DoTA and DoTA 2

Discussion in 'Now Playing' started by Eji1700, Aug 16, 2011.

  1. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    I see the point of people against it, but I believe in many cases it gives more than it takes. Anyway I don't think it matters much, it just makes the map a little less bland with the shops placed where they are.

    Imo mana doesn't carry lots of information up to the point where constantly checking enemy mana can be used to deceive you. You have to click enemy heroes to check item progression anyway and you want to check if he has bkb/hex/radience/manta or other big items that change the powerlevel of a hero a lot.
    What I don't understand is no manabars for allies. This is just dumb up to the point where it doesn't matter for high level clan play (teamspeak helps a lot here) but makes play more difficult for lower levels.

    You don't want to rightclick-move for pickup so that you can manage the crow entirely via hotkeys to not leave the lane with your screen. (maybe waterd might like it as soon as he gets used to it, I think his main argument against currier system was that you have to interrupt lasthitting for shopping)
    Also you don't want to auto-drop on leaving the base because in higher lvl of play you carry items for different heroes that play on the same lane simultaneously. For pubbing you only need two keys, deliver and move faster.
  2. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    That's true for the side shops, but doesn't explain the secret shop.

    Your statements are true, but don't line up with the way the crow seems to work.

    In HoN you have Q/W abilities, E for deliver, R for return. This sets up a perfectly fine system that accomplishes what you want. You don't need to use anything but hotkeys to manage the crow, you don't need to leave the lane with your screen, and you can deliver to multiple heroes in one trip.

    DotA takes this scheme, puts an auto-return on deliver (which is fine/good really), then adds 2 additional hotkeys that seem to require clicking or provide ambiguous functionality.

    Even if those abilities ARE useful/good in whatever they do, they are clearly more niche than deliver, return, speed boost, and shield but they occupy the Q & W hotkeys for some reason which seems really backwards.
  3. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    What I don't like of the crow system (or the lose gold when you die system) , Is that you have to be worry about what to buy , buy it as soon as you can and in several cases delivr as soon as you can, while you are doing the fun stuff, harrassing, last/hit deny or even worse gank. "oh, Im going to gank, but I should bring the improved boots and buy a bracer so in case the gank fails i dont lose gold" Its pretty annoying to me, very highly so.

    Regardless of everything the fact I have to open the shop while I'm not on base or dead, and doing something interesting, inmediatly makes hon/dota inferior to LoL to me. Yeah , it annoys me THAT BAD.

    For the record it already annoys me in LOL that you dont queue items in shop and it doesnt autobuy the queued items as soon as you hit the platform.
  4. Polari

    Polari Well-Known Member

    So it's better to force you to stop doing something interesting and head back to base if you want items?
  5. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    In DotA 2 you can put an item on the quick bar and just click a single hotkey to purchase a component of that item (or the item itself) whenever you have the gold to do so. So you only need to deal with opening the shop when you complete an item and want to place the next item on the quick buy bar.

    Gold loss is always a bit of a pain in the ass, but I think it adds way more to the game than it detracts.
  6. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    100% yes, It means I dont have to multitask, I have to make a strategic decision and then commit to it, instead of multitask 1000% yes, its better to me.
  7. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    I agree with WaterD on this one, I didn't think I'd like not being able to buy items in lane in League, but the damn crow is just such a pain in the arse and you have to go back to the tower anyway so you can click on it without being owned (or worse, you can't do that and have to quickly buy something before you die and lose the gold, which just fills me with rage to begin with since I prefer not to have to memorise all the goddamn hotkeys for that labyrinthine shop, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY REARRANGE IT MONTHS IN TO MAKE IT MORE CONFUSING IN HON)
  8. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    Crow is not the same thing as gold loss on death + buying in lane. They're two largely independent systems (Crow depends on buying in lane, but not the other way around). Plus both of you seem to ignore the quick buy feature which is a huge step up for DotA usability (though I wish it was more robust).
  9. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Crow adds to the game a TON, although i admit i dislike the micro of it and if i were to design a new system i'd probably work around that somehow.

    In lane/secret shops also add a ton to the laning phase and make items and decisions much bigger.

    Waterd you should never, ever, ever go to a shop before a gank because of money for bracers. Ever. If you're worring about 175 gold, you're doing it wrong. If you're worried because you've finally scraped up the gold for relic...then why are you ganking. You've got relic. The situation you describe shouldn't actually occur all that often in a high level game because the area where you've almost got the gold, but might not want to gank, is rare. If you're the kind of hero who's saving up for relic then your team should fucking know that's what you're doing and not worry when you don't come to gank(and chances are you probably can't anyways since that's usually a core item if you rush it).

    Complaining that you can't just rush in, die, and then buy stuff seems silly from my perspective because that's how it's always been to me. It's rarely and issue because if you're playing a ganker(WD for example) then you don't care. If you're playing a carry what are you doing ganking at that point? If you're anyone else gank. It's better for the team that you get a kill on their carry than you get better boots. You're really overexaggerating the amount of a decision or an issue it is, and gold loss brings a LOT more to the carry vs gankers aspect of the game.
  10. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    I see a lot in replays, and I played with high level people in dota, and they buy stuff before doing things. So I dont think that 'you shouldn't" it's true.

    Also carries gank all the time in Dota. And they do too in LoL even if ganking is less prevalent.

    Also it seems crazy not to buy bracers if you have the money, as gameplay wise it has no cost, but it has gain, except for some micro, people with crazy micro can do it all the time no problem.
  11. brainof7

    brainof7 Member

    anyone here actually playing dota currently? Or is this just discussion right now?
  12. Ilk1986

    Ilk1986 Active Member

    Main reason I like dota is that AM, TB, PA, and Spectre have badass models and generally turn the game in badass ways. DotA 2...they don't look as cool :(.
  13. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    I still play a few games a week. Nothing serious either just skrims with my brothers and his friends or the occasional pub.

    Edit- bracer recipe is the worst possible item in the game gold for stats. It's literally there to help you grab some space and very mild bonuses. Obviously if there's a crow at the fountain and you've got the cash and need the space grab it, but if you're a carry saving up for something larger you're not going into every battle worrying you might lose your bracer cash.
  14. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    I was under the impression that you can customise your hotkey-setup very well in dota2. Can't you set the important abilities where you like them to be ?
    Also there might be a hotkey to order the currier to resume his previous task when you interrupted him, I never use this in dota but it might be handy for others.

    Not really true. Either you go for a big item, then you complete/buy big parts before doing some action or you go for small stuff which you buy whenever you are in base and happen to have the money. What I don't like is ninja-buying stuff when you are about to die, I rarely do it but I think it occurs more often in higher levels.

    What is more important imo is the simple fact that you can actively set back the opponent instead of just trying to stop him farm for a while. I think there would be faaaaar more ganks and action on SR in LoL if you could destroy your opponents farm by killing him. But this derails the topic.

    I play wc3 dota on dotalicious 3-4 days of the week - but my reactions and lasthitting sucks like crazy :D
  15. Polari

    Polari Well-Known Member

    I play HoN and watch DotA.

    What are you talking about? The only two changes I can remember since beta are Bulwark shifting the items in protective tab by one and the introduction of the new shop, which I immediately reverted.
  16. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    I think that is the other mysterious hotkey (in addition to drop all items).

    You can customize the keys pretty well, but either you're using QWERT for all unit/hero abilities, or you use letter based hotkeys, so (r)ocket.

    Really if the 2 extra crow abilities have unique and distinct purposes it's not too big of a deal, just a minor complaint about ordering of abilities and the feedback you get from using them (courier abilities seem to have no sound effect making it a little unclear if the courier is actually doing anything when you hit the keys).
  17. unentschieden

    unentschieden Member

    The biggest advantage of the LoL buying system is that you aren´t rushed when buying. You are either dead or waiting for the recall+restore.
    The crow is a neat feature if used well but a source of drama in any other instance.
  18. brainof7

    brainof7 Member

    I guess I was trying to gauge interest in getting a group from sirlin.net playing occasionally with the last question. I can play a few heroes at an alright level (for pubs) but I definately need to practice playing early game farming heroes to do anything since I am too used to lasthitting in LOL. I play mostly roaming STR heroes but I can play certain INT ones too.
  19. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    I play DotA2 off and on. Usually with friends, but we never have a full group (and we're all bad to varying degrees). I think there's a Sirlin.net Steam group, I'd say join that and maybe games can be organized. At the very least it'll give names to add as friends.

    That's kind of a clunky circular thing to say. In DotA you're rushed because you spend less overall time in a position where you can't do anything. When you're at the fountain it's very brief, there's never a reason to stay longer than it takes you to heal up (which is fast especially since the regen buff persists temporarily as you move away) and because of tangos, bottle, and other factors you don't need to heal up often. Trips to the fountain are usually one way as well because of TP scrolls so you rarely get the luxury of shopping while walking back to town. Sure there's an incentive to buy so you don't lose gold, but even without gold loss you'd buy in lane all the time since you rarely have to go back to town due to crow and everything else.
  20. BeastofBurden

    BeastofBurden Well-Known Member

    I just got a beta invite and I'm a huge Dota newbie so that probably explains why I'm not really impressed after my first 5 games. Slow pacing, archaic feeling in how you do certain stuff at the item shop/mule or the delay on some of the attack/spell animations while last hitting is weird. The heroes I played seemed boring & weak unless you knew some in-depth build order and use certain clunky items activates. Dying is super bad and the importance of last hitting makes for overly cautious gameplay or just dumb boring farming strategies. 1 sided games are a pain so playing near hour long games is torture along with no concede option. The reasoning behind having no concede option is lol, and I know you can just quit the game but there will be a penalty in retail.

    I simply just don't have a long history with this Dota1 to care how "perfect" or true to Dota 1 it is, so I understand why my friend absolutely loves this. I'm happy for the Dota players that they got a game they want, but as a casual player of this genre (or not even), I look forward to Blizzards Dota's direction. ATM I rather play SotiS on SC2 or just no MOBA at all, but my friends keep insisting I play with them and playing with friends is fun.
  21. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    Holy shit, they didn't even include concede? That is like a 100% necessary feature, VALVE WHAT ARE YOU DOING!?
  22. BeastofBurden

    BeastofBurden Well-Known Member

    This:

  23. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    Wow. I know quality isn't correlated with popularity or anything, but I can't understand how this will not implode violently in their faces. Getting games over with immediately after they've ended but 45 minutes before the game finishes playing itself out is an absolutely crucial component of a non-rage-filled experience, fulfilling or otherwise.
  24. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    I can't imagine it will stand. Most likely after observing/datamining a ton of the games played in beta they'll implement some system. Even something as simple as anonymous voting post 20 minutes could work well. Each player could thumbs up "surrender" at any time and if all 5 players on a team have it thumbs up at once the game ends. The public voting from HoN shames people too much into conceding even if they don't want to.

    That's more a symptom of being low level than the game itself. Newer players tend to be more cautious (once they get their bearings) because it can be difficult to see the gank opportunities and if your team lacks wards early it's even harder to gank. Plus a lack of even rudimentary organization common with lower level players make people farm more because they don't know how/when/where to group up or they fall into the opinion that the need items even as support. Meanwhile a good support can be wearing just normal boots and a bracer and think, "Alright good to go". Likewise supports might farm more than they should in lane slowing down a carry/lane partner that needs farm. If you have a carry who is supported in farming by their lane partner (rather than competing with) they mature much faster and the pace of the game increases. There's also the issue of newer people reading the map poorly and being too afraid to move into enemy territory alone to go for ganks.
  25. Polari

    Polari Well-Known Member

    I saw at least one guy on the HoN forums who liked the no-concede, saying he feels there's much less bitching and moaning in DotA 2 when you can't just start spamming concede votes and blaming everyone. My initial reaction was the same as for most in this thread, but I don't know, I guess it's worth trying.

    Also I second what Logo said about low level play. One of most notable problems in low level games is that people have no idea how different heroes work or what their gameplan is. It's five allied solos each trying to get their own farm regardless of whether they are Rylai or Spectre, and cooperating only when there's a push or something. I could produce a long rant about all the things that always go wrong but I don't think this is the place for it. I just deleted a couple of those when they were getting out of hand after a few sentences. I don't know, maybe watch some high level replays and see for yourself. If you're comfortable watching HoN, here's a collection of some fairly recent 1900 MMR pubs.
  26. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

    No concede is 10000000000000% horrible, I missed hon's system immediately
  27. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Coming from dota to lol and HoN that first paragraph has always been how I feel. I'll admit some form of concede option needs to be there, but the amount of people who just give up and whine the moment they can is stupid. I'd honestly rather they just leave.

    As for the second, I think that depends. I've had plenty of Bnet pubs on US east(which for some reason is legitly better than west) which feature smart hero picks, coordination, and working around stuff when someone says "nope fuck stun, I want PA". Hell I stay away from certain supports now because I know they're supposed to ward bitch, and I don't want to, and it seems the level of skill has risen to the point that people will expect you to. I've seen plenty of pub rylai's running around with one in nova, a few in frost, mostly maxed aura, carrying wards and maybe boots, which is what you're supposed to do.
  28. BeastofBurden

    BeastofBurden Well-Known Member

    Glad Blizzard are going the other direction and attempting to fix a fundamentally socially flawed game/experience such as Dota. I'm willing to bet Dota 2 will have some kind of concede system in the end. Imagine if you couldn't leave a losing SC2 game without an added some kind of penalty (teams or 1v1) and instead you have to let your opponent kill all your remaining buildings because of that official response posted earlier... jokes
  29. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    Well lately you have two effects....

    1. People left DotA for HoN/LoL leaving behind only more dedicated DotA players
    2. HoN/Lol have MMR ratings to filter people around

    So in both games/cases if you are playing at a reasonable MMR you will find people will generally know what they're doing more. It's only the lowbie/new levels in one of the new games you'll run into a problem.

    ----

    It's fine to not want to play DotA2, but there seems to be this attitude that DotA2 is somehow wrong for being what it is. That's just silly/stupid, DotA2 is there purely to move DotA into a space where it can continue to grow, iron out some limitations of the engine, and support e-sports. I don't see how there can be anything wrong about taking a game that millions of people play and moving it to somewhere where it can be maintained and supported.
  30. BeastofBurden

    BeastofBurden Well-Known Member

    I realize this which is why I'm going to refrain some feedback about Dota2 that would change it into a different game or praise other MOBA's for this and that. It's like when people say SC should be this and that while totally making into another type RTS. It's like leave my competitive game alone! Like I said earlier, I'm happy that Dota players get a game true to the original. I'm just happy there are other options as well.

    Also isn't LoL like the number 1 moba? From my limited knowledge of the game, wasn't it designed to remove what's "wrong" to "improve" the game experience for players? Yeah it's a totally different game now, but look where that development attitude got them.
  31. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    What do you mean by number 1? I think it has the largest playerbase, but the competitive playerbase seemed to be unusually small for a long time (I haven't paid enough attention to know if that's still true...)

    Random question, note that I never played Dota. I had some friends of mine that were really into competitive Dota, then transitioned into competitive HoN, and then transitioned into competitive LoL, tell me they don't want to play Dota2. When I asked why, they said the main reason was that they think LoL runes/masteriess/summoners provide huge diversity, and let you play the same hero in multiple different ways. While Dota and HoN had more static heroes that can only be effectively played in some single optimal way that they were designed around. And they consider it strictly less fun to go back to the old Dota system.

    Does that seem reasonable or not?
  32. BeastofBurden

    BeastofBurden Well-Known Member

    Yeah I meant largest player base. I overhear it is the weaker competitive one out of the pack many times too.
  33. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    It's possible that your friends like more LoL for other reason than what they claim, not because they lie, because they really dont know any better.
    Runes, masteries summoner spells are just a big annoyance that imo do not add much to the game.
  34. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    ^^That was my opinion, too, which is why I asked. They're way, way, way better at LoL than I am, and generally smart about games design in general, but they don't really study it the way anyone hanging around on these boards do, so maybe it was just a snap answer that doesn't deserve much credit. Still... surprised me.
  35. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    I agree totally with both of these. I don't like lol's system personally for a lot of reasons, or the direction they've gone. I still recognize they have a large playerbase with people who enjoy it, and that's fine too. It just won't ever attract me.

    As for lol stuff adding depth-
    There was a really good sequelitis on castlevania one and two, and how the rest of the series took after 2, which he actually felt was a much weaker game. Lots of people though like MMO concepts because it reinforces(although sometimes falsely) the idea of progress and choice, and they aren't really wrong to like that. I have a friend who plays competitive lol and leads a team. I often HEAVILY disagree with his item builds and usage(as i think most of this board would judging by their thoughts on items and heros) but he still thinks he's great. If that makes him happy, sure. I have no doubt a real organized team would squash him, but just getting to level 30 feels like an achievement, even though it's really just the start of the real game.

    I'm not one of those players, and I find it very hard to even rate LoL in the same category as dota when I personally look at it as having to play random at the arcade, vs the guy who dropped extra cash and got to practice with his favorite character in SF. yeah it's a free game, but the cost to unlock everything is insane, and grinding will ALWAYS bug me. I have something like 10 years(or close to) of dota played. Although i play less now, but for long stretches of that it was literally at LEAST 7 games a night. The idea that i now have to fuck around in low level LoL and buy runes before i even get a chance to pretend to compete is annoying. I really like this style of game because I think adjusting to whatever level you want is easy. If you want to be casual be casual, if you want to compete go for it, and if you want to be inbetween go nuts. That's why i hate the stat tracking, conceding, grinding aspects. Jumping in a game with the intention of just having a fun game, and maybe not doing my actual best is quickly becoming a sin in all 3, and it bugs the hell out of me. Especially when i'm still probably better than the people screaming at me.
  36. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    You can see it another way, that is really expensive. You can divide the grinding to 1/3 for levels and runes if you pay boosters, and to nothinginess related champs if you put big bucks (in my case it was 250 dollars for my main). The smarter stuff you can do (that I did later) is to buy an account at level 30 with basic runes for 60-80 bucks depends on what it has. (but doesn't account champs)
  37. unentschieden

    unentschieden Member

    Dota thread: talk about LoL anyway....

    LoLs summoner system rubs certain people the wrong way but it has very nice effects for the business model and "casual" players. Persistent accomplishments/progress/achievements are a great method to keep players engaged, that is a scientific fact. The rune system is a reliable free-currency-"drain". The customisation aspects frant more nuanced gameplay for individal champions and lessen the importance of picks and counterpicks, a necessity under a "unlock champion" system.

    Valves recent sucesses with the free-to-play pricingstructures makes it likely that there will be a related model for Dota2, the hats are in fact already in. But imho a "unlock hero" model would diminish the playability to a great degree, at least in the current state (faithful port from WC3) - it´s far more reliant on the full pool. The "traditional" pay-to-play model makes the most sense for the game in it´s current state but thats what Hon did and we know how that went...
  38. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    Well HoN's veteran model is more or less a pretty fair system. At least it's a good compromise between LoL and having full access to everything. Basically when a new hero comes out you have 2 options...
    1. Pay for early access + get a unique skin for that hero.
    2. Wait a month then have access to that hero for free.

    Since heroes are banned from competitive play early on anyways this creates a pretty nice system. The game remains competitively viable (with some pain for people playing outside of tournament rules), there's something to fund continued development, and there's a nice way to introduce a new hero to the game without having a splash. Even if a new hero is broken-strong only a subset of the game has access to it (and again only outside of a tournament setting) so it won't completely ruin the game.

    You could even have 2 options for queuing a 5-man pre-made 'team' queue that has tournament heroes only and a 1-5 man pug queue that allows for all heroes. That way tournament teams (or anyone who was interested and had friends) could practice in a tournament setting without the Early Access heroes.

    It's still not perfect for players and it does create a conflict of interest (new heroes are encouraged to be strong or flashy), but it does work nicely.

    Personally I'd maybe rather see early access ONLY and avoid the whole hat/skin/taunt thing to keep the game from being overly complex. There's a lot to be said for DotA2 (or DotA1) right now where the visuals remain consistent and without clutter.

    Either way a 3 prong approach of tournament licensing, early access, and cosmetics can likely fund and support a game like DotA 2 without being too disruptive or unfair to players.
  39. Polari

    Polari Well-Known Member

    Well yeah, DotA and LoL have very different goals. I believe most would agree that LoL is far easier to get into and a better experience for a casual, while DotA and HoN are better suited for high-level play.
  40. BeastofBurden

    BeastofBurden Well-Known Member

    Is it a good idea to turn off auto attack in the options menu?
  41. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    You can, but I personally wouldn't or wouldn't recommend it.

    The trade-off is between not wasting an auto-attack on a creep when trying to time a last hit vs risking that in a teamfight you cast a bunch of spells, but forget to give an attack command (or your target dies and you forget to issue a new attack command). I suppose there's also some consideration to not turning around to launch an auto-attack when you want to be facing a certain direction.
  42. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    I will definitely try it out as soon as I get into dota2. Especially twin headed dragon must be much easier to use without woring about turning (love the hero, but hate to miss the stun due to the turn animation). Also when you spam commands as much as I do you can easily just a+ground when you don't know what to do but don't want to idle. Though I guess I'd want auto attacks for junglers ...
  43. BeastofBurden

    BeastofBurden Well-Known Member

    I'm currently using the stop command to time my last hits. I guess it can't hurt to try it out but I never took turning into consideration so thanks for that info.

    I'm currently using Nature Prophet and plan to learn how to use the Queen of Pain. Ganking and mobility fits my style atm, and Ilike how NP's can be a good pusher as well. I think I'm starting to love this game now lol. Now I'm kicking myself for not playing Dota back in the warcraft days.
  44. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    Don't turn off autoattack. It makes your illusions that are standing around really obvious, and people will have 0% chance of wasting spells where before there would be some chance of them blowing a stun (plus they will take no damage). Also if you forget about a summoned unit in a push, having it randomly bash something is better than having it sit around being useless.
  45. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    If you play with illusions/summons you have to a+ground whenever you summon them, but you're right I wouldn't turn it of on manta/necrobook or summon heroes. On THD it seems to be good and on QoP it should work as well.

    Both really cool heroes imo. Teleport ganking prophet is just sick, only thing you have to keep in mind is, that you're taking lots of farm from your team with your ulti and pushing (never met a prophet who cared about it, but sometimes it annoys me when the prophet sucks but takes all farm).
    QoP is a cool ganker as well, some early farm and levels and you can go killing stuff.
  46. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    So then two updates-
    1. 6.73 released for dota 1. Major update which again pushes more ganking oriented gameplay. 4 new heroes, 5 new items, a crap ton of balance changes, and a VERY significant change to the courier system which I hope is a sign of things to come.

    On the 4 heroes- New heroes have basically always been released overpowered(purposely so), but holy hell these might just be too much. The idea has always been to make them strong so you get as many people playing them as possible to quickly find bugs and obvious poor interactions and then slowly nerf them down. Some of these guys though are going to wreck pubs and organized games alike. That said once they get kicked in the teeth a little there's some neat ideas.
    1.Str casting Ganker based around tree manipulation and pure damage.
    2.A pretty blatant int ganker who can aoe as well.
    3.Agi caster who again seems made for ganks and small team fights.
    4.A very interesting Str tank support hero. Two amazing support skills, a great tanking skill, and a crazy good disable and pretty awesome synergy between them.


    Items- Damn near every item ever release is usually considered trash, then finds a purpose, then maybe becomes broken. We've got some more early to mid game stuff(which is great) and one super luxury item which....yeah...
    1. Rod of atos- Basically for the squishy int carries. Silencer and Obsidian come to mind. Gives health and mana and a single target 50% slow(ms).
    2.Heavens Halbred- Sange upgarde. Gives good str, good dmg, evasion, and both the maim effect, and a several second disarm which disable's a hero's normal attack.
    3.Ring of Aquilla- A simple space saver. Helps agi heroes.
    4.Abyssal blade- Second most expensive item in the game under dagon 5. Takes a basher and sacred relic. +100 dmg, +10 str, bash, and overwhelm. A 2 second disable which goes through any form of magic immunity.
    5.Tranquil boots- Cheapest boot upgrade in the game. Gives decent speed and a self heal, but can be broken back into normal boots in which case you lose all benefits until you're out of combat for 10 seconds. Seems like the sort of thing built for ward bitch supports.

    2.Brother scored dota 2 through some trading so i'll be giving it a whirl soon and posting my own impressions.
  47. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    I find 6.73 patch to be the "Lets rip off all of HoN's good ideas" patch (in a good way). Just in terms of the crow changes and the tranquil boots which really were two of the best additions to HoN imo. The combination of Soul Ring + Tranquil boots will seriously change the game especially.

    (EDIT: Well actually I for some reason thought the courier changes were slightly different, so it's not like HoN, but still is a nice change).
  48. Ilk1986

    Ilk1986 Active Member

    The fire panda is crazy awesome. Legion is meh, the dragonhawk is a massive pain in the ass when I play antimage or QoP, and the shredder is just irritating.
  49. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    They're all massively broken as of right now, and cleaning up a pub even against decent competition with them is basically cake. I'm mildly surprised those are the two hero's you're losing to dragonhawk with. Blink helps mitigate his "lol you're solo so you die" ult combo.
  50. Ilk1986

    Ilk1986 Active Member

    No, I don't die to him. I just find him annoying.

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