How To Fix Tanks: An idea

Discussion in 'Kongai virtual card game' started by NicotineJones, May 29, 2009.

  1. NicotineJones

    NicotineJones New Member

    Since this would require programming, there is a minimal chance that we'll see it implemented, but here it is:

    On the turn after a successful intercept, the interceptor can range change for zero energy.

    This change has three basic consequences: first, it makes intercepting more attractive, which is probably something that needs to happen anyway.

    Second, it means that the very-common situation where a tank is in an early energy hole due to get-close against an opposing pass is more favorable for the tank. Whereas currently they will get ranged out on the next turn even if they do intercept successfully (get-close would leave them with 20 energy, not enough to threaten an attack from any tank) under the new rule a successful intercept would set up a 70 energy/100 energy situation on the next turn where the range is still at close. This allows tanks to pressure, and also enhances the "rushdown" feel.

    Finally, it creates a real incentive for single-range characters to intercept at their disfavored range. Right now, once someone goes far on an Onimaru or Ashi who has already done anything with their energy, they can't really do much but rest-- they're going to have to need about 80 energy to get back in and threaten, and that means either multiple turns of intercepts or one turn of resting. Here, one successful intercept puts you back on the offensive, and therefore is more attractive.

    What do you think?
     
  2. Drakir

    Drakir Member

    First off I'm not sure there is a flaw with the tank concept, Oniscroll for example is an excellent character.

    Also this would work both ways, someone poking you from far while dancing would get the same "pressure" effect on successful intercepts, and tanks are often stranded at far with a 50-50 guess.

    Somehow it seems like such a drastic change. But despite these flaws I like it, but don't think it's something worth the effort to get it implemented. It's essentially in the same basket as the "switch-to-yourself" dodges suggested earlier, in that it changes the ruleset of the entire game.
     
  3. Sefthuko

    Sefthuko Member

    lol buffing intercept lol

    ...however, this would be a nice innate for one of the new characters!
     
  4. gremlinc5

    gremlinc5 New Member

    Agreed!


    .
     
  5. CoVi

    CoVi New Member

    We have a little chat with drakir and this was one of the innates we proposed... but making this for every single melee char will make them extremely good... An onimaru with this will be a walking inferno.
     
  6. AWJ

    AWJ New Member

    This idea would help people rangedancing against tanks just as much as it would help the tanks themselves, so it's probably a wash as far as making tanks better goes.

    If anything, it helps Higashi and Rumiko.
     
  7. angeldemonyo

    angeldemonyo New Member

    Using higashi with this mechanic brings a smile to my face (sort of)
    Lets do it! The tanks (especially oni) would benefit more than the range dancers though. At close I think double slash is more fearful than whatever far ranged nuke you can try to throw at oni (after going far).
     
  8. icewolf34

    icewolf34 Well-Known Member

    Well, Chalice already gives a pretty similar effect, right? I could see maybe swapping out Helene's innate for this, especially if FS also goes up to 8 to trade with Eviscerate and Open Palm.

    Off the top of my head I would guess that this makes Ubuntu, Andromeda, and Tafari a little worse.
     
  9. jayelsee

    jayelsee Member

    I think maybe tanks just need better resistance on non-physical attacks. They get killed by stuff like voidstream.
     
  10. angeldemonyo

    angeldemonyo New Member

    There needs to be a general item which highers the strength of multihits by like 1 or 2 depending on the type of move. Say for light dark moves, it raises by 2 and for physicals it raises by 1. This would solve helene's problem. her problem is that she cant do damage (in addition to being absolute shit in everything else but physdef, speed and hp) and this solves it. Frenzied can potentially be 10x5 with this (12x5 enchanted), but as you know, it is still upto her to try and maintain close. So it balances out.
     
  11. AWJ

    AWJ New Member

    Yeah, I just recently noticed that the top tier is full of characters with mainly single-hit attacks (plus CC, who effectively turns his 8x3 into a 24x1 in the span of a couple turns) while the multihit-dependent characters cluster around the bottom (Andromeda, Phoebe, Cain, Helene)

    We may need to reevaluate the balance between single-hit and multihit attacks (e.g. make multihits even more energy efficient compared to single hits) or add more abilities like Rain Dance to the game.
     
  12. MidKnight

    MidKnight New Member

    Yep.Phoebe is useless because a lot of characters have at least 3 Ldef (while some effectivelly negate rapid lashes with 5-6).
    Helene's only good speedy attack, which is Frenzied strikes becomes useless against chars with 3 Ddef.And even though you can enchant, enemy can always switch in a char with high Ldef, effectivelly negating the enchant and sometimes making it useless.

    Anex doesn't have such problems, cause the VERY worst situation which can happen for her if she enchants is if enemy switches in VV.At that case she does 18 damage instead of 20.And every other case the damage will still be a plus.

    Seriously, compare Phoebe to Anex.Power lash is pretty much equal to Power toss (power toss being arguably better as I don't like relying on a 30% chances), Chakra slash is a buffed hamstring and instead of rapid lashes, which are useless against some chars, Anex has a single hit 'hits fleeing' attack.
     
  13. Alhazard

    Alhazard Active Member

    A long time ago, Sirlin proposed that getting INTed also prevented you from gaining 20en that turn. IIRC, it never got implemented because a lot of the top players were against it.
     
  14. AWJ

    AWJ New Member

    Like I said, I think anything that makes intercepting better will most directly help Higashi and Rumiko (and Chalice I guess). Going beyond that, it favors characters with spammable attacks, since it's harder to predict when they'll switch and less safe to intercept them (fail to intercept 20-en CC and you eat a voidstream; fail to intercept 20-en Ashi at far and all that happens is she gains 40 energy to your 20). So if anything, buffing intercepts hurts the monorangers, since they find themselves with no options but switch or rest more often than any other characters do.
     
  15. CardinalSmith

    CardinalSmith New Member

    totally agreed (well almost totally, higashi will not benefit much imho). while I like the original idea, and agree that life is harder in general for mono-rangers, and they do need the buff, I dont think this is the way to do it.
    to make cards more equal, all cards should have something beneficial to do at all time, regardless of range and energy. rest hardly qualifies. I suggest boosting the rest option. however, I have no idea how :( (more energy is clearly out of the question, since changing range must cost more than what rest gives, healing creates more trouble than its solves)
     
  16. angeldemonyo

    angeldemonyo New Member

    Tanks have energy problems. To compensate they need extra damage for the ONE hit they should be able to 50/50 w/intercept, or the ability to hit more often(lower energy costs or more regen or something)

    Oni and Ashi are usable because of the damage aspect.
     
  17. CardinalSmith

    CardinalSmith New Member

    I still vote for making rest more meaningful. 20 energy (vs. for instance intercept) seems too little, and gives too big an advantage for cards with spamable moves (I consider 25 energy spamable). like it was noted here, its not only the fact that they pose danger at any given energy (sometimes at any given range as well!), it also makes intercepting them that much harder. I would like to hear what others think of that (boosting rest). I have a few ideas, but maybe that's for a different thread.
     
  18. Twinge

    Twinge New Member

    It seems like an interesting idea, but I'm against fundamenetally changing the game mechanics at this point. Honestly, I think tanks are fine; they have more hit points to compensate for their mono-ranging, and it works out just fine for Ashi and Oni at present.
     
  19. x1372

    x1372 Active Member

    Tanks do not need fixing. Helene needs fixing.

    Tanks were a huge factor in the metagame before the last patch. It felt almost like suicide NOT to have at least one on your team.

    With a fixed Helene, she is likely to see a resurgence. A speed 10 (with valk) solid attack will be quite helpful for Helene, able to outspeed even a rising dragon. An upgraded Sword Slash with accuracy and proc will make her more viable against everyone, even those with high dark defense. She'll still have trouble with Ubuntu and Juju, but will be able to rip into Voss, Rumiko and Yoshiro while likely going toe to toe with Anex and (with valk) CC.

    And with more Helene comes more Ashi and Andromeda. Hopefully this will make more other characters see use as well.
     
  20. AWJ

    AWJ New Member

    How much of this was because they were among the few characters CC couldn't OHKO with a pilebunker crit?
     
  21. angeldemonyo

    angeldemonyo New Member

    Just wondering, but beforehand how much better was oni against CC?

    And that probably hits the point pretty hard. Oni might have have still had hypno problems, Ashi should have done fine, helene can block PB, but in a tank heavy metagame, helene would be used more since her move(Frenzied) beats out the other tanks at close. (I believe oni falls to enchant+swordslash+frenzy and ashi gets pwned the same exact way) I, a CC user, am not too fond of enchanted helenes myself.
     
  22. NicotineJones

    NicotineJones New Member

    Characters with spammable attacks intercept much less frequently than characters who do not, since they have attacks to spam.
     
  23. he's saying that it helps them because you dont know if they're gonna switch at low energy or stay in so its harder to intercept them
     
  24. CardinalSmith

    CardinalSmith New Member

    thats my point, low energy beneficial move is almost essential to be able to compete, and rest is so underpowered, so it seems natural to boost it
     
  25. NicotineJones

    NicotineJones New Member

    Right, and I agree with what he's saying there. It's just that there's another piece to the puzzle, which is that characters who have spammable attacks don't intercept as much themselves.
     
  26. CardinalSmith

    CardinalSmith New Member

    they intercept less, since they got more good options. and that cant be bad. other characters need more good options, even if only not to be as predictable as they are
     
  27. NicotineJones

    NicotineJones New Member

    I agree with this, too, and another totally reasonable way to improve tanks would be to improve rest.

    The basic problem with tanks is that they have the worst movesets in the game-- they by definition have no options at one range. Not just bad options; no options. So you can either buff their movesets, which means that either they'll be absurdly dominant at close range, or you can buff the non-moves (intercept, rest) that are part of everyone's moveset.

    Or, I guess, you could improve the resistances of the tanks to make burning down those big HP pools even more daunting. That would work too.

    I agree that both Ashi and Oni are playable as it stands right now, although Helene isn't. But I don't think that any tank character can ever be tier 1 under the current ruleset.
     
  28. firewind

    firewind Member

    I'm going to jump in and disagree that spammable move does not translates into intercepts/intercepted less.

    Really, I think it's just an illusion that a lot of players get when they carelessly waste the energy going for the big attack but whiffs and get trapped in corner. Then they get frustreded with poor choices...

    Tanks and Andro are really hard to play, that's all I can say.
     
  29. Shebn

    Shebn New Member

    In order for mono-range characters to be playable, they have to win at their favored range consistently and pretty handily(unless fighting a character who is also mono-range) . I don't see any need to change the rules fundamentally. Just change the balance.

    Mono-rangers have an energy hole because they have to try and stay at their favored range in order to attack. This would be fair if dual-rangers had to stay at the mono-rangers non-favored range in order to not get brutally slammed. When this isn't true (Anex vs. Andro, CC vs. Oni, CC vs. unvalked Ashi), mono-rangers cry. Things get still worse when not only does the mono-ranger not have an advantage at his favored range but he himself actually gets brutalized at his favored range.
     
  30. angeldemonyo

    angeldemonyo New Member

    Ashi has brutal single hit attacks, and handily crushes anyone up at close range. Onimaru has a 26x2 move for 40en (35 scrolled). Helene has a shit 40 en 7x6 moves which sucks even when enchanted.

    Solution: improve helene's shit frenzy to 30 energy, or like 10x5, or make swordslash like 41 damage 30 energy, you could even remove the proc. This would allow her to 2hko CC and most other characters. Dunno if that would be OP though.
     
  31. Shebn

    Shebn New Member

    41 damage seems like a lot. Bleeding slice is top notch with only 36 damage for 30 energy. Of course, Bleeding slice is light damage, 100% and causes bleeding. But it still seems like a lot to me.
     
  32. angeldemonyo

    angeldemonyo New Member

    Bleeding is 12 damage over time. That's an overall 48 damage for 30 energy(bleeding slice). I picked 41 because, remaining physical, that is the magic number needed to ko cc in 2. Could use some tweaking I guess.

    Yeah it does seem like a lot, but helene is seriously lacking in the damage department. She needs damage, not energy. Look at ashi. She's playable because she is actually threatening with a 55 strength move that can OHKO with the stone. Same with Oni's threatening double slash(except for the ohko). Look at helene. A third of the cast isnt threatened by her flimsy nuke. Solution, buff swordslashes power, but transfer the energy proc to frenzy.
     
  33. jayelsee

    jayelsee Member

    What if Helene's enchant blade also heals 15 HP?

    If her damage sucks, she should at least be hard to kill.
     
  34. angeldemonyo

    angeldemonyo New Member

    poor rumiko. A tank with a healing move will be a complete pain in the ass. Imagine a semi juju with 85hp and 8 pdef...

    It could work though. Andromeda might have problems though if helene can outheal lightning arrow. Now we don't want to make her worse do we? Herbal + healing would make helene almost invincible to spam though.
     
  35. AWJ

    AWJ New Member

    That's the way it was in very early betas. Frenzy originally had the energy regain, while Sword Slash had a bleed proc.

    I hope the posters advocating giving Helene a healing move aren't serious. Remember 1.8 to 1.9 Anex (or Juju for that matter), folks.
     
  36. firewind

    firewind Member

    Using these items improve the rest option...
    Sacred Candle - while you rest, 50% avoid debuff
    Elusive Feather - while you rest, 25% avoid physical attack
    Healing Salve - while you rest, gain 2hp
    Herbal Remedy - while you rest, gain 3hp
    Phylactery - while you rest, if you get killed 30% to revive
    Ring of Curses - while you rest, if you get hit the opponent gets -10% hit debuff

    And using these items do not improve the rest option!
    Valkyrie's Charm
    Death Mask
    General's Insignia
    Scroll of Inner Focus
    Necronomic Tome
    Blood Vial

    And now I have go rethink using scroll on Oni myself...
     
  37. Restatement

    Restatement New Member

    I cannot believe you are serious.
     
  38. firewind

    firewind Member

    I'm serious, and I think Oni is a bad tank due to the poor item choices for support.

    Now, I'm looking for other alternative tank/item combo, something that can beat valk Ashi up close... hmm
     
  39. Twinge

    Twinge New Member

    Oni is pretty solid, and both Scroll and Salve are viable choices. Caltrops is even not too terrible. Tier 2, slaughters Yoshi, strong against Voss (slaughtered by CC, but some clever play can do well even there).
     
  40. MidKnight

    MidKnight New Member

    Yep, Oni is definetely underrated.
    He's a huge favourite against Yoshi, VV and 'half tanks' like higashi.

    And if you can yomi well, Oni can hit CC with Double Slash AT LEAST once, so matchup isn't completely hopeless.

    Obviously, you have to be really good with FiftyFifties when using tanks and sometimes risk not moving close to save that 10 energy, so using someone like anex is way easier ;/
     
  41. firewind

    firewind Member

    I agree that Oni is good with Scroll but Salve just doesn't seem to be worth it; would rather use someone with Herbal instead.

    Oni, Unbuntu, Rumiko would make an interesting deck if played properly, gotta try it out sometimes.
     
  42. Lameador

    Lameador New Member

    Why not Ashi with a critstone ? Or AshiChalice ?

    While both loose to ValkAshi and CC, they do far better againt anyone else.
     
  43. DredNicolson

    DredNicolson Active Member

    Helenicolson uses critstone nowadays. She prefers to brute force her way through resists through crits, rather than waste any turns enchanting. With some extra critrate help from Ol' Bunbut, she can be a close-range Popo.

    Dred's List of Crazy Helene Love
    Any one (and only one) of these would be welcome. Programming barriers are assumed to not exist. :rolleyes:

    Frenzied Strikes ---> 30 energy

    Frenzied Strikes ---> Natural crit chance raised to 25%.

    Shield Bash ---> 30 energy, sets range to far at end of turn (still hard interrupts).

    Sword Slash ---> Energy proc is rolled for even if the attack missed or was switched out on.

    Sword Slash ---> Natural crit chance raised to 25%.

    Enchant Blade ---> Becomes Enchant/Disenchant Blade. Instead of a limited buff, it's a permanent state that she can turn on/off at will.
     
  44. Twinge

    Twinge New Member

    So I finally got around to doing some damage comparisons for FS comapred to VV's DS and Oni's DS to get a better idea of where Helene stands. Basically right now she needs to spend an extra turn enchanting just to do the same damage as these comprable moves, with a lower hit rate than Oni's DS (not to mention the proc ability) and a higher energy cost than VV's.

    Anyway, here's what I'm thinking on Helene now:

    Helene:
    Enchant Blade duration 2 turns -> 3 turns
    Enchant Blade damage modifier +2 -> +3
    Shield Bash energy cost 50 -> 45
    Sword Slash hit rate 90% -> 95%
    Sword Slash proc changed from 30% chance of +30 energy to 50% chance of +20 energy

    This:
    * Gives her better potential damage more in line with other characters and makes enchant much more useful overall.
    * Improves the accuracy and potential energy gain from her basic Sword Slash move
    * Lets her do up to 3 shield bashes in a row at close against other tanks, or mix 2 SBs + other moves better.
    * Leaves her with an overall subpar energy curve still, as Sirlin has expressed a desire to do.

    I could also drop Frenzied Strikes's energy cost from 40 to 35 instead of increasing the EB damage, but both would be too much.
     
  45. Restatement

    Restatement New Member

    I don't think this is the right comparison. Helene is very flexible in dealing with damage types. I think if you looked at FS damage across the board, it would do very poorly when compared to peer attacks. I think it should because it is on a character that also has the potential to do good physical damage and excellent light damage.

    I think your proposed changes are good, although I think Enchant blade should remain at +2 and instead last 4 turns, allowing people to switch in someone to counter her more effectively.
     
  46. Twinge

    Twinge New Member

    The ability to deal damage in all 3 types is HIGHLY overrated. Let's look at some numbers shall we?

    Frenzied Strikes Average Damage: 22.53
    Enchanted Strikes Average Damage: 36.88
    VV Double Slash Average Damage: 33.87
    Oni Double Slash Average Damage: 45.52

    So at it's normal level, Frenzied Strikes costs 40 energy to deal about the same damage as most spammable moves do for 20 energy. Obviously it does well against some and awful against others, but against any given random opponent, it's very cost ineffective, and has a poor accuracy to boot.

    When you use your whole turn and 20 energy you lose from not resting to enchant your blade, you STILL don't come close to meeting the average damage of Oni's more reliable Double Slash that costs the same energy and also has a chance to prevent the opponent from going far. So you just lost a turn to make your power move still do less damage than a similar-level tank's power move, with more variance (less hit rate, lower base attack number means it's stilla wful against some opponents).

    If we go ahead and boost enchanted to +3, the average damage goes up to:

    New Helene Enchanted Frenzied Strikes Average Damage: 42.09

    Which is *still* not even up to Double Slash levels (but it is faster). So at this point you're using a turn and a potential 20 energy lost from not resting to still do less damage than a comprable tank and do garbage damage against a few characters (VV, Yoshi, Anex), but with the advantage of being better against some opponents (Popo, Tafari, Rumiko, Onimaru, Helene) and being faster. Worth noting is that Frenzied Strkes is also FAR more suceptible to Blood Burn.


    So even with these changes, I'd personally prefer to use the old Oni than the new Helene, but I at least wouldn't cry as much geting her in Random. Looking at this some more right now, I'm pretty sure we can safely boost FS back up to speed 8 in addition to the above changes. Basically, throwing away a turn to enchant is pretty huge, so it shouldn't still be awful after you do so.


    (*Damage figures do not account for certain outlier factors such as Oni's critica hit immunity)
     
  47. Shebn

    Shebn New Member

    Using average damage is not the correct way to analyze this. Since multiplicative attacks are so reliant on resistance (or lack thereof), you should only use them against characters with low resistance.

    For example, imagine an attack that does 3X30 light damage. The average resistance is greater than two, so the average damage for this attack is quite low. However, the attack would only be used against characters with 0 or maybe 1 light resist. So the attack would be more powerful than average damage would suggest. I don't think kongai needs an attack like this since it's too good against some characters and useless against others. I'm just making the point that average damage is not the right way to analyze this.

    More generally, an attack should be analyzed not based on how good it is against the average character but rather based on how many characters it is good against. In order for a character to be good, s/he needs to have good options against most enemies and/or fair options against all enemies. That doesn't mean all options should be good against all enemies.

    Having said this, Helene needs a buff. I think that good lists of possible buffs have been made and I don't have anything fresh to add to that list. I think the idea of on/off enchant is cool.
     
  48. Restatement

    Restatement New Member

    Shebn covered what I was thinking, so instead I will just provide some numbers.
    My numbers are different than Twinge's, but they're in the same ballpark and so will serve to illustrate the issue:
    Frenzied does on average 24.9 damage
    Sword Slash does on average 25.98 (awkwardly taking into account dodge rates)

    If Helene uses a mix of Frenzied and Sword slash, her average damage isn't somewhere between 24.9 and 26 damage, it's 31.2 because she gets to be more selective; we stop assuming she's going to use FS on CC. Her energy expenditure obviously also improves.

    Helene has problems, but we don't need to exaggerate them by creating a strawman out of Frenzied Strikes by assuming she's using it even when her other options make more sense.

    Make FS and SS 95% accuracy. Change the proc to a 50% chance of 20 energy. Make enchant +2 damage for 3 or 4 turns.

    She still does less damage than Oni on most characters (unless she enchants), but spends less energy and has the option of a good interrupt.
     
  49. strunks

    strunks New Member

    Totally agree that average damage of a move is not the right way to analyze. It only considers the move in a vacuum and ignores all other options a character has. Why would Helene even consider using Frenzy vs anyone with 3 or more dark resist, when she has Sword Slash as an option? This goes back to balancing characters vs balancing moves. FS is not even Helen's main move. Sword Slash is.

    The fact that Sword Slash exists puts a floor on the damage Helene deals per turn. Instead of FS for 6 vs CC, she would SS for 27. Repeat this for all the other high dark resist characters and her average damage goes up quite a bit. Damage type versatility, though situational, does have its advantages sometimes.

    So she can deal at least decent damage vs anybody with either SS or FS. And she can deal high damage (2-hit kill) vs some of the more fragile high tier characters (VV, Yoshi, Anex). But decent damage doesn't cut it when she has energy problems and is also mono-range.

    Any character that is monorange requires energy efficient moves to compensate. The fix to Helene depends on what kind of character she's supposed to be. If you want her to be more consistent, buff hit-rate and/or SS. If you want her to be powerful but high-variance, buff FS. Something in between? Buff everything a little bit.

    In my opinion, we already have someone who is powerful and high-variance: Ashi. So Helene should be more consistent/versatile so she needs a much improved energy game while leaving her damage at a medium level.

    SS Cost: 30 -> 25
    SS Proc: 30% chance of +30 Energy -> 50% chance of +30

    This lets her Move Close -> SS -> Move Close -> SS if the first SS procs. If the 2nd SS also procs, then she'll have 50 energy remaining. If not, she'll have only 20 energy left and she's spent. If this sounds too strong, keep in mind SS only hits 90%. If this still sounds too strong, lower SS damage.

    I don't mind FS at 40 energy and SB at 50 energy if SS is given the extra energy gain buff. They are situational moves. She can attempt to use them more than once in a row if she Yomi's a pass.

    Yes this gives her a pretty cheap move in SS, but it's not really a cheap move if you have to Move into it.

    I think this gives her the feel of a more intelligent armored knight, as opposed to a relentless barbarian (Ashi).
     
  50. Protectorez

    Protectorez New Member

    I think that the simplest and most effective way to "fix" Helene would be just to change frenzied strikes to light magic and replace enchant blade with something that makes her sword dark magic. Helene has two main problems, being a mono ranger, and being unable to considerably hurt any character with high dark magic resistance without an enchant blade. This automatically forces her to waste one move in order to even threaten one of these characters, and then of course she must change ranges to attack. She is sure to take a lot of hits enchanting and she is not even guaranteed to get a hit off if she can get close. Frenzied strikes should remain 7x6 but to just start at light magic. She can kill both CC and Tafari with 2 regular frenzied strikes (two characters she is a terrible match-up against). This will even slightly yelp Yoshiro against her because she can no longer two hit him. The new move will make her move 9x6 dark but I feel like it must be used more strategically because so many characters have high dark magic. This also helps the fact that it only lasts two turns, because you do not want a dark magic multiplier to last too long because someone else may switch in. Finally, any characters with high light magic are vulnerable to physical so she is rarely left without a somewhat damaging attack. This can not make her too powerful, she is a mono ranger which will always be her main weakness. A combination to only having one range and having to waste an attack to simply get a light magic blade makes her very difficult to win with.
     

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