DoTA and DoTA 2

Discussion in 'Now Playing' started by Eji1700, Aug 16, 2011.

  1. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    Yeah no commentators sucks, hope they make it more stable until the finals. But it also sucks for the players to get interrupted whenever some commentatore disconnects and reload the game for them.

    Also it had some farming, but it also had nice ganks and teamfights. 21/28 is not too bad in 65 minutes imo.

    Anyone checked the other results ? There was a sniper with 22 kills *lololol*.
  2. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    24-31 at 75 minutes now. It's entirely common for HoN games to have this score in about 30 minutes.
  3. Polari

    Polari Well-Known Member

    To be fair, the reason for high kill counts is usually player mistakes, and the teams playing are my top 2 picks to win the whole thing.

    Doesn't make it any less of a boring farmfest though. I love it how the second round is scheduled to have started already, but TOO BAD IT'S ME, CHINESE SPECTRE!
  4. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    Third round is about to start in 5 min xD

    I think 1 kill per min is good. LoL often has less and more kills usually come from either stomp or bad play.
  5. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

  6. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    I'm loving these graphics in motion. I find them a lot clearer than HoN and LoL without sacrificing aesthetic value or making it overly cartoony.
  7. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    Logo, I agree. My first impression was, "holy shit these character models are bad." Some models look "bad," and it's kind of disorienting to see something like Venomancer and Mirana in the same game. But then I remembered that the goal is for every hero to look unique and be recognizable, rather than trying to make them conform to a nice art style. So while Lion is one ugly mofo, at least I can tell him apart from other heroes. And the actual game looks great. Amazing particle effects, lighting, etc.

    Too bad about failstream though. You'd think a 1.6 million dollar tourney could afford a nice streaming server but maybe streaming video to a bunch of people is harder than I thought.

    Anyone have a compendium of acquired dota 2 knowledge? I'm looking for something that has a list of implemented heroes, changes from dota 1, and so forth.
  8. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    From what I heard there were very few changes, something about Beastmasters ability being influenced by Physical and Magical resistance. Basically it's DotA 6.xx (where xx is latest) except its with more graphics.
  9. Zejety

    Zejety Well-Known Member

    Copied from G+ (comparison to HoN)

  10. Polari

    Polari Well-Known Member

    I think the HUD has way, way too much wasted space and is pretty awful overall. One thing HoN has going for it on the UI front is great modding tools, just check out MiniUI.

    Other than that I agree with what's been said so far. I hated the graphics at first, but I've grown to like them while watching the stream. A big difference IMO between DotA and HoN was that HoN's heroes were of consistent size and you could tell what kind of a thing a given unit was, while in DotA they could be anything and some of them you could even mistake as creeps in a middle of a fight if you were unfamiliar with them. In DotA 2 heroes look like heroes. Thumbs up for that.
  11. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    Mostly right, biggest difference imo are lots of heroes missing.

    Sadly I didn't find a complete list yet, but those commentators keep talking about options that are not available in dota2 yet.

    In the end I hope they rework clunky stuff like orb effects, but whatever. It certainly looks good. Not nice in all aspects, but I can see pretty well what is going on in big teamfights (can't say that about dota1 or lol).
    Someone complained about AAs big animation, but I think it is much better now since it indicates the area of effect clearly without obfuscating other abilities.

    Streams are a disappointment though. They lag a lot and the commentators voice stutters like crazy just before all players start to complain about lag - so I guess the performance issues are at least partially caused by the commentating/streaming.
    Also I would like it a lot if they did something in between matches, just like the sc2 streams. They got interviews with the players, trashtalk and some useful or funny insights.
  12. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    Boring farmfest has always been pretty common with Chinese teams when they are playing for large amounts of money. But last night was still a downer, particularly with stream problems.

    2 replays are now available on "schedule" page, for those who care. They don't have commentary though.
  13. Zejety

    Zejety Well-Known Member

    Seems like Köln Messe (the location) offers just 1 Digital Subscriber Line per booth. That would mean the commentator + 10 tournament players + further PCs (warm-up) all use the same line.
  14. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Windrunner's hair color is now Red! Thanks Valve, apparently you are listening to me.
  15. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    Watching the replay without commentary is nice because you get to hear all the voice acting involved (normally the shoutcasters are just screaming over it).

    A+: Earthshaker saying "You're no great shakes" when he killed a guy.
    F: Clockwerk saying something obnoxious every time he fires a rocket (a spell with like a 15 sec cd)
  16. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Various thoughts-
    I love the graphics and models. Things are still clear while being unique and purdy. A+ on aesthetics.

    It's dota. I am curious to see how development goes from here after launch, or any new hero's we see now that they have a much more powerful engine.

    Lag....hmmm. Not good for them. I hear there getting crazy numbers for the stream that's fucking the spectators(300k US 1.5 million total), but that doesn't mean there should be in game lag.

    I'm happy to still see various styles of play. The china farm a carry is something that i hope ice is still working on weakening, because as you all saw it is boring, but if you watch the other two replays up so far you can see that's certainly not always the case.

    MYM is up and they seem to be going mass push. This could be quick.
  17. Zejety

    Zejety Well-Known Member

    I haven't been following comp. DotA for a lot of time. Is Anti Mage that popular in DotA(1), too? He's been in 3/4 games I've watched so far.
  18. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    He is like a tier 2 pick in dota 1 atm. He pops up from time to time but isn't on par with A-list carries like Weaver or Spectre.
  19. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    He just started showing up a LOT more recently. His goal isn't carry such as crazy midgame dps to counter popular carries. He gets going much fast and burst anything that holds still into the ground.

    Do remember though that it's an incomplete hero pool, and with the majority of those in the game being int, i think that'll also help skew him in.
  20. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    Version 2 of spectre had the dispersion that ministunned.

    Anti-Mage is rarely picked because he's not as good of a carry as Spectre, Luna, Void, or others.


    Nice to see Maelk play his legendary Chen again.
  21. Polari

    Polari Well-Known Member

    Are you serious?
  22. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    Luna has probably been nerfed by now. Remember, I stopped playing toward the latter part of 2008. Back then, Luna just had to Helm of the dominator and butterfly, and she could take entire teams out.

    Void was a top carry pick during the blink dagger days, because with butterfly, he has the highest evasion in the game (Since it stacks with his backtrack) and you could stack bashers back then.
  23. Polari

    Polari Well-Known Member

    Yeah sure. You might want to mention you're talking about a 3 years old version of the game though, I think the others are talking about DotA as it's played now.
  24. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    That was a really interesting game from my perspective. I imagine it bored the hell out of everyone else, but i have to say AM going S&Y was shocking. If that had been manta or an earlier BkB things might have gone very differently.
  25. Warskull

    Warskull Active Member

    Valve is basically killing the Dota genre. Dota 2 will be highly successful and a juggernaut. The problem is, it seems to be almost an exact copy of Dota. I am sure any veteran Dota player can attest that the core game concept is great, but the game has a lot of design issues accumulated over the years and could be so much more. The genre really badly needs someone to rebuild it from the ground up.

    Valve could have done that and been extremely successful. The problem is, they didn't and now the existence of Dota 2 will probably prevent anyone short of Blizzard from making a new Dota style game from being successful.
  26. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    So what's up with this "Points" system in the Beta Tournament? Like I guess they need an incentive to keep playing once the game's a lost cause but this "Time Rating" shit is dumb.
  27. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    First time I've ever seen SnY used in a top competitive game (Though I think Vigoss may have gotten it a few times on his godly Chaos Knight)

    The moba genre will probably not actually advance for years to come. So much that can be done that won't, because people would rather play the same game of Dota over and over.
  28. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    I think Valve is saving the DotA genre.

    Blizzard is only making a modification for SC2 for a DotA-like so they're not in the picture really.

    EA/Activision/All other major publishers are unwilling or unable to make a competitive large scale DotA-Game.

    The only company left big enough to stand up to Riot's swelling numbers is Valve. No one else can do it. S2 can't do it, other indie devs can't do it, it's just too much power behind them currently.

    Say what you will about LoL's gameplay compared to DotA's, but for the genre to be healthy and reasonable it CANNOT have runes, levels and hopefully even hero unlocks.

    So hopefully Valve has a good business model, though we're unlikely to get something like runes/levels so we already know it won't be as bad as LoL's.


    SnY is really popular in HoN, there are some great carries without a good ranged slow, but that do really well with geometer's (item that creates illusions and builds out of 1/2 of SnY). So they build SnY then break it up for geometer's.
  29. Polari

    Polari Well-Known Member

    It's just a tiebreaker for the group stage and will only matter in group C.

    It's pretty good now that it's not an orb anymore (as of 6.72 about 4 months ago).
  30. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    ...

    Ok first of all basher has NEVER been competitive viable. Stacking bashers was a pub smashing trick that was never ever used. Void was a common pick because he had pretty awesome stats and could blink in and stun you whole damn team. Back when no stun meant blink away means void needed it.

    Luna was never that great of a carry even then. Another pubsmasher she saw comp play because her DPS was crazy, but she could be bursted down hard. She hasn't been anywhere near that level for a LONG time.
    SNY is more popular in top level play than people give credit for it, but it's usually a "ok i'm getting ganked too hard, time to grab SNY to make sure i can still hurt" on DPS Heros. AM had a serious farm streak going and picking up SNY there was a really really bad call. It gave him more single target DPS and what not, but manta would've helped so much more. I really don't get that decision.
  31. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    Void was known to get mask of madness, butterfly, and one basher in competitive games. Luna was a world beater around the first competitive season after blink dagger was nerfed. Luna and Spectre were picked pretty much every game. I'm not sure if there are any good replays of MYM vs. SNK from August-September of 08, but during that time, Luna was top pick. There was no reason not to, since opponent's couldn't blink away from her, and she just had to get lifesteal and evasion.
  32. suiraclaw

    suiraclaw Member

    Speaking from a strictly spectator based view point: I'm dissapointed by Dota2 in comparison to HoN.

    Again, I obviously have no idea how enjoyable/fun the gameplay in dota2 is. Instead, I just want to point out that it certainly looks boring. Not necessarily in the sense of "it looks boring to play" but more in the sense of "it's boring to watch others play". Although there's obviously a connection between the 2.

    I don't have the impression this is because of the graphics. What does matter is:
    - dota gameplay is much more centered around carries. Or rather, a typical Hon game has way more gankers. I'm talking only hero picks here.
    - the dota2 tournament games so far all had a rediculous low kill/minute rate compaired to what I'm used in HoN. Obviously connected with the above issue, but it's probably also because of all the tower trading (instead of defending towers).
    - horrible spectator UI, hopefully this gets resolved fast.

    For reference:
    Example of dota2 game:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/dota2#p/u/0/kfn08PcMGWM
    I picked this one because so far this has been the game with the most action

    Example of hon game:
    http://honcast.com/video/2011/08/06/ungl-zowie-cup-2-2nd-round-msi-vs-adon
    I picked this one mostly because it's has 9 dota heroes:
    Legion: ophelia = chen, pollywog = rasta, shaman = shadow priest, pharoah = clockwerk, kraken is a new strength hero
    Hellbourne: rampage = spiritbreaker, slither = venomancer, plague rider = lich, pebbles = tiny, magmus = sand king
  33. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    I'm wondering how much of it is a limited hero pool that caused this?

    Anyways I really hope DotA2 brings in the chalice because I think that's one thing that really promotes aggressive play in HoN (it gives a great cheap mana option that can satisfy the mana demands of some heroes outright).

    Also the more money on the line the less risks a team is going to take unless they feel they have to take one. There's a whole chinese vs not-chinese thing going on as well.
  34. BeastofBurden

    BeastofBurden Well-Known Member

    From a person who rarely play these type of games, HoN's seems to have more interesting and lasting battles, but it looks like a messy cluster fuck. DOTA's cleanliness of graphics and spell effects are great so I hope DOTA 2 comes out on top with some improved gameplay over time. I still find MOBA's on average, dreadfully boring to watch.
  35. Polari

    Polari Well-Known Member

    How much of the different playstyle in DotA and HoN is up to the games and how much up to the players? It seems that whenever I watch HoN, there are kills happening left and right simply because players are so glaringly out of position, and not even punished for it until the other team decides that now they feel like it. This has been a big part of the difference between European and Chinese DotA playstyles; when players don't make easy mistakes they could be punished for, there's much less kills overall.

    HoN does favor a more aggressive playstyle, but the level of the competitive scene is also behind DotA for sure. What would HoN look like if it was played by teams of EHOME's and iG's caliber? I have no idea, but I'd really like to know.
  36. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    Those Dota 2 matches were a lot like watching 6.3 style Dota. MYM's team was classic big push. I guess you can't satisfy everybody. You guys say you want Dota to be more exciting and full of killing/ganking...well, it was once like that, but too many people complained because Virtus.Pro was an unstoppable machine.

    And Polari's right, Dota's level of competitive play is way above that of HoN.

    If Valve wants to make Dota 2 the glory that was 6.48b Dota 1, where the game was all about mass killings and constant ganks, they'll bring back overpowered blink dagger, overpowered bottle, and reduce the cost of bracers.
  37. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    @ boring gameplay:
    I admit I am a fan of dota, but I think it has much better to watch gameplay than LoL (and more kills even in chinese games). On the other hand these players are really good. They are close to never out of position or get caught randomly.
    Also a lot comes down to

    @ playstyle:
    I really love the different styles possible in dota. I don't really know about HoN, but just compare the first game with a Na'Vi or MYM game.
    After watching most commentated games today I have to say Na'Vi plays so baller, definitly my favorit (though I doubt this style works 100%, so they won't take it home, but they play a spectacular style to watch ... Na'Vi vs Scythe when artstyle (slardar) jukes 3 people ganking him on bottom lane near the secret shop, stuns them all and runs out to get ported to base by chen).

    I guess I shouldnt reply anymore to comments about heroes, most heroes played here were played a month or two ago in dota1 competetive as well and those that weren't played before are not played in this tournament as well.
    Also I didn't see any spectacular new itembuild, maybe some modern stuff, like S&Y, but no real innovation yet.
  38. Polari

    Polari Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure DotA is "way above" HoN anymore, I've watched very little HoN lately but I hear it's been getting a lot better. I guess Fnatic.MSI would be at about the same level as tier 2 Euro teams, and was just saying elsewhere that I would have loved to see them in the DotA 2 tourney in the place of Virus or SGC or something just to size them up to the DotA teams.
  39. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    definitly dota2 gameplay looks 10 times more boring than hon, it looks more boring than lol.
  40. unentschieden

    unentschieden Member

    A successfull Dota2 is basically poison to the genre because there is no better way to stagnation than rewarding pure repetition. Dota2 is a Dotaremake to the point of making the overused maplayout the icon.
  41. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    On the other hand I bet Icefrog is enjoying his gold brick bath.
  42. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    I can't agree with that at all. I would rather start over from square one (dota2) than continue forward from LoL given it's business model and stuff.
  43. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Seconded. Lol's success worries the hell out of me because runes and Levels are NOT a good idea for the genre at all. Levels to separate skill? sure. Levels to unlock things....no.
  44. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    Not to mention everybody getting a free TP or Blink...

    After the disasters that have been Demi God and League of Legends, I just hope Dota 2 can restore some credability back to the genre add the things Dota 1 needed that were restricted by the War3 engine...like better support heroes and better items.
  45. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    Plus I'd say there's a strong chance DotA2 is going to have something more competition friendly than HoN/LoL because they seem really determined to go after the CN market and pull them away from DotA. So if they 'win' for the time being they will at least be the most likely do it on a business model we all enjoy.
  46. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Except DotA is a living game so it's actually not a repeat of DotA but rather the continuation/evolution of DotA. It's not like they can just release DotA 2 as an exact copy of DotA and then never update it... or well I guess they COULD but that would simultaneously kill both the DotA 1 and DotA 2 scenes. At some point, through updates, DotA 2 will eventually become something noticeably different from DotA 1.

    Admittedly DotA 2 will probably not evolve the genre but that doesn't mean it's existence will hinder the genre's evolution. If DotA 2 proves to be as wildly successful as it's expected to be, HoN/LoL will need to evolve to compete. If alternatively DotA 2 doesn't generate/hold the player base it expects/wants/needs, you can bet Valve will force some innovation on it.

    Beyond that, this will be the first official test of the market. If it goes well we'll probably start seeing other big name companies fish for a piece of that pie.
  47. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    Fun fact: the replays on youtube are with an autospectator. It never misses a kill unless 2 kills happen at once, but there are some wtf moments where the computer looks away (no kill, so why not?!?!?) and a human never would. Overall, it's nice. I watch a lot of commented videos just because I'm eating or whatever when I watch, but this is a nice option for when that's not available.
  48. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Interesting... I thought that was auto-camera but I couldn't be sure. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like the camera will also attempt to avoid "boring" lanes (I.E. solo vs solo farm off). I suspect it somehow tries to follow action either by selecting players who are causing allot of damage or selecting players who are using allot of skills... or maybe I'm just crazy and it only hunts for kills.
  49. Warskull

    Warskull Active Member

    There are more options than "make your game a derivative of LoL" and "make your game an exact copy of dota." For example, Monday Night Combat's fusion of shooter and dota.
  50. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    The genre has enough space/players to allow for some innovation. But first the basics have to be taken care of. DotA1 is just unacceptable, like no auto-reconnect, no option to search for games in battlenet, no sponsor, no money for competetive play.
    DotA1 only lives through fan-leagues and fanmade solo-queue (dota-league, dotalicious, etc.). DotA1 also has a very large playerbase, even though it is much much more difficult to play a decent game of dota, than to join some semi-balanced LoL game.

    Therefore it is only natural that someone has to come and take this huge playerbase at its hand and provide some improvement. This is needn't be gameplay improvement, since there are competitors out there with different gameplay (HoN, LoL, ...) and better gaming infrastructure. Still those games couldn't reach the dota crowd, since these games don't feel as good. (And with HoN it might have something to do with the inital business model)
    Therefore innovation in the games infrastructure is needed, not gameplay innovation as the gameplay is regularly updated by icefrog anyway.

    Now that this is taken care of there is room for more dota-like games that are not dota and play somewhat different. My greatest hope is, that the valve game is modable like wc3. Then it wouldn't be long until tons of different styles of dota-games could evolve.

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