How much do characters need Both sides of their Aces

Discussion in 'Yomi: Fighting Card Game' started by deluks917, May 28, 2012.

  1. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    The tpos thread got me thinking about how much various characters need and depend on having both sides of their aces. I'm not sure how practical this discussion is but I am interested in what people think.

    Imagine you had to choose your special move and could only play one side of your ace. What acharacters would still be good? I think rook probably gets hurt the least. CMB is a really great fun move but I think he needs it much less than than other guys need their aces. Grave I think could get away having tpos as well (especially against similarly nerfed opponents). I think grave actually dies need spark arc since it is really versatile and makes all his combo's do great consistent damage. On the other side I think arg is crippled if he loses BS or BFS. I'm really not sure how the other characters would be affected.
  2. Bucky

    Bucky Well-Known Member

    Every single character uses both sides of their ace, although a few (e.g. Midori) build their strategy around both sides.

    Lum could possibly get away with having a 0-sided ace in some matchups.
  3. major_shiznick

    major_shiznick Well-Known Member

    I'd say the only folks who don't need both sides are probably Val and Setsuki. I agree with Bucky about Lump and would claim if the opponent has a counter, he needs both sides and needs neither if they don't. I don't see why you undervalue CMB so much, deluks. A card shouldn't be judged solely on risk/reward of playing it. It's one of those cards that gets worlds better if your opponent knows you have it. The threat of a sudden victory is very big, and noticeably affects the way your opponent plays the game 90% of the time.
  4. tipzntrix

    tipzntrix Well-Known Member

    Val needs to AA in combos. With one side, Chromatic orb would need to be an ender IMO.

    EDIT: Same with Sets on Shuriken Hail
  5. major_shiznick

    major_shiznick Well-Known Member

    The operative word here is "need". Masterpiece is in no way a major part of Val's game. Shuriken Hail you can argue, but the only time it's really preferable to Surprise Gift is...oh, wait. Never. If you have a single A in hand as Setsuki, it's basically dead weight to bluff away, pump to Q/K, used as counter fodder, or maybe attack in desperate times. I almost always power up AAA for AA, and AAAA comes around so little it's laughable.
  6. tipzntrix

    tipzntrix Well-Known Member

    Personally, I think Masterpiece or at least replenishing 1 card on a large combo drop is vital to Val's game. Orb is well and good, but when you drop for J++ or AA, having a small hand really hurts Val. J++ hurts more and you have more of a variety when throwing out your pump cards, while AA gives you that replenishment for your hand. Comboing straights is nice, but if J is the only way to get mediocre card efficiency in combos, Val's combos look a lot less scary.

    As for Sets, Shuriken Hail is 1.0 to stop a few AAs. Esper dash is fairly fast but can't do thatm while dodge is sometimes unavailable after KD or vs Midori. Surprise Gift is the go-to combo ender, but if Q is your only stop to the 1.2 attacks, you're in a pickle.
  7. Mililani

    Mililani Well-Known Member

    I agree with this post. I really think you're underestimating the power of cards that exist just to be threatening deluks.

    But you acknoweldge Arg needs BFS, and that's a threat too. So maybe I'm wrong.
  8. brainof7

    brainof7 Member

    I think val needs masterpiece. She can keep looping 4 normals together with masterpiece without having to rebuild her hand. Otherwise, she needs to block again and becomes even worse!
  9. major_shiznick

    major_shiznick Well-Known Member

    Or she holds on to those Aces, tops the combo off with something else, and gets left with an effective block/A mixup while her hand is low. Having two Chromatic Orbs in hand is far better than dropping Masterpiece into an easily Blue Bursted combo (more cards, more damage, more versatility) unless your hand is huge, in which case you probably have something better to stick in that combo. AA is good out of dodges and sometimes throws. It's far from being a necessary part of her game in the same way that, say, Rook needs CMB and Wall of Vines.
  10. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    Geiger needs both pretty badly. Forgot about him.
  11. brainof7

    brainof7 Member

    No, you 4 normals AA. It lets you search your AA back, makes it easier on the normals you draw, and is better damage per CP
  12. major_shiznick

    major_shiznick Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I was too fast reacting and forgot about that, but the point remains: it's a nice bonus, not a critical part of her gameplay. This thread is about characters who would become trash if they didn't have both sides, and Val hardly fits that description.
  13. Inkstud

    Inkstud Patreon Supporter

    Is CMB really necessary for Rook? I think literally every time I've ever played that instead of wall of vines it's been a mistake
  14. Morn

    Morn Well-Known Member

    I would argue that Lum easily requires both sides. Pandamonium/Blackjack/PF is the kind of three-way mixup Setsuki dreams of getting in her day, and is a very important part of his game. Yes, you can get some mileage out of just forcing through the powerups and PFing immediately, but if your opponent knows - absolutely knows - that Lum has four aces in his hand, the guessing games are so potent and the damage so worthwhile that it ends up being a whole little game unto itself.
  15. eugeybear

    eugeybear Member

    It seems like there is a lot of talk about whether both sides of the A are "necessary" for a character, when the original topic was a question of "how much" a character relies on both sides of the A. So instead of talking about a yes/no list, perhaps we should have more of a sliding scale. For example:

    -Changes play style, but minimal change to character effectiveness - Grave, Rook
    While neither character relies on their multi-A sides, they are good tools because opponents tend to play around it

    -Loses a big option, but has some ways to partially make up for it - Lum, Setsuki, Jaina
    For Lum it's matchup dependent. And as mentioned, in some matchups Lum would be fine with a 0-sided A
    I'd adjust that to say that Lum would be fine with a 0-sided A that did 4 block damage.
    Setsuki's single A is not an integral part of her game except that it allows her to play a single A when she has no
    pairs, Q's or K's.
    Jaina loses a big dodge threat, though AA is still good. It also forces her to buy back her Q more often as a poke.

    -Loses a big option that can be hard to make up, but the character isn't complete trash - Val, Midori
    Midori loses a big dodge threat and like Grave/Rook, opponents often end up playing around it. But unlike
    Grave/Rook, Midori has less good options without it. And if a lot of K's have been played, DF becomes very
    predictably attack-heavy. On the other hand, if he loses the AA attack, as mentioned earlier, DF is too fragile
    for FDB to be the only use for his Aces
    AA gives Val the nice 4-normal to AA combo and allows Val to get a card even if a combo runs into Blue Burst.
    Also, there just aren't enough J's to make her dodges and throw combos super-deadly. This makes her throw
    game more viable damage-wise. (Throws are still always good for KD or for a 3-normal follow up to get an A)

    -Character sucks without both sides - DeGrey, Arg
    DeGrey will just keep getting outsped in all attacks without the dodge. And without the AA, he becomes even
    more reliant on drawing face cards for damage.
    Arg without A block is just sad, and speed/damage is too much of an issue without AA.
    PePeQu likes this.
  16. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    thanks Eugeybear for expressing clearly what I had meant for the thread.
  17. Ryker

    Ryker Well-Known Member

    I saw this thread and died a little inside when I thought about it.
  18. eugeybear

    eugeybear Member

    Oops, I left Geiger off of my list too, though I didn't completely forget about him. I actually did think of him, then decided I wasn't sure which category I'd put him in and that I would come back to him later. And then I didn't come back to him later.
  19. Kawaiiness

    Kawaiiness Active Member

    Val needs masterpiece, badly. It is the single most crucial card to winning a game with val. Throw into masterpiece is almost her entire throw game (aside from J which uses an extremely large amount of cards) and being able to attack into masterpiece is also better than throwing naked A's late game (unless your hand is very, very small for some reason).

    Throwing out orb gives you a chance to deal 10 damage at no card (although you are down an A and up a random card). It also gives you a chance of dealing 3 damage and giving the opponent a card. Early game it's her best poke, but far from crucial. It's just a better Q early game, very useful, but not crucial that you have them.

    Late game if you just throw out an A you're gaining very little from a successful yomi at a lot of risk if you mess up. 10 damage and no card lost is seldom worth the risk if you make a poor read (unless your hand is below 4 cards). On the other hand, AA gives val's throws a lot of strength, and can be also linked with a 2/3/K as a starter (esp with 10s). When you link your AA into a throw or 2/3/K you are guaranteeing yourself 16 damage (don't play into facedowns).

    For a risk of 1.4 speed on your 2 (not counting 10s) you are gaining a large damage increase on a successful yomi. (even if they joker you can play four normals and it's still a victory for you) Your goal should always be to maximize the amount of advantage you gain with a successful yomi and minimize the loses you take. Throwing out chromatic orb regularly (in a non rook/midori MU) is wasteful.

    She doesn't really need Orb. It's not really that great most of the time.
  20. eugeybear

    eugeybear Member

    So I've thought about Geiger a bit more. I'm not sure how valuable my opinion is here since I don't play Geiger much, but it seems to me like he doesn't need both sides of his A in most matchups (though obviously it doesn't hurt to have it). The problem seems to be that the side that he wants to keep differs between matchups.
    Overall though, I feel like he'd be in the second or the third category (of the ones that I listed earlier) in most of the matchups if he could change which side of the A he keeps for different matchups. If he had to get rid of the same side of the A for all matchups, that would make him a bit worse.
    Grave - Want Cycloid for speed, TD is hard to activate because of Grave's counters. I'd probably put him in category 2 since Geiger really shouldn't be counting on TD combos against Grave in the first place.

    Jaina - Probably want Cycloid for speed since UP Jaina is sometimes hard to hit with TD combos. Still, they're valuable enough that this would probably put him in category 3. He still loses a major weapon against Jaina.

    Setsuki - Needs Cycloid for Speed. Losing TD combos still hurts him a lot though. Probably category 3.

    Midori - Hurricane is probably more useful in general. Geiger can often win speed battles and TD can be very punishing to Midori if he's KD. This is probably category 2.

    Rook - Same as Midori.

    DeGrey - Same as Midori.

    Val -I don't really know this matchup well, but this seems to me to be the matchup where Geiger is most hurt by losing one side of his A. Cycloid is very useful in winning (or tying) speed battles and TD helps him keep up with Val's combo potential. I'm guessing that this would be category 3 or 4 regardless of which side of the A Geiger has to give up.

    Lum -I don't really know the matchup here, but I'm guessing you'd want to keep Cycloid to help deal with Lum's recurring face cards. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

    Arg - Not sure here, I'm thinking Hurricane would be the more useful one. Cycloid speed is mostly relevant against BFS. Hurricane on the other hand still out-speeds everything else and is safer against BS. Not as useful for TD combos though if Arg gets counters.

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