Flash Duel Tier List

Discussion in 'Flash Duel' started by jelyman, Feb 16, 2012.

  1. jelyman

    jelyman Active Member

    Ok, so here is my tier list....

    A ~ Grave, Quince, BBB, Zane
    -A ~ Rook, Oni, Sets, Jaina
    +B ~ Menelker, Midori, Troq, Degrey
    B ~ Vendetta, Gloria, Gwen, Arg
    -B ~ Val, Lum, Geiger
  2. NidoKing

    NidoKing Active Member

    ++S ~ Deathstrike Dragon
  3. Bodknocks

    Bodknocks Active Member

    Hmm, I think people overemphasize Gwen's plagueyness (I'm coining that). Drawing to 6 every turn is insane card advantage, so as long as you play aggressive and try to end the game before time is up, you should do fine. She is super hard-countered by Lum of course, but there are lots of hard counters in the game so meh.
  4. NidoKing

    NidoKing Active Member

    I found Gwen hard to win with initially. I've since picked up some tricks with her. One of them is to NOT overuse her abilities. As good as they look, use them only when it really, really counts because her abilities just make the deck run out even more quickly than usual
  5. Grave

    Grave New Member

    Interesting list.

    I would personally put Menelker at Grave's level and would put Quince higher than both. I have no say when it comes to BBB or Zane as i have not played them nor have i played against them enough.

    This thread is interesting and i will be watching it so as to hear other peoples thoughts.
  6. jelyman

    jelyman Active Member

    Quince is easily strong and I think one of the most difficult to play against. But I find he he is pretty susceptible to characters who can rush. BBB and Zane are so good at getting the first strike off that can set the tone. ONI does really well too because he doesn't need a pair to strike with and he has a real nice defensive ability.

    Grave I find so good because just like Yomi he can do everything pretty good. He can rush play defense......

    It seems a lot of people think Menelker is higher than I listed. Getting rid of an ability is awesome and potentially devastating, but for me the thing is he doesn't have anything else to give him positional advantage. To fully utilize Bonecracker you already need to have this advantage. You can try to use it as a defensive ability but that's guess work. Probably the best alt use is to pick a number they likely don't have so you can see their hand and have a good idea what left in the deck.
  7. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    I think Gwen is top tier. Her main problems are that she's very difficult to play and that she's the most unforgiving character, both because she loses harder than everyone else when stuff goes wrong, and because even tiny things can be mistakes and they're hard to detect.

    IMO Val and Gloria are not in the same tier. Val is with Geiger and Lum and Gloria is solidly mid tier.

    Perse seems undervalued, and Grave overvalued, I'd put them both at A- if you insist on keeping those divisions.

    I'm not sure Arg makes it out of C tier, but maybe.
  8. Menelker

    Menelker Member

    while i don't believe menelker to be the best in the game, i find the ability to destroy an ability forces the opponent to play his character differently than they normally would. Also, with regards to bone cracker, if menelker gets into a proper range he can use bone cracker to gain the initiative (so, while he might only have one card to dashing strike with, using bone cracker to cause the opponent to discard helps give him a safer alpha strike at extreme range being 10 or 9 spcaes apart). If he can push an opponent back to their home square or the square before it, they become vulnerable to a death strike.

    I don't know why Val is put so low on the tier list. If she moves into the 7 apart range she is dangerous for the opponent to dashing strike as probabilty will generally favour her to block the strike giving her the initiative or making the opponent only want to strike when the have 2's and 5's (head games). I find her to be a pretty strong character.

    In fact, here is my list (this may subject to change as time goes on):

    A: Quince, Sets, Zane
    A-: Grave, Menelker, Rook, Oni, BBB
    B+: Midori, Vendetta, Perseph, Arg, Val
    B: Jaina, Degrey, Geiger, Lum, Troq
    B-: Gwen, Gloria
  9. jelyman

    jelyman Active Member

    Ha, I insist on nothing.....but seriously.

    Gwen def should be higher, but not top tier IMO. It takes literally any one thing for you to lose badly.

    On Val, Arg, perse....yeah probably right there too.

    I'm still not high on Gloria at all. Maybe eliminate the C+ tier move Gloria up one and leave Val with lum and Geiger.
  10. Swiffle

    Swiffle Active Member

    vs the original list
    I like Arg more. esp in team games when geiger isn't counterpicked, but also for 1v1
    Tried to like Gloria, but just doesn't seem to be as useful.
    Prob give Gwen higher than B too, 6 cards so good, and the dashing strike abilities pretty powerful
    Lum feels kinda bad in 1v1, but better in dragon raid and 2v2
    I like BBB but don't think he's at the top
  11. jelyman

    jelyman Active Member

    I should clarify that my list os only considering 1v1. Otherwise I think things would look a bit different.

    hmm, I will have to play Gwen some more but it seems tom that if you can icrease the draw rate or disrupt her at all its game over too often. Odly enought Gwen is one mu where i love to use Gloria.
  12. Maris

    Maris Member

    I think Guests "second impression tier list" while it lacks updates is worth repeating the part where he talks about what makes a character top tier in his opinion is fairly useful. (also fairly close to my opinion, though i put a bit more weight on the ability to counterattack after getting dashing striked.)
    The following changes have been made to characters from the version that guest talks about

    Midori can block pairs with rising mountain and a single only if he has dragon form out
    Degray can only pull opponents on light spaces and push opponents on dark spaces
    Setsuki cannot dashing strike after ninpo flash nor can setsuki dashing strike after using speed of the fox
    Lum gets to draw a card if the opponent refuses to surrender from raise the stakes
    Show Spoiler

    jelyman likes this.
  13. jelyman

    jelyman Active Member

    I may be mistakin, but wasn't this post made before.....?

    - Grave's Martial Mastery got buffed.
    - Midori got nerfed.
    - Degrey got nerfed.
    - Lum Raise the Stakes got buffed.

    either way as stated has some good stuff in their.
  14. Maris

    Maris Member

    Yea this is guest's tier list from a year ago, I don't know how to change it so that everyone knows that the post is guests and not mine, but those changes do change the game slightly

    Ill post those changes here

    Midori can block pairs with rising mountain and a single only if he has dragon form out
    Degray can only pull opponents on light spaces and push opponents on dark spaces
    Setsuki cannot dashing strike after ninpo flash nor can setsuki dashing strike after using speed of the fox
    Lum gets to draw a card if the opponent refuses to surrender from raise the stakes
    What was graves buff?
  15. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Jelyman also Argagarg was buffed too.
    NoahTheDuke likes this.
  16. UlyZed

    UlyZed Active Member

    Is there a general article on Flash Duel?

    I feel like people need to understand how good players 'gamble' with Dashing Strike before we can assess character strength properly.
  17. Swiffle

    Swiffle Active Member

    As far as dashing strikes go, I just glance at discard + own hand to determine probabilities of opponents hand range, then always note range of characters on board.
    range 10 = 5,5
    range 9 = 4,5; 5,4
    range 8 = 5,3 3,5 4,4
    range 7 = 2,5 3,4 4,3 5,2
    range 6 = 1,5 2,4 3,3 4,2 5,1

    strikes with singletons like a 5>5 or 3>3 tend to suck, since they are much more likely to get you blocked and then owned. it's usually unlikely to have trips in hand, and people tend to move with them so they can get more dashing strike options, and having a doubleton is probably preferable.

    so range 10 is pretty safe, range 9 is too, especially if you have card removal effects from 5s or 4s. 8 is also deceptively safe, since a 4>4 strike sucks. 7 or closer opens up a ton of options which you won't be to cover most of the time(although things like black diamond hide, rock armor, a bud to dashing block, etc can help)
  18. UlyZed

    UlyZed Active Member

    I think a lot of new players don't understand how Dashing Strike is so powerful, and when good players will gamble.

    Thanks for the info Swiffle.

    In addition, my default is to dash and strike with doubles. To that end I think hand diversity is undesirable.
  19. Maris

    Maris Member

    Range 8 and nine are deceptively dangerous, people stockpile 5s and 4s, however if you are the one who is holding 2 5s then going to range 9 or 8 is fine. because the attack likely won't force one to retreat.
  20. Coffee

    Coffee Active Member

    Gwen is definitely insane, IMHO. Six cards in hand is really, really good. Midori nerf makes him surprisingly fragile because Rising Mountain is a blank unless you're a Dragon, and Dragon Form turns off really easily. Still an okay character if you're aggressive, but definitely nowhere near the monster he was in 1st edition.

    Menelker perhaps a bit higher, not necessarily because of Into Oblivion but because of Deathstrike. It gives him really good efficiency when any random card can kill alone.

    Quince and Oni should be pretty damn good if you ask me. Vendetta I'm unsure of but he should be quite evil if you're good with Surgical Strike.
  21. UlyZed

    UlyZed Active Member

    People stockpile 4s and 5s? I thought these were the general maxims:

    *in general, moving further forward earlier is better (using high value cards).
    *doubles and triples are powerful; hand diversity is not.
    *dashing strike with a double as the strike is a high % play and nearly always retains the initiative.

    Am I way off the mark?
  22. Coffee

    Coffee Active Member

    Those seem like good rules of thumb to me.

    btw, 1-wound 4-ability Dragon was a-ok vs. Clockwork Soldier with normal abilities. Was fun, too. Dunno if 1-wound 3-ability Dragon is okay against normal characters.
  23. Swiffle

    Swiffle Active Member

    Yeah I'd agree with that, having 1 doubleton is nice, 2 doubletons kinda kills the hand and limits options.

    It seems like moving 4 or 5 when you go first on turn 1 is good because it puts you on space 5 or 6, and if your opponent tries to move fast it puts him in your range on 13-14. Moving short gives you less map control, and less retreat/recover room if things don't go your way.
  24. jelyman

    jelyman Active Member

    im not sure i agree with moving forward with 4/5 early is good. can be but not as a general rule.
  25. UlyZed

    UlyZed Active Member

    If you have multiples, I'd keep them. But from a valuation perspective I'd be moving forward with my highest singleton.

    Character abilities and your opponent figuring this out would change my play, but otherwise are there other reasons why this is a bad idea?
  26. Vysetron

    Vysetron New Member

    I really like Zane, but I'm not sure as to why he'd be top tier. He lacks defense abilities (because he's Zane) as well as any direct attack abilities. I like landmine and shoulder ram, but getting people to actually land on the mine is a crapshoot and the ram is random. What am I missing?
  27. jelyman

    jelyman Active Member

    Ram is amazing. If you are just outside of dashing strike range you can use it to get in close then dashing strike and if thing go good you go for the attack. Landmine is good simply because it forces the opponent to play around something which can affec their offense as weel. Oh and if you hand sucks get a new one.

    All that being said he maybe should be dropped one slot lower....I am gona try and play so FD soon and hopefully get some more thoughts.
  28. Vysetron

    Vysetron New Member

    I've been using landmine as area denial and ram more as an extra move than anything else. I guess my issue is one of mediocre luck; I tend to get either 1's or 5's when I ram, so it's either amazing or awful. He's just too random to be with the best of the best. Moving him one tier lower seems about right.
  29. Menelker

    Menelker Member

    I have to disagree with this. Menelker is a zoning character with touch of rush down. Into Oblivion is his tool to disrupt the enemey, Bonecracker helps him get a dashing strike off and be relatively safe from a block while deathstrike (in my opinion his least useful tool) is there to disuad an opponent from moving too close on a dark slot or one shotting an opponent you dash striked and forced into their starting area.

    In terms of movement, i find the cards used to move will depend on the character you use. With a character like Grave, you want to use the smaller cards to dance around and end your move about 10 or 11 away from an enemy (while trying to build a hand with 5's and 4's to dash stike/block with) that way the enemy will either dash strike 10 (which is madness unless you have really good luck (and by that i mean 3 or 4 5's in hand) , move forward into a reasonable striking range or back up and give ground for you to move forward again and put them at the same range.

    Please note the above is just an example of movement and not a rule of thumb as movement will come down to the character you use and the one the opponent is using (also, i'm no Grave expert ... Menelker on the other hand i can write a whole tactics thread on and all his match ups).
  30. jelyman

    jelyman Active Member

    For Menelker's Deathstrike......it's obviously better in 2v2 or Raid modes. In 1v1 I find it most useful (at least this is it's most obvious benefit) when the opponent must retreat. Often when you retreat you have certain cards you don't want to let go but with Menelker he disrupts their movement that can make things really difficult for someone on the retreat.
  31. UlyZed

    UlyZed Active Member

    I'd like to see less jargon and more general strategy.

    I'm not sure of a lot of what is being said. For the most, I think there are general strategies, a lot depending on who is dashing, when you can't help it, and what is worth risking, and then I think characters abilities count.

    I definitely agree with Jelyman that Menelker is middling at best. Into Oblivion and Deathstrike don't improve your game much beyond the basics.
  32. Menelker

    Menelker Member

    The majority of the characters' abilities don't improve your game beyond the basics. Even Quince's abilities (who is listed as top teir) don't do much to enhance his game beyond the basics. I'm not saying Menelker is Top teir but i would argue that he is on a roughly equal level to Grave and if the general consensus is that Grave is an A-teir character then Menelker should be as well.

    Lets do a quick comparison.

    Grave has nothing to help him get a good early rush (unless you are playing against a bad opponent who uses 4's and 5's to move in the early game to allow the use of martial mastery to gain the initiative) so he is forced to do a dance and get into 10 or 11 spaces away. Menelker is similar in this sense except for the fact that he can probably make an early dash strike better than grave can do to bone cracker.

    Next grave has knowing the opponent. This is a great ability where by you can keep up the pressure once you get a dash strike in on the opponent by knowing their cards. Menelker can use bone cracker for this same purpose if he knows that the opponent can't possibly have a certain number, though i definitely think grave does this beeter with knowing the opponent. When it comes to keeping up the pressue on, i think Grave beats out menelker here (also, if he does dashing strike, he could use martail mastery to ensure he has the right cards to continue attacking the opponent).

    I would say that Menelker is more threatening than Grave when he can corner the opponent do to Deathstrike and into oblivion can seriously change the way you play your character. Grave is a bit better on the defense because he can martial mastery against attacks and reversal to control movement and disuad the use of abilities but overall i would say they are both characters that play on the fundamentals of the game with grave being a bit better on the defense and Menelker being a bit better on the offense (i know that martial mastery has several other uses, as does bone cracker but i'm not going to go into all those in here). I also think that Grave and Menelker wouold have similar good and bad match ups hence putting them on a very similar Teir.
  33. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Defensive abilities are stronger than offensive ones, because the game rules already give everyone some really strong offense. Another thing to consider is that Menelker can't use Bone Cracker both to get and and to keep up pressure.
  34. Vysetron

    Vysetron New Member

    I think my tier list is a bit different, but it seems decent...

    A: Quince, Onimaru, BBB, Persephone, Setsuki
    A-: Midori, Grave, Rook, DeGrey, Menelker, Vendetta
    B+: Jaina, Valerie
    B: Geiger, Zane, Gloria, Gwen
    B-: Lum, Troq, Argagarg
  35. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    How are Jaina and Val in the same bracket? o_O
  36. jelyman

    jelyman Active Member

    I am going to be making some more detailed post pointing to the reasons why I put char in their respective spots. I also will like shift one or two more char in my op.
    UlyZed likes this.
  37. Coffee

    Coffee Active Member

    Still not buying the low Gwen placements at all. 6 cards is godly.
    Atma likes this.
  38. UlyZed

    UlyZed Active Member


    Thanks World Champion Jelyman :) Reasons would be appreciated.
  39. Bodknocks

    Bodknocks Active Member

    I've been playing a lot of Flash Duel lately and have a much better understanding of where a lot of the characters stand. So I'm going to bump this thread with my tier list:

    S: Quince
    A: Persephone, Onimaru, Menelker, Setsuki, Midori, Vendetta, BBB
    B: Grave, Rook, Jaina, Troq, Gloria, Gwen, Valerie
    C: Degrey, Zane, Lum, Geiger, Arg

    I feel like Quince is just a little too good, and nobody else really feels that way so he gets to be by himself at the top. Everyone else feels really close in skill, I don't think there are any characters that aren't tournament viable. I might go into more detail for each individual character later if this post sparks a new discussion.
  40. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    I really don't get all this Quince fear. I expect to beat him up all day with Setsuki and Zane when FD finally goes on the server.
  41. Inkstud

    Inkstud Well-Known Member

    I think Setsuki and Quince are both really insane (also, BBB) but I haven't gotten that much mileage out of Zane. Shoulder Ram seems really good but I dunno so much about his other two, whereas BBB, Sets and Quince all have 3 abilities that are really great on their own.
  42. Bodknocks

    Bodknocks Active Member

    I can't wait either -- I don't think we'll ever know what the real tier list looks like until it goes live. Anyway, since you don't get the "Quince fear" I will try to explain.

    Ok, maybe I shouldn't have ranked him S Tier, maybe I should have said A+ or something instead, because I don't think he's unbeatable or anything like that. I just wrote it as S Tier because I really do think he's above and beyond every other character in the game. That seems to be the majority opinion here -- of the four tier lists posted in this thread thus far, one ranks him as #2 and the other three rank him as #1 overall. I guess I'll take each ability at a time and explain why he is so strong.

    Political Prowess: This is probably his "weakest" skill, but it's already on par with a lot of character's best ability. It has some niche uses against certain matchups, but it's main purpose is to just dump cards you don't currently need so you can retrieve them at the start of any turn for the rest of the match. The cards set aside are basically a permanent extension of your hand that you can't use to block or retreat with. It's inherently good because you can use it without fail every single round, and its strength persists across multiple rounds (and grows exponentially, if you keep winning without needing to pick up the cards).

    Two Truths: Unlike it's cousin Martial Mastery, Two Truths can't be used defensively. However, it is much stronger as a finisher, giving you a full pair for your pair. In this way it's reminiscent of other soft finishers like Bonecracker and Rocket Punch. Late game you should definitely be holding at least one pair at all times, and fetching for the exact pair you need to end the round is super strong.

    Flagstone Tax: This is in my opinion the single best card in the entire game. There are only 3-4 other abilities that even come close to Flagstone Tax's level of power. The ability is practically a false choice -- both options are absolutely terrible 100% of the time from the opponent's perspective. If you give Quince the pair, he will end up with 7+ cards in hand and you're left with just 3 (unless you're Gloria or something) so that gives Quince a 7+ to 3 card advantage for a single turn. Stealing a pair is the most insane ability in the game by far... which is why you will usually choose to recover instead. But recovering in this fashion is basically no different than losing a turn, because unless Quince dashing strikes you or attacks you after Tax, then you'll have 5 cards in hand and so you'll not even get to draw up. So usually what happens is, Quince taxes you, and you either give him insane card advantage, or you lose your turn. Assuming you will choose to recover, he then moves into an attack range. You "recover" and it immediately goes back to Quince, who uses Two Truths or grabs Prowess cards to attack you with a double/triple attack that ends the round.

    Quince is still beatable though. You mention Setsuki and Zane, which are indeed probably two of his more difficult matchups. Quince lacks defense and can't play any of his abilities out of turn, so he is susceptible to an early dashing strike, and if you can force him to recover repeatedly, he won't be able to ever set up for a game winning Tax combo. That's basically all you can do against him though -- if you aren't able to successfully dashing strike him by turn 3 or 4, he will usually win. The only other way to win against him is to survive his Tax onslaught turns with a fortunate pair block or something. After he's spent his Tax, he's much easier to handle. Also sometimes he sets up for the Tax combo but just has bad cards in hand, and can't properly set up for the round winning turn.

    Zane's Shoulder Ram is a good card, I think most of the time you will get some mileage out of it. I think Landmine is actually much better than people give it credit -- much like Flame Arrow, even if no one ever runs into it, if properly placed it's still doing something. As a side note Landmine can be super fun in draft mode (Beckon + Push/Pull abilities = hilarity ensues).

    Zane's weakest point is probably Maximum Anarchy, and it's why in my list he drops to the C group. It's obviously much too random to be dependable. Early game it can potentially give you a stronger hand and disrupt your opponent, but there will still be time for them to recover. Late game the discard pile is so huge it just becomes a total wildcard, and you're just as likely to help your opponent as you are yourself. It still has some strong proper plays, but with a "Start of your turn from a dark space" activation, you won't even get to use it half of those times. Overall, Zane just feels a tad bit on the weak side.
  43. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Wow, what? I almost never skip to Flagstone Tax. Card advantage doesn't matter all that much in a game with redraw, and giving him a pair of 2s or whatever means he needs to dump those to get to other cards. Maybe you'd be less scared of Quince if you just gave him pairs instead of letting him take extra turns against you. I agree his other abilities are solid, but there's a serious limit on how powerful a character can be with no defensive abilities. My friend who I usually play against, Sage, thinks he's not even as good as Jaina.

    I cannot fathom your Zane analysis. I think if he were "Shoulder Ram Man" with shoulder ram and 2 blank abilities, he'd be top tier. Shoulder Ram is so good. I use Max Anarchy as an endgame card. Sometimes you can get into situations where your hand sucks and you don't really have any outs. In those situations it's a great trick, and even if you get a crappy hand you weren't really getting there anyways, so you don't lose much. I couldn't disagree more with "just as likely to help the opponent."
    jelyman and Scarbo like this.
  44. Scarbo

    Scarbo Well-Known Member

    I agree that Flagstone Tax isn't nearly as good as some guys make it out to be. You actually want to give him the pair. If he keeps it, you know 2/5 of his hand which is great for you. Either way, you're at disadvantage for the next turn. Not really a big deal. Other abilities are much better imo.
  45. Bodknocks

    Bodknocks Active Member

    Ok, so lets say that giving them the pair is the correct response. How is stealing a pair from your opponent not absolutely ridiculous? Quince has 8+ cards to choose from and you know two of them. And the two you know about are probably going to get played the same turn he takes them, because 90% of the time you hand Quince a pair he uses them as part of a dashing strike. So have fun recovering from a retreat from a pair that you gave him so you wouldn't have to recover. (???)

    What sort of bad Quince would keep the pair and not immediately use them as part of a dashing strike? Even if for some crazy reason he does that, he can still Two Truths that pair into like any other pair in the discard pile. I still don't see how it's no big deal to hand over your pair.

    Well yeah that's like his biggest weakness. He has no defense. It's the only reason he isn't a God Tier character -- you dashing strike chain him, you win. Pressure him super hard, you win. He's a far cry from unbeatable.

    You "cannot fathom my Zane analysis"? Ok well it wasn't exactly a deep analysis. All I said Shoulder Ram was good and usually works out for you. You're claiming that it's so good that he would be top tier with two blank abilities! Ha, and here I thought I was the one overvaluing abilities or whatever.

    Shoulder Ram is really good but really random. You can't predict with enough accuracy what card is going to be revealed, so the end result is that it might put you at a sweet spot distance from your opponent, or it might not. It's always free movement and sometimes a free push as well so overall a really strong ability. Plus you get to keep the card, even if your opponent knows you have it. I don't think "Shoulder Ram Man" would be top tier though, because occasionally "Shoulder Ram Man" reveals a bad card and his action for that turn ends up being "move backwards so I don't get smacked in the face next turn".

    I don't really understand the rest of your post. You go on to explain when and how Max Anarchy should be used to it's fullest potential. Okay, yeah? I 100% agree, that's how you use it properly. It's still just as likely to help the opponent though. Sometimes you will play it and get an even crapier hand back. Sometimes you will play it and get the exact same hand back. Sometimes you play it and your opponent gets the exact cards they needed to win. It's random, it happens sometimes. The best you can do is play it at times to minimize this effect, which is what you described. The fact remains that it does not always benefit you to play it, even at times where it appears as an optimal play.
  46. JinSaotome

    JinSaotome Member

    Just gonna chime in on the Quince analysis. I play a lot of Quince in FD (and can't wait to in Yomi :) ), and I always curse under my breath when people give me a pair. The only time giving a pair is NOT the better option is if hypothetically the only pair you have is the exact attack range Quince is standing at when he uses it (basically never) Quince is definitely top tier, one of the best, but as people mentioned, he has no good defensive options. However, his offense is utterly balls out insane as a tradeoff. I really haven't gotten too much time with the new characters in FD but my gut reaction is a list like this:

    A+: Quince, Onimaru, BBB, Setsuki, Zane, Rook
    A: Midori, Grave, Menelker, Vendetta, Persephone
    B: Jaina, Valerie, Gwen, DeGrey
    C: Gloria, Lum, Troq, Geiger, Argagarg


    Horizontal ordering doesn't matter. :)

    I have to agree that most people really underestimate Zane. Shoulder Ram is comparable to Quince's tax combo without the option select, but has Landmine for better area control (even defensively :confused:). As Lofo mentioned, Maximum Anarchy can shuffle your hand to potentially grab you a winning attack at best and just make you need to reposition at worst. If used late enough, you can pseudo reveal the opponents hand.

    Rook is really really strong too. Area Control hurts him (Val gives me a big headache) but Rock Armor+Thunderclap is awesome, and Windmill crusher makes Dashing Strike with 1s -- otherwise an incredibly powerful move, suicide.

    That said, most of the characters in this game are decent (while others still are super crazy -- I feel the gap between the respective tiers is much farther than in Yomi). I feel like the C tier characters are way behind though in 1v1. A lot of them have great utility for DSD and 2v2 modes that make them top picks, though, so theres that at least. :p
  47. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Well Quince doesn't always have the right cards/spacing to dashing strike with what you gave him, but let's discuss that in a moment. Even if he did, I'd still give him the pair, because retreating a little and giving up initiative is still way better than recovering before his main action. Remember we are assuming he can dashing strike with the cards. Then it's also true that he can use those same cards to move, then attack next turn, so it's the same but you can't retreat. But wait, it's worse, because that extra turn let's him use his other abilities to adjust his hand, so it's actually even stronger than just "can't retreat"! That alone should make you not want to recover.

    Ok, now let's get back to that cards thing. If you're giving him a pair of 1s,2s,3s, it can be tough or impossible for him to have the right hand to dashing strike you with them. He can't use two abilities in the same turn, so he can't adjust with Two Truths to use them immediately. This means he needs to be at a dangerous range to get the most out of Tax, which is the same range where rushdown can start, which is his weakness.

    Shoulder Ram is crazy strong because it gives you extra reach, one of the most powerful effects. It's hard to control (weakness compared to Esper Dash) but it sometimes puts you in a spot where you get to move then attack (avantage). Maybe someone else will explain why Max Anarchy helps you way more than the opponent when you use it. I don't feel up to it.
  48. Bodknocks

    Bodknocks Active Member

    I think I agree with your list for the most part, it's pretty similar to mine overall. I definitely underrated Zane quite a bit, as others have pointed out. I don't know if I'd rank Valerie over Gwen, Gloria, and Troq though.

    Maybe I shouldn't have been saying "helps your opponent as often as it helps you". That is probably incorrect. I should have said, "is very random and sometimes doesn't help you at all, or sometimes helps your opponent more than you." I've never claimed it's a terrible ability you should never use, I just don't think it's a very good one. Like I don't think Max Anarchy would ever be a high pick in draft mode.
  49. jelyman

    jelyman Active Member

    Wow...I left this thread hanging....my bad.

    I will try to post up some new thoughts soon.
  50. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    I think you may still be underestimating the benefit gained controlling when a symmetrical effect is activated.

    Also, being a mid-level pick is not a good indicator of power. Drafting in most card games I've seen tends to be about synergies more than individual card strength. Anything that's actually strong enough to stand alone is probably borderline OP. This is exacerbated by the bar getting set higher as you increase the size of the cardpool. When you're only using 10% of the possible options, anything "strong, but not spectacular" probably doesn't make the cut. I'm not making any claims about where MA stands relative to other abilities, just pointing out that pick order isn't a great metric here.
    Lofobal likes this.

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