Guilty Gear XX Accent Core Plus R (Pronounce it like a pirate. ARRRR!)

Discussion in 'Now Playing' started by tataki, May 28, 2012.

  1. tataki

    tataki Well-Known Member

    It's a brand new version.

    It's worth mentioning that the only stuff revealed so far are buffs, not nerfs.
    So while it's not written anywhere, I think it looks like most characters are back to their pre-AC selves in style of play, plus some new tricks to compliment that style.
    Are Sirlin and Lofobal hyped yet?
  2. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    I will play it. I wish step 1 was "revert game to gggx Slash" though. I would prefer the Slash version of Slayer, Potemkin, and Faust specifically. I really don't like Potemkin's AC frc's on his throw, which is kind of hard execution and character specific combos for no real reason (he was fine without that before). Also I claim his AC air spd is literally bugged, the input detection of it. At least in my version. I kind of quit the game after practicing that for hours and hours and hours and still missing it something like 50% of the time or more. Maybe it works now? At least the stupid Potemkin loop with fall-on-face and super is probably nerfed (good).

    Also the ground slide mechanic in AC added nothing to the game. Just more harder combos (as if it's not enough about that already) but no additional real gameplay. AC is kind of off the rails to me in so many ways, but I will at least try this out, yeah.
  3. LoneKnight

    LoneKnight Well-Known Member

    Johnny got a high coin?

    ... yay?
  4. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Man, I've been super hyped for months. I've been doing so much training mode in preparation for this, and I absolutely hate training mode.

    Johnny's new coin is my favourite change. Even if I don't end up playing this game, I'll definitely enjoy watching DC throw coins all over, so more coins is great!

    Eddie's buffs look like fake buffs, so I hope that's code for "he's getting nerfed and we're just not showing it." Looks like a bunch of nerfs are being disguised as buffs, like Slayer s.H slide and Baiken's chain alpha counter change and ground tatami change.

    Not really sure what's with Venom c.S →H chain. You could already do that with c.S(3)→P→H. I guess this means it eats less guardbar to do that? AC Venom is pretty close to perfect, though, so it looks like they just gave him some token changes.

    ABA s.H cr.H gatling looks craaazy. Too bad Bridget's FDing in that clip so we can't see how much guardbar it builds.

    Dizzy fish superbite is nice. It was kind of hard to get those links to work, this makes it easier and gives her some extra pressure options. I'm not sure what the deal with laser stick is.

    Testament's EXE beast hold is wtf, looks glitchy. I really don't like the teleport, that move was really dumb on EX Tesu. No idea why they changed his traps to be DPs, that seems like an unnecessary difficulty.

    Raoh air specials are cool. Robo's new missile is really cool.
  5. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Chip gets force breaks that might actually be useful?! Thank fucking god.

    Other than that i'm excited. I have Accent core but no one will play with me. What system will this be on and will it have online?
    link6616 likes this.
  6. 2000 IQ Killjoy Gamer link6616

    2000 IQ Killjoy Gamer link6616 Well-Known Member

    PS3 and 360 with online play I believe.
  7. Kayin

    Kayin Well-Known Member

    So far, everyone seems excited.

    Some of the changes seem insane to me, but it's location test stuff so whatever. Differently some cool stuff I'd love to see make it into the final game (omg high coin).
  8. LoneKnight

    LoneKnight Well-Known Member

    Is that vid from the loctest? Because then Johnny also has his EX air super. Which is awesome.

    But I honestly don't see the hype with high coin, he had so many problems I'm not seeing that actually fix anything.

    Also, lolling at RoboKy's HIDDEN KNEE MISSILE.
  9. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    I think a lot of that is based on "my guy got buffs!" because all they have released so far is buffs. When they start seeing nerfs maybe they'll be upset. I'd pleasantly surprised to see otherwise, though.
  10. 2000 IQ Killjoy Gamer link6616

    2000 IQ Killjoy Gamer link6616 Well-Known Member

    I'm just looking forward to the new hype the game will get and that I'll actually be able to play Bridget against OTHER PEOPLE.
  11. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Wheezy was listing new changes to me during chat last night, I'll talk about them I guess. I won't list the ones I have no comment for, I guess.
    Pretty big change, I guess that might be why she has that brutal new blockstring. This kinda makes sense, because when you're winning in AC the timer doesn't matter that much. If done properly it could make her pretty interesting.
    Kind of surprised about the stand kick nerf. I mean it was pretty brutal to get hit by that but it didn't seem overpowered? I dunno, I don't know that much about his matchups, so maybe it really was a problem.

    The dumbbell seems to move really slowly but have a lot of stun, seems interesting.
    Oh wow, that's a big deal. I guess that's why they added that close S →H chain. Faster →H means teleport combos should be easier, I think. Not sure if it changes Carcass Raid loops, the reduced time to buffer might be a thing. It seems like they might be trying to tone down his crazy loops a bit, which I approve of.
    More combo options I guess? It might actually help her learning curve a bit if it allows you do some combos without needing HCL FRC airdash, since that is absolutely required to play her at the moment afaik.
    →K was kinda crazy and makes his close game too good, so that's good. I like it when Testament has the distinct weakness of having trouble when they're right in front of him and not at frame disadvantage. AC Testament covers that really well with →K and forward EXE and feels like really shitty design.

    I kind of hate Badlands, but a neat thing it does is, by throwing them behind Testament, it lets him set traps then move forward and Badlands will throw them over him into the traps. It's rarely used for that in AC because of the loops, but maybe it could be interesting. I'm skeptical though.

    EXE not hitting on summon might make it more trap-ey and less zone-y, seems like it could be cool if it's not broken as hell. The teleport not having a hit makes more sense than I thought. I thought it was just a rip of EX Testament's, which is crazy broken.

    Overall I like the direction they seem to be going in here, making Testament more about traps and tricks and less about total lockdown and confirming every poke into solid damage. I might even enjoy playing him again.
    Oh good, they fixed slidehead. He really doesn't need anything more than just the OTG state. Once he gets in he's golden. Not really sure what the j.S thing is about. I thought it already did that?
    Good. Goddamn. This one's an obvious change to make.
    Good. That move is stupid.
    Fixing her damn FB is another obvious change. Seems like they might be trying to remove her "everything ends in a corner knockdown," which is nice.
    Dog nerfs! Dog is pretty crazy so ok. Making him more about Raoh and less about dog seems cool.
    Oh weird, I don't know why they'd take the overhead off Axl Bomber, it seemed fine. I thought that was the whole point of making it aim downwards. I guess it still gives big frame advantage on block but it seems unnecessary. I don't even know what the rest of it means so whatever.
    I didn't like this at first but it's growing on me. It's kind of cool to have a character a character who really really wants to airdash all the time everywhere, and that's part of what makes Justice cool. Obviously the triple jump/airdash had to go, that's unsurprising. As long as she still screams and shoots lasers and has those cool win poses and that lovely red art, I'm sure I'll enjoy playing her in casuals.
    I thought S-dandy was really fun, so more dandies sounds fun too! He'll be really different though. I'm not really sure what they're trying to "make" here, to be honest.

    Not sure what the removing stagger on s.H is about. Maybe it's to remove this? Maybe it'll still stagger on CH or something.

    I was expecting bite buffs, so "the same" is a little surprising.

    Oh wow, Undertow is kinda crazy. I know in AC you can do (combo video only) CH Undertow RC 2-hit air super, which does huge damage and instant dizzies some characters. I wonder if that'll be a real thing.

    Stomp nerf seems reasonable, that move is pretty stupid. I know in some matchups I was pretty happy to make it trade with stuff into DoT FRC combo. I wonder how long the stagger is. Often you're kind of far away, so you don't really have much to combo there, but maybe it'll let you start some pressure, which would be cool.

    Ughhh this all sounds terrible. The only reason Slashback is tolerable is because of the whiff animation, and guardbar increase is not enough of a punishment. Also what the fuck at being able to SB Dark Angel? It's like they don't want fireballs to be good or something, goddamn. I hope this shit gets thrown out the window.
  12. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    loketests will heal all. And where did we find these changes? Wanted to see whats up with chipp, order sol, and johnny.
  13. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Watching some a-cho this morning, noticed a few things I wanted to mention here.

    Watch Ruu's Bridget dancing around the stun edges, then think about how it would play out if there were no whiff on slashbacks.

    This combo is pretty crazy. It only works because of the →P→H chain though. Not really sure what Venom's going to do off →P without that. If you get a close hit you can go into close S, but if you get a sort of far hit, I'm not really sure.

    Wheezy's been pasting them to be in chat. I think he's pulling them off some Dustloop thread.
  14. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    I mean AC Venom's anti-air is absolute tops, crazy strong, so I can sort of understand it, but hmm.

    On Testament, I expect the nerfs mean 1-hit Badlands combos will be gone, which would be great because wtf, he's not Johnny.
    →P is stupid as hell, it's #1 thing I would change in AC. Shadow Gallery loops do crazy damage so that change makes sense. Damned Fang FRC was pretty dumb damage-wise, so that's pretty reasonable. It's not like you need a FRC to combo it anyways.
    Not a fan of this for reasons previously mentioned.
    Slow walk makes sense, though she'd probably be fine with Slayer walk or something. Removing DP combos seems good, that was always kinda "uh what." Counter stance not catching low is reasonable. I wonder if it still stays out for as long. I remember it being really active.
    Don't like the ↓D change at all. The really fun thing about that move in my opinion was spacing it just right to get frame advantage, and more recovery makes that much harder. Sage said it's probably to change BBU combos and change CH ↓D combos, but I feel those have other, better solutions, like giving it plummet on air hit or proration.

    I don't know the reasoning for speeding up ↓S, it already only had 8f startup and makes his antiair less interesting.
    Oh wow, this is a big deal. I'm interested to see how this turns out. It definitely seems to make her more interesting.
  15. tataki

    tataki Well-Known Member

    It does seem like it, looking at those changes. Like how the real Accent Core, sequel to slash, would look like if done right.
  16. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    I was lying in bed thinking about changes, and upon reflection I'm pretty unhappy about the new Venom FB Carcass Raid. Freeze balls are much cooler and more useful than crazy bouncy balls that are probably not even in the right direction. I really don't think the freeze balls were close to being too strong and this removes a lot of cool interactions, particularly if his other FBs are changed as well, which would make sense from a consistency point of view. Venom seemed close to perfect, so this is really disappointing.

    There doesn't seem to be much being said about Dizzy. Her new FB is obviously better than her old one, which was maybe the worst move in the entire game, but I question how useful it really is. It's pretty fast and covers a decent amount of space, but at far, where those properties are most valuable, it seems unlikely to give good damage unless it has crazy recovery. Dizzy's meter options are generally kind of terrible, so maybe you use it anyways, but eh. I havn't seen much info on how her new bite fish works, but if it's the K fish like it seems given its travel, the tremendous increase in time it spends in one spot really weakens its ability to protect you as you dash in. I'm really hoping it replaces the P fish, since that's weak outside a knockdown, which is where this would be good.

    After some thought, wallstick on the high laser fish is nice. That move is really bad because it doesn't hit much and has terrible payoff when it does, due to level 2 hit way far away from you. With this you might be able to control that space and do IAD j.D or lightning spike or something to get a small combo.

    Really Dizzy's biggest difficulty is that she needs knockdowns to do impressive stuff, and she often needs to give up damage to get them and she straight up can't get them in many places. Further, her big damage comes off stuff that's really hard to reliably hit with, like bubble pop and the first hit of lightning spike, and her damage doesn't really benefit from meter use (maybe fire super in a couple specific situations) due to her weak options there. I guess it just feels strange that she cares so much about knockdowns but many other characters just get "free" knockdowns off their combos. I suppose that might be because she's better designed in general, but it's frustrating to be left in the dust.
  17. LoneKnight

    LoneKnight Well-Known Member

  18. Thelo

    Thelo Administrator Staff Member

    My amateur translation of Faust changes from the japanese pdf:

    - New move, "I'll go from behind": hit D during qcb+K
    - Stand K: Attack hitbox widened, vulnerable hitbox widened, on counterhit it floats instead of wallbounces
    - Far stand S: Bigger offensive hitbox, bigger vulnerable hitbox
    - Stand P: Startup decreased from 6f to 5f
    - Crouch K: hits 2 and 3 have lower (level? priority?), instead of just hit 3
    - Jump D: Untech time increased from 20f to 24f (?)
    - "coin": If you hit with this, next time you hit with the scalpel's "one more time" air slap, it'll be a fire slap, and the coin bounces once after hitting the ground (?)
    - "frying pan": It falls from above your opponent, and has 1.5x dizzy power
    - New item, "chikuwa" (fish-paste cake?)
    - New item, "iron 'aire'" (???)
    - Chibi Robo-Ky, falls down faster
    - Donuts: Gains more health
    - Chocolate: Gains more tension
    - Scalpel pull-back: frame advantage from +5f to +6f
    - Backward pogo move: untech time from 20f to 40f (?)
    - qcf+D after scalpel pull: No longer a force break (requires no tension), wallsticks instead of wallbounce
    - qcb+D: Proration changed from 50% to 70%
    - Air qcf+D (air pogo): Works like when you're riding the pogo (?), the command is "during a very small jump, hit D" (??)
    - Air qcf+D (air pogo): Hits OTG (?)
    - Air qcf+D (air pogo): Prorates 80%
    Lofobal likes this.
  19. Thelo

    Thelo Administrator Staff Member

    My amateur translation of Kliff changes from that same pdf. Note that I am not actually fluent in Japanese, these may contain mistakes!

    Also, damn, Kliff has a lot of changes.

    - Dash is now "step-type"
    - Jump and superjump are more affected by gravity
    - Instant kill lasts 100f in total
    - Stand kick floats on hit
    - Close S (does something) on antiair hit
    - Close S gatlings more easily
    - Close S's offensive hitbox's is smaller in the upper part
    - Far S has 2f less startup
    - Far S can no longer be jump cancelled
    - Crouch S is the old crouch HS
    - Crouch S hits OTG
    - Crouch S forces 70% additional proration
    - Crouch S now has 12f startup
    - Stand H vacuums (?) on antiair hit
    - Crouch H is the old crouch S
    - Crouch H "blows away" on antiair hit
    - Crouch H staggers on ground hit
    - Crouch H now hits low
    - Crouch H can be delayed by holding the button
    - Sweep has 10f increased recovery
    - Stand D: Now 25f startup
    - f+P: Now 13f startup
    - f+P: Can delay by holding the button
    - f+P: Bigger vulnerable hitbox in the upper part
    - f+H: Can delay by holding the button
    - f+H: (does something) on antiair hit
    - Jump S: More cancel frames
    - Jump S: Offensive hitbox smaller in the rear
    - Jump H: Second hit floats on hit
    - Jump H: Offensive hitbox slightly smaller in the front and rear
    - Jump D: 15f extra grounded recovery
    - Jump D: Smaller offensive hitbox at the bottom
    - Ground throw: Reduced range
    - Air throw: Opponent is thrown furhter away horizontally
    - Air throw: Reduced range
    - Dead angle attack (alpha counter): Opponent flies back on hit
    - qcf+P: FRC is now during frames 17-19
    - qcf+P: 4f reduced recovery
    - qcf+S: FRC is now during frames 25-28
    - qcb+S: Now 16f startup
    - air qcb+S: Now 9f startup
    - air qcb+S: Now 6f of grounded recovery
    - air qcb+S: Easier to hit with the whole move on airborne hit
    - air qcb+S: Now has FRC during frames 29-31
    - air qcb+S: Increased (recovery time if you don't hit?) by 50f
    - air qcb+S: Falls faster
    - qcb+K: FRC is now in frames 24-28
    - qcb+K: On hit, it counts as a strike (??)
    - dp+H: Can move during the attack
    - dp+H: Vacuums on hit
    - dp+H: Gains more tension
    - qcf+P or S -> qcb+P (counter stance): Higher chance of hips failure
    - qcf+P or S -> qcb+P (counter stance): 10 more dizzy
    - qcf+P or S -> qcb+P (counter stance): No longer cancellable
    - qcf+P or S -> P: Maximum number of hits is now 1
    - qcf+P or S -> P: Can stagger on hit
    - qcf+P or S -> P: Invincible to strikes until it strikes itself
    - air hcf+S: Bigger offensive hitbox in the front
    - air hcf+S: First hit knocks the opponent straight down
    - air hcf+S: Second hit hits OTG?
    - air hcf+S: 8f increased ground recovery
    - air qcf+D: Wall bounces on hit
    - air qcf+D: Kliff recoil-floats higher (?)
    - air qcf+D: Lasts 25f
    - air qcf+D: Now has 8f startup
    - New move: qcf+P or S -> D
    - qcf, qcf+H: New command for Reflex Roar (was previously qcf, qcf+S)
    - qcf, qcf+H: Consumes 50% tension
    - qcf, qcf+H: Wall sticks on hit
    - b, f, hcf+H: Can delay by holding the button
    - b, f, hcf+H: Now has 15f startup
    Lofobal likes this.
  20. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    So we've got translations. Who wants to explain what these changes actually mean for the characters?
  21. LoneKnight

    LoneKnight Well-Known Member

    Well, focusing on Johnny: he's got faster, both in movement and recovery (at least with 1f mist cancels he's probably going to be a lot safer or able to apply a bit more pressure, and he also got 4 less on fS).

    New 3HS gatlings sound like they make it safer.

    6K counterhit sounds like you will be able to do whatever the hell you like (though I'm not sure how much that actually happens).

    Throw got better and got FRC. I always thought he had one of the better throws in the game and I can't even begin to fathom what you can do with the FRC.

    Divine blande buffs; maybe it'll be good again. Invuln? Really?

    MF changes sounds like new combos a' brewin.

    Jackhound nerfs hurt a lot though. The move just got really punishable which for a FB is kinda bad. I miss Slash....

    New coin and super: no idea.

    Seems like he got faster, safer and got a lot more combo options and even a bit of utility out of DB transport, in exchange for making Jackhound weaker. Considering he was a bottom contender that's really nice but I don't know how it'll stack up with the other guys changes.
  22. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    I'll write some stuff ok. I know a couple characters pretty well and then varying amounts about others.
    Can't argue with that.
    Already said how I feel about this
    Good change. It was a cute reference at the time but it's become rather dated and out of place.
    Wow I wanted this so badly when I first started playing this game years ago! I probably don't care at this point.
    Uh what? Why? This is a sad change. :(
    Overall sounds good, though I'm a bit worried about clutter.

    Dizzy actually has a surprisingly small hitbox, one of her few defensive strengths. Not really sure why they're nerfing that, she has pretty awful defense otherwise. It seems like a polarizing choice and I disagree with it, but in the end it's not a huge deal, whatever.
    Hell yes special cancel is back! Good riddance to bullshit jump-install garbage. The gatling is a bit strange, I wonder how they came up with that. I went and tried to emulate it with roman cancels with mixed results. Whiffs on Ky, OTGs Faust, combos into icicle vs Baiken. Looks like it has some practical and gimmick applications. I look forward to trying it out!
    You always cancel this move somehow anyways, so this only really matters for whiffing. It's nice to have a less punishing whiff animation, though.
    It's already jump/special/super/roman cancellable, and it launches so I'm not really sure what this does. Probably I'm missing something.
    These two moves are what she gets pretty much all her combo damage from, particularly the cr.K, so they matter a lot. The J↓S did huge damage, so it's not surprising to see it get a bit of scaling. cr.K hits all day, so even a little more damage on that matters a lot. Overall this is a buff I think.

    I always wanted a thing that indicated when she could fish, so I'm happy they added one. :3
    P fish: Looks like this replaces the old K fish option as the one you use when you need super armour. It might be a little better, I don't have enough info to know.
    K fish: Replaces old P fish as "lockdown bites," but with some notable buffs. It doesn't float around biting nothing uselessly if you don't aim it quite right, and it bites quickly and together, so you don't need to do finicky link combos to keep lockdown going. This lets you get more to the fun part of her mixups and worry less about the hard work part.
    S/H fish: Oh, wow, wallstick on both, that's unexpected! It's hard to evaluate this one, because I don't know what combo options there are. There might be some ways to do some crazy stuff with this, I'm not sure. All the ideas I have require counterhits, but eh, Dizzy's biggest damage already came from Counterhit Fishing, so that's not a big thing. At the very least it means they knock down, which is a big thing.
    We have no info on these so time for rampant speculation! Maybe FB fish is like Gold Dizzy's and stays out forever, or maybe it shoots 3 bubbles like the EX, or maybe it lets you have TWO fish!?!?!
    Maybe FB icicle always knocks down and has better recovery or something I dunno.

    The big thing here is that she has way more meter options, which is great because in AC she probably has the worst ones of anyone.
    Mixed feelings on these. It makes them better at setups, worse at controlling space. I feel like she already has tons of setup options and really needs what they do in controlling space, so I might end up unhappy about this overall. That said I am thinking of all sorts of cool tricks I might be able to do with them and getting excited, so there's that.

    Even though I'm not excited about the bubbles being attackable, Potemkin is probably happy about an easier way to deal with them, since that's a tough match for him, and overall it probably makes the game faster paced, which is good I guess.
    Spray. Probably has some uses but I'm not excited.
    Buff to fun move. Yay.
    Hate because it will make the big laser part less cool. Hate hate hate.

    Uh wait doesn't that have 200% prorate? That could make for some pretty flashy combos. Still hate though.
  23. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    The mist cancels seem HUGE to me. That's +3f on tons of stuff, wow. All sorts of crazy stuff suddenly becomes possible, I think.

    His throw is really good but pretty finicky. The little extra untech probably doesn't change the damage much but maybe makes it easier to combo. No idea what the FRC is for. Combo videos maybe.

    Bacchus Sigh's FRC is a little earlier, but honestly I'm not sure what that does.

    What is going on with the Jackhound nerfs? That move doesn't even seem like it was that good?

    Air Divine Blade groundbouce sounds a bit exciting.
  24. tataki

    tataki Well-Known Member

    Stuff from the changelist relevant to Sirlin:
    Slayer back to slash style.
    Potemkin back to slash style. FRC Buster removed.
    Chipp j.d slide effect shorter distance, much easier to chase and combo.
  25. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

  26. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    How are
    • groundbounce →H, still no special cancel
    • s.H groundslides on air hit, doesn't stagger on ground hit
    • stomp staggers for comboz and launches when they're sliding
    • j.D even more untechable, and combined with j.↓K always gets knockdown
    • gimped j.H hitbox, ruining an iconic move and his entire air-to-ground dynamic
    at all like Slash?
  27. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Watching the loc test, a few things about Dizzy
    • That ↓D into s.H is probably a typo, it's the other way around (like in #R and Slash). I did think it was a pretty wonky change.
    • The P fish is HUGE, like the sprite grows really big, and has a lot of blockstun. That supports my idea of it being intended as her superarmour move
    • EX knives has a lot of blockstun, looks like you can do it after normals to continue pressure
    • She has a "far" icicle!!
    Didn't see EX fish or EX icicle so idk what's going on there.
  28. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Just saw a on stream a certain yellow Johnny do throw FRC high coin into air combo. He couldn't keep it from being black beat but it was against Robo so I have no idea what that means overall. It looked like a hard combo.
  29. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the stream link. Thoughts so far-
    Johnny's cancels seems pretty nasty.
    The new venom force breaks are...interesting? The extra bounces might have some really neat setups if they aren't too fast.
  30. tataki

    tataki Well-Known Member

    I said Slash "style". As in, closer in how he plays to Slash than to AC, and undoing a lot of the AC stuff. He's not Jam 2.0 anymore that's for sure.
    You don't really expect them to copy how he was in Slash 100% right? They'll rebuild him. They have the technology.
  31. tataki

    tataki Well-Known Member

    Pot is back to being a grappler now.
    PB FRC removed but PB itself does like 40% damage, and then throws them far away so he has to get in again.
  32. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    No, I expect that when you say "Slash" you mean playing like Slash. Instead they are changing how his AC stuff works to other AC stuff. He gets groundbounces and floorslides for COMBOZ. Stomp is always BIG DAMAGE when it hits instead of being a CH fishing poke, ruined j.H makes him more about hit-confirming and less about "I have all the buttons, you have none of the buttons." Note that Dead on Time, the hit-confirmiest move he has, is completely unchanged. Note that his link combos are entirely unchanged, which is one of the biggest changes from Slash and another big source of hit confirms.

    It's pretty obvious that AC Slayer's repeated stand H relaunches were not intended, so they removed those. His air combos went on forever so they got toned down, but he still has j↓K and powerful j.D so he always gets the finisher he wants and always has you where he wants you. He's still a combo machine that always gets a corner knockdown and does big damage off whatever he wants. He's even LESS about bullying with big moves than ever before (like j.H)

    Positive changes are that they're trying to make Undertow[fire punch] and Bite usable (tricks!) and they removed that stupid property where stand K needs a jump install to use. Those don't make him "like Slash" though.
  33. tataki

    tataki Well-Known Member

    I'll reserve judgement on that until I see more of him, and not just people who try to play him like AC.
    Lofobal likes this.
  34. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Fair enough. I expect him to turn out to be a new thing we havn't seen before. I'm not fond of many of the changes I see so far, but it's a loctest and they seem to be really in the "what if" stage right now, so there's plenty of time for it to become something totally different.
  35. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Venom changes, as translated by Thelo and given to me over AIM (with some minor edits by me)
    The "backspin bullet" is the thing from the teaser video where the balls bounce off walls. Carcass Raid seems to give 2-3 bounces (maybe 2 and the floor doesn't count?). Arc Stinger is listed as giving one. Balls hit by them pick up the property, so you can place more balls while they're all bouncing around to keep this field of bouncing balls going.

    I was pretty grumpy about freeze balls disappearing, but the new bouncey CR balls look pretty fun! It seems like a cool minigame to see how long you can keep them all bouncing around the screen, and I expect some cool tech will come out of it. For Arc Stinger I don't know what will come of it, and I don't know how Mad Struggle balls will work out. I'd be ecstatic if CR kept bouncey and the others kept freeze, but that seems unlikely.

    I was confused by "change the placement" last night, but today I noticed on stream some players seemed to have some of the old pre-AC ball patterns. I think it sets your balls to the pre-AC pattern corresponding to that button, which would give him 9 patterns total, wow.

    I'm pretty sure balls don't boost guardbar in AC. Honestly I never checked until today. So that's a minor buff. Arc Stinger charged shots already did that so no change on those.

    →P going back to the old one gives him more ways to hit balls, but I always found it harder to anti-air with. This is pretty reasonable; AC Venom's antiair is crazy good, and he doesn't really need it to be that good. He can cover the space above his head with H Carcass Raid I guess.

    →H is also back to pre-AC. This is pretty reasonable too, the AC one is pretty absurd, though the combos were quite pretty and gave him a lot of ways to set up balls during them. I don't know what the active frames change means.

    c.S nerf is weird. I guess they felt that with the third hit working vs crouching it cranked guardbar too fast? It'd give 3*16=48, which is close to the 2*20=40 it had prior to that change. Seems unnecessary but it's not a back breaker.

    →K's new groundbounce looks like Accident Core material and very silly. It's such a fast move and chains with close slash, so you can easily get these really wonky bounces that go way high. I'm skeptical that that's what they're aiming for with this, so I expect it to undergo some more changes.

    Air throw FRC, man. Venom has a great airthrow, so this is probably really powerful. I wouldn't be surprised if they made it prorate more, though I guess it already shreds guardbar. No idea what the combos for it will be like, I havn't seen anything longer than throw+single hit yet. As for whether he needs it. Uhm, dunno.

    Dubious curve pressure nerfs, man that makes me sad. Maybe you can get an extra rep of the corner loop in though, and some midscreen combos might be possible, particularly with the teleport. Looks like they are making it more tricky (teleport) and less lockdown (-3 on block instead of +3).

    Stinger Aim input, I seriously have no idea what that means. You can already input it as [↙]↘S, so no clue on that.

    Doublehead Morbid extends, I have no idea what they do, I havn't seen them on stream. The S one shoots them FAR, like fullscreen at round start, maybe fullscreen even when you're cornered. It seems pretty sweet.

    Teleport runaway is nerfed with extra CH state and more time before you get away. Maybe it's because no one could catch N-Otoko? Hah. Well also maybe it needs to be that way given its new interaction with Dubious. More time on the other end might allow for some tricks or more help landing that new air throw? I'm not sure, because it takes the same amount of time overall. I'm left with this sad feeling that it's mostly nerf here.

    FB Stinger shoots absurdly fast, so every time I've seen it it's been a brief flicker of stuff flying in a death line. I miss Heven Prison but maybe this will be more widely applicable in matches? It's hard to say. Venom's meter is pretty valuable.

    FB Carcass Raid looks fun, as mentioned above. With Tactical Arch it makes the screen fill with stuff, which is amusing. It tends to shoot stuff every which way though, so I'm wondering how useful it'll end up being. I guess new tech might find ways to direct it, which could make it pretty strong.

    I have no idea how good Tactic Arch is, but it's very expensive for something that isn't guaranteed damage and it seems pretty slow. At the very least I hope to see it used in some combo videos off Dubious Curve or something.
  36. tataki

    tataki Well-Known Member

    From what I've seen in the loketest Venom's zoning is probably several times stronger than it was before. People were winning with him without knowing a single regular combo, just simple chains.
    People were also experimenting with the new super, and FB charged ball. It's pretty scary.
    I'll be uploading a ton of rounds on YT today.
  37. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    I don't believe his zoning is "several times stronger." →P change means worse anti-air, →H loops gone means worse damage. I watched every Venom match for about 6 hours yesterday, and when I saw him winning it was usually from deep knowledge or fundamentals, not from new stuff like FB CR/stinger or buffed Doublehead Morbid.

    There was one player who went on two win streaks with him that, based on art and style, I strongly suspect was Nanashi, who would be destroying people basically independent of what changes. In one match there was a Bridget who was so outclassed that he just did the same pattern over and over and the Bridget just stood there taking chip damage, unable to figure out a way around it.
  38. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Wheezy asked me about Justice. A bunch of her changes are changing things that obviously couldn't stay on a real character, or making her into a tank (more like Potemkin). In her changelist it lists new data for a bunch of her normals, but not the old stuff. I only have #R data for her, so all I can do is compare to that. Since she wasn't a real character, they weren't fine-tuning her, so it's probably pretty accurate anyways.
    Old Justice had crappy defense AND a huge air hitbox AND was floaty so she got killed by juggles. Also she was the tallest character so there were tons of IAD infinites on her. Those changes are obvious. The other ones like slower movement, increased meter gain and backdash changes are to make her a tank.
    Made her IK activation really slow because IKs don't belong in real matches (fuck you AC Eddie)
    Speeds of her fast pokes slowed down so she gets frame trapped. Again a change to make her more of a tank. From memory, Potemkin, Axl, Faust are the characters who have 5f startup as their fastest normals.

    Low kick made a bit faster and mixes up, ok. I didn't even know that didn't do that before, because why wouldn't it?

    Her close S is like Cammy's close strong, punches straight up. Probably you always chain it so the frame advantage doesn't matter, so this just makes it a bit worse at anti-air. 13f is a LOT of active frames for a move, this is pretty reasonable.

    Dizzy's far S is basically the same move afaik and is 8f startup, so 10f is a bit conservative. That move is pretty strong against, for example Potemkin since the multihits beats super armour and he can't crouch under it like other characters.
    Potemkin's cr.S is 14f startup (this is 9f) and has vacuum, but the hitboxes seem similar. Not sure what you can do off the stagger. Wouldn't you often just dial in a chain into sweep wasting the stagger? Or cancel into Michael Blade with the same effect. Not sure how this plays out, will need to see.
    Uh, ok wow. This move looks like Hulk's stand heavy but a bit smaller, so 6f startup is REALLY FAST. Note that this is the same speed as her stand jab. This is crazy enough that I'm wondering if it's a typo. If it isn't you probably use this all day for everything.
    I checked with Thelo while writing this. It is, in fact, a typo in the translation. It still has 12f startup, that is much more reasonable. Not much to say about this, it's a little better at zoning.
    Oh cool, a launcher. The immediate comparison that comes to mind is Potemkin's, but his is cancelable. This is 2f faster and much safer on hit/block though. I'm not sure what the untech time on this will be like, so it's hard to speculate on how it will work. It's less boring than her old one though.
    Justice's air moves are absurdly big. This is just making them a little less Boss Mode.
    Extra untech to make sure the second hit connects properly, which is important now that she doesn't have two jump cancels. The immediate question with that sort of move is "can I abuse a 1-hit somehow?" but I think the untech is short enough and the move hits in such a way that that's not a thing here.

    You used to be able to do backwards airdash tricks with this because of the weird way it hits, but now that she doesn't have an airdash that's gone. Maybe you can still do some fun stuff with it as a meaty, not sure.
    I think this basically means she makes a choice between j.H ender for a knockdown or j.D into air Michael Blade for damage. Seems legit
    In #R this hits high on both hits, though the first hit is kind of short range. Unless that's changed, this is a really fast overhead, though her lack of dash will make it difficult to get into position for it. For chain combos, lots of stuff goes into this, but only s.P/cr.P go into both it and cr.K, so she'll need to be pretty close or cover herself with a missile or something to do that, and the low blockstun of the jab will leave her open momentarily. I guess she can still threaten overhead/sweep and do a combo into missile FRC for some strong wakeup game. I'm wondering if she can do some fuzzy guard stuff with the jump cancel. I think probably she can't due to the increased startup on j.H, but maybe on Potemkin she can.

    For anti-air, the speed increase is a welcome change, as is the jump cancel. She'll need stuff like this to keep people off her. I don't know what the hitbox was like before, so changing it doesn't mean much to me. I suspect it's to make it weaker as a ground to ground poke.
    17f startup means you aren't chain comboing into this, just frame trapping, and it's -9 on block. When I saw it on stream it launched the same way I remember, so I don't really know what this is talking about with the stagger or vacuum. It's already pretty big, so an increase in size is interesting, but I think it's still too slow and unsafe to be a great option.
    Whatever she already has a much faster overhead in →P. They probably just made this slower so that you don't need to worry about yet another overhead. Maybe it still hits sometimes if you cover it will a missile or something.
    Preemptive nerf to that →P/sweep mixup. This is a really big poke and you can end a lot of strings with it, so it's reasonable to not want her to be at frame advantage with it.
    Alpha counter doesn't hit twice. Sure, whatever.
    Helps her get out of pressure.
    A bit less damage, a bit less active. This move used to stay out all day (22f), now it stays out slightly less. Axl's stay out a pretty long time and they're 4-17, so these are still really active. This has 9f startup, though, which is really slow. Not sure how useful this is.
    Dunno what this does. Probably it's the old one and the H is a bigger one.
    Bigger Michael Blade that's harder to combo. That startup is pretty long. Maybe you do it off →H or something.
    Combo ender
    Dunno what this does. Maybe you can do it off the first hit of jump S? That has a bunch of untech now. Don't really know how this one works out, particularly since I don't know how techable the wallstick is.
    Previous patch notes said it was uncomboable, but that doesn't seem the case here? Maybe the vacuum makes it awkward or something but you FRC. Has fullbody invuln now and you can make it safe, so this seems like her main thing to not get killed. Has 7f startup, which is relatively fast for a full invuln move, though reasonably easy to safejump.

    I thought the old input was more intuitive because she rolls backwards, and it's not like RDP is harder to input than DP, but sure whatever. I guess this makes her commit more to the motion.
    It will be interesting to see how needing to hold a button affects FRCs, particularly since these have FRCs. Cool that you can spray them all over the screen. She was kinda lacking in tricks, so this gives her some stuff to do.
    I think these will be pretty important due to her awful move speed. Think Potemkin Hammerfall FRC. Unlike Potemkin, she doesn't have a meterless version into break, so she'll be even less mobile. I think her regular movement and jumps are faster than his though.
    This sort of looks like Shuma Gorath's laser, I think? It spins around and whatever, originating from her head. It hits 18 times and if you are on her head when she starts it, you get hit all those times. The weakening it vs guard is reasonable, and makes it less viable as anti-air. It does more damage and has combo options, both of which are reasonable given that her weaker mobility probably makes it hard to set up. Not sure if it also shreds guardbar less, which would make the post-FRC actually worthwhile, will need to see.
    14f super that hits fullscreen and has fullbody invuln until it goes active, launches with high untech and a slow fall. Not sure how much mileage she's going to get out of the FRC. The float is good enough that I think she doesn't really need it up close, and at far she has the mobility problems again. Probably she needs full meter to do fullscreen combos with it, spending the other 25% on boost to get over there.
    Hate the FRC for the same reason I hate Dizzy's, it makes the sweet laser less cool. Faster startup means it might do anything, but I'm skeptical, particularly since her other supers are good and you need 100% meter to even start it. I guess we'll see.
    Saw this on stream, it's JUSTICE INSTALL. It turns her blue and gives her airdashes and stuff. Not sure what the frame data and buffs are, but it's pretty awesome and I hope they make it legit good. A super mode that turns her back into a boss character is really cool and fits her flavour, since she's the commander gear and we know Sol has one. This move is A+++

    When it expires it she has a short dizzy pose (like Dragon Install), and it cranks her guardbar to max. It might also drain her burst or require it, I'm not sure. I just saw that the burst meter was completely empty when it ended, but I couldn't remember if she'd just used it.

    Overall I'm happy with how her changes are coming along, but at the moment I'm predicting she will be underpowered. Her weaknesses are pretty heavy and I'm not sure she has the powers to make up for them. Consider that Potemkin has similar mobility issues, but has flick, slidehead, hammerfall+break to compensate, and the best backdash and throw for defense. Justice just has some missiles (a bit slow) as her meterless tools for ranged options, and Boost and Super Michael Blade as her meter options. They're decent options, but I don't think they're enough to let her fight Venom, Axl, Dizzy, Testament, or new Zappa Sword, and I have no idea how she can handle runaway Bridget.

    All of that would be fine, that's what tuning and playtesting are for, and her concept is workable, but she's suffering from the HDR Akuma problem where most testers only seem to be playing with their mains instead of trying her out. I've only seen two rounds of her on stream and no Kliff. It's a great sadness that the characters needing by far the most attention are getting the least. On a similar note I predict Kliff will be poorly tested and end up too strong, since they seem to be buffing him for some reason and think that him dizzying people is core to his concept.
  39. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Hmm, I think I undervalued the throw buff. Her throw is really comboable, and she has good mixups, so that it pretty strong. I think it doesn't help her where she really needs help, though. It'll be a nice option when she gets in, though.
  40. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    like this
  41. LoneKnight

    LoneKnight Well-Known Member

    Justice as balanced and playable now? I'm going spam gamma rays all day. Going JAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA while a gigantic beam fills the screen just touches something deep down inside my very soul.
  42. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Right? It's super awesome. That's why the FRC is so lame.
  43. LoneKnight

    LoneKnight Well-Known Member

    I thought I may be alone with thinking that since "gigantic beam super" is like, every second super in MvC games, but it somehow manages to be ridiculously awesome for Justice. I think it might be the buildup and the JAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

    Also, holy fuck Zappa sword looks retarded.
  44. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Yeah the scream is what makes it.
    Every time I've seen it it's been wrecking people. I don't know if people just don't know how it works or if it's actually too strong, but man. Sword used to be Zappa's worst summon, so he's looking pretty beast now.
  45. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    I like new sword and hope theres at least a good reason for Beam FRC. That said I NEVER see beam anyways from dizy so here's hoping justice has a use.

    Also can someone link me a vid of slash slayer being slash slayer so i can understand these discussions about him?

    just realized they gave venom his EX super. I remember accidentally finding a OHKO combo with that once in AC. Wonder if it still exists.
  46. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Here's a set.
  47. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    So short version would be-
    Average normal combo damage.
    Good normals.
    VERY good counterhit damage.
    Short combos.

    Am I missing anything?
  48. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    I'd list his normals as extremely good and mention his tricks that let him dance all over the other guy like
    • fake mappa
    • teleports
    • fire punch
    • normal throw with great range but low payoff
    • slow throw (bite) with better payoff and range
  49. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

  50. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Hopefully Venom stays that powerful, though I'm a little sad they slowed down that crazy super.

    Potemkin cr.D special cancellable seems like a horrible choice. Hate.

    Slayer still ruined. Super hate.

    Justice still sounds weak? Buffs to her missiles should help a bit, but I think she needs more than that.

    Dizzy cr.D sounds like it has #R strength back? Well I love Dizzy buffs but that one seems iffy.

    edit - Still nothing about Zappa? I wondering if he's still totally crazy.

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