DoTA and DoTA 2

Discussion in 'Now Playing' started by Eji1700, Aug 16, 2011.

  1. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    I couldn't agree with Leartes more. I've been enjoying DotA for years and years (since before 5.84c), and for me the things I would most like to see are:

    1. Better network code
    2. Incentives for not being a dick
    3. Ingame chat and hotkey setup
    4. Graphics
    100. "Innovation"

    Saying "DotA2" has no innovation is sort of strange to me, since there has been a lot of innovation over the years. It's a living game and has seen a lot of change. Just because the jump from Dota1 to Dota2 is small doesn't mean that it will be stagnate forever.

    Of course you're on your own if you don't like core mechanics like denying or whatever.
  2. Zejety

    Zejety Patreon Supporter

    I wonder why you haven't played HoN (or have you?). At least in its earlier days it was pretty much what you are describing (minus 2).
  3. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    The main reason why I never moved to HoN was because the people I played with didn't, and because my POS computer at the time didn't support it. I hear about bad balance/bad graphics/server downtime a lot, though, so tbh I'm not too sad. But yeah, it was probably a mistake not to switch.
  4. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    A while ago (not sure about right now) the balance was pretty good, it felt like a good half the pool was viable, even if they were almost all int and agi heroes. Server downtime was next to nothing. There were a couple of outages a little while ago, but before that it was basically all uptime except 5 minutes for patches. I realise you're not comparing it with League here but when I tried the latter I was stunned by how everyone put up with it going down basically all day starting right about when everyone wakes up, every 2 weeks on the dot, PLUS whenever something actually broke.
  5. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    I think when it came out it cost money with no demo available.

    Also when it came out my laptop barely ran wc3. Maybe should have tried it later, but when I had my new laptop dota2 was already announced so I didn't want to pay money just to try something out. (again business model)
  6. unentschieden

    unentschieden Member

    "If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse."
    Henry Ford

    Lets just take Hon, while only a relativly small difference innovated positivly innovated with the chalice.
  7. KaiDASH

    KaiDASH Well-Known Member

    I think this sort of thing is pretty unfair, it's not as if dota is stagnant or anything like that.
  8. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    Are you sure about that?
  9. KaiDASH

    KaiDASH Well-Known Member

    In the context of the example given by unentschieden, yes.
  10. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    Oh, fair enough, it has been adding items like urn which are sort of analogous to striders and chalice I guess. EDIT: and the new ban order.

    I do feel compelled to point out, though (though this isn't directed at anyone in particular) that apart from the absence of Medusa and the presence of Weaver and Ancient Apparition everything looks pretty much the same as like a year and a half ago judging by these DotA2 streams.
  11. KaiDASH

    KaiDASH Well-Known Member

    I just did a quick search on chalice (You're talking about blood chalice, yeah?) and the dota equivalent, Soul Ring predates it by almost 4 months.

    Soul Ring was released ~March 25 2010 in version 6.67

    The Blood Chalice was released on ~July 2 2010 in version 1.0.5

    So Hon actually copied dota, again.

    Disregard the above if you're actually talking of a different chalice, I'm not familiar with HoN really.
  12. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    I am talking about that, but I'm not particularly interested in defending HoN as not being derivative, so that doesn't change much. Also the thing is that HoN "innovated" here by making their version a LOT stronger, which resulted in strength heroes actually being played for basically the first time by eliminating their criplping early-game mana choking. This shook up the metagame pretty heavily for a while, although they then reverted it and now most strength heroes are unplayed at top-tier again.
  13. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    A lot happend in between.

    Like there were lots of heroes being played for some month than dropped out of favor again. I think you mean the old dusa vs morphling farm-metagame. (Also drow and sniper being picked back than)

    There were month of massive syllabear action. Anti-Mage, Nightstalke for midgame dominance. Invoker was deemed OP for some time, same for Necrolic (though those are not in dota2).

    In the end the great thing is, that there are so many different viable strategies. Like there was a long time 1/1/3 was the only possible laning, there are quite some games with dual mid lanes... Maybe I am just spotting more differences because I am following the scene more closely :D

    Got to admit I am a fanboy :D


    Admit I didn't knew what this chalice thing was about.

    I can see a stronger soul ring working as well, though I think it is beastly as it is already.

    Does HoN have arcane boots as well ? Dunno, urn gives mana regen as well.
  14. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    So it's just a coincidence that it's back to looking like it did before? Ok, my bad if so.
  15. KaiDASH

    KaiDASH Well-Known Member

    I wasn't really replying to you with that, more to unentschieden since he posted as if HoN came up with the concept first.

    It's a pretty poor 'innovation' if it breaks the game and has to be nerfed heavily (and post nerf doesn't change anything), but I guess you recognize this so I won't go there.

    I only watched some of the first game for the dota2 stream, so I can't really comment alot in regard to that, but many of the strong heroes a year and a half ago are still strong now, and they would have been the priorities for porting prior to this tourney. So heroes that are still pretty good and usable in alot of games weren't even in the pool to be picked. And even some top tier heroes weren't in the pool, like invoker, shadow demon, batrider, doom (edit: actually, upon looking again doom was in the pool) and lycan.

    So the dota2 showmatches aren't really representative of the current dota scene.
  16. suiraclaw

    suiraclaw Member

    Uh, the dota 1 commentaries aren't much more exciting than the dota 2 commentaries.

    That said, here's some trivia about the whole hon vs dota thingy.
    - Quite a bit of heroes got numbers changed when porting because hon works faster. Mostly lower casttimes (especially on blinks).
    - TP's work slightly different: in dota they made it imopssible for a whole team to teleport to a tower to defend it, in hon they nerfed tp stones in such a way that tower diving is much safer (if you tp to a tower, it doesn't attack while you're tping).
    - Current hon metagame seems to be either "3 solo's + 2 roamers" or "one jungler and a defensive dual lane" (ie kraken + shaman). While you occasionally still see a trilane, carries not capable of soloing a lane for a while are pretty much nonexistant for the moment.
    - Intelligence heroes have much better items available: hellflower (orchid) and tablet of command (push stick) are much better than their dota counterpart and in addition nome's wisdom and spellshards are very valuable new int items.
    - Strength heroes benefit from chalice, sol's bulwark (cheap armor and faster pushing) and better hatchet.

    I have the impression that the biggest difference between hon and dota gameplay comes from int heroes getting a lot more farm in hon. In others words, it's a lot less interesting to get all gold on one hard carry. That combined with the tp difference is in my opinion the biggest cause of hon being more interesting for spectators at the moment.
  17. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    Definitely have to watch some HoN soon.

    In DotA 2 I'm cheering for NaVi, simply because they play such a nice to watch gamestyle. (getting everyone farmed, pushing and ganking really aggressiv early on) But I think it would be bad for the game if turtle/farm strats where not viable.

    Finally what do you think about weaver ? After watching lots of games I feel he should be nerved a bit. Almost always picked, hard to kill, solos fairly well and carries really hard.
    Maybe they should get more necrobooks to counter him, don't know ...

    Perhaps he is not OP, I just really dislike the hero :D
  18. KaiDASH

    KaiDASH Well-Known Member

    A whole team can teleport to the same tower at the same time, except for each teleport after the first takes slightly longer.

    And this change was years ago, so I'm not sure why you're talking about dota with any sort of authority, since you clearly haven't played or watched it (maybe outside of the dota2 stream).
  19. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    He didn't say it was a recent change, just a difference between dota and hon.

    Also I don't know which version is better. I feel DotA tower diving is easy enough (compared to LoL tower diving).
  20. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    Nope, I looked through the items, but missed it.

    Though there's one important difference.... Soul ring blows (ok maybe not blows, but isn't as good) while chalice is way better.

    Chalice is built from good starting items for a str or int hero: the +3 str and +3 int basic items, has no recipe cost (total cost is 300 + 325), and if you get a kill within 7 seconds of using Chalice it refunds the HP (so it's essentially free mana for ganks). All three combine to be VERY important to making the item really useful. Chalice is one of the easiest items to get in the game (hell you can almost buy it with starting gold) and offers good stats for 1 inventory slot early game item (+3str +3int) though you do give up the mana regeneration.

    Actually chalice used to have the passive mana regeneration as well, but it was too good and everyone brought it.
  21. Zejety

    Zejety Patreon Supporter

    Nope. Its Null Talisman auto-combines with Energy Booster (only 900g in HoN) to create HoN's Arcane Ring (135 mana).
  22. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    Weaver? definitely not overpowered. He has his easy escape for a reason...and that's because he's really weak. Wards/dust with a stun own him hard.

    It's cool seeing some old school faces in this tourney like Fear, LightofHeaven, and Maelk.
  23. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    Dota1 has evolved much more than you are seeing in the Dota2 streams. It's a lot more midgame orientated, with hard carries like Medusa/Drow/Morph borderline unplayable. Spectre is pretty much the only hard carry played to any effect nowadays, and that is because she has an unusually strong midgame presence for a hard carry (she can farm and gank at the same time).

    The reason this isn't reflected as much in the Dota2 streams is that a lot of the heroes that are so crushing midgame aren't in the pool. In particular I'm talking about the absence of Invoker, Shadow Demon, Batrider, Spider and Syllabear, which are currently very strong in Dota1.

    Some of this midgame emphasis can still be seen, however, with Clockwerk, Doom, Furion and Beastmaster getting a lot more play than they did in Medusa/Drow/Morph farmfest days. (EDIT: AA wasn't around back then, but he is a strong midgame hero)

    (also Dota fanboi)
  24. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    Syllabear used to be picked everygame back in 6.3. I think after the blink era, people forgot how to play him, or something. HE'S A FUCKING MONSTER. Bristleback's another hero I'm surprised hasn't been picked more in the post dagger time, too (Since he was a universal ban in those days).

    Beastmaster's always been picked from the moment they added him to the game.

    Heroes I'm shocked I haven't seen are Warlock, Twin headed Dragon, Puck, Omni Knight, Syllabear, and Magnataur.
  25. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    Alright, thanks for the clarification on the DotA scene, I'll chalk that up to not following it continuously and jumping to conclusions.
  26. Uthgar

    Uthgar Member

    Seems the game going on now is quite exciting to watch, at least the team fights. The announcers are sayings its a defensive game though? I am trying to watch and do work at the same time, so my judgement may be impaired!
  27. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    Weaver is played close to every game today and yesterday. I don't know if he is OP, but he is prefered over all other carries. Anti-Mage and Void are picked as well, Drow, Sniper not picked, Morph picked once today ... vs iG super farmed void could do nothing vs farmed weaver and I think weaver is far harder to suppress and farms much easier than void.
    Just felt nirvana did much better but no way to kill the weaver. Just keep in mind he can remove dust and run out of ward sight easily. Dunno ... maybe he is fine, but I don't like such a boring and unspectacular hero being the best carry available :D
  28. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    Yeah an exciting game; I disagree with the shoutcaster who said it was boring. It was a very tense defensive game where neither team had a clear advantage.
  29. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    Meh, the games are really boring and drawn-out compared to when I used to play, so it's strange seeing heroes like Weaver being top carries. After watching this recent match, I see why Weaver's better now. I'm still shocked that Warlock and Twin Headed dragon aren't picked.

    I just want MYM to win to prove that they're the kings of modern Dota.
  30. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    Teams probably want to pick THD, but can't take the risk. If he spawns facing away from the center of the map he won't make it out of the fountain until he finishes turning around at the 20:00 minute mark.
  31. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    User-You might want to familiarize yourself with the hero roster. Lot's has changed since .3. Weaver has been nerfed multiple times recently and still remains powerful. It's not his carry potential, it's his usefulness ALL game that makes him crazy. Likewise BM went through a very long spell of not being picked on the comp scene. Partly because of the farm meta and partly because of the "Oh no he's been nerfed! RUN!" mindset of high level players. Sylla wasn't viable at all for a long time because he's just too easy to pop or ignore. He needs so much farm that's better spent on harder carries.

    Also as far as picks go the hero pool is certainly effecting it.

    Lastly I think the thing that's really going to be important to watch is how the next balance patch handles all of this. The farm meta sucked, but they made steps to fix that with smoke, new items, and various nerfs/buffs. I still think the game could use a push to be more aggressive, but i'm curious as to how they'll accomplish that.
  32. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Wow, the vs Mineski.infinity ended up being surprisingly entertaining.
  33. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    I stopped playing around 6.52e, when the game became boring turtle/farm AOE. Beastmaster, to my knowledge, was picked from the moment they put him in the game all the way through then.

    Dota 2's current game plays a lot like .52e did, so I don't see what you're getting at....which is why I don't understand why I've seen Nightstalker picked. Was he greatly buffed recently? With the exception of smoke, the meta-game doesn't seem overly different from 6.3 and 6.52e dota. Maybe you can explain the differences to me, because I must be seeing things.
  34. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Wow... yea, you really need to catch up; BB was shit tier for like at least 10-20 straight versions.
    I believe the main factor is his new Aghanim's Scepter enhanced ult. It gives him a worthwhile late game utility to aspire to.
  35. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    Ya, especially with the existence of power supply/magic wand/whatever dota calls it. It pretty much shuts down his laning presence completely.
  36. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    All his night only shit actually gives him stuff during the day. Void slows for half duration. Fear silence, misses for half duration. This makes his laning not shit, and his agh's ult makes your team literally ungankable as it gives GIANT flying aoe vision at night.

    Again the meta isn't at all like 52e. right now. It's a lack of a complete roster that isn't helping. Lot's has changed. Go through some changelogs on getdota or look at the hero's on playdota. Hell just look at the items page and look at the new items. BB hasn't been viable in forever(although i think he's underestimated), and a lack of hero's like batrider(one of the BEST solo mids period) is huge.
  37. Polari

    Polari Well-Known Member

    Huh? Void basically raped the whole iG team whenever he got to initiate and got a couple of kills on Weaver. He was doing it up until the end until iG got off a smoke gank on Void and had him chainstunned to death. OK could have easily won if they pulled off a similar maneuver near iG's base, imo they simply got outplayed.
  38. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    And then it REALLY didn't help when they added an upgrade to Magic Stick in 6.60... like honestly UserLoser SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much changed in 6.60 ALONE it was almost like a new game.
  39. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    Oh, I see, wow...Nightstalker being a viable hero for competition..oh the times have changed. I played a few pub games of current Dota the other day...sigh, if Chaos Knight's stun wasn't so random, he'd be such a great fit in competitive play.
  40. Zejety

    Zejety Patreon Supporter

    IIRC Drow got banned yesterday. Probabably because the banning team had strong initiation, especially Enigma.
  41. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    MYM loses.

    And someone played sniper yesterday. Not sure if you're counting those or not.

    Hero's NOT in the tourney build
  42. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    I'm just gonna give my 2 cents. A hero should not be ok half of the game and spend the other half raping. He should spend both half raping. In other words, Night/Day based heroes really need to drink some venom and die. It's a very dim gimmick that can only be used once.
  43. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    Seems like you should clarify your statement, unless you are trying to say that all farming heroes are bad for dota?
  44. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    That's how he used to play, and that's why he sucked.

    Now day time he's a support caster/tank. Night he's a everything.

    It works fine and you don't spend half the game gimped so much as half the game low tier and half the game overpowered. Think phoneix but less obnoxious.

    It's worked fine and in a full hero pool he's still a conditional pick.
  45. Polari

    Polari Well-Known Member

    Can only be used once? Like, on one hero?
  46. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    going by that hero pool, I'm surprised I haven't seen a team ban Necro and pick Abaddon. Is solo/gank Tinker phased out in the current meta-game, as well?
  47. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    More like people learned to adapt to him, and he's VERY hard to play correctly and few players have the skills to pull off his late game. Abaddon is interesting to not see. He's not amazing but not trash, although i've kinda wondered if some of the teams are holding back any surprise strats for finals. Win with what you know works and then hit them with a gimmick if you need it.

    Hell honestly i'm surprised I haven't seen PotM every game. She's as good as she always is and her downsides(few that there fucking are) are even less apparent with this hero lineup.
  48. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    Tinker late game does require some dexterity...assuming his build by late game is manta style, blink dagger, BoT, (maybe orchid)..I don't know, but he can do some crazy gymnastics.

    PotM, yeah, in that hero pool there isn't much that directly can own her...though, strangely, Tinker's large burst damage is good against her in ganks.
    I haven't seen Zeus picked in any game....surprised he's not picked against teams who go 1-2 tanks. Sand King, I've only seen used in one game...surprised. I figured BeastMaster, Sand King, Vengeful Spirit, TideHunter, and Sven would be 100% picked or banned every game.
  49. Bucky

    Bucky Well-Known Member

    I saw Zeus picked once, in MYM vs. M5 I think.
  50. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    First and primarily that is what I meant. There can be only one vampire archetype because if there are more than one of these heroes they would either go into a tug of war over who casts last (if they depend on opposite parts of day) or they would make it into a game of chicken who wastes his day switcher spell first. Which in both cases is IMO an unsatisfying gameplay.

    It's really hard to think of why there needs to be a hero like this except to justify day/night shift.

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