Interest in a Witchhunt/Mafia/Werewolf Forum Game?

Discussion in 'Forum Games' started by Chocolate Pi, Jun 30, 2010.

  1. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    So, here are two things I am noticing about spectators:

    -They seem to underestimate the restrictions of having 1 kill per turn and needing to play around stuff like GAs and nighttime abilities
    -Their models of how the game "should" behave seems to assume too much reliable information, which is incorrect assuming witches who have any idea how to lie
     
  2. ryzol

    ryzol Member

    Proposed rule addition:
    When lovers die their writeup cannot mention anyone other than their lover. Otherwise if I was say the spy and got lover ganked I could do something like "Oh first I met TMK, and then I fell in love with x1372. After him I fell for ChadMiller, and Mr. Yellow. But then I found out they were dirty witches so I broke up with them and found my true love cwheezy"
     
  3. sage

    sage Well-Known Member

    I want to play next game, heh.

    Hey question about Cupid, it doesn't say on the card anything about 'other' players. Can you choose yourself to be a lover?
    Also couldn't spy be allievated a bit with an extra junior witch? (maybe takes more players to support or something, what's the minimum number of players to have a spy?)
     
  4. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    Spy always exists. I think the numbers in the cards in the OP are a rough indicator of how likely a role is to be include (as in, lower numbers are more likely to be used)
     
  5. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    I think they go sequentially? So if it's 9 player game, use the cards 1-9
     
  6. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    Pi has hinted using some kind of discretion in some cases, but yeah if there's an algorithm I'm sure that's it
     
  7. sage

    sage Well-Known Member

    Hmm. There are a bunch of interesting roles in larger games. Hope we'll get a bigger turnout (or possibly shuffle some roles in/out?) for next game.

    CPi, how has Spy gone over in the past?
     
  8. Wobberjacky

    Wobberjacky Well-Known Member

    If spy "reveals" himself early, he's probably dooming the townies to death by werewolf. I believe CPi explained the consequences in detail in an earlier post.
     
  9. jiaflu

    jiaflu Member

    That seems a bit counterproductive, no? Unless you are very ambitious trying to go for an exclusive win...

    If you link yourself with someone else, one townie minimum will always die, whereas, you could have potentially up to 2 scum deaths when not linking yourself.

    -edit-
    If an immune person was pinged at night by witches (say Barkeep in the right phase, or Survivalist with still both "lives"), will the general public know that there was an attempted attack or no?
     
  10. Mr. Yellow

    Mr. Yellow Member

    First time playing mafia type game and starting as a witch was an uncomfortable experience. Not sure i'd like to try more of this.

    Also, the reason why i didn't fakeclaim spy nor the other roles was because i thought people wouldn't believe me as well as running the risk of being counterclaimed.
    Why i took werewolf was because my play so far then looked suspiciously like werewolf play, make it like a honest surrender. However, the claim (which was to respond to Sotek) was supposed to happen before Xnumbers (to throw away some heat of him) got lynched and i was in bed at that time i thought it out, so i just claimed anyway in annoyance.

    Next thing were that CWheezy would then get killed, taking me with him and so would never know if i fakeclaimed or not. That way Chad would still have a chance. But then i thought of what would happen if Chad got lynched anyway, meaning link would remain in the witchchat having full power of night kills, giving the JW no chance at all. Not to mention what the GA would do. In the end i just went with lynching link anyway.

    Looking at it now, it was an insane and most certainly stupid claim to make. But at that point, with the reveal and all, i wanted to go out doing something crazy.
     
  11. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    Don't worry Yellow, all my bitching makes me sound madder than I really am (this is a persistent trait of mine both IRL and online). The only thing that really set me over the edge was making that claim at the exact time you did without checking witch chat first. I mean, the lynch was over but the GA vote was not, and we almost had to kill link to prevent spy deadlock in the coven no matter what our longer term plan looked like. I know you're in a weird time zone and that couldn't have helped either.

    Really, I would not have gone into total meltdown if we didn't all manage to die in a row like that. =P
     
  12. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    BTW, here is a hilarious alternate plan for you if we didn't kill link: Tell the JW never to come out, leaving just link in the nighttime vote. A JW/Spy endgame is a win for the witches, even if JW never joins the coven, so then it becomes JW's job to trick link into killing everyone else. That plan would fail the instant the Survivalist failed to die to the nighttime vote though.
     
  13. Chocolate Pi

    Chocolate Pi Well-Known Member

    Expect an epic dissection of Game 1 tonight.
     
  14. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Spy is not broken. A thing I noticed but didn't say is that the Spy does not need to reveal, and if he survives long enough he can control the witch vote. Seems like he needs to convince the other witches that someone else is the spy to get there, though.
     
  15. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    It also seems like the larger the game the less power the spy has, but that's just an outside opinion.

    With such a small group it seems easy to come out as the spy, there's not a lot of room for people to discredit the spy, and its relatively easy to out the JW and WW afterwards.
     
  16. Sotek

    Sotek Super Moderator Staff Member

    As soon as you confirm the GAs are actually voting for the guy-who-makes-town-win-if-he-stays-alive-tonight? >P

    sdfdsfds SO IMPATIENT HERE :<
     
  17. sage

    sage Well-Known Member

    dayscene is up also GIPTYVM
     
  18. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    dun dun dunnnnnnnnn. I'm super curious what the night result means.

    There's only one suspected JW-person left alive? Why lynch the only other JW suspect if so? Is it lynch and game over or is someone playing everyone for a fool?

    I have my guess, but who knows what's the truth anymore!
     
  19. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    icewolf33: if i join next game
    icewolf33: i will have to find some siteblocker
    Benoit Haché: lol
    icewolf33: that stops me from spending all my time on forums during workday
    Benoit Haché: I want to play I want to play~
    Sotek: rotfl.
    ChadMiller: there's some firefox extension that does that
    sage: work is underway on advanced forum technology that will help you guys not almost divulge tactical information in talkinator
     
  20. ryzol

    ryzol Member

    If you wanted to add a 28th character, I think an interesting ability would be the ability to mask someone's alignment. Maybe a witch that on certain moons causes the alignment checks to reverse for that night.
     
  21. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    You have one hour, mister
     
  22. sage

    sage Well-Known Member

    Okay, seeking feedback on witch emote chat and playing as werewolf.
     
  23. Chocolate Pi

    Chocolate Pi Well-Known Member

    I posted my thoughts in the game thread. I'll start planning the sequel tomorrow, I'm beat. Gotta get up and tutor a middle schooler in math; data, variables, and formulas.

    In other words, we're planning his Pokemon team.

    Best tutoring ever.
     
  24. Sotek

    Sotek Super Moderator Staff Member

    aaaaaargh damn you! Well, maybe if I go to sleep soon you'll have posted something by the time I'm free to do stuff. Hmm.
     
  25. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    Ill be in 10
     
  26. Zejety

    Zejety Well-Known Member

    That's what I wanted everyone to think ^^
     
  27. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    I'm not sure if this is the place for it, but I want to repeat my thoughts on spy from SirlinChat. Put simply, 1st turn spy reveal is a strong play if you do not expect to significantly outplay your opponents in the game. The key is that the spy does not have any incentive to live after revealing witches UNLESS he somehow lives to see JW enter coven or outlives all but one other witch member to deadlock witchvote. But neither of these is likely to happen often anyway.

    Say someone claims spy, and someone counterclaims. They both claim to reveal 4 witches. The Spy's list is naturally:

    Witch1
    Witch2
    Witch3
    Witch4

    Let's say Witch1 is fakespy. Witch1 naturally includes the spy as a witch, then has to decide how much overlap he should have with the actual spy's list. For now let's say that Witch1 decides on no overlap, so that his list is:

    Spy
    Townie1
    Townie2
    Townie3

    OK, now remaining villagers say: "someone who is accused and not important, reveal your role now." Survivalist, Cupid or Acolyte is ideal here, since survivalist survives a lynch and nun can scan to see if Acolyte/Cupid is lying. However, Barkeep and Camper are also fine. If no one wants to claim, it means that fakespy has happened to pick some combo of bishop, priest, non-wheezy DOB, JW and werewolf. If JW/werewolf are both named, this is probably good for town in the long run. If this is not the case, it is pretty awful for town. However, the chance of 2+ important roles being named without an unimportant townie role is, by my calculations:

    (5 choose 3 - 3 )/ (11 choose 3) = 4.2%

    So this is probably acceptable risk.

    Let's say someone on List A claims Barkeep. There are now 3 options:

    1) No one counterclaims. OK, now you can lynch list B.
    2) Someone not named on either list counterclaims. OK, now you lynch the Barkeep claimer from list A. Either you have found the Spy's list, or you have unwittingly found the JW/werewolf that fakespy just happened to name.

    What if Werewolf counterclaims here, to fuck with town? We lose an unimportant townie. However, this is bad for him since witches now know his identity (once JW enters coven) and D.O.B will now autotarget counterclaimer just in case (OK not always, there is some yomi involved. Optimal rate is probably something like 50% target counterclaimer). But yeah, if Werewolf wants to kingmake at the expense of his own win % then he can.

    What if JW counterclaims here? Same thing, D.O.B maybe autotargets counterclaimer as insurance until told otherwise. Priest scans a remaining member on fakespy's list, and humans find out JW is lying on day 3. Townies have GA vote majority and protect priest to end game.

    3) Someone on list B counterclaims. They are probably lying. However, there is a small chance (3 in 11) that a witch on list A claimed and got lucky. Lynch the person on list B who counterclaimed. In the unlikely worst case scenario, you have lynched an unimportant townie (haha Survivalist). If we lynch at random, we have 9/15 chance of lynching town (and they could be priest/bishop), so reducing that % to a 3/11 chance is huge.

    OK, now let's say there IS overlap between list A and B. At first I thought best play was to lynch guaranteed witches while priest scans. But then I thought of an even better idea. DO THE SAME THING as if there was no overlap, before the witches get a chance to night kill. The difference is that now witches have an even smaller chance of guessing a correct role. The disadvantage is that the chance of fakespy randomly picking some combination of bishop, priest, non-wheezy DOB, JW and werewolf (and NOT picking JW and werewolf, which would be lol) goes up to 16%. But this is still probably acceptable risk for town. It might be better to move Bishop into "not important category" here, since the witches aren't all that interested in killing him (bishop can't find JW, and witches will be so behind at this point that they need to find and kill DOB).

    Sotek suggested a hypothetical scenario where there were 3 claimers. I am pretty sure that it can be gamed in a similar fashion to what I've gone over here, but this post is long enough already. To wrap things up, this seems like a very strong method that is probably much better than the spy staying silent and just randomly lynching someone T1.

    Oh, also I'd be interested in another game of witchhunt, if that wasn't already bleedingly obvious. :D
     
  28. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

    I forget, why are you even bothering to check the fake reveal.

    Spy reveal right away, and ignore all other claims, as either witches or werewolf.

    Seems easy to me.

    the Fakeclaim has to lie, every witch has to lie to get out of it.

    Any fakeclaims that happen, shouldn't sway any townies, should be easy to get a majority and kill the witches.

    I would gamble on the holy people on my team being able to scan the werewolf before the full moon
     
  29. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    In practice you are right; fake reveal is usually the second one. In theory everyone plays optimally and 1st spy reveal is just as likely as 2nd.
     
  30. Zejety

    Zejety Well-Known Member

    I might be unable to read the forums again today. I've just wanted to say that I will to join the 2nd game, too.
     
  31. Sotek

    Sotek Super Moderator Staff Member

    And on the DOB not getting nightkilled, since otherwise you have nothing to kill him with ...
     
  32. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    Because if t1 spy reveal is so good, so is t1 preemptive fake reveal. Why is this hard?
     
  33. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    Chad, fakereveal will put half town on notice.

    You fakereveal

    Priest will know you are lying, Acolyte will trust priest, so thats two, you have spy against you, thats 3.

    Everyone you accuse know you are lying, thats 4,5,6,7.

    Spy will name the 4 witches, witches have to claim roles, now everybody that is the role claimed now you are lying, 891011. Against you.

    Nun will scan first day all accused people of holy, if she find you accused one holy she will know that you are lying 12
    OK, ok, there will be some overlaps.

    Still faking, will already put something like 6-7 people against you and knwo you are lying, thats enough to wipe all witches.
    The only thing you can do is kill priest first day. If by day 2 priest is alive, you are fucked.

    EDIT: Also in your fakeclaim, there is the chance you name Survivalist, werewolf or DOB. If they somehow believe you, and they kill them, as soon as they do, they know you are fake. There are SOOOOO many ways to realize you are fake thats not funny

    With current rules, To be honest, i dont see how Town do not have a huge advantage, standard rules, i think the same. Ive checked many rules, in all town seem to have an overwhelming advantage. OR at least Witches seem to be horrible position. The only one that seem to have some ok chances is the werewolf, who indicentally his chances of winning do not seem related on how well werewolf play but how much witches want to help him.

    It seem witches chances rely on 4 factors
    -Randomly killing priest first day
    -Spy being a moron
    -Lucky lovers
    -amazingly good play by JW.
     
  34. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    Wheezy claims no town needs to role reveal because "omg spy reveal is always right." Do we at least agree that part is simple failure to think things through?

    Not that this matters much, the "sequel" refers to our rebalancing efforts that partly exist just to make t1 spy reveal fail to even look optimal because I think that's necessary for the game to work in a large group...
     
  35. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    Spy reveleaing is good period, always good. And fake reveal is usless there is no counter.
    Games are going to be this simple, spy reveals, JW tries to survive, and somehow they try to find werewolf.
    Thats how games are going to be.

    Really im trying to look the game in witches eyes, so what im going to do as witch when spy reveal in first turn, im thinking on fakespy revealing myself. But no matter what i plan it seems to seem like swizz cheese of holes. IT wont work. Maybe if withces could talk to each other and make a super extra, incredible advance plan, they can win, but they still rely on amazing JW playing. With no way to coordinate movemnsts between witches, all fakeclaims will fail.

    What i agree though is that is not neccesary to revela T1. If you see the town voing a witch you dont nee to reveal, as soon as you see the town is going to kill an innocent, you reveal, period.

    Maybe You are right that Fakeclaim is still the best move for witches, it doesnt mean its a play that is going to give any significant chances to win for them
     
  36. Sotek

    Sotek Super Moderator Staff Member

    Note that when witches are pressed to claim roles, they will almost automatically claim stuff like priest and aco, which helps reduce the number of people automatically against them.
     
  37. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    So, thinking about this further...unless fakespy is lucky and names both priest and aco at the same time, this seems pretty doomed. Witch can't name priest/acolyte unless another witch names the other because the real acolyte and priest will both call him on it. If either of the real priest/aco isn't on either list than the jig is up.

    Which brings me to another point. Even if witches can claim t1 spy claim with t1 fake claim, the amount of skill required to pull off the fake claim is waaaay higher than the amount of skill required for spy to lolclaim. And the witches can't talk to each other, and even with full witch chat that will be true day 1. All of this points to the need to nerf t1 spy reveal even if it is a suboptimal play theoretically, because there is just too much incentive for a spy to ruin the game even if he isn't consciously trying to grief.
     
  38. Milskidasith

    Milskidasith Active Member

    Full witch spy chat + Young Witch = JW becomes significantly more powerful.
     
  39. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    yeah...ironically one of the problems with full witch chat is that without some drastic changes, spy dies turn 1 way too much NOT to reveal turn 1. Even if that's somehow balanced, it's super lame for any scum who isn't JW.
     
  40. Milskidasith

    Milskidasith Active Member

    So on night 1 with full witch chat, isn't the best move to have everybody roleclaim and kill whoever roleclaims the same role? Especially with buffed assassin, your worst case case scenario still leads to you getting the spy dead night 1 every single time.
     
  41. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    Come to think of it, maybe this could be its own thread, possibly in the Game Design forum? I think I'm going to go post it actually.
     
  42. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    Correct. With proposed assassin power of "can kill 1 coven member at night for free, once per game," there is no way for Spy not to die night one (EDIT: Unless town lynches assassin d1, or another witch is lynched and spy guesses dead witch's role) given a full list of witch roles. This is true whether spy reveals or not, so spy always reveals.
     
  43. Milskidasith

    Milskidasith Active Member

    I would strongly suggest not having full witch chat then; the only way to have both is if we have multiple vanillitches.
     
  44. icewolf34

    icewolf34 Well-Known Member

    I still think full witchchat is much less fun than limited witchchat.

    Limited witchchat is coordinating with fellow witches on the fly, hiding messages in public communication, improvising defense when accused.

    Full witchchat rewards extensive contingency planning at night, coordinated messaging, may create witch roleclaim problem.

    Would it be fun to have some roles randomly selected? Like maybe Witches randomly get 2 out of the roles Warlock, Necromancer, Young (not Junior!) Witch, townies get 2 out of the roles Camper, Barkeep, Vampire Hunter or something.
     
  45. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    http://forums.sirlin.net/showthread.php?t=3820

    Not being able to communicate with teammates is not the least bit fun when so many townies have so much information for free. Witches already have to lie on the fly during the day because night chat only happens in between days; add on top of that no ability to plan whatsoever and it sucks.

    My fun level skyrocketed when I decided I could just give up on trying to hide my witch status and started giving advice to Zejety openly in-thread.
     
  46. koopatroop

    koopatroop Well-Known Member

    I agree with this and I posted earlier on the probability of townies winning going up when everyone reveals turn 1. I'll post a more detailed discussion of game design.

    It is important to discuss this because we may be missing something about the game since the designer sees things completely differently.
     
  47. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

    Because everyone who plays the game isn't going to spy reveal.
     
  48. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    Sorry, but I'm not going to bother to argue with a position of "X's strategy is obvious, but X's teammates should assume their opponents won't use that strategy's equally obvious counterstrategy."
     
  49. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    But I think pi is basing a lot of the stuff on live play.

    I could see live play t1 reveal being worse. With all sorts of fake claims and other mayhem going around it may be harder to logically connect everything together and follow through.

    With forums that spy reveal post is always there to look back at.

    Imagine in live play you had 3 people all spy-claim and all reveal 6 spies. That's a lot of information to accurately remember as you try and figure out who's able to verify what on which lists and so on.
     
  50. ffff

    ffff New Member

    I haven't played a mafia-type game online yet, but if the spy is combined with another role (devil or something) would that let full witch chat work? The spy would have a role to tell the witches ("I'm the devil!") but is still the spy.
     

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