Flash Duel Tier List

Discussion in 'Flash Duel' started by jelyman, Feb 16, 2012.

  1. Mad King

    Mad King Active Member

    Troq in C tier seems like crazy land. He's definitely one of the strongest rushdown characters IMO, if only for Giant Growth. He can choose to play for Cornered Prey (so dashing strike xN, where N is the amount required to kill you, using Giant Growth to sustain it) or use an initial dashing strike to force a retreat and set up Giant Growth into a lethal attack. He also gets a solid defensive ability that can set up Cornered Prey. If I'm playing Troq correctly, there's a fairly large chance you aren't allowed to do a whole lot.
  2. LameHandle

    LameHandle New Member

    Not to ask a stupid question, but what good is Unchained Beast? It can only used if you block an attack (not a dashing strike) and doesn't actually help you block. It can give you a better position after a block and possibly be used with giant growth if it moves your opponent to range 4 or 5. Giant Growth is really, amazingly strong, but I feel like I'm missing something here.
  3. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Unchained Beast is his most narrow ability, but it can work with either of his other abilities. It can also give you a better counterattack (block 3s, happen to have 5s in hand) and makes things a bit messier for people like Setsuki and her Ninpo Flash.
  4. Bob199

    Bob199 Well-Known Member

    After going 2-6 (W - oni/bbb L- val/men/zane/ven x2/perse) against said Troq, I agree.

    Mess up a dashing strike, giant growth into what you just used ftl.
    In the corner, get eaten by cornered prey.
    Troq goes in for rushdown, giant growth once again to triple tutor into victory.

    Once he gets momentum, it's very hard to stop him.
  5. Bodknocks

    Bodknocks Active Member

    By itself, it does look weak, so your reaction isn't unwarranted. "If you block an opponent's attack" is a truly difficult ability trigger. But think about it this way: Unchained Beast rarely gets used, but when it does, Troq almost always wins that round.

    It really compliments Troq's kit -- as Lofobal already mentioned it has excellent synergy with his other two skills. Unchained Beast into Cornered Prey means the opponent isn't safe attacking within five spaces of start, for fear of losing the round if it's blocked. Attacking Troq anywhere at distance 3 or less is also really risky, because if he blocks he can usually win next turn via Giant Growth cards.
  6. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    How does troq beat setsuki or zane. They seem very likely to get the first Dashing Strike.
  7. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    By blocking it. It's not like he doesn't have a five-cards hand like everyone else. We're not claiming god tier, we're claiming he's pretty good.
    Mad King, bbobjs and Lofobal like this.
  8. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    As an extension of this, keep in mind that blocking a strike is particularly OK for Troq since in many cases he can just use Giant Growth afterward and laugh in your face.
  9. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    Against Troq as setsuki I can almost always set up a DS with a pair. My opinion is that Troq very rarely survives if he has to retreat. Troq cannot reliably block a pair. Of course DS'ing troq with a single is prety suicidal lol.
  10. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

    I have some thoughts

    Zane is A tier no question. Shoulder ram is crazy, and I often get Dash Attacks out of it. Extremely rarely it puts in me in an awkward place, but a large majority of the time, I get to move dashing strike or move attack, it is great.

    I think arg is around B or B+, because of how powerful slippery fish is. Using it to get into Arg's perfect range makes people not want to dashing strike you at all, which can be great, depending on your cards and your spacing
    x00x likes this.
  11. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    Arg seems pretty good to me. His opponent needs to attack him so he is likely to get the first DS off. Slippery Fish is pretty strong as well.
  12. Scarbo

    Scarbo Well-Known Member

    I agree with B+ tier Arg. His turtling is strong enough that it beats pretty much any characters without strong counters to his abilities.

    His bad matchups are against characters with abilities that make moving in with Slippery Fish too risky. Jaina, DeGrey, and Geiger specifically are good at this. Troq is a big problem because of his crazy strong sustained rush, Giant Growth to get an easy attack if Arg tries to Slippery Fish in, and Cornered Prey limiting retreats. BBB is almost a hard counter to Arg with a a push ability, Rocket Punch giving him a wider attack range, and Reboot giving him a super powerful end game.
  13. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    I don't follow. I got DSed by a pair turn 2/3 via Esper Dash (meaning I had to move with more than a 1, you had to have a pair and need several 4-5s) and now have to retreat+recover. To me the game is far from over at this point. My back is not yet to the wall and you'll have to dashing strike to hit me post recover. I'm likely unable to block with the number I used to retreat but it's not a sure thing. If I'm forced to retreat again, it's likely I'll either be in your attack range or stuck with my back to the wall. If I manage to block one of the remaining 2 dashing strikes it's very likely Giant Growth will allow me to end you. If instead I left myself in attack range and you attack, I probably have the block and will block; since I have Giant Growth, you'd be dead if you don't Ninpo Flash but after you Ninpo Flash I can Unchained Beast so...

    Beyond that if I AM able to move with a 1 on turn 1/2, the whole match up changes because you won't be able to Esper Dash me until turn 4 or I'll have move an extra space forward before I have to put myself in Esper Dash range on turn 3.
  14. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    bbobjs - want to play the mu. It is possible I am wrong about all this.
  15. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    I don't have Stars =(, I can't play on server.
  16. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    My take on quince is that he loses to setsuki, goes even with zane and is advantaged (often heavily) against everyone else. This is just my view from my rather limited experiencing against people so maybe other chars do ok against quince. Since setsuki is also rather strong I feel like the theoretical metagame is super heavily centered on sets/quince/setsCP.

    edit: it is plausible he goes even with arg

    edit: to test my quince is broken theory I challenge anyone to a 10 game set. I will be quince you can be anyone except arg/setsuki/zane/quince.

    edit: Also my view is if you are imba skillfull at FD you should pick setsuki or zane not quince. You then have no terrible mus and can outplay other guy.
  17. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

    I'll play you
  18. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    In my last 27 games with quince against non quince/setsuki I went 26-1 going 1-1 with Scarbo's Gloria. Just Sayin. Many of the people I played multiple games against were strong; Thelo, Scarbo, Wheezy, MK come to mind (I think I only played Lofo once).

    I think Quince's winrate in bo5 against a random non-Quince/Sesuki/Zane is at least 80%.

    I am calling it now. If FD ever gets a decent player base quince will need to be banned or the metagame will be completely stagnant. I am not advocating banning him now since there is very little data. I am just time stamping my prediction.
  19. Bodknocks

    Bodknocks Active Member

    I claimed he was S tier before the game was playable online, and lots of people disagreed with me. Maybe those people can explain to you how you can go 26-1 against the field but he's not S tier.
  20. Plum

    Plum Well-Known Member

    Quince is also awesome in PS - I'm curious to see how his Yomi powerlevel shakes out
  21. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    Btw Scarbo and I played some Setsuki/Quince and it is possible the mu is fairly even. Idk he is maybe just completely broken. Bodknocks, Idk what their counter argument is.

    edit: I think even if quince is broken in FD that setsuki is still going to be overall the highest char when you average all 3 games. Quince is def in the running for 2nd if his yomi version works out. I really hope yomi quince is not strong enough for him to top sets overall!
  22. UlyZed

    UlyZed Active Member

    I'm not sure what makes Quince or Setsuki broken. I am completely happy to concede Quince as having really strong abilities (particularly given they are all available every turn) and Setsuki having the movement abilities, but neither strikes me as being better than other characters at exploiting the deck by far.

    I've played a lot of FD in real life and I'm not sure what puts these characters over the top. Please explain?
  23. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    I can answer for Quince:

    Unlike most characters Quince has an ability (Political Prowess) he can use on the first turn. Political Prowess works on several fronts. First it allows you to remove cards vital to your opponent's character from future rounds, often while keeping this fact hidden. Second it allows you to remove an unwanted card from your hand, thus increasing the odds you'll draw a card you do want during your recovery phase. Third in late game situations it leaves you with extra information over your opponent. Forth it allows you to ninja in that card you need in later rounds.

    So when you start your first turn, you'll have 4 card you're not using (except in rare cases) and chances are you're not going to want one of those cards... so use Political Prowess and you'll increase the odds of having cards you do want next turn.

    Next, Flagstone Tax (aside from being so good that this could probably be his only ability and he'd still be viable) generally allows you to gain momentum before your opponent really has a chance. Like either you play it when you can't Dashing Strike then Move forward and Dashing Strike next turn or you play it when you can Dashing Strike then Move forward and Attack next turn instead. Even if your opponent has a pair and chooses to part with it, now (if you used it while in Dashing Strike range) your opponent has 2 fewer cards that could potentially block a Dashing Strike and two fewer cards to retaliate with next turn.

    Finally Flagstone Tax often sets up for Two Truths, so if you didn't like that pair your opponent gave you, chances are you won't be stuck with it for long.

    Overall he's got a pretty awesome thing and he's probably going to get to do that thing and you're probably not going to get to do anything about it.
    deluks917 and UlyZed like this.
  24. UlyZed

    UlyZed Active Member

    I think Vendetta is as good as Setsuki, though I can concede Quince being a class above.
  25. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    The more I play setsuki the more I am convinced she is not as good as she seems on paper. I am no longer sure if setsuki is even the 2nd best char. Quince is definately number1 by a large margin though imo.

    btw PP has another good use that some people miss. IF you start the turn with 2 cards in deck and 5 cards in hand. You can PP to increase your hand size to 6. This way you get to make the last move of the game. I used this trick to crush Argagarg who I thught might be a hard mu.
    bbobjs likes this.
  26. UlyZed

    UlyZed Active Member

    Esper Dash can mean sometimes the other player never gets a turn. Other than that I'm not dazzled.

    Zane can do this too but is riskier and weaker; I have no idea why posters were claiming he was strong.
  27. jelyman

    jelyman Active Member

    I still hold that Zane is strong. I wish i had a membership to play. i miss fd.
  28. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    I am still taking challenges btw if someone thinks they can actually beat me as quince without playing quince or setsuki.

    So far only scarbo has been able to do this and Scarbo is insanely awesome at FD.
  29. jelyman

    jelyman Active Member

    i challenge you....now pay for my membership! lol :D
  30. Scarbo

    Scarbo Well-Known Member

    Quince using Political Prowess to extend the game is super hard to beat. Some of the characters I thought would have good matchups against him just can't end games.

    Why do you think Vendetta is super good, UlyZed? He's missing the big tools I look for in a strong character like an ability to hit the first DS (Esper Dash, Shoulder Ram), an ability for blocking DS (Rock Armor, Rising Mountain), an ability for controlling the opponent's position (Spectral Push/Pull, Beckon), and an ability that makes it harder for the opponent to DS (Steam Vent, Flagstone Tax).

    Stunlock is pretty weak compared to other character's tools for sustaining aggression like Giant Growth, and unlike other sustained aggression characters, he doesn't have a good way to end the game like Troq's Cornered Prey or Onimaru's Clockwork Soldiers.

    Surgical Strike is just weak in general. The vast majority of the times I get to attack are immediately after blocking a DS where the best number to attack with is almost always the unaltered number anyway. Mostly this ability is good at punishing misplays. I'd be surprised if Surgical Strike comes up in 1/10 games against a competent player who doesn't just forget it exists.

    Acrobatics is ok at effectively adding a card to the deck during a retreat (doesn't cost a card to retreat, so the deck is one card bigger than it would be otherwise), but this matters so rarely. Usually this ability only matters on the rare terrible hand where you have no good retreat options imo.

    So overall, I think Vendetta's tools are mediocre and very unfocused.

    Setsuki is clearly much better than Vendetta imo. Esper Dash is great at getting the first DS, which is huge in this game. It can also be used to sustain aggression after a regular DS, so it's a basically a more versatile Stunlock. Unlike Acrobatics, Speed of the Fox can't be used to extend games. Instead, it gives Setsuki more control over her position than Acrobatics, and also it can end games early (by spending an extra card to move) which I think is more powerful than possibly extending the game. Surgical Strike and Ninpo Flash are both pretty weak imo, but from what I've seen Setsuki's ability to make her attacks safe comes up much more often than Vendetta's ability to punish a rare misplay. So I think Setsuki is better than Vendetta in basically every way.
  31. UlyZed

    UlyZed Active Member

    I don't think Ven is 'super good', more I don't like Setsuki as much as other people seem to. I might not be good at using her, or maybe I'm just being wishful and believe her rebalance would be effective.

    I would say I'm valuing flexibility more than specific elements in characters; I might not be playing in an optimized environment. It's hard to know how well the game holds up until I can play on the server.

    There's a chance En Garde is just a bad game because it's so much about Dashing Strike yet Attacking and Blocking is harder to do (with less reward). I'm not sure if the character abilities help that, but it's disappointing Quince is so obviously powerful.
  32. Inkstud

    Inkstud Well-Known Member

    It sounds a bit imbalanced and obvious.
    bbobjs likes this.
  33. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Interesting... while I agree Vendetta is kinda weak, I've always thought of him as secretly a defensive character.

    Stunlock, the idea is you only use it after they retreat to a position that lets you establish an auto-win or a favorable defense, otherwise save it. Like good situations are they retreated less than 5 or less, they retreated 6 your had is 51???, they retreat to a place where you can stand 6 away next turn.

    Surgical Strike is actually scariest when you can force them to push you, Stunlock can help you establish that position but unfortunately he has no method of obtaining 1s, a defense against 1s or a particular threat with 1s... so you're at the mercy of the deck on that one. Also because of this ability you can freely waste your Pairs/Triples/Quads on Dashing Strikes and still maintain an attack threat, in fact doing so generally increases your threat since every card you see increases your accuracy.

    I've always thought of Acrobatics as a way to maintain a favorable hand while establishing a favorable position. Retreat to where you want with the hand you want for when you're there or don't bother unless not using it is likely to get you killed.

    That said I've not found allot of success with this character and you're definitely a better player than me so perhaps my take on the character is simply flawed.
    deluks917 likes this.
  34. Scarbo

    Scarbo Well-Known Member

    I liked the part where you assume I'm better than you without ever playing me! :eek:
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  35. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Your avatar is a panda, I've already lost!
    Bianary and Scarbo like this.
  36. NidoKing

    NidoKing Active Member

    I'm surprised a lot of people disagreed with you. Most of the people I've played this with have also found S tier Quince a bit obvious. I'm curious to hear from any playtesters their opinion on Quince?
  37. JohnnySmash

    JohnnySmash Active Member

    Me and my GF have played quite a bit IRL and have played a lot of Custom Clockwork mode, we pretty much always first-pick any of Quince's cards. This is just my opinion from me and my GF playing though:

    Two Truths is basically almost always a win if Quince gets anywhere near you (maybe better than every other card that assists with directly attacking, like Windmill Crusher or something). Flagstone Tax is a four-card swing in your favor (compare it to Gloria/Val/Grave's abilities that let you draw or get one card... jeez!), and Political Prowess just sets it up so if you do somehow lose a round it gets easier and easier for you (though I think it's his worst ability but still like way good).

    So yeah we first pick Quince cards a lot...
  38. dustman

    dustman Member

    Why does everyone think that Zane is good? He seemish okish to me but not top tier. Can someone explain?
  39. Plum

    Plum Well-Known Member

    I really like Zane. His mine is probably the least useful ability - you can use it to force your opponent to avoid a particular space but mostly I just drop it on their start square so that I can follow a regular strategy of dashing strikes. Shoulder Ram is awesome- a free random distance move can suddenly shake up the distance and put you in striking range, or at point blank can knock your opponent back either for offensive or defensive reasons. Further, you're drawing an extra card which gives you a tiny bit more control over the game timer. Finally, Max Anarchy is nice for all the reasons that it's nice in puzzle strike - some characters like to hang on to particular cards (Val, Rook etc) and forcing them to dump them can mess with their plans. Further, if you've got a boring or impractical hand you can risk getting a better one. Yes, your opponent might also get a better one but given that you would never use the ability when you have a good hand, the odds are that you will come out of it better. Finally, when the timer is about to run out, if you're in a bad spot, Max Anarchy gives you one last chance for a winning hand.

    Yes there's a lot of randomness there, but used at the right time and with a little foresight, they can tip the odds in your favour. The only downside is that you have absolutely no defenses so you really need to be landing the first strike and following it up aggressively. That could leave you open to characters with very strong defense but that's the price you pay for having cool goggles :czane:
  40. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Shoulder Ram really is that good, basically.
    Scarbo likes this.
  41. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

    You would think because it is random that it sometimes works but sometimes doesn't, believe me it works liek 80%+ of the time, and just sets you up wonderfully

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