Well-Known Member

    I am going to change this to show how I read it. That disconnect isn't the most important or interesting part of the game. What people like is the 2 sec cutscene and some the allusion to Orpheus, this tells me that they would have liked it independent of the mechanics that brought it out into the world (aka, they like the story and the allusion). So whether it was a platformer or a 3D action game, it is irrelevant.

    This is not really that interesting to me! All of those things are stuff I could really care less about, especially when I implied before that I don't see it as a huge jump, or even an upgrade over stuff like Contra or Metal Slug or w/e. Now, it's fine if people really enjoy this, but since my original intention was trying to understand why people would consider this to have a deep connection between the mechanical and narration (which is now understood as the illusion of deep connection), I am simply going to leave this conversation as it really doesn't interest me.
    KayinN likes this.
  19. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    I think the actual answer about Minimalism is: It allows the viewer's imagination to fill in gaps. The less structure provided in the work itself, the more room there is for someone to apply a unique interpretation of both the setting and the plot.

    The downside of a minimalist approach is requires the viewer to both have previous applicable knowledge, and to be willing to make the effort to interpret things rather than assume a (purposely) incomplete work has no value. Clearly several people aren't willing to put in that effort...

    For people with that inclination, the minimalist works can have much greater impact. For example, with Silent Hill above... that game is straight psychological horror, it's just doing the standard "Look, here's some scary stuff, you should react to it". If you're intelligent enough to not fall for visual tricks, and don't feel moved by the story, well, you're done... it's kind of a binary on/off in terms of chance of emotional response. A game like DLB is just a seed for thought, though... which means it worked even on you nay-sayers because you're thinking about it a hell of a lot to even have this discussion.

    QFT on this, btw. The negativity on display is pretty awful.

    I asked this in another thread already, but seriously, what is your end-game scenario, Obscura? You're not convincing anyone of anything, just by means of your attitude, regardless of whether your content was good. And it's clear you're not actually interested in learning something new, you're already convinced your correct and just want to put forward your opinion. Where's the payoff? Are you just so narcissistic that you like getting in the way of other people's discussions while watching your post count go higher???
    zem likes this.
  20. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    I agree that claytus logic there isn't very good, at least for what i understand. If something is making you think or talk about it, it doesn't make it much less bad.
  21. infernovia

    infernovia Well-Known Member

    I don't think it's worthwhile to judge the amount of posts something generates with thinking. Thinking is something I do long before I write things.
  22. 2000 IQ Killjoy Gamer link6616

    2000 IQ Killjoy Gamer link6616 Well-Known Member

    Outside of the Wand (so the legend of link and the legend of zelda IIRC) they actually not that bad. I mean, they certainly aren't classics, and they have some rather horrible animation and so on, but they aren't as bad as I think you are implying.
  23. Kadir

    Kadir Well-Known Member

    One thing that is definitely good about this game is the sound. The game only has 4 colours iirc, so the use of different ambient noise (rain>none>FIRES OF HELL>none>rain) helps differentiate the "zones". The fact that it goes in a circle is pretty neat too and matches the rest of the game. The landing noise helps compensate for the sometimes ambigous floor. The shoot/hit noises are nice and punchy, although it's not like there's much of a choice here.

    The best part though, is the music. I don't think I've ever heard music done quite this way either before or since. For starters, it's based around a string quartet, which stands out from the chip music that these sorts of games usually use. There are technically four tracks, but really, because of the repetition of themes and slow layering of instruments, it comes across more like a single piece of music with long pauses between sections. It's a cool approach which I think is really suited well to small games like this.

    Overall, it's top notch work and I'd love to see more like it.

    This is not nice.

    The fact that you come here purely to waste time isn't bad by itself. Obviously, it's your time and you can do what you want with it. What is bad is that posting in such a worthless way you also waste the time of others.

    I come to this board because it has a few intelligent people who make me (slightly) smarter with what they write. I feel like I gain some value from visiting here. Not much, but still greater than zero. By posting like you do, you kinda dilute the concentration of smartness, which means I and other people like me get less value/time out of this board. Your own moral code probably says this is "slightly bad", unless you haven't really set out your morals in which case you will probably define wasting other people's time as "okay". You still don't really gain any value in either case.

    Given all this, I think you should stop posting the way you do. Either step up your game and contribute meaningfully (this is the best option!), or find another way to relieve your boredom.

    If you feel like mathing up, Khan Academy teaches at least up to calculus iirc. If math's not entertaining enough for you, Crash Course does world history and biology at a high schoolish level. Can't youtube for some reason? Try learning to play an instrument. Guitar is incredibly versatile and has an abundance of learning material for free online. Oh, but you're at work or somewhere where practicing would be inappropriate. Oh well! I doubt anyone is going to deny you access to pencil and paper. Take up drawing!

    You probably already know this, but talent is mostly a myth. The only thing stopping you from being good at these things is you. Instead of posting silly shit that is of no value to yourself and negative value to me, why not do something that will create value instead? Why not post different, or not at all?
  24. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    The problem is your logic is no better. You're acting like there's some zero-sum element to a player's ability to enjoy a game. Pretty much everything can contain merit (in terms of material goods). It's quite reasonable to talk about how one thing is better than another in the way Kayin describes. But there's really nothing gained by labelling something as bad in and of itself. I guess I learn about your personal preferences, but I don't really care, and it wasn't new information anyway.

    Although, I have to point out you still seem to need a reality check on this DLB issue. The Zelda CDi games have *not* spawned a giant discussion. Whereas this thread is actually a tiny tip of the iceberg on a mountain of threads and chat arguments stretching back to 2009. Of course anything is the same if you just construct a hypothetical scenario and assume it's true... but it's kind of worthless statement unless you actually have proof that it happened.
  25. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    In the time it takes you to queue for a day's worth of Starcraft matches you can beat Don't Look Back.
  26. rozencrantz

    rozencrantz Active Member

    So is the griping a way to kill time, or is your time too valuable to waste on pointless games? I'm confused now.
  27. 2000 IQ Killjoy Gamer link6616

    2000 IQ Killjoy Gamer link6616 Well-Known Member

    That assumes somewhat that all values are equal... I absolutely do not like Secret of Monkey island (doubled walking speed would make it infinitely better) and I have a rather extensive knowledge and love for the genre (although still haven't played grim fandango). I find Ghouls totally disinteresting for how punishing it is, for all the greatness I can see in starcraft I have no interest in it either. I mean, I could look at those and still be able to tell you why they are good, but I still dislike those titles.

    Not that I disagree that people are often playing things that think they are so good and amazing but aren't, and it takes a lot of playing to realise what is good and bad.

    But what I think it more interesting is that it takes a much deeper understanding to realise that sometimes games you would think are bad are actually able to be really good. My recent playing of Dragon Quest V, a series I have avoided because it's simplistic, grindy, minimal with it's story, has turned out to being one of my favourite RPGs, and I still can't quite work out what it is doing right when on the face of things it's doing practically everything wrong. Since realising this I've tinkered with a few other games that I was originally put off by for similar reasons and found them surprisingly enjoyable and just ignored mostly because the elements they have don't seem appealing when looked at by themselves, but work together much better then they should.
    Lemmingrad and rozencrantz like this.
  28. Kristoph, the Angel

    Kristoph, the Angel Well-Known Member

    the life expectancy in schopenhauer 's day was terrible anyway, not sure how relevant that quote is. ^_^

    also britney spears is pretty good. in all seriousness, I find that people who dismiss pop music out-of-hand like that are often stubborn classicists with little in the way of critical chops. not making any concrete point with this or anything, just something I found amusing/semi-appropriate.
    link6616 likes this.
  29. Kayin

    Kayin Well-Known Member

  30. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

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    Lofobal likes this.
  31. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    So you ARE just trolling. Not particularly surprised that it's true, but I will say that I didn't expect you to admit it.
  32. ibanezninja

    ibanezninja New Member

    Having strong, contrary opinions does not equal trolling. If he didn't actually believe what he was saying and was merely trying to get a rise out of everyone here, that would be trolling.

    As for Don't Look Back, I dislike it a lot. Not enough to rant about it for pages but yeah I played through it once and would be perfectly happy to never play though it again. Personally I believe if people want to learn to tell a story through a platformer with minimal cutscenes/text I feel like they should just study Super Metroid! But then again, most platformers could be improved if their designers studied Super Metroid more so I guess it kinda goes without saying.
  33. 2000 IQ Killjoy Gamer link6616

    2000 IQ Killjoy Gamer link6616 Well-Known Member

    ... What if super metroid is the antithesis of everything you like in a platformer?

    I personally love it, but you can easily find people who loath it.
  34. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    Oh yeah, missed it earlier. But yes, I was talking about the awesome version of the game, as opposed to the less awesome versions.
  35. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    If I considered Catherine a "platformer" with meaningful mechanics, would I be wrong? If so how far away from right am I?
  36. 2000 IQ Killjoy Gamer link6616

    2000 IQ Killjoy Gamer link6616 Well-Known Member

    I'd consider it a Puzzle/Adventure game (as opposed to an Adventure/Puzzle game like point and click adventures are) over platformer... But yeah, i'd say you are about right.

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