dying poison/bleed before its time.

Discussion in 'Kongai virtual card game' started by jacenokelly, Jun 2, 2008.

  1. jacenokelly

    jacenokelly New Member

    So, my opponent hits me with a poison attack, gets me down to three life, and the poison kills me immediately. BOOOO! This is not right, not right at all.
  2. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    I asked Sirlin about this in chat, it's a known bug
  3. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Or maybe not. It would be more consistent if that proc'd at the end of the turn because on later turns, it deals damage at the end of the turn. But on second thought, some proc's must proc right when the hit happens: interrupt, stun, reflect, and so on. Right now we only have one timing for all of it and clearly those cannot proc at end of turn. Maybe it's not so bad how it is. Maybe all those poisons and bleeds are doing too much damage anyway though. Or maybe they should all be delayed a turn before they apply their first damage, that way they always apply damage at end of turn.
  4. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    Hrm. I'm actually not bothered by this for power level reasons, just for rules reasons. I can see the argument that other procs must hit before the attack, but to most people dots don't feel like the same thing because they last multiple turns and behave differently on future turns (because that's the only way it can work). Eating that extra 3 damage from Chi Blast's burn before my attack isn't that much of a change in power level. It just feels wrong.

    If making the dots start ticking at the start of the next turn is the way to fix that, so be it, but I don't really see why that has to be the case. Obviously I haven't seen the code and could be missing something, but right now, whenever the turn ends, the game clearly checks for dots because that's when the ones from previous turns resolve. So why can't my Chi Blast or whatever just place the dot, but not resolve it, and let the game resolve it through its normal end-of-turn checks?
  5. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Uh, if you want a programmer to do something, yes it could work like that. If you want me to do something, no I can't do that. But maybe it isn't worth bothering with anyway? There is "dot" classification of powers. There are only powers that last multiple turns. That includes dots and also other things like leafy trap. So someone would have to go mark all the dots as being dots, then code would have to be written that makes the dots trigger at end of turn on first turn. It seems pretty unimportant compared to implementing the new set of cards though, shrug. I mean yeah, if someone has time to implement it, I guess dot's procing at end of turn would be good.
  6. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    Well, of course I haven't seen the code but I did some testing earlier to try and guess at how the game processes this stuff now. My thinking as of that last post was:

    -The game can handle debuffs that deal damage, without needing them to deal damage every turn or when they are first applied. See: Touch of Doom and Spirit Assistance. Furthermore the code has to deal damage when the debuff counts down to a certain point and not when the debuff is removed, otherwise Juju dispelling one of these debuffs would result in him taking the damage early instead of not at all.

    -Currently, if a character has a dot debuff from a previous turn, the game counts it down and deals the damage.

    -Currently dots already trigger at the end of the turn, and not say after the opponent's attack (I tested this specifically to make sure I wasn't remembering it wrong). So there aren't problems like having the debuff appear after the opponent's attack and therefore after the end of turn check.

    So, basically right now, I know this is possible:

    Turn 1: Touch
    Next few turns: Debuff counts down, does nothing
    Final turn: Debuff gets to 0 turns and deals 99 damage

    and this:

    Turn 1: Poison Dart procs
    Turn 2: Debuff counts down, deals damage

    So I guess the question is, why can't damage not be part of the proc process (like with ToD), but then at the end of turn the game applies whatever code causes Poison Dart to deal damage like it does in turn 2 in the dart example, so you have:

    Turn 1: Poison Dart procs. At end of turn, debuff counts down, deals damage
    Turn 2: End of turn Debuff counts down, deals damage

    Yes this would require a programmer, and I fully realize that maybe there's some reason this is a lot harder than I think it is, but it seems like the pieces are already there if a programmer has the time and inclination to do it.
  7. Nicol Bolas

    Nicol Bolas New Member


    I presume there is a similar bug with stun - If you are slower, it takes away two attacks. It should only take away the next attack (current for slow attackers, and next round for fast attackers), so only one attack is stopped.
  8. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    I don't know what you're trying to convince me of. As I already said, I could make these things all wait a turn before applying by specifically setting it one-by-one on every dot. I cannot make it trigger the same turn because my knobs don't do that and I don't have access to the code. So I think everything I said in my last post still stands. Yes a programmer could do it, if we care enough.
  9. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    Sounds like a non-issue to me. For all the times a dot kills someone on the turn it's applied, it's also just as likely to deal the bit of extra damage needed to proc a low-health damage bonus, for example, and cause the attacker to suffer. As long as it's consistent behavior, there shouldn't be any problem.
  10. jacenokelly

    jacenokelly New Member

    Uh, Claytus, there are two people with damage + bonuses on low health, and 20 characters who can die before getting a attack off due to poison/burn. And most P/B attacks are a pretty fast 7

    Didn't they resolve at end of turn at one point? or am I hallucinating? I don't think its right that a lucky proc means p/b gives them a free attack. That's what stun and para is for.
  11. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    I thought there were items with low health based effects as well... but I could be wrong... I don't play.
  12. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member


    I kinda forgot to post my last response to this thread, so here's where I'm coming from on this:

    -Since the feedback is kinda split between the kongregate forums and here, this is an issue where it isn't obvious who I should be talking to. If it's about the card releases, I go post on the kong forums (and I have), if it's me begging you not to add a diceroll to Shield Bash, I know to come here. The idea that it's "maybe a bug but I'm not sure whether it needs to be fixed" kinda puts it at this weird halfway point. I was pointing out that it didn't seem like something that would require a lot of work to fix, if you even want to, though maybe I'm completely wrong on that.

    -I'm mostly a card game player, so I'm accustomed to "Here is a list of rules that describe how the game works. If anything happens in a game that does not logically extend from these rules, it's a bug." I realize that this isn't how computer/video gamers are as likely to think and that this is a computer game, so maybe my attitude towards rules is a little out of place.

    -Along those veins, I'm not complaining because of balance issues (another reason why I understand that it won't bother some people nearly as much as me). I'm the kind of person that finds articles like this and this interesting. To me, this whole discussion is in the same category as when Enchanted Sword Slash triggered Leafy Trap; it didn't bother me because I thought it seriously hurt Helene, it bothered me because from a rules perspective the idea that the attack could be a "light magic attack" except for that one interaction felt kinda dirty.
  13. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    ChadMiller, you have convinced me that bleed, poison, and burn effects should proc at the end of the turn the are applied, not the moment the main attack hits. Remember though that all sorts of other procs do need to happen immediately (stun, interrupt, ninja-port, and many others).

    So you can quote me in bug reports or whatever saying that's how I think it should be ideally, but I don't think I can personally fix this without the programmers. Also, they really have to make sure they don't mess up all those other procs that need to happen right away. And finally, this still doesn't matter a whole lot either way, but it would be cleaner this way.

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