DoTA and DoTA 2

Discussion in 'Now Playing' started by Eji1700, Aug 16, 2011.

  1. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    With DoTA 2 coming out soon i've decided to create this so as not to keep hijacking the moba topic. I'll probably be playing some DoTA again on Bnet so if anyone's interested in some games hit me up. I'm Eji1700 on US east or west.

    As for DoTA 2, we have a trailer-
    http://www.dota2.com/trailer

    It's eh. I recognize the heavy's voice actor i believe, and I have to say I do really like the hero designs for this game.

    Edit:
    Hero reference site for those watching the tourney
    http://www.jordan-baker.com/dota2/
  2. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    I'll play if there's a team or inhouse game going. I'm Odias@Azeroth and Cossack@Lordaeron
  3. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Could you please change all instances of "DoTA" in the topic title to one of the following (in preferential order):
    • DotA
    • DOTA
    • dota
    • Dota

    Anyway yea, worthless trailer is worthless, waiting on real info.
  4. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Old habbits die hard and such.

    There's been some confirmed info. Namely hero's being near identical. Fully customizable key setups. Mana bars above hero's(allies only). And a few other UI things.
  5. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    I mentioned somewhere my concern for how things would be hotkeyed:

    http://i.imgur.com/vfIKQ.png

    No more concerns. There's a checkbox for 'legacy' setup which presumably changes from setting hotkeys based on location to setting based on ability (like original dota).
  6. Swiffle

    Swiffle Active Member

    Dota2 characters look hoooooorible to me.

    game looks like a bad dota clone.

    trailer was pretty bad, looked bad, sounded bad.
  7. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    Well they look better than Wc3 stock models. And the best part is that no one will care. They'll play it anyway...

    EDIT: Also a plus is that the trailer is at least done in-engine if not in-game. Better than those fake cinematic trailers.
  8. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    I personally don't care about hero models! I do however really like the lighting and clarity of terrain in DotA.
  9. acidile

    acidile Member

    ehhhh

    I played DOTA for many many years, in most of the good IHL's etc. I love the game to death, and think it's amazing. I've been looking forward to DOTA 2 since it was announced, and want to commit a lot of time into it, to try and get really good.

    For all of the amazing things there are about DOTA, it is plagued with a ton of bad design, mostly warcraft 3 stuff. PREACHING TO THE CHOIR HERE I WON'T GO ON ETC.

    A DOTA 2.0 would actually blow my mind. A redesigned MOBA where they aren't afraid of unique characters, and gameplay that isn't super homogenous and repetitive (yea I've been playing LoL).

    A DOTA 1.5 would be incredible, fix a few high level design issues but keep all of the hero balance and most of the numbers intact.

    Hell even a DOTA 1.1 would be great, keep the numbers and heros and design, but just take away all of the stupid WC3 stuff and make it easier for new players to get into.

    BUT YOU ACTUALLY NEED TO SELECT ENEMY HEROES TO SEE THEIR MANA?

    REALLY ARE YOU ACTUALLY FOR REAL VALVE?

    It actually makes me so afraid that this game is literally reprogramming the Warcraft 3 engine with better graphics. WHY WOULD YOU EVEN DO THAT IT MAKES NO SENSE. There is actually so much room to improve DOTA to be accessible and amazing and fun and omg the opportunity whyyyyy valve whyyyy.
    Ehrgeix likes this.
  10. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    It would take up the space they desperately need for HATS!

    Honestly though I suspect Valve will either cave to fans and/or allow UI mods. Alternatively, I wouldn't mind simply having enemy mana pools be completely hidden information.
  11. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    If enemy mana is COMPLETELY hidden I'm ok with it I suppose. If it's hidden until you select them then it's incredibly stupid. Though I like HoN where you can play off your enemy's mana pool and not have to try to predict how much mana they have.
  12. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    Unrelated: Would it make a difference if hero icons (as in LoL) were denoted by hero pings (like in DotA)
  13. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure what that means, could you clarify?
  14. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    In DotA heroes are represented on the minimap as diamonds and In LoL they are like tiny round portraits.
  15. Kai-

    Kai- Well-Known Member

    I prefer colored diamonds (or whatever shape works, really) to the mini-portraits in LoL.

    It's a pretty trivial thing overall though, as long as you can tell the difference between each dot.
  16. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    An ally mana bar would be a godsend. Years of playing Keeper of Light...having to constantly click on heroes in the heat of combat, risking so much, just to see how much mana they have.

    You want a horrible dota clone, see HoN.

    Things I'd like to see changed:

    -Stupid heroes like Bloodseeker, Nightstalker, and Dwarven Sniper improved for competitive play. (They're gank fodder)

    -Heroes that basically only use one ability get more to do such as Necrolyte and Tidehunter (They technically have two..but you get the point).

    -Improved movement physics from Warcraft 3

    -More heroes like Invoker that break the silly 3 spells and an ultimate mold.

    -Overpowered blink dagger brought back

    -More dynamic support items

    -More dynamic support heroes

    -More than two types of wards
  17. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    You can sign up for the beta now if it so strikes your fancy:
    http://www.dota2.com/tournaments/international/

    Valve won't be taking the risk of modifying Dota's base concept with something this important. It's already got a huge playerbase so don't expect much to change on release. I'm honestly looking forward to what it looks like after the first year.

    As for mana having it hidden would be stupid. If you get even remotely decent at this game you have to pay attention to your enemies mana pool and there's several hero's who's strats are geared heavily toward how much mana they or their enemies have (AM, NA, OD).

    Not having it viewable automatically on screen for enemies is a very very odd choice. You could claim too much info but it just leaves those who click faster in a better position.

    Also for those who care the Stream of the tourney begins tomorrow. I'm on US west time zone so 1AM for me. Figure from there. Or....
    http://www.worldtimeserver.com/convert_time_in_DE.aspx?y=2011&mo=8&d=17&h=10&mn=0
  18. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    Oh I had a discussion about this in chat the other day. It'd be nice, but I don't think it can work.

    -HoN displays heroes as a colored dot based on that hero's color. I think this is the baseline minimum and is a free improvement over just a generic icon on the minimap (Dota was colored too though wasn't it?). So I'm going to use this as the basis to compare to Lol's system.
    -DotA Map is larger, but you can't really make the minimap larger so there's a worse (larger) ratio between the game world size and the minimap. So inheriently all things on the minimap are smaller.
    -DotA/HoN's current icons are smaller than HoN's and are too small to have a portrait contained within them without enlarging the icon.
    -Enlarging the icon means the icon will cover up more terrain features, obscure other units/heroes, and overall make it hard to read the minimap for information.
    -It's not entirely clear to me how much better it is (if at all), this depends mostly on how well the icons convey information. If you remember the color -> hero association it's not really any harder than remembering hero portrait -> hero association. Sure you need to do it every game, but if the hero icons aren't as distinct or clear (like when there is a roster of 100 heroes) so I'm not convinced that one way or the other actually conveys information better. Even for newbies they still need to know who the icon represents to have it better. The important thing to me on the icon is the time it takes for me to see the icon and translate it into the hero that it is. Whichever one is a smaller amount of time is the better one to me.

    So some of my examples are like this:

    -If I'm in a lane as a ranged hero solo 1v2 (or 2v2 with another ranged hero partner) I'll sometimes leave the camera so that the creep wave is around the edge of the screen and last hit from there. I'll then watch the minimap to see if my opponents are moving forward on that creep wave so I know to back/use an ability to escape. I like to do this because if I know I'm going to be on the defensive I don't want to get into it with my camera centered on the creeps rather than me. That extra little bit it takes to readjust the camera to be able to use a blink like ability to back or move the mouse to target an ability can make a big difference.

    (When I'm say mid 1v1 I'll leave the camera more centered on creeps because I'm not worried about the same stuff and it's more important to read my opponent for how to last hit or opportunities to harass).

    -I also like to watch other lanes and it's possible to tell sometimes by the way the dots move what is going on without moving the camera. Since small movements are picked up by the smaller DotA icons you can tell how heroes are advancing/retreating and sometimes spot incoming gank attempts. It's not uncommon for me to watch the minimap and see a gank incoming then TP to that lane (using minimap) and counter-gank or stop the gank. Same applies to incoming team fights when I'm off farming as a carry.

    -It's also useful to be able to see the size of an incoming creep wave when you have something like an enemy hero solo pushing a lane towards a tower.

    Now LoL gets both advantages, but again this is because the map size to minimap size ratio is smaller.

    Basically if icons are sure to be clearer than colors (clearer meaning recognize the hero faster on seeing it on the minimap) AND they're not going to obstruct use of the minimap then sure, go for it. Personally I'm not willing to sacrifice anything for the convenience of not having to remember color->hero associations every game if that's all you gain.
  19. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    No VP in the tournament, boo
  20. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    For those interested in Dota's meta history:
    http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/thread/807143-a-history-of-dota-part-2

    That's part two, and the link to part 1 is up top. More coming soon.

    It's accurate and a good read if you so care. It'd be interesting to compare the tourney scene timeline with what i remember from pubs to see how long stuff took to trickle down.
  21. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    Wow, this brings me back a long ways and makes me feel old...seems like yesterday they were stacking Necrobooks in super pushes.
  22. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    tiny tripple ult at 16 for 4 necro summons on one hero ftw.
  23. Kai-

    Kai- Well-Known Member

    @Logo

    You can set the icons in dota to be color coded (blue, pink, etc for each player) or team coded (iirc, blue for ally, red for enemy).
  24. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    The article should have pointed out that at the time period they're describing this meta-game, the game literally was Sentinel vs. Scourge. You could only pick from the heroes that were on your side. Of course, until they developed XL mode and eventually random draft.
  25. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    I was confused about that because I thought I played some of the 6.30ish era. Did they still have AP back then?
  26. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    All competitive games were AP, but you could only pick from your side's hero pool. I didn't play competitively during this time, so I don't know when XL mode was made.
  27. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Some leagues played both sides from the moment AP hit, but it took quite a while for full AP to catch on.

    Hell the game is still somewhat balanced for Scourge v Sent even today.

    I actually sometimes think it'd be interesting to see tourney's hosted as such, and it's a shame they didn't keep the neutral taverns for it.
  28. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    It would be kind of nice if Dota 2 did that. True DotA mode...they could even include the winter tileset theme as a throwback to the days of yore.
  29. LoneKnight

    LoneKnight Well-Known Member

    She wasn't even called Spectre back then. And I LIKED her that way.

    :(
  30. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    The first variation of Spectre (just called Mercurial then) was pretty bad. I remember his phase being poorly coded, and what's now the dagger was really weird and bad.
  31. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Haunt was the WTF skill, and her ult just pissed people off.

    Haunt did extra damage to the enemy hero if they COULDN'T see you. Meaning you had to nuke them, and then run away...or something. Kinda worked as a chase and with some gimmicks, but not well done.

    Her ult let her tag an opponent with a marker and every creep that died would hit them. Her passive meant that if you last hit a creep you took damage. It was absurd.
  32. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    But then there was version 2 spectre with the super broken dispersion that had like a 20% chance to ministun everytime it proced...

    Poor pudge had absolutely no chance against that.

    Make me also miss old Naix with his broken agility gain.
  33. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Meh old naix was boring. He sucked out loud but pubs couldn't handle him.
  34. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    He was considered good before people starting whoring blink daggers. He was an all-or-nothing hero...kinda like terrorblade. Naix's agility gain, I think, was the highest in the game.
  35. monkeyswinkle

    monkeyswinkle Member

    Has there been any video of Dota2 gameplay yet, or just that trailer?

    Edit: Nvm, I can just watch matches tomorrow. Just being impatient, hehe.
  36. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Stream starts in an hour. I don't often get to be a giddy overhyped fanboy due to years of being a jaded bastard, but for Vavle and dota i'll make an exception and try to ignore the gnawing fear of a F2P model.
  37. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    100% agree, also "wtf you shit, why run" - "mana" is so anoying.


    Lots of those suggestions are already implemented or at least partially implemented in the current dota version. I don't know when you played dota last, but now Tide has 2 actives and his passive is kind of his signature. Of cause in big fights his ulti is most important, but the gush is still good for ganking and the new anchor is good as well.
    Nightstalker is currently very high pick in competetive scene and not so long ago sniper was also very high pick.
    Necrolyte could use one more active ability (instead of heartstopper aura, but he already has massive mana-problems as it is) and bloodseeker ... he sucks in comp, but can't be buffed otherwise he'd completely own pubs. No fun to play against him already.

    Physics agree, though I bet it will be better (though I ll miss creep blocking).

    I don't care about 3 skills + ultimate. Usually it is enough.

    OP blink will not come back. It was removed for good reason.

    Also I don't see why you want more wards.

    For dynamic items, how do you define dynamic ? If you mean supportive active items, then we already got tons of active items over the last versions. Urn of shadows, pipe, mekka, necro book, euls, forcestaff, veil of discord, arcane boots ... probably forgot some - like smoke of deceit :D
    What do you miss here, what would you change/improve?

    Dynamic support heroes are ... what exactly ? I guess you mean aggressive support that doesn't only sit around and wait for the carry to get fed, maybe something like early game roamers ?
    I don't know since there exist heroes like that, especially earthshaker is mainly played as roaming ganker until the first heroes hit 6. Maybe you want something that scales better (dynamically) to mid/lategame, but there are heroes that do as well. (Just imagine windrunner played as trilane support early game, can still take a break from supporting and farm up something easily)

    OMG, I have to prepare a presentation ... this is bad :D
  38. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Stream should start any moment, but just noticed this

    BS, NS, and Sniper. You're...just wrong. NS is the center of a very interesting strat revolving around his Agh's ult. He might need a buff but he's close to viable. BS has seen play on and off recently, and ditto with sniper. They might need slight buffs but gank fodder is just out there.

    Necro and Tide also do a hell of a lot with those simple abilities. Necro usually winds up with items, and Tide is a heavy roamer. I agree he could use an active on anchor smash, but he's already insanely powerful so it'd have to be simple.

    Improved movement physics...eh sure.

    Invoker heroes- there are sevral depending on what you mean. If they DON'T make him easier to use though i wouldn't agree.

    OP blink dagger. This is fucking ironic. BUFF SNIPER BS NS. Bring back the item that made them TOTALLY useless. OP blink dagger was core on EVERYONE and if you didn't have a stun, you sucked. The meta gmae was interesting in some ways, but it just trashed gameplay. I wouldn't mind seeing a Divine rapier level item with old blink, that dropped on death or some other limit, but i do not want old blink.

    -Dynamic support items, Jango was a step in that direction. As was amulet. I expect more.

    -dynamic support hero's- Explain. I'd argue puck and several item varied hero's qualify.

    -What more can wards do? I think this has potential, but they have to be careful.
  39. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    Ah, such a silly question. Wards can heal/damage/inflict debuffs/ teleport/make espresso etc.

    What I don't get is what does dynamic in the context of items/heroes mean? Need positioning? Needs skills to properly use? If so, what skills?
  40. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    Is the stream lagged to crap for anyone else?
  41. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Heal-Jugg
    Damage-Many hero's
    Debuff-Pugna
    Teleport- THis could be interesting.

    Seriously though. I'd rather see it on a hero for the most part.

    Edit:
    ANd yeah stream is getting absurd on and off lag. They better have some good explanations for this. If it continues through the tourney it's going to hurt them
  42. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    Stream was running fine on hd until ehome was leading 12:3, then it stopped working all together.

    I don't see why those wards should be made into items. I mean they are already hero skills (damage: veno, rhasta; mana burn and damage: pugna; heal: jugger; teleport imo not needed since you can tp on towers with scrolls and on creeps with boots of travel, also would make heroes with indirectly nerf heroes with global positioning skills)
  43. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    The only reason i like the TP one was there used to be some nifty ideas based around TPIng to chiken and other tricks. They've since been removed because they caused various problems, but a teleport node item which allows offensive tp for scroll carriers would be huge. It'd have to be pricey, and maybe only allow one or two tps, but it'd be interesting.

    Edit:
    Seems people at the tourney are reporting that the spectators got disconnected. The game is still going smoothly other than one case of lag.
  44. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    @Eji1700: I meant wards as in all wards. Hero and item alike. I remember chicken with that target clicky staff. ChickenKill! It was hilarious.

    EDIT: Just as I joined the stream went sour :( I'm such a luck bringer.
  45. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    I think they loaded up the game. After Ehome got their lead game stopped at 12:3 and 10 min later resumed still 12:3. Now the commentators are missing, but I hope they don't load again just for them to rejoin. Too annoying for players to break their gameflow all the time.
  46. LoneKnight

    LoneKnight Well-Known Member

    Mercurial, Spirit of Vengeance when she first appeared had the following skills:

    Haunt

    Haunt was my favourite skill in the game. It periodically summoned an image of Spectre who would attack the target hero, leveling the skill would increase the number of haunts, and at final level you could switch place with the haunt and teleport to the enemy hero.

    Haunt got more powerful if you could see the enemy hero and you were hidden from the enemy team. This meant that spectre was pretty much the "cheapest" hero in the entire game, as her gameplay revolved never even being seen.

    Haunt had a pretty big problem though; the images would always spawn at the same place relative to the target (I think it was North) because of engine limitations, so you could pretty much dodge them by running the opposite direction. Also, LoS detection was kindof wonky.

    Phase: gave you 0 colision and nothing else. Can be used to travel through trees and shit if you spam clicked but it kinda sucked. You could kindof hide with it maybe but it had massive cooldown and manacost (for something that's basically a gimmicky WW anyway).

    Disperse: triggered at % of the time instead of always being on, reflecting 100% of the damage that triggered it and ministunning people around. Dispersing Lina and Lion ultimates was priceless.

    Vengeance (ultimate): had a lot of versions. The first version couldn't be aimed, and if an allied unit died in AoE, it simply dealt damage to a random enemy unit around. It dealt more damage when heroes died (I think it started at 100), and it worked on images so spectre+manta style or PL was a pretty nice, though gimicky. The immediate update after that had it targetable by placing a spell on an enemy (which cost 100 mana... Merc was a pretty mana starved hero already because both phase and haunt were pretty expensive).

    ver 2. switched the ultimate to haunt and made vengeance a normal skill AND auto targeting the killer. This made her impossible to effectively lane against.

    ver 3 is basically the spectre we all know and love.

    IMO best version would have been ver 1 with Haunt fixed, spectral dagger instead of phase, and ultimate working like the non-ultimate ver 2 version, maybe with a smaller AoE (so she has to go close to the creeps in order to get them in the aura and is vulnerable to harassing). Not that current spectre is bad, mind, but I really liked old haunt.
  47. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    So am I the only one bored to death by DotA2 stream without any decent commentary...
  48. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    nope

    10chars
  49. Polari

    Polari Well-Known Member

    It might have something to do with the 6.69-style Chinese farmfest

    edit - I mean, I actually loved those, but tuning in when it's already in lategame with no commentator to fill in while nothing happens? Buuuuuhhhh
  50. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    It's 65min into a game and no resolution. It went from 3:12 to 21:28 and both sides are equally pushed as far as i can tell.

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