Guild Wars 2

Discussion in 'MMO Design and Virtual Worlds' started by -Y-, Apr 29, 2010.

  1. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    Goes to show that different strokes for different folks. I've played around with Asura storyline. And I like it better than shoot the ghosts around with my Asura mezmer.

    One thing that does strike me about GW2 is that some abilities feel a bit... samey. For casters we got walls, shields that deflect, bubbles that deflect. I just wish the skills were a bit diversified in effects (as in what they do).
  2. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    I think in practice the abilities are more different than they first seem, but it really takes something like PvP to bring out the strengths and weaknesses of the different stuff.
  3. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    True, but what is missing atm is some condition interaction. However this is they didn't think all their condition interaction on the spot it took quite some time for them to come with them in GW1.
  4. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    Could you expand a bit on what you mean by condition interaction?
  5. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    I mean for skills, items and other gameplay system to interact with conditions. Like hitting burning stuff with Searing Flames, that does stupid amounts of fire damage. Or hitting burning foes with Steam causes blindness.
  6. Swiffle

    Swiffle Active Member

    Sounds like Fire Grab doing 2x damage to burning targets? Feast of Corruption doing extra damage to conditioned targets. Mesmer Staff pet also does extra vs conditioned targets.

    Anyway, the weekend concluded and my guild had a blast in WvW and sPvP. Here's some of the highlights of the weekend.

    This was by far our best fight to date:

    Decent sPvP match

    Here's some great WvW fight vs Sorrow's Furnace besieging a keep.
    Turbo164 likes this.
  7. Swiffle

    Swiffle Active Member

    I should also point out that I LOVE combo fields, and try to use them frequently. Situational frost armor, ae healing, condition removal, retaliation, etc pretty good.
  8. monkeyswinkle

    monkeyswinkle Member

    How was the new PvP map, compared to the previous two?
  9. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    The new PvP map is really boring compared to the first two. :( And the first one is the best, Svanir and The Chief kind of suck.

    Combo fields are deceptively powerful but it's hard to get enthusiastic about them.
  10. FimPhym

    FimPhym Well-Known Member

    I played guardian this BWE, and guardian's greatsword is the champion of all cross profession combos. You've got a skill that makes a light field, two whirls and a leap. Guardian hammer also has combos build right into it, like third auto-attack makes a symbol, then you use skill 2 for area retaliation. In playing with my elementalist friend I had an insane number of opportunities to make combos.

    Guardian's so awesome I am now certain of playing one on release.

    I spent 80%+ of the weekend in WvW and it was awesome. With two co-ordinated players we were able to take supply camps and easily neutralise or befriend npc ally camps. With a handful of randoms, we could start hitting towers and whatnot. WvW is not in the slightest bit fair or balanced, but it's certainly fun fun fun.
  11. Swiffle

    Swiffle Active Member

    I like the openness of the new map, but the flow and spacing is a bit problematic. Establishing early control let's you react to either side point the other team might make a effort to retake easily. The guild lord mechanic also doesn't seem as important as the trebuchet or npc's.

    I think the base layout of Khylo is ok, with my main complaints being the numerous los obstructions and props that you can get stuck on.

    Forest seems to be the best, npc mechanic is important so games flow from the sides and mid pretty well. Not a fan of last hit kill-stealing, but it works in every other game so I'm not gonna complain about that one too much.
  12. Ehrgeix

    Ehrgeix Well-Known Member

    So hey swiffle (and anyone else who is definitely good).

    Are there any classes you'd recommend avoiding on release? Which do you think are top 3 in pvp/why? (And likewise for pve?). I am kind of tempted to play necromancer (in that I really enjoyed necro/mesmer in gw1 and mesmer looks totally different in gw2).

    e: also tempted by warrior - I played a lot of melee in WoW, swtor, etc. I heard melee were at something of a disadvantage in gw2, though?


    Also, I was thinking we could set up a sirlin guild for GW2, since people can join multiple guilds and just invite to party to play together etc. Fim and swiffle mentioned being interested, but is anyone else planning to play?
  13. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    I'm planning on playing a bit (probably not a serious amount), I'll be on Darkhaven.
  14. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    I'm gonna be on Tarnished Coast (if I can grab the name Shiri I will, I managed before and I have headstart, but...)
  15. LoneKnight

    LoneKnight Well-Known Member

    I like melee and warrior works fine as far as I can tell. Haven't tried guardian yet, but other classes don't seem to be able to take hits while in melee at all. Even warrior needs to switch to sword and board if shit hits the fan.

    So... don't play a melee thief if you are alone is what I'm trying to say (unless you only go up against lower level monsters or something). Gun-dagger thief can be seriously cheesy against most monsters, the reverse however doesn't really hold.

    That's my experience anyway, but I didn't dig into the game much.
  16. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    Ranger seems ok for taking melee hits, though I tended to bounce in and out of melee range rather than slug it out. Basically my ranger's general idea with a melee weapon + shortbow or axe was to be in the opposite range of what my opponent wanted.

    Thieves I don't have too much experience, but their ability to escape losing fights PvP was pretty impressive.
  17. Swiffle

    Swiffle Active Member

    Avoid Mesmer, it might get fixed eventually but currently looks frustrating, squishy, and all around useless. One of the more interesting and strategic classes from GW1, but it's nothing like how it used to be. Just a pet class now, and a terrible one at that. Everything else has some merit, although for WvW, having tons of ele's around seems great for AE, adequate survivability and versatility. All other 7 classes bring something to the table for sPvP too - find some sort of role you want to fall into - power builds, condition builds, mobility, point control/holding build.

    My guild hasn't decided on a server yet, we're waiting to see where other people roll, so we can end up on a server that isn't going to have ridiculous zergs on our side, but not be totally useless fodder either.
  18. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    I disagree about mesmer, it was a lot of fun in PvP (no idea about PvE.) The clones were annoying to fight against and could be pretty fun to fight with. Avoid Necromancer, unless they made drastic changes. ;(
  19. LoneKnight

    LoneKnight Well-Known Member

    Necro looked kinda okay to me, as long as you are not using axe or dagger.
  20. MajinSweet

    MajinSweet Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't worry too much about profession selection based on balance. I'd expect a lot of little tweaks as far as PvP balance goes in the first month or so. Anyway, played a little just now (Got kicked off the server) and so far thief seems fun. A lot of things in common with the GW Sin as far as fighting style goes, which is pretty awesome.
  21. Swiffle

    Swiffle Active Member

    So far skill balance isnt terrible. Eles got hit hard, mesmers got buffed too hard. Necro is kinda bad, but still has a place. Got to 80, 400 cooking, lot of wvw, some pvp too. Having a blast.
  22. Plum

    Plum Well-Known Member

    I don't have any experience in PvP but certainly in PvE my Thief is able to solo quite happily but you have to be pro-active with avoiding attacks via evasion, blinding, interruptions and of course little bursts of stealth. She's far less able to handle a crowd though and I find it much easier to kill one much higher level mob than 2-3 even level ones, but then she's also a great escape artist when a fight goes south :p

    I whole-heartedly recommend this guide, which is PvP oriented but gives plenty of food for thought for the PvE Thief as well.
  23. Plum

    Plum Well-Known Member

    The awesome thing about GW2 is that if you're curious about a class but don't want to invest your life and find out it's rubbish is that you can just roll up and try the sPvP - get a fully formed character right away and spend a weekend playing around with different builds, getting a feel for it. If you like it then make one to level up and do WvW with, otherwise just move on to the next class :D
    dereferenced likes this.
  24. Swiffle

    Swiffle Active Member

    Thief got tweaked here and there to some skills and traits. Seems to be in a pretty good spot. A lot of people complain about it's survivability, but for PvP good thieves are hella annoying and dangerous. They can always pick good fights for them and typically get away if it goes bad, or make you invest a lot of time even if they get downed. Lowell's guide is top quality, and his guild is the most successful PvP guild to this point.
  25. Ehrgeix

    Ehrgeix Well-Known Member

    I got permabanned - t2 karma weapons were available for 21 karma instead of 21000 (no special execution required - you just walked up to the vendor (store) and bought them. I guess someone forgot to put the 3 0's in?), so I bought a bunch. This was not a wise idea!
    specs likes this.
  26. specs

    specs Well-Known Member

    Oh MMOs. So ridiculous.

    This is part of the reason that, while I do enjoy some MMOs, I don't really take them seriously. Dev puts items up for cheap and it's YOUR fault you bought them using no special means and only what was available in the game? Ridiculous.
    Ehrgeix and dereferenced like this.
  27. Ehrgeix

    Ehrgeix Well-Known Member

    It was kind of clearly not intended (other similar vendors sold them for 21,000), I just did not expect an immediate no warning permaban based on previous exposure to mmo's/games generally + # of friends/guildmates doing it - usually companies just fix bugs and occasionally tempban, warn, or rollback players. Permabans never really happen and if you don't exploit things like that you fall behind the economic curve in the game. Alas.
    specs likes this.
  28. FimPhym

    FimPhym Well-Known Member

    Yeah, anet is clearly out of line with banning over this. They made a mistake, players exploited it. The best solution is anything but to ban the players that abused it. I didn't personally, heard about anet banning over some language nonsense already and figured this was a death sentence.

    It's ashame since they had the total correct attitude for so much gameplay stuff, it's weird to see them use the draconian MMO policy of 'we'll ban you when we make mistakes'. If Sirlin were not at pax I'm sure he'd have much to say about MMO player rights and devs being accountable for their bugs.
    Ehrgeix, dereferenced and specs like this.
  29. specs

    specs Well-Known Member

    Yo Ehrgeix, go get your account back.
    Ehrgeix likes this.
  30. dereferenced

    dereferenced Well-Known Member

    Love how they define the terms in order to set the frame and take control of the conversation.

    In this context, 'exploiting' means walking up to a vendor selling an item for a listed price and buying it.

    Edit 40 minutes later: Now I'm just reading this reddit thread and getting mad. Someone light the Sirlin Bat Signal.
    specs likes this.
  31. FimPhym

    FimPhym Well-Known Member

    What is particularly baffling is how they decided their bans. To those who bought less than 50, it was not exploiting and they received a 72 hour ban. To those who bought more than 50, permanent ban. Meanwhile, players who used third party programs to bot in GW2 received a one time 72 hour ban with the promise that any future botting would be an instant perma-ban.

    Wait, what? So the thing that everyone knows is against the rules and which requires the user to actively seek to break them - 72 hour ban. Abusing a totally transparent in game bug - permanent ban.

    For those who are not playing there are two important things to know:

    First, yes it really was obvious that the vendor was bugged. He was selling high end rare fancy-lookin' gear for less than low level karma vendors sell you useless knicknacks. This still doesn't excuse banning anyone, but it's good to know that people aren't being banned over extremely amorphous squishy shit that is near impossible to tell if it's a bug or not. We're not that deep, yet.

    Secondly, I remember in IRC Thelo mentioned that just reverting the economic damage caused would be hard, since people can sell to others who then sell to others etc. This would normally be true, but since release the trading post for buying and selling items has been down 90% of the time and certainly while this bugged vendor existed. Players also may not trade with eachother face to face. At most, players could have mailed items to other players and the mail server had been down for most of the day to protect players accounts from being looted after a wave of hacked accounts and phishing scams. This makes the bans even more mind boggling - the economy is under really tight control right now! It's not as if people could have used the 'free' gear to make not-obviously-bugged gear that was then sold and resold etc etc. Reverting the damage anet caused to themselves would have been simple.

    All the more maddening that they banned to begin with.

    On the plus side: Anet is now restoring accounts that bought from the bugged vendor for 'only' 72 hours. It's better but it's still 1/10 rather than 0/10. I would love to see anet go 10/10 and take responsibility for their mistakes and give players rights in their virtual world. Instead they have chosen to be draconian overlords would can ban serfs for finding their mistakes and taking advantage of it.
    specs, dereferenced and Ehrgeix like this.
  32. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Moderator (old) Staff Member

    That is some nice language I think. I added in the subtext:

    We also believe and respect that people make mistakes. [We mean the players, we don't mean ourselves.] This is in fact the first example of a widespread exploit in the game. With this in mind, we are offering the members of our community who exploited the game a second chance to repair the damage that has been done. [Our generous offer to you unworthy peasants. Gaze upon it, and tremble.]

    Thus, just this once [Just this once, you hear!], we will offer [Generous offer, made by magnanimous saints] to convert permanent bans to 72-hour suspensions. Should those involved want to accept this offer of reinstatement, contact us on our support—and submit a ticket through the "Ask a Question" tab. Please use the subject heading of "Karma Weapons Exploit Appeal" [Alternative heading of "We knew that buying things was wrong, and we prostrate ourselves in contrition, genuflecting energetically while flagellating ourselves with barbed whips" also accepted], then confirm in the body of your ticket that you will delete any items/currency that you gained from the exploit. You should submit only one ticket. Once you have done so, we will lower your ban to 72 hours, and following your re-activation we will check your account to make sure that you have honored your commitment. [We can't trust filthy scum, so we will be watching you.] If that commitment is not honored, we will re-terminate the account.
    specs, dereferenced and Ehrgeix like this.
  33. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    One time when I worked at Gamestop they made an error in how they priced an item and it's resale (Gamestop buys used games, and this was when they gave cash for them still). It turned out that the sell price was more than the buy price for the used game. One of the employees brought and resold the game 10-20 times during the day and made a little bit of money (like <100). He was fired immediately.
  34. specs

    specs Well-Known Member

  35. Ehrgeix

    Ehrgeix Well-Known Member

    (Related - unbanned now! PvP is pretty fun. I'm running a sword/mace + hammer warrior and crushing people).

    e: backstory - this guy previously got banned for advertising an exploit when he was buying peppers to cook (using karma), cooking peppers into some product, then selling the finished product to a vendor. (Unusually high gold return).
    specs likes this.
  36. Mililani

    Mililani Well-Known Member

    This is my new favourite game update explanation hype building thing.

    From the "Runes as a Set" section: "We know that some builds rely on mixing and matching different runes to optimize a given stat, and we don’t want to stop players from doing that. "

    From the same article "Runes in PvP" section: "runes in PvP will now be a single slot you equip. Equipping a single rune will be the equivalent of equipping it to your whole armor set and it will provide your character with the same bonuses that you’d formerly receive with a full six-piece superior rune set."

    The upcoming update does some cool stuff and some ughhhhhhh stuff. I get to avoid most of the ugghhhh stuff thanks to having all classes at level 80 already but wow reading about the changes to obtaining and unlocking traits caused me some degree of pain.

    Being able to retrait anywhere is a massive welcome change for me though.

    Also the changing of "Critical Damage" to "Ferocity" to make it "easier to understand" made me lol.

    Old system: "Look at equipment, see how much critical damage it gives, decide whether I want it or not, done"
    New System: "Look at equipment, buy the equipment so you can equip it, put it on, see how much critical damage it gives, decide it's not worth it, oh no soulbound now can't sell it back"

    A little bit of research makes it easy for you to translate ferocity into critical damage but I'm pretty sure that 0 research needed to understand is generally easier to understand than more than 0 research needed to understand.
  37. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    It seems weird that they're going to allow world PvP to have more options than the arena PvP; unless I am mis-remembering and you use arena gear for world pvp.

    The crit dmg thing makes sense given the typical RPG tropes and their real goal (require constantly new gear to maintain a % of crit dmg), but ya ugh.
  38. Mililani

    Mililani Well-Known Member

    You don't use arena gear for world pvp, you use pve gear. Though they're supposedly making PvP and PvE less separated in future updates and have already done so slightly so that might change. Recent changes allowed you to get PvE levelups with PvP currency as well as gold for PvP games. I think the future updates are just about not separating skins though.

    I think the main purpose of the crit damage change is for scaling purposes so they can downscale it the way they do every other stat. If scaling wasn't an issue it would make a lot more sense to change all the other stats to be like crit damage is now. The "easier to understand" comment just gave me a bit of a giggle.

    The changes to the trait system make me groan (except for reducing it to 6 points per trait tree rather than 30 because you only ever used multiples of five anyway) but leaving interesting customization until even later in the leveling curve is like super horrible.

    And the new traits will probably be like the new skills in that they won't be unlocked from the start for sPvP which just, ugh, gross.

    Apparently you can buy trait unlocks unlike skill points though so it'll be slightly less bad I guess.
  39. Mililani

    Mililani Well-Known Member

    Correction, you can buy trait unlocks -with- skill points.

    *flips table*
  40. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    So you now unlock them like you unlock your class abilities?
  41. Mililani

    Mililani Well-Known Member

    Sort of.

    So the primary way of unlocking them is by completing certain tasks, I can only see the requirements for the 5 new traits because I have all the others but for those you get one for beating one of the Orr meta events, I imagine the rest are from similar tasks in level appropriate areas (and probably easier soloable things)

    But there's an alternative way where you can purchase them for gold+ skill points from your profession trainer based on tier.

    Adept are 10 silver+ 2 skill points
    Master are 50 silver+ 5 skill points
    Grandmaster are 1.5 gold+ 10 skill points
    And the 5 new traits are 3 gold and 20 skill points each.

    To unlock every trait this way would cost 43 gold and 360 skill points so ouch and that's per character. (the gold cost is less than what you get from cashing in 800 gems so I don't really have a problem with this part, you can pay to skip that part of the grind and it'd probably cost like 5200 gems to get all 8 classes traits but there's no way to bypass the skill point grind and 360 skill points on top of unlocking skills and whatever else you might want to spend skill points on is a monster of a grind)

    If your character was made before the update you have all but the 5 grandmaster traits pre-unlocked but even then 15 gold and 100 skill points per character is rough.

    Decided to look things up and the requirements are linked here

    They range from completing personal story steps, to beating story mode dungeons, to finding and completing jumping puzzles/ mini dungeons and 100% completing areas :s

    Really feels gross to me, the problem with levelling in this game was the exact opposite of having too many traits to play with, having the trait system be so locked away and restricted can only make the game more monotonous.

    One of the benefits of the levelling system was how you got equal exp in lower levelled areas so you had a lot of options for where to do your levelling so levelling multiple characters was less of a chore because you could send them all through different areas, now you're basically tunnelled into following the same route on every character to unlock all of your traits. I'm really glad I levelled up every class before this because I wouldn't even bother under this system.

    1 step forward, 50 back :(
    Logo likes this.
  42. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    I started playing GW2 recently and in all sincerity leveling characters is not a really big deal. What you want to do, is get the Infinite Harvest/Mining/Chopping tools and HARVEST ALL THE THINGS. You'll get silly amounts of EXP really fast. I already have lvl 80 char with 83 bonus skill point (I have all the traits other than the few from special events). I get 40 levels worth of skill points in like 8-10 days or something. Also doing bosses like Tequal Shatterer and other yields huge amounts of gold (2g directly, plus a lot from drops and items) plus scrolls of extra skill points.

    Things that are worth investing money in:
    - More character slots
    - Infinite harvesters (get the special clockwork mining pick to mine clockwerks) they remove a gold sink
    - Bank collection expansion (+250 to collections) to a maximum of two. I don't think many recipes require more than 750 stacks of some material.
    - Additional bank tabs
    (Don't buy additional bags just craft/buy 20 equipment boxes)
  43. plumlum

    plumlum Well-Known Member

    Posts like that make me feel bad for -Y- for internalizing mmo culture.
    It takes 80 hours to level up to endgame content. It should take maybe 2 at most. I don't understand MMO's boner for locking content behind levels. Progression is fine, but levels aren't.
  44. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    Well the grind is a bit addicting. But GW2 is probably the least offending. Most stuff gives a lot of experience. I've gained ~12 levels just crafting shit. And you can level crafting in like a 15min. You also get leveler 20 (instantly level to lvl 20) for your birthday. You can instantly level to 32 in 15min.

    As for locking stuff behind a time barrier, there is no way that you can design enough content to interest PvE people. Without grind those people leave the community, causing numbers to plummet and turning your MMO into Ghost Town.

    Maybe user generated content will help, but I doubt that would work. If you have of people consuming stuff and only 10% of that community generating quality enough stuff, I don't think you can
  45. Bianary

    Bianary Well-Known Member

    What end game content?

    Once I get a character to level 80 in GW2, it often feels like I'm out of stuff to do. (I guess ... fractals, maybe? But that requires a group willing to keep pushing to higher levels.)
  46. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    Where there are high end Dungeons, World Bosses (Tequatl and Wurm). And I guess WvW or PvP. Oh, and Guild Missions.
  47. Bianary

    Bianary Well-Known Member

    I guess I took high end content to mean "challenging", which knocks out the dungeons, world bosses, and guild missions -- the latter two may be hard for groups to complete, but that's an organizational challenge and not an individual skill challenge.

    PvP can be done anytime, and everything except the XIII traits are unlocked (Though that trait thing is lame and a failure in what their initial PvP design had been.)

    WvW can be done before 80, if you keep your gear maxed at level you're pretty effective. I do grant that you get a power boost once you're fully geared, but it can be played before then. (I'll leave discussions of imbalances for another time. WvW has a whole bunch of other problems besides that.)
  48. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    Doing WvW is possible, but before level 80, your gear is subpar and your WvW levels are low, so you can't contribute much.

    As far as I know, the same can be said of any raid. It's not hard on individual level, it's hard on organizing it. Also fractals and Twilight Arbor are lvl 80 dungeons.
  49. Bianary

    Bianary Well-Known Member

    Yeeep :(

    Edit: More in line with the original topic...expansion announced, new challenging content, new PvP mode, etc. etc. etc. Maybe interesting? Linky
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2015
  50. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    Actually it is HoT not HotS.
    Rytlock didn't die... Where did you heard that? He jumped into the mists directly. Mists aren't Underworld. They are literally that from which everything comes.

    Also yes, we'll be exploring Maguuma jungle. The thick leafy part. There are indications the desert is caused by Primordius or another dragon encroaching on Mordemoth's land.

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