Guild Wars 2

Discussion in 'MMO Design and Virtual Worlds' started by -Y-, Apr 29, 2010.

  1. Effayy

    Effayy Member

    I like the sound of this game. I've never gotten even remotely excited about an MMO ever. Well, it's more like cautiously optimistic, but still.
  2. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    There is no doubt this will be in, in GW you can create perfects sets rather easily. I haven't played GW much but there weren't many limited items (as in items that can be earned only during a limited time and are relatively hard to come by).
  3. Majidah

    Majidah Well-Known Member

    GW1 actually did this. It was quite successful for armor, where all armor was crafted and the best (mechanically) was super cheap and easy to make. The best looking required a bigger investment. "Best looking" was somewhat subjective too, I loved my sweet-awesome relatively inexpensive elite luxon armor and had no interest in the insanely pricy (and ugly) obsidian armor.

    Weapons did not work so well. While you could easily find, buy or build a "perfectly" stated weapon, it was a bit more challenging and expensive to find the inscriptions which would make it have the perfect abilities. In addition, "green" drops which were perfectly stated and difficult to find were kind of a pain. I'd have much preferred a more armor-like system, where it was very easy to just get what you needed. The problem was that unlike armor runes which were pretty much set and balanced (e.g. rune of necromancy = +1 necromancy, superior rune = +3 necromancy -75hp), the weapon inscriptions were analogue and some were flat out better than others (e.g. 19% armor penetration v. 20%). This meant that there couldn't be a very good "inscription merchant" unlike the very workable "rune merchants" for armor.
  4. sage

    sage Well-Known Member

    actually with n binary events such as you describe you create 2^n =/= n! outcomes

    carry on
  5. Infallible

    Infallible Member

    There's a good interview here that has some interesting PvP information.
  6. ryzol

    ryzol Member

    Having been an avid pvp GW1 player, and after reading this combat description I am slightly optimistic about GW2. They are making some very big combat changes for a sequel. The list:
    • No subclasses/secondary classes
    • 10 skills per bar - 5 determined by equipped items, other 5 your choice
    • racial skills
    • Your skills interact semi-intuitively with other people's skills - shoot arrows through a flame wall and the arrows get fire damage
    I'm going to miss the build flexibility you had with 8 skills and subclasses. However, this should reduce the amount of gimmick builds and the rock-paper-scissor nature of some builds. Also, since 5 skills are weapon/item dependent this should limit the powercreep of new expansions provided they don't make new weapons. It also makes balancing much easier because they only have to worry about how warrior skills affect warriors, and not how they might interact with every single skill in the game.

    Since you can switch weapons midfight, and you can combine mainhand, offhand, and 2h weapons in different ways they still allow for sufficient build design.

    I am hesitant about the racial skills.
    I really don't want it to be if you are a Water elementalist you must be a Norn, or Axe Pistol Warriors need to be Charr. It seems stupid to say "racial skills are for flavor" and then include ELITE racial skills. In GW1 entire builds were based around elites, limiting certain elites to certain races seems stupid. Also including a racial root seems dumb. Warrior A can stop people from running so he can do full damage, while Warrior B can cast spells at people who are running to do partial damage. I wonder which is better?

    If racial skills are usable pve only I think GW2 will be indisputably better than GW1. If racials are usable in pvp GW2 will still probably be a better game, but it's going to be annoying deleting and remaking characters everytime you need a different racial skill.
  7. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

  8. dansal

    dansal New Member

    Most pen & paper rpgs will give questions and backgrounds like that, it's a step in the right direction in my opinion.

    Maybe they'll take a few more cues from traditional rpgs?
  9. Warskull

    Warskull Active Member

    Racials are annoying, but not that bad for PvP. Where they really hurt is PvE. They create potential to sabotage your character at creation. Personally, I would rather see racial skills reworked into secondary classes somehow. Let players unlock access to all sets of racial skills (but only use one set at a time.)

    On top of the annoyance of having to reroll, it's also really annoying being forced to play a race you don't really like because it's the best (see gnomes and WoW.)

    It is not uncommon for PvE players to generalize and simplify things. I could easily see players rejecting certain race/class combinations from their groups.
  10. 2000 IQ Killjoy Gamer link6616

    2000 IQ Killjoy Gamer link6616 Well-Known Member

    But i thought that the racial skills were for the most part going to be fairly weak, e.g the healing race would not be able to heal as well as the healing class, and it was more just flexibility... At least, that's what one of the interviews said...
  11. Bruce

    Bruce Well-Known Member Ambassador

    I wanted to share some things about Guild Wars 2.

    Just to give some context, I started playing Guild Wars during the beta. After that, I played for quite a while, then stopped for a while but recently played it again for a bit (though Yomi has my attention now). I own the original game and the expansions, and have read quite a bit about Guild Wars 2. I feel ArenaNet are doing new and interesting things, so I like to watch and learn from what they do.

    Anyway, here are the resources:

    A new video from ArenaNet

    In the same spirit of ArenaNet's MMO manifesto video, here's another (15 minute) video from Anet that gives you an insight into the culture at the company:

    ArenaNet Retrospective Video

    To quote the video description:

    Good sources of Guild Wars 2 info

    If you want to learn more about Guild Wars 2, some good sources of info I know about are:
    • The official Guild Wars 2 website, where they publish articles (you can find those articles by mousing over "The game" section in the menu).
    • The ArenaNet blog, where they post a surprising amount of info. There are some "link roundup" posts, but they also post quite a few articles and Q&A posts, where they address questions from the community. To find all of that content, just go to the page I linked to, scroll to the bottom of the page, and you can find previous article entries (as of this writing there are 8 pages worth of links to and descriptions of posts they've made, including the interesting articles I talked about).
    • The ArenaNet Twitter page, which is a good place to "stay up to date" with info they share. They seem to post any updates they make to their sites or announcements they make on their Twitter page.
    • Finally, you can also check out the official Guild Wars 2 wiki.

    The most recent announcement was one that talked about a new profession called the guardian. More info:

    I enjoyed the second article (i.e. What’s Your Style? Jon Peters Talks About Combat), since yeah, the guardian did sound a bit link a monk to me.

    I really like that they're focusing more on allowing you to play whatever profession you want so you can get the flavour and experience that profession provides, without being completely shut out from certain situations and experiences because you don't play "the healer profession" or the "tanking profession." The idea here is that it's nice for every profession to have offensive and defensive options, but with a flavour that is unique to that profession (just like every character in Street Fighter has the ability to attack and block, but each has their own unique strengths and style, which makes for a different experience), so you can play a profession and use them differently in different situations (just like in Street Fighter and other fighting games), depending on what is more effective or useful. E.g. As a Gw1 warrior player, I know how effective a warrior (or mesmer) geared for offence can be at defense. Maybe not as effective as a monk--the dedicated healer in Gw1--is at defense, but it seems Anet are doing what they can to spread the "role" of defense to all professions, not just designate single profession with the "role" of healing/defense. (Offence as defense--pressuring your opponent, such they they can't or are weary of attacking--is another great thing you see in games like Street Fighter.)

    I feel that's a great, great thing, and I feel it's something Diablo 2 did very well, in that playing with other people was something you could do if you wanted to (and it was fun!), but not something that you had to do. In other words, you were always free to play by yourself if you wanted (which was also fun), since professions weren't reliant on each other. If weighted rock paper scissors is Sirlin's secret sauce for interesting competitive games, "independent" professions in RPG-type games (i.e. professions that have a basic "skelleton" of offensive and defensive options that can be used, depending on the situation) is Bruce's secret sauce for an interesting RPG, regardless if it's a PvE-only RPG, PvP-only, or both (independent professions are great for PvE and PvP alike in that you don't need certain professions around to be effective, have fun, or even play the game).

    I also like that they're creating things such that the majority of your focus is on what's going on in the game world (like a fighting game, and even like Diablo 2; it seems fighting games and Diablo 2 do loads of things right, heh), not different interface elements.
  12. PoisonDagger

    PoisonDagger Active Member

    No Holy Trinity? I'm sold on this.

    I love co-op action games because each player is independent, and co-operation is simply an emergent property of having two players fighting together. I played WoW for a bit, and hated how the "teamwork" was designed to the level of "you need these specific roles", so that individual players can't ever go outside their specified mindless roles. And if one player messes up, it's impossible for anyone else to make up for that mistake because losing one role screws the whole team over.

    Also, I highly recommend everyone read this link from Bruce's post ( I always wondered when someone would go against the status quo of how MMO combat works in like every game, and make something that feels more action-y and natural like Diablo.
  13. Bruce

    Bruce Well-Known Member Ambassador

    Yeah. I don't really play team games for that reason (i.e. reliance on other people, either to do well, or to play the game--or a game mode--at all), though I love playing with other people--and not necessarily verses them (pvp), either (though I enjoy that, too). In this case, I'm more so talking about Sirlin's idea of being "alone, together" (whether in a more casual, independent sense, or in a more cooperative, synergistic sense--even if it's only temporary). Diablo 2 had the "alone, together" quality in spades (built into the design), and it was oodles of fun.

    Team games can be great if you can get a good team, but without one, you sort of never really get to experience the real game (which is a shame).

    Another good article is the A new way of looking at healing and death article, which addresses the new direction Guild Wars 2 is going in in terms of morphing "healing, tanking, and DPS" into a more proactive system of "support, damage, and control."

    Also notable is ArenaNet's content on dynamic events (I don't feel this content is as revolutionary, but I feel it's part of the mix that is Guild Wars 2 that makes the game compelling):

    It's the new approach to the holy trinity and the inclusion of dynamic events--along with a game engine that is built to accommodate that--that has me interested in Guild Wars 2.

    Other stuff:

    What's also promising is the trait system, which adds an element of incomplete information to the game (not sure how much impact it'll have, though) and allows for more character customisation. More info on traits:
    They're also adding a combat log (I read that here). Though apparently it's not realistic to look at that while you're actually playing (I guess they mean in combat).
  14. Bruce

    Bruce Well-Known Member Ambassador

    Yesterday I listened to an hour-long interview with ArenaNet devs last night (it's the first interview on this page) that made me like the sound of Guild Wars 2 even more.

    Some things they mentioned that I liked were, paraphrasing:
    • offensive skills are cheaper to use than defensive skills, so you can't just turtle/be defensive forever, or you'll run out of resources (energy, I guess, or whatever they end up using)... eventually you have to go out and be more offensive. It seems there's more emphasis on players swapping between different ways of playing (sometimes playing offensively, sometimes playing offensively), which further minimises the "one player/profession heals; another player/profession tanks" reliance thing and frees people up to express themselves more in response to the situation (Bruce Lee would approve, heh). The weapon/skill swap feature (which works differently some professions, such as the elementalist... I don't have full details on how it all works yet) seems to be at the core of this, though apparently you can swap skills while out of combat (which I guess would mean that you don't have to be in town to change skills. If so, yay! :))
    • there's no taunt skill (to pull/draw monster aggro). :D
    • they're really doing what they can to make it so if you only want to pvp, you don't have to unlock skills in pve first to do that. They seem keen on separating things such that you can play them if you want, but not if you don't want to (and in the case of pvp, play it without having to unlock loads of things first, so there's an even playfield).

    (I used to weapon swap *all* the time in Diablo 2. A zealot/smite paladin with a bow was more effective than some people knew... in pvp, at least.)
  15. specs

    specs Well-Known Member

    Everything I read about this game makes me want to play it.
  16. riOtOfwOrds

    riOtOfwOrds New Member

    I've been following gw2 development for a while now, and while my initial reaction was that the game looked amazing, my opinion of it has slowly been dropping over time. I kinda feel like they are on course to do a repeat of the gw1 thing where they make a lot of really good design decisions and then ruin it with stupid little things like no jumping. Here's some of the things that bother me about gw2:
    - Consumables, ie drink elixir of agility and then have +10 agility for next 30 minutes
    - Energy system is changed to a long term resource (think of mages in WoW) as opposed to gw1 energy system which was a short term resource (more like rogues in WoW) Also related, energy potions for when your energy gets low. Gw1 had a really good energy sytem, why change it back to what basically every other mmo uses?
    - Super long cooldowns. Some elite skills have 12 minute cooldown (this is ridiculous) and normal skills can easily have 1-2 minute cooldown. Especially silly since in pve it just encourages you to wait in between battles for all skills to be ready.
    - Skills are tiered so you have to go back to a trainer in town every couple levels to learn your fireball rank 5 up to fireball rank 6 or whatever. Stuff like this is pretty minor but completely unnecessary and I guess it's just something I would expect guild wars to get right.
  17. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    In that case complain on their site, complaining here will acomplish nothing. I don't mean you shouldn't complain here, but they can't change their system without feedback. From experience I think developers listen to their fanbase which is I guess the core of problem with WoW-ization of GW2 i.e. people want GW to be more like WoW (they want more levels, crafting, items, etc.)

    As for potions I'm kinda ok with them. I still think they should be non-combat consumable (e.g they either are dispelled on attack or can't be used if a non-stealthed enemy is around). The energy change doesn't surprise me and I kinda agree. In GW when you run out of energy you have to run away for it to regen in peace.

    As for super long cooldown - Ok wtf? If you can't use a skill at least once every 3min, it's not a good skill.

    As for the skill tiering, I'm heavily opposed to it, but have no better solution atm.
  18. Swiffle

    Swiffle Active Member

    Sources for this? I haven't been following closely.
    Wtf, GW never competed well when compared with wow and other pve games. The best part was pvp, and not doing crappy MMO conventions like long cooldowns, global cooldown, giant mana pools that don't regenerate, consumables, etc
  19. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    GW's PvE is a lot more compelling than WoW's as it is, everything is just so much "cleaner" in just about every way. Those things riot cited sound really horrible. :( The energy system changes sound particularly excruciating.

    Guess I'll have to be careful not to get carried away by how good GW1 was and buy without giving it a good thorough appraisal first.
  20. pictish

    pictish Member

    With regards to cooldowns: You really wont be sitting waiting for them to recharge between fights.

    If you're in a dynamic event (which is basically like saying "If you're doing any quest ever") you can't just kill a guy and then go sit and wait for cooldowns to recharge, since the event is happening with or without you and your amount of participation matters. Same goes for pvp of course.

    I don't see any obvious way in which a long term resource in your energy bar is a bad thing. Offensive skills so far appear to be as good as free, whereas defensive actions like dodging consume a lot of energy. This means your energy bar and energy potions act as a limiter on spamming defensive actions and skills on recharge. Anet isn't dumb about pvp either, so it wont be like 'whoever grinds more potions wins pvp' or something silly. For those who like short term resource management, thief's intiative and to a lesser extent necromancer's death shroud test meter management skills.
  21. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    You can have that without consumables though, as GW1 already demonstrated, and it's just so much cleaner without that hassle to worry about. GW PvE got a lot worse when those consumable buff items really started proliferating for the same reasons.

    Maybe you're right about the cooldowns part, but I don't see how just not having a skill for an absurd amount of time like 10 minutes is a good scenario either, especially in PvP (which most likely means they just won't be picked there.) It's not like some other games where you have 10 billion skills, your bar is more limited (even considering all the changes from GW1) and particularly since you can only have one elite...Plus, I understand that there will still be SOME instanced content like the original GW - I definitely hope they don't get rid of that, being instanced was another part of the fun of GW, not having to deal with waiting around on other people for quests and so on. If so, it might well be that you're stuck waiting around. I know in some setups there could be like a 1-minute period of prep before each fight in tougher dungeons (waiting on cooldowns for buffs you want to spread around, mainly) and that was annoying enough.
  22. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    All too many:
    - Consumables
    - Tiers and Skill trainer selling skill tiers
    - Long cooldown
  23. pictish

    pictish Member

    With regards to energy, this is probably part of trying to make it harder to have useless/bad builds. If GW1 was like MTG, GW2 is going to be like sirlin's secret card game. That is, it is more restricted and much much harder to make terrible builds (compare with almost all builds being bad in GW1). Part of this was how intensive energy management was, it was something that had to be carefully balanced in your build. Taking that out probably requires ditching energy as a small but fast recharging pool with skills to maintain it.

    Edit: @Swiffle - GW2 energy pool is not something which 'never regenerates'. It regenerates constantly. In most demos, it seems to easily regenerate inbetween combats, and energy potions recharge the entire bar on a cooldown. Energy is mostly used up by dodging and defensive skills, so it's like a "second hp bar" rather than "giant pool which runs out and then you can't attack anymore".

    With regards to cooldowns, instanced stuff might result in waiting for cooldowns, yeah. I'm not sure - hopefully time will be important in some way or another, but current information about dungeons doesn't seem to say one way or another. Even in GW where cooldowns were tiny and energy recharged fast, timers were present in a lot of content. I'll hope Anet knows what they're doing with GW2 dungeons.

    I think it's hard to imagine GW2 combat, with it having so much fresh stuff. Maybe 720 second cooldowns on elites is okay, because the emphasis isn't on your build or rotating various powerful skills. Maybe it'll be more about good use of your weapon skills, positioning, situational awareness, terrain abuse etc. Keep in mind a lot of utilities that're on long cooldowns have really potent effects - like the Thief's 'Scorpion Wire' which pulls a guy to you(!) and cripple + dazes them (unable to dodge, unable to use skills). Judging when to use such potent skills is more relevant when they carry a 60~90 second recharge, and in dungeons perhaps makes them like 'once per combat'.

    I agree that consumables sucked in GW, though. Energy potions sound like a fine thing that can be balanced to be fine and fun, whatever. The GW consumables were like godmode. Hopefully GW2 consumables will be tame by comparison. At least they wont be an issue in structured pvp.

    Anyway, GW2 is shaping up to be amazing in the big picture. It'd be pretty nuts to not buy it because of food consumables or something, when compared to everything else on the market.
  24. Swiffle

    Swiffle Active Member

    guess I need to slide into beta to see how this plays out

    12 minute cooldown elite? victory or death was at 20 minutes if I remember. how can they change the pacing of the game so much

    fwiw, i never remembered any consumables in gw1.
  25. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    Did you play any high end PvE or EotN. It's a must in any Speed clear scheme. There was Grail of Might, Armor of Salvation, Rune of Celerity, Candy Canes, Sweet Corn, Candy apple...
  26. pictish

    pictish Member

    The other terrible, terrible thing in GW1 was PvE only skills. They blurred class roles hugely, and Ursan Blessing resulted in teams of 6 people with no build, just the gimmicky Ursan thing and 2 monks healing them. Gotta really hope they learned from that.
  27. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    Ursan was disgusting, but some of the others were comparatively benign. Though it ended up sucking that there was only one build for paragons to play (save yourselves/there's nothing to fear.)

    EDIT: P.S please let us know if you get information about the beta.
  28. pictish

    pictish Member

    All the information I have about beta: In an interview, Anet said 'Closed beta this year'. And then maybe an open beta, but if there is an open beta it'll be far closer to release than with a normal game.

    I'm not sure how closed beta will work, but to be on the safe side I signed up for the newsletter on the GW2 main site. Not had any emails from them yet, so I'm not sure what content they send out. Perhaps it'll be an inside track to beta, though? Here's hoping.
  29. Swiffle

    Swiffle Active Member

    I had a 55 monk. then pvp characters went in and I never PvEd again

    i think I have to PvE in GW2 though, for world vs world stuff
  30. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    The way they make it sound, to PvE in GW2 you just need to have a PvE character and go to some rift or something which puts you in the PvP zones, where you'll be maxed out on levels, skills, gear and so on. (Alternatively there's the stuff that uses your actual character, but that'll probably suck as much as using your PvE character in GW1 did.) So I'm guessing it'll require you to beat the tutorial or something so it won't be as easy to throw out a PvP character as in GW1 where all you had to do was delete an old slot and random an appearance with the same name, but it's still not like you'll have to actually commit.

    I could be wrong, that's just the idea I got from following this stuff for a while now, although evidently I wasn't following that closely if I missed these dumb 12-minute elites and consumables clunkers.
  31. riOtOfwOrds

    riOtOfwOrds New Member

    Don't get me wrong, I will still most likely get gw2 when it comes out. They are definitely doing a lot of big changes that are really good, like no dedicated healer classes, can play "real" pvp without grinding first, etc. It just is not going to be what I expected I guess.

    About energy potions - they add absolutely nothing to the game. They restore 60% of your energy and they are so plentiful that they are basically free. So the obvious way to use them is to use one every single time your energy drops to 40%. There's hardly ever a reason not to just follow that rule blindly. They may as well have just added that extra energy per second into your regen, and skipped the annoyance of keeping stocked up on potions.

    As far as the alternative to skill tiers goes, you just have the skill scale with your level automatically. For example fireball might do 50 + (your level x 10) damage. Thats how gw1 worked and thats how WoW skills work, although they orginally used a tiered system.

    Adding something to my list that I can somewhat understand why they are doing it but it still bothers me a lot: there is something like daily quests. Seems like a farmville-esque sort of psychological trick to get you to log in every day. Although on the plus side it does somewhat balance out people who have lots of time to play with people who have only a little bit of time every day to play.
  32. pictish

    pictish Member

    @Shiri, that is how it works for structured pvp, yeah. For world vs world vs world, all your regular stats are retained, matches last two weeks all day every day and Anet described it as "huge and imbalanced". More of a for fun pvp format where there could be hundreds (thousands?) of people working on objectives on a giant map. Servers will be matched against eachother based on how well they have previously performed in world pvp.

    Apparently there will be stuff besides direct frontline combat for low level characters to do. Killing people in world vs world can give you loot drops (generated stuff, not something dropped by the player) and participating gives experience. Anet has stressed you can level exclusively in world pvp if you like.

    @Riot. I agree that energy potions don't add anything in the open world while wandering around. However, you might be missing why the energy potions are good in instances, dynamic events and pvp.

    In dungeons and pvp, everyone will probably start with a fixed number of energy potions. The important part is that offensive actions seem to be as good as free and regen easily pays back the energy cost and more. This means your energy bar acts like a buffer between the monsters and your health bar - self heals, defensive skills, dodges. Spamming dodges has been shown to destroy the energy bar, for example.

    This means that there is gameplay to the potions in these situations. You ideally want your defensive actions spread out such that regen covers them while you are attacking. In reality, sometimes you will use up most of your energy and need to pop an energy potion to survive. Now you're in cooldown (we have no idea how long that'll be, apparently the cooldown was reduced in demos so people could just play around.) and more vulnerable, and you've got one less energy potion. Clearly, more skilled players will be able to conserve energy potions better than less skilled players, and there's all sorts of long term resource management going on there.

    So I think outside of 'wandering around the world map' and possibly going between multiple short dynamic events, energy potions really do add to gameplay. Maybe it's a gameplay you dislike, but it's certainly not adding 'nothing'.
  33. Swiffle

    Swiffle Active Member

    The ArenaNet Blog has details on ArenaNet's plans to show off Guild Wars 2 next month at Gamescom in Cologne, Germany.

    hands on pvp details also will be there
  34. dersivus

    dersivus Member

    "The original Guild Wars was known for the level of storytelling it brought to online RPGs"


    I'm sorry, but this just makes me laugh. Storytelling? Guild Wars? Factions had a story that I didn't care about, characters that were forgettable and a conclusion that... could be predicted easily. But I think this is the case with pretty much any MMORPG. If I want a good story, I'll play a game like Mass Effect, Alan Wake, Heavy Rain, etc. I won't be expecting a good one in any multiplayer game.

    Make Guild Wars more social? I've been saying this all along; they just need to streamline the PUG (pick up group) system. Just have a button on your screen that pops up when you are in a town that says, "Join a Party". If you click on it, you get matched up with random other players and boom, off you go as a team. It's more about making a system easy to do and happen swiftly that will encourage players to play in groups and not just solo off.

    Finally, the combat in this game will be just like any other RPG. Sure, you can make animations look cooler and maybe add some combos... but the truth is this: Combat in Guild Wars against enemy AI is the same as combat in Street Fighter against enemy AI - it's boring. The AI just does the same patterns of actions that are predictable and stupid. It's only because it's been beefed with tons of ATK and HP stats that it presents a challenge. And visual changes won't do that. To make a truly exciting PvE experience, you need to make enemies... SMARTER. It's just one area that game after game, RPG makers don't seem to get to improving.

    Now I'm not trying to be negative, but rather I am trying to be real. I've purchased all the Guild Wars and it's taught me a lot. I'm glad I got into it and not WoW. The thing that it ultimately comes to, more so than the game is just your time. Do you want to invest days, weeks or months into a game? Do you want a commitment? Guild Wars will definitely be a game where you'll have to put a lot of time into it. There's a lot of "cool" features that are going in, but nothing that changes the formula from the norm. I liked and still like that it is free to play.

    However, my beef with the game, as well as all other RPGs is that at the end of the day, it's going to be an experience where you just walk around and press 1, 2 or 3 against large amounts of stupid AI for many, many hours. I like multiplayer because it pits me against humans opponents who anger, amuse and otherwise challenge me. And singleplayer experiences for many games bore me unless they have an intriguing plot that I want to follow. Maybe I'm too picky.
  35. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    Maybe it's just because I was dumber back then but I remember having to actually think when I did a lot of the GW content, even in PvE, which is something that didn't happen in other MMOs. It obviously wasn't quite as cerebral as the PvP but I think it was something, with some builds anyway. (playing imbagon sort of reduced it to 1-2-3 though.)

    Incidentally, I don't give a crap about the story either so you are right to laugh at that comment from my PoV, but I -do- think atmosphere and aesthetic is important, and GW had that - like the way Nightfall felt like a really rich fantasy North Africa.
  36. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    As they say the one-eyed man will lead the blind.
    But yes, GW did make me read the story carefully because unlike other MMOs It would actually change the objectives mid stream, so I had to look out for an ambush and see if the objective was too easy.

    For the record Factions had a nice story set (Shiro's choice whether or not to betray the emperor while being manipulated by unknown forces - during time of Factions) but amateurish voice acting and a crappy engine really made them forgettable.
    I on the other hand didn't care about Prophecies. I liked how they subverted the player's actions constantly but it turned into a - go there, fuck up thing X, fix thing X, rinse and repeat.
    But in NF and EotN they actually made me care a bit for the characters (it wasn't great but it was ok). By that time they managed to get into the groove with new toys and the actors were at least competent (compared to the hilarious Factions voice actors). Hopefully they start off EotN experience not Factions or god forbid Prophecies.

    Ahhha. Now you made me laugh. Wait. This makes my point even worse...

    Umm, well the good thing about singleplayer is that they are really lax usually. You don't need much strategy to have some fun (unless it's high end PvE and even that). Multi-player has a high demand of skills and even then depending on the build it turns into 1-2-3-4 (see Shadow Bomber build in JQ) button mash.
  37. dersivus

    dersivus Member

    Horrible does not even describe it. It's like they hired some WWE wrestler to do the voice of Shiro. I don't understand; are you implying that the games I mentioned are bad?
  38. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    Heh, WWE wrestler would be an improvement. At least they know how to inflect and add personality. And Shiro wasn't the greatest offender. I remember the intro to Nahpui quarter was done so badly my little sister would provide better voice acting...
    - What is it?
    - Oh no!

    Not bad but not a pinnacle of story telling, like Longest Journey, Bioshock and few other gems.
  39. ryzol

    ryzol Member

    Well they did take out victory or death because people made builds designed to turtle until it and then win. So with a different game length a 12 minute elite could be worth it. Although it's hard to imagine an elite with such a long cooldown that isn't either overpowered or useless. But hopefully the designers have a better imagination that I do.

    I read some about their elite system and it sounds reasonable. In GW1 entire builds were built around elite skills. They don't want this to happen in GW2. In GW2 they want elites to be cool, be usable, but not dominate your bar. A skill that is only used 1-5 times a match is much easier to balance than one that is used every 10 seconds.
  40. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    I actually liked Mass Effect's "storytelling", but for the exact reasons I liked GW. It paid attention to some details and made the setting interesting, even though the plot itself was pretty bland/predictable.
  41. Swiffle

    Swiffle Active Member

    Not a fan of skills with ginormous 5minutes+ cooldowns. I remember roaming around in daoc, and people would sit at their spawn until their realm abilities would come up, then go wipe a group, then chill for awhile.

    It just needs to be another interesting strategic decision, without being gimmicky. if people make builds around multiple copies of a particular skill, its usually a problem. 321 pure spike builds were pretty skillless and common in gvg. it was ranger spike, sb/ri, lightning ele, etc at different points in the timeline.

    also, still can't imagine people thought the gw1 story was interesting or interactive. and yes, lol bad voice acting
  42. ryzol

    ryzol Member

  43. Swiffle

    Swiffle Active Member

    someone did a great job with that post
  44. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    Who said it was interactive :p

    It had some interesting points but it was overall pretty poor. Still EotN had at least competent voice acting, compared to the Factions several kilometers below the sea level. But I'd give credits where credit is due. Arena Net made some really amaizing background. I just hope that they'll utilize it more in GW2 (and this seems to be the case).
  45. Swiffle

    Swiffle Active Member

  46. dersivus

    dersivus Member

    Youwant to know what I had the most fun with? Elite missions. The reason is that it was hard and challenging. While in outer areas, I could press 1, 2 and 3 all day, the ELs made you think. If they could make normal mobs take skill to fight, that would be a huge improvement. I also wish that the worlds would have less mobs in the way so that simply traveling would not be a pain in the ass.
  47. pictish

    pictish Member

    Gamescon demo changes.

    Short list which some of you need to know about!

    Energy potions - out.
    Skill trainers - out.
  48. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

  49. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    Did someone want PvP info?

  50. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    Full level PvP with equal gear right at the start? I just went from not playing GW2 to possibly playing GW2.

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