DoTA and DoTA 2

Discussion in 'Now Playing' started by Eji1700, Aug 16, 2011.

  1. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    There are some other mechanics that could be played with though. For example what if a hero had an ability that during the day was a global sight range increase and during night was a global sight range decrease for the enemy team? Possibly with some other small effect to make it a useful ability. Just in general stuff that is equally strong, but different, in the 2 phases.

    Stuff like that would make it so that it wouldn't be in direct contention with the existing vampire hero.

    Anyways all of it kind of moot, the day night cycle is stupid baggage to begin with.
  2. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    Not to mention that a vampire hero doesn't steal health. I mean that's Vampires 101. DoE had a nice vamp hero. Bat form teleport, Next hit life steal, Vampiric aura and a channeled Grow Spell (kinda like Tiny grows except it makes him more red).

    Didn't Balnaar (or what's his name) had life drain during day at some point?

    Also GleamAxe's Night Stalker was probably most interestingly designed Day/Night hero (one during night one during day dual in twilight). I won't say best cause I have no idea how it would play.
  3. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Isn't Abaddon not in the pool? He looks grayed out to me.
    Virus picked Zeus vs OK.Nirvana.cn it didn't really work out for them.
    Night/Day shift matters beyond Night Stalker. The difference in vision range for most heroes/units is significant and thus ganking/juking is easier at night.
  4. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    Does night affect wards, because from what I can tell those suckers give out loads and loads of vision.
    It only matters superficially. If you removed it when making MOBA (does LoL have D/N cycles?) it would have less impact than removing deny. I'm not saying that it doesn't contribute to ganking but overall it's effect is miniscule. My bet ganks (if there isn't a hero that is specially made to hugely benefit from day/night) happen and succeed regardless of time of day.
  5. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    Besides if we're trying to make the game more offensive then why not have it be 'night' all the time?
  6. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    Ganking isn't effected by time of day...like at all. Nightstalker has never had natural lifesteal ability. The Warcraft 3 hero Dread lord, however, does. Line of Sight can be used to avoid ganking (Merlini was a master at this), but more often than not, line of sight isn't going to save heroes who are being ganked.
  7. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Abbaddon isn't actually in the pool. He is actually greyed out.

    And after the sight rebalance it's easier for some hero's to gank at night because they have double the night vision of some other hero's. That might have been changed back, I can't recall.
  8. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    It doesn't effect wards but it does lower the vision of scouting units like Beastmaster's Greater Hawk. It also lowers the vision of Towers. Admittedly it doesn't make much of a difference most of the time for most heroes and could probably be removed with little consequence. Alternatively it doesn't really hurt the game to have it, so I don't really see a good reason to remove this nuance.
    That isn't true. Yes, it doesn't really have allot of bearing on if a team will attempt a gank but it does make it allot easier to get into position (especially for a gank on mid lane); although I suppose Smoke of Deceit significantly reduces the importance.
    Drow is the first that comes to mind. She has almost full vision at night and can cast silence from outside the sight range most heroes have at night.
  9. unentschieden

    unentschieden Member

    The current Day/Night cycle in Dota doesn´t really appear to have a purpose. Shure, it´s a steroid for Nightstalker but why does it it occur naturally? To be usefull NS needs to have his "now I´m good" available reliably - thus the ult.

    An alternative I could imagine to the mechanic would be to not make it a cycle but a soft timelimit. Night falls ~30 minutes in and acts as aggression enhancer, most likely with more severe changes.
  10. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    To end the whole "why don't they pick ..." discussion, I found this list of implemented heroes.

    Strength:
    Earthshaker
    Sven
    Tiny
    Beastmaster
    Clockwerk
    Axe
    Pudge
    Sandking
    Slardar
    Tidehunter
    Nightstalker
    Doombringer

    Agility:
    Antimage
    Drow Ranger
    Mirana
    Morphling
    Vengeful Spirit
    Sniper
    Nevermore
    Razor
    Venomancer
    Faceless Void
    Viper
    Weaver
    Spectre

    Intelligence:
    Crystal Maiden
    Puck
    Storm Spirit
    Windrunner
    Zeus
    Lina
    Shadow Schaman
    Tinker
    Nature's Prophet
    Enchantress
    Chen
    Lich
    Lion
    Witch Doctor
    Enigma
    Necrolyte
    Pugna
    Dazzle
    Leshrac
    Dark Seer
    Ancient Apparation
  11. Kai-

    Kai- Well-Known Member

    I was actually referencing that, I just forgot to include it in my post @_@

    But yeah, many quality heroes are missing, so these dota2 games aren't representative of the current dota metagame at all.
  12. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

    When I play devourer, it is easier to gank at night, because opponents cannot see you from specifics spots, when in the daytime they can see you.

    It definitely does make a difference
  13. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    I guess I'd be OK with a game where night made more of a difference, but I think the amount of difference it currently makes is fine. At the very least it adds game space at minimal player tax.
  14. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    Bring back broken .52e dazzle!
  15. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    I am currently collecting all Pick/Ban data to make a little analysis.

    Does anyone have the bans of the very first game ? (Ehome vs iG)
    There is no replay due to reload :(
  16. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    People have already done that. should be able to find it through google, but i'll see if i can find it. It's a spreadsheet.

    Edit:
    Here ya go. Dota players are stats fanatics:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...HdoTXhrMFRoQ1UtdUlROVBFWU9Ka3c&hl=en_US#gid=0
  17. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    Thanks mate, but the ban data is missing.

    On this sheet Ancient Apparation is 5/4 win/loss looking pretty average. But he has been banned in 90 % the games he didn't appear in, therefore his powerlevel actually is much higher than average picked hero.
    He only appears if a) the opponent team has a strategy that has no problem vs AA or b) he got traded against another super tier hero. Therefore his w/l is average for an far above average hero.
  18. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Dammit I thought it was on there. I know someone's keeping track of it. I'll go find it.

    Remember though that any power level gleamed from this is with more than half the hero roster missing, and with the possibility of the "Save that Shit for Nationals" mindset of limping through early to save your good stuff for late(although not too likely.) I forgot to add that certain key pushing hero's(brood, lycan) aren't in the game so this is part of the reason for such a defensive meta in this tourney. Most Chinese teams have been doing 30 min push strats.

    Edit: I updated the original post with a link to the hero's being used in the tourney, a quick description of their abilities, and their role on a team. This could be helpful for those unfamiliar or out of date. Although the info isn't perfect.

    Seems the ban info for that one game is still mostly missing. I'm sure some people know but no one's posted it up yet as far as i can find. It'll come out shortly though. If you want to sift for it yourself your best bet might be http://www.playdota.com/forums/matches/

    Oh and on the match right now I have a super soft spot for morphling since I've played him since the beginning(he's ALWAYS been broken, but only recently hit the scene.). So i'm happy to see him in his new glory.
  19. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    Thanks again. Much better than the hero list I used to identify the bans :D.

    Really annoying they don't put them on the replay page. Always have to skip into the replay till minute 6-8 and write them down ... only good thing is, this way I also get the pick and ban order - in case anyone is interested in those :D

    EDIT:
    Got the picks/bans on youtube.
  20. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    Looks like Tiny must be a top ban...or he's not picked more for some reason.
  21. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    Looks like the surprise pick that people were saving is Faceless Void. Picked once yesterday and twice today.
  22. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    Actually Tiny is not banned at all.

    I am at another computer right now, so I don't have my statistics, but I think he showed up in 2 or 3 matches so far.

    Morphling rockt this tournament. Rarely showed up but always won if I am not mistaken.
    Also Morphling players showed the best farm by far. 14 min linkens sphere is impressiv.

    But in the end I'm still most impressed by Na'Vi. iG put up a really good fight, even winning in early game. But once Artstyle got the ganking/pushing party rolling they simply pushed them of the map.
    On the other hand EHOME disappointed me this round. Picking up Anti Mage early and some decent early nukers should lead to early dominance, hard ganking and some towers. But it was Scythe that contained them and easily won the lategame. I know they are chinese and want to play a perfectly secure game, but seriously if this means turtle pick a superior lategame. - Or don't hide in base and go kill stuff :(

    Finally tomorrow 7:51 I'll take the train to cologne :D
    First I'll watch SC2 (I'm going with a friend who was in the same clan as Deloader or something like tat), later I'll watch the winner brackets final and take a look at this new LoL map - and probably GW2 as well. :)

    EDIT:
    Deloader will play TLO at 10:00 - don't know if anyone around here follows the sc2 tournament ... maybe logo or so ...
  23. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    So the only heroes who weren't banned/picked were Pudge and Axe right?
  24. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Which is not that surprsing. Both have potential but not at all in this lineup.

    Axe has an Aoe taunt(think rammus) that goes through BKB(or used too. Not sure about in 2) and is generally really good against physical DPS and melee. Especially melee agi.

    Pudge is a mid game ganker with some unique mechanics, but wouldn't bring too much to a team right now.

    That said either could work(just like tiny).
  25. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Honestly I'm surprised those are the ONLY heroes that didn't see play. I really didn't expect to see any Drow or Shadow Fiend play either.
  26. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    Axe and Pudge could work. But really just in theory.

    Pudge gets worse and worse the better the teams get simply he because he lives of ganks and surprise hooks are nearly impossible on this level of play. Maybe just maybe you could just pick him as tanky initiator (running in front, hopefully hooking something and dismembering the carry). Though I think there are better heroes for this. (Beastmaster roar goes through bkb as well, has more range and a aoe effect beside the disable -> better single target disable and maphawk is so much stronger than anything pudge has as long as the hooks rarely hit)
    Axe is just so fragile without serious amounts of farm. He gets nuked down easily and doesnt really tank well without vanguard as well. Then he needs dagger to initiate, maybe a hood to counter burst spells (tons of burst damage in this pool). He really is only useful if he can survive his initiation and then he really has to hit it perfectly due to the small aoe in comparison to Tidehunter, Earthshaker, Sandking, Enigma or other aoe initiator. Finally his ulti is kind of useless. Very expensive and short range. If you hit this in short range into a kill you could most likely get the kill anyway.
    Maybe it is good to kill stuff like super tanky weaver lategame, but really thats not much for an ultimate.

    In contrast to this Tiny has the highest burstdamage in the game. :)
  27. LoneKnight

    LoneKnight Well-Known Member

    Axe pretty much needs a new ult. Something that actually ties into his other skills instead of being a random/situational close range burst dmg spell on an initiator.

    And yeah, I would LOVE to see a high level pudge but nobody is conceited (brave?) enough to pick him.
  28. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    HoN Axe has a charge attack* instead of the dot which helps a lot (makes him less reliant on blink dagger). Still his ult is awful and he needs so much farm to do well. Maybe his ult should be something that covers these weaknesses rather than a skill generally only used to rob kills from your carry.

    *Does 300% base damage, gives + armor/magic armor when charging, and causes targets to have -50% damage dealt, but +50% attack speed (combos with his taunt).
  29. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    Don't really now. I was thinking along the line of getting guaranteed helix. Upping attackspeed and reducing damage is kind of artifical way to get the same result in a more complicated way. It needs some additional effect though, since only increasing helix probability is kind of boring.

    A dash could work was well, but I feel he'd get very close to magnus (dash, skill pulling enemies together and a skill dealing aoe damage close to himself).

    How about: *double/triple helix probability and add 10/20/30% magic damage reduction for 10s* cooldown 60 - 90 s
    Still needs dagger but doesn't need hood. Vanguard/Dagger and go
    Also without hood he'd be more squishy to burst if caught without ulti on leaving a weakness. Finally if the skill is useful in lots of situations, if he uses call the helix aspect is important since there won't be many spells flying his way anyway.
    But meh ... don't know, so passiv :D
  30. LoneKnight

    LoneKnight Well-Known Member

    Yeah I was thinking of a charge ult. I'd probably rework call to give miss chance and +AS to stuff it hits instead of the bonus armor to Axe instead that scales probably. Or hell, give that effect to battle hunger. It kinda sucks as it is because last hitting is pretty much the bread and butter of the game, at least you could get lucky and mess up some last hits while also comboing with the counter and the taunt.
  31. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    You are all aware that axe has been a top pick before, and that some of his skills are less than stellar because he has one of the best disables in the game?
  32. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    The problem with axe is that he requires blink dagger. Because of this, he's not as good of an initiator as Sand King, Tiny, Sven, or anybody else with a stun. I think they should replace his hunger spell with something more effective in team fights. If they did this, Axe would probably be top pick. Another solution would be to maybe give him better strength gain, so he'd be somewhere along the lines of Tree or 6.37 Sand King. This would compensate for his lack of ability to stun.

    Pudge does rely on ganks, but he's a hero that doesn't require much items to be effective. He's a low-cost hero, and that makes him a viable pick for how effective he is with little items. Going by the hero pool in Dota 2, most of the lineup doesn't favor pudge much.

    On another note, I hope Na'vi wins the Dota 2 tournament undefeated.
  33. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    Top pick? What patch?

    I remember Axe getting picked sometimes to backdoor creeps, but I never remember him being a top pick.

    An interesting point of discussion is why Valve decided to bring over the heroes it did. The only one that is obvious to me is NOT bringing over Invoker, because he would take 3x the resources to code as other heroes and would just be autobanned anyways.

    I think part of their goal was to code "iconic" heroes that have been around for a long time rather than heroes that were relevant to the tournament scene. So Sniper gets the nod over Batrider, and Pudge wins vs. Broodmother? But that doesn't explain Ancient Apparition being in the pool.
  34. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    I don't see how Axe would be a top pick over any stun initiator...ever.
  35. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Aoe disable that GOES THROUGH BKB.

    Seeing as how bkb is REQUIRED on just about every carry in the game and it lets them just wreck your team with impunity it's kinda a unique ability.

    He was a top pick before the BKB nerf when entire teams would run it, and still was around them.

    He doesn't need blink as a skill because he farms very very quickly if he needs to. Grabbing dagger asap and then letting your team get the rest of the farm isn't hard at all. If anything it's just that battle hunger is trash.
  36. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    In HoN Helix also includes assurance of it landing. From the skill description.

    This is in addition to the % probability.


    Also lego with charge still feels very different than Magmus. The charge isn't instant and can be interrupted. Even after that the way you work with helix and the ult feels very different than being able to use sandstorm or epicenter.
  37. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    Are your referring to the BKB nerf right after 6.48b where the duration was changed to be reduced upon each use? I've never seen Axe picked in any league game I've played in or higher level match I've watched.

    Sand King was the top initiator before his strength gain was nerfed sometime around 6.4. After that, it became anybody with a stun. During blink dagger hey day...I'd have to say Queen of Pain, Sven, Sand King (still), centaur, Mag, and Lina were always picked over Axe. I think Puck was added shortly after 6.48b, who replaced Queen of Pain for blink initiator.

    Also, remember, I think this was before Vangard was added to the game, so he couldn't farm as easily.
  38. Xom

    Xom Well-Known Member

    Is there a pattern to what BKB blocks?
  39. LoneKnight

    LoneKnight Well-Known Member

    It's... pretty random. The more "coded" the spell is, the less likely BKB blocks it. Since call basically takes control of the enemy hero to attack axe, that's coded from scratch and doesn't really use the built in spells the game has (BTW this was buggy for a while and you could dampen/nullify it by spam clicking so your hero would try to go/attack where you clicked instead of attacking axe... was fixed later though I think).

    That said, it's possible to code such spells so that they don't go through BKB so uh... good luck figuring that out? And if you think that's bad... Linken is even worse. I remember it kept triggering from Sniper's headshot.

    Also, sorry if that sounds lame I'm not really up to date with DotA and not sure what skills got recoded, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
  40. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    The main thing to remember with Linkens is that "global" spells (Zeus, Silencer) behave as though they're really five single-target spells like Sven's stun or whatever.
  41. galefrost

    galefrost Member

    If I remember correctly, BKB behaves pretty reasonably. A good rule of thumb is that it blocks all non-ultimate skills, and all magic damage from ultimate skills. Repel behaves similarly. Note that this doesn't include activated abilities on items, which is what allows diffusal blade to counter Omniknight's Repel, which behaves pretty similarly.

    There are a couple oddities related to triggered spells. Some ultimates, like Tidehunter's Ravage, use triggers to spawn units that actually do the work. For example, if I remember correctly, Ravage spawns a bunch of dummy units under you that each cast an Impale in a different direction. Since these dummy units don't cast an ultimate level spell, Ravage will be completely blocked by BKB, including the stun. I know Crystal Maiden's ultimate also spawns dummy units to cast Frost Nova on themselves, and I'm pretty sure the slow doesn't go through BKB, but I'm not 100% confident on that.

    Linken's behaves really weirdly with triggered spells. For some spells, the initial ability is only used for targeting, and doesn't actually produce the effect. I can't really think of many examples off the top of my head, but I think Zeus's Chain Lightning actually spawns a dummy unit to cast the actual Chain Lightning spell (I may be wrong on this). I think they did this because in War3, the engine is hardcoded to prevent you from casting Chain Lightning again until the original stops bouncing. In these instances, Linken's will block the original cast, but the dummy unit's "real" spell will still go through. One of the more amusing examples was with Alchemist's old Unstable Concoction (maybe it still works with the current one). Unstable Concoction is a channeled spell that stuns the target for the amount of time that you channeled. When using this against someone with Linken's, starting the channel would actually pop the Linken's for you, allowing the actual stun to always go through!
  42. UserLoser

    UserLoser New Member

    When in doubt, use doom. It used to (And might still) go through avatar. I don't know if Linken's sphere has had its code altered over time...it's one of the older items, and so many heroes have been added to the game since. Most spells in those days were coded based on storm bolt....and I don't think that's the case, now, so I'm not up to speed as to exactly how Linken's is coded.
  43. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    I don't know but iirc Linken is merely spell shield made to activate really, really fast. If it was coded then it could stop any damage any time.
  44. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    For Dota nerds that care:

    http://www.gosugamers.net/general/thread.php?id=687540
    http://itsme-gaming.blogspot.com/2011/01/hero-skills-blocked-by-linkens-sphere.html

    Basically, no, it's not easy and there is no pattern. :D Linkens used to be a lot worse, and was reworked a while ago to be somewhat more intuitive (for instance, Furion Sprout no longer triggers Linkens and goes through). But there is still esoteric war3 engine BS like ES fissure doing damage and triggering if you click on them, but not interacting if you don't.


    EDIT: Pudge in the grandfinals! I love you Na'Vi.
  45. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Holy shit, Pudge just got picked!
  46. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    Just a quick note:

    First match of grand final, Na'Vi vs EHOME. First time those teams meet in the tournament.

    Na'Vi lastpicked PUDGE.

    EDIT:
    Pudge doesn't seem to be effective :-/
  47. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    The Pudge wasn't a complete failpick, and part of the problem was ArtStyle fed a bit. But still, hard to think he was really the best pick there.
  48. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    Co-operative jungling with chen and bm! Baller.
  49. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    Good final and worthy winner.

    EHOME the only team that could take a map from them, but in the end Na'Vi just dominated this tournament with a super aggressiv and nice to watch playstyle. Very good for dota in general imo.

    I do like to watch matches like the m5 vs EHOME match as well, but this was just epic.
  50. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    yeah that was a great final match and game, especially with the tension of EHOME having the superior farm, but being unable to turn that into an advantage.

    I'm curious if EHOME would have done better with another choice besides Lich. They seemed to be lacking disables during the teamfights. I'm guessing they wanted lich for the +armor and to slow down Na'vi's farm, but I don't know if that really was the right move.

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