Kongai Tournament - Sign up

Discussion in 'Kongai virtual card game' started by MinusDriver, Jun 17, 2008.

  1. MinusDriver

    MinusDriver New Member

    http://www.kongregate.com/forums/1/topics/11634

    TheSilenT,

    A few people and I have talked about having a Kongai tournament, so I’ve decided to try and make one. Here are the rules for anyone interested:

    -Double Elimination Rules. This is to kill some of the luck factor. 2 losses and you’re out. One loss and you drop to the lower bracket.

    -No card restrictions. Use whomever you want, even random. Hopefully the 1.8 patch will be before the start date, so more of the balancing issues will be taken care of.

    -Only those above level 5 will be admitted. Sorry, this is just to prevent a huge bracket and an endless tournament. You simply need to be level 6 by the time you sign up here.

    -Seeds will go by Win/Loss ratio.

    -In case of a disconnect, a player may claim unintentional disconnect if their opponent agrees, and only once per match. The match will be replayed if the opponent allows it.

    -The tournament will be held from 5:00PM to 8:00PM EST on June 28th. Make sure you can be online.

    -As of now, there is no prize other than pride, but that may change if this gains popularity.

    Sign up ends on June 25th at 12:00 PM noon EST. The first 64 people above level 5 to sign up here will be added to the bracket. If all 64 spots are full, an additional 5 will be also allowed and will take the place of any no shows.

    Good luck to all who participate.
  2. x1372

    x1372 Active Member

    Sure, what the heck. This should be fun.
  3. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Seeding by win/loss ratio is probably worse than random considering all the losses that actually testing the game produces. Also, it would reward people who manipulate win/losses ratios, such as someone with 7,700 mysterious wins like minusdriver. ;)

    Maybe random seeding is better for a first tournament?
  4. TheSilenT

    TheSilenT New Member

    Hey, thanks minus for bringing it up here.

    Also, Sirlin, it's still in beta, so abusing the system to farm wins is pretty hard. And with random draws, the best people might end up picking each other off early, leaving a champ who just got lucky in the draw.
  5. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    I had a similar thought, my skill rank is 19 but my w:l is 198:139. =D
  6. TheSilenT

    TheSilenT New Member

    Actually, now that I think of it, random draws saves me a LOT of work in gathering everyone's records, then finding their Win/Loss and putting it in Access. It's still the first day, so this sounds cool.

    Also, I came up with a cool way to make sure no one pulls a fast one in reporting matches, in case there is a dispute. I'll screen shot everyone's records during the time they're played, and then look at them after.
  7. NorthernPolarity

    NorthernPolarity New Member

    I think if this gains popularity, you could probably convince the kongregate staff members to have a free card as a reward, since it looks well directed :D
  8. PeteyC

    PeteyC New Member

    Sounds like fun. Sadly, I'll be traveling that weekend and won't be able to compete, but good luck and I hope to compete in future tournaments if it works out.
  9. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    TheSilenT: your comments make it sound like you believe Minusdriver has NOT "farmed wins" to get to over 7,700, heh. I think it's pretty clear something fishy is going on there. Not that I actually care, but again it points to win/loss ratio being a suspect stat.
  10. TheSilenT

    TheSilenT New Member

    minusdriver: 523 wins, 216 losses, 2.4212 ratio

    Currently 5th best in ratio out of the 17 people I got records from when I was doing seeds, below Northern, Xanthus, myself and x1372. Not ragging on him (like you are :p), but if he did farm, I wonder what his record was before :rolleyes:
  11. thegersh

    thegersh New Member

    Silent:

    Sirlin is referring to the borken Win counts on the Kongregate high scores....which seem to count wins by some mysterious formula the likes of which may never be known.
  12. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    thegersh: yes. I am referring to minusdriver having more than 7,700 wins, not 523 wins. I guess there are different places to get these numbers from which is part of the confusion in this thread.
  13. smuglapse

    smuglapse New Member

    hey, I would like to join the tourney, assuming you get it going :)
  14. jiaflu

    jiaflu Member

    I think for future tournaments, seeding by rank points is probably the best way to go about it, since that ranking is relatively unrigged. Cap it at like 800 minimum. It was a randomish number - red is 3 points away, so it seemed reasonable =P

    It creates a certain amount of work for the tournament host - you have to friend all the participants to check for ranked ratings. Reporting matches seems like a pain in the ass too. I would set ground rules as winner reports. Also, winner is responsible for taking a screenshot of the win with Game Log tab showing (you can click it even after the Win message pops up), but no need to show screenshot unless there is dispute.
  15. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Here's a random fact for you. Will Street Fighter players exploit every possible thing they can? Answer: yes. But in all the online Street Fighter tournaments I've ever heard of, not one time ever has there been a dispute about both players reporting that they won. I guess it's just too ridiculous to try to cheat that way. The hassle of requiring proof or screenshots is probably not needed.

    Of course, it would be better if there were an actual tournament system in the game itself, but I bet you can go pretty low tech here and get away with it.
  16. TheSilenT

    TheSilenT New Member

    smuglapse: I added you. Welcome and have fun in the tournament!

    jiaflu: I thought about doing rank points, but there a great deal of people who don't play ranked matches at all, and it would be silly to have like 30 16 seeds. It's not too much work for me, either, I was planning on doing it with records, too, with the added step of putting it into the calculator to find the ratio. It might work in the future, though, so I might take your advice next month.

    Sirlin: Yeah, I'm going on reports first and foremost, but at least I have a system to fall back on now. I'll go by the "Winner and loser both report the match in the lobby in the *Winner/Loser* format." Also, it's not the players that need the screen shot, I will be the one doing it on the browse matches page, with the stats of each tourney game open.

    Oh yeah, and 64+ people will be online at once playing in addition to the regular amount... will I be crashing the servers? :p
  17. MinusDriver

    MinusDriver New Member

    Sniff no love.

    I have no idea how the win score tab works obviously 1 on score tab does not stand for 1 win. So the all time wins 7731 is NOT actually 7,731 wins its 520 wins. So I guess 1 win is like 15 pts per? I've asked Emily and she has mentioned its not working as intended at the moment... obviously. Other people like Silent are only at like 1500 with same amount of wins so. No idea. Although, I know people like Rhine and Gersh had tons of games played before the score tab. So they may have around same wins/losses as me if not more but not listed. I've just played a ton since Jim released the game live and been playing a lot since then. Nice thing about work just play Kongai all day :p

    I am looking forward to the tournament. :)
  18. TheSilenT

    TheSilenT New Member

    Closed it at 32 due to time and participation concerns. 3 reserve spots still open. Brackets are up and visible.
  19. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    Minusdriver:

    The more you win in a day, the more points you get. That's what i've noticed at least.
  20. Milskidasith

    Milskidasith Active Member

    The win system itself is broken and weird. And I still don't think any minimum requirements for a tournament are really necessary, but that seems to be only my opinion.
  21. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    EsIeX3's tourney predictions, assuming everybody shows up:

    Round 1 matches:
    17: Redemnity vs ?????
    18: Automqatiqpylot vs NorthernPolarity
    19: X1372 vs TheSilent
    20: Smuglapse vs Chadmiller
    21: Jasey vs EsIeX3
    22: ihatethiswebsite vs Xanthus (i'm iffy on this one)
    23: ???? vs minusdriver
    24: gerrefi vs ???? (iffy on this one too)

    Round 2 matches:
    25: Redenmity vs NorthenPolarity
    26: X1372 vs Chadmiller
    27: EsIeX3 vs Xanthus (i'm iffy on who's going to win #22)
    28: minusdriver vs ??? (i dunno who's going to win 24)

    Round 3 Matches:
    29: Redenmity vs x1372
    30: EsIeX3 vs minusdriver

    Round 4 Match:
    31: Redenmity vs ???? (Honestly, i dunno if minus > me or me > minus)

    The rest, i don't have a clue.
  22. TheSilenT

    TheSilenT New Member

    Wow, you think x1372 is going to beat me and Chad? He's good, but I dunno. We'll see :p. Also, it's double elim, so even the ones you had losing in the first round could come back.
  23. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    Yeah, i dunno about that one. Now that i think about it, you probably will beat x1372 because you've been closer to beating me before.
  24. TheSilenT

    TheSilenT New Member

    Your Girdle Corny just wrecks my shit. I think it wrecks everyone. I wish I had him and Ashi. Ashi is a strait upgrade form Helene in almost every way, and Corny is just plain broken to hell.
  25. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    Yeah, my girdle corny does wreck your shit. Oh wait, i don't even have a girdle :p

    Who are you talking about?
  26. TheSilenT

    TheSilenT New Member

    Hmm? Oh dammit, that was minus I think. Who did you have again?

    Not telling me, huh? :p
  27. Nicol Bolas

    Nicol Bolas New Member

    I would prefer to play my match in advance too.
  28. TheSilenT

    TheSilenT New Member

    Um, Nicol, you don't technically have a match yet :p

    You will once I figure out who's not here, but for now, just hang tight.
  29. redenmity

    redenmity New Member

    oh crap... me in the final's ... lemme explain my tourney luck to you guys. first round loss, second round loss ... out. that's about all you'll get from me... :( but i really appreciate the nice prediction :D i hate being built up as something then getting squashed ... this is gunna suck.
  30. Xanthus

    Xanthus New Member

    I'm looking forward to playing everyone while they want to win badly (well, not that badly, but at least some motivation), I know from other games that that probably gives high quality matches with different decisions than normally.

    Still nine days eh? Looks like you actually could have planned the tournament for this saturday. Although now we can indeed have anticipation, EsIeX3 predicting owning me np, and some more time to practice ;)
  31. NorthernPolarity

    NorthernPolarity New Member

    Me lose to redenmity? But I have the better w/l ratio! Obviously the guy with the better ratio = win.
  32. I assume you mean above skill rank 5, not level 5, since there can be no level 5s in beta... unless you're Koogy or Sirlin, or (almost) me, since I got in at level 8.

    Speaking of technicalities, I'd love if:

    (A) I can participate in the tournament despite my lack of skill rank 6. (Perhaps you can have a secret, "if you're below level 13 or if you have over 10 Kongregate posts with a word count above 500, you can particpate in the tournament" clause. Fair, not going to let in a whole lot of people, and inclusive of me. ;) And in case that wink makes you think I'm kidding: I'm not, ha.)

    (B) I can perhaps have my match in advance at a time that isn't 4AM, my time (GMT+10, Australia). If that's not possible, you'll need to get back to me (PM me here or shout or whisper me on Kong is a good way to get my attention.)

    * * *​

    I understand these are semi-unreasonable terms, but my participation in this tournament would be helpful to me in offering better game feedback, since tournaments are something I'm leaning towards advocating in some way. I'll probably go ahead and advocate it even without Kongai tournament experience, but the experience could help.

    Also, you could fit me into some cancellation brakets, or something, if fitting me in isn't ideal. But then having my matches in advance wouldn't work so well. I don't expect to win this tournament, but winning a few matches is within my capabilities. This new 1.8 changelist is going to throw me a bit, but oh well.

    I could have some tournament that doesn't start at 4AM, my time, it wouldn't have all of you guys in it, probably, meaning it wouldn't be much of a tournament. We could have a more timezone friendly "sign up, have a match in advance" tournament, but alas, then you lose the awesome social experience that comes with a tournament (mostly).
  33. I know most of you guys are in the US, but I really do wish Americans (and yes, I'm singling Americans out; you'll live) would refer to their timezones in GMT or UTC (same thing) rather than using your country-specific time zones.

    You using EST is like me saying, "the tournament starts at 8:00PM AEST" -- nobody really knows what the hell you're talking about, heh.

    If you use GMT, at least you can figure out the time difference because there's a number there to work it out from. Plus, it's more universal.

    An awesome GMT converter:

    http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/gmt-converter.htm

    If I wanted to, I could farm wins pretty easily. (Especially in beta, since I can identify who's new to the game not just by win:loss ratios, but by the level. Low level = newly invited.) I'd have a lot more cards, too.

    Tempting, but no, praying on people who don't know how to play the game is not the solution for earning more cards. As the card unlock advocate, I probably should not go that route by principle, but then I could go the peaceful protest route and show that the "farm newbies" option isn't ideal. But that's not my style; I walk a different path.
  34. I highly advise you report wins and losses in a forum thread here in Sirlin's forums, not in the lobby.

    Save me from explaining why and just trust me.

    (Screen shots sounds fine and reasonable to me, though.)
  35. TheSilenT

    TheSilenT New Member

    I meant Kongai level 5, which is 50 or so wins, and this was to prevent 1,000 level 1s from singing up. Also, I can find those who have played more generally more reliable. The next tournament will not have a level minimum, but this one had random draws, so there's no way I'll add that to the formula.

    Sorry, the tournament is already closed. I opened the 5 reserve spots to anyone of any level, but they filled up already. Wait for the next one in July, it's going to be bigger, better, and have a great prize.


    To the entire first half of that: why can't you convert EST yourself? I could go by GMT, but I think you're the one being unreasonable, not Americans. To the second half: there's a difference between what you said and what I said. I'm referring to people having duplicate beta invited accounts and constantly forfeiting to their main. cyto is the most notorious example of this. What you said, about beating up new people, is part of the game, and is still a win in my book. You're playing more, so you're getting better.

    Also, geez, I'm getting criticism left and right on every board.
  36. thegersh

    thegersh New Member

    Why are you getting criticism?

    1) You are entered in your own tournament.
    2) You limited the tournament to 32 people.
    3) Some people take the tournament more serious than it should be.
  37. TheSilenT

    TheSilenT New Member

    Fine, then I'll back out >_>

    I originally didn't want to play in it, but EsIeX convinced me, and someone else said I was in the top 10 in rank so I should feel obligated to play.
  38. I thought I'd mention first off that I wasn't critising you in my post, even if it sounded like I was. You could say I was pointing out the flaws of your ideas, but that wouldn't be accurate, either.

    I'm intensely optimistic, so if I see that something can be potentially improved, I like to point out suggestions and share my perspective if I feel it's useful.

    Unfortunately I don't think many people will really "get" that and will just see criticsm unless they share a similar personality type to myself.

    Overall, just relax (which doesn't mean I'm implying you're not relaxed) and don't take anything I say personally. Empathy is a talent weakness of mine (read: I suck at it) so I don't pick up on the cues that would help me communicate in a more palatable manner with people.

    Oh, you mean 50 wins in your win:loss ratio. I get you.

    Alas.

    Thanks anyway.

    You've semi-inspired me to perhaps do a tournament of my own if I get the time. I'll have to see.

    I can convert it, just not easily. Using country-specific time zones require me to figure out what the actual timezone offset is in GTM, then figure out the time difference for the conversion.

    If you use GMT, you can instantly do a conversion based on the time difference. If you're in GMT-5 (EST) and I'm in GMT+10, I know that there's a 15 hour time difference, which you can then further simply to "next day" + the hour difference between our respective current time.


    I did research into this a while back, and GMT was the easiest, most reasonable and inclusive format for international usage (which includes country specific usage). Timezone offsets are intuitive. Labels are like acronyms: only useful once everybody understands and memorises what it represents.

    I'm saying all this because GMT should prove more helpful, but strangely, this probably isn't the case, which perplexes, but doesn't really surpise me, heh. In general, people are inherently not rigorously logical. (And no, I'm not implying that not being rigorously logical is a bad thing, although it can be, but that's pretty arbitrary.)

    Yeah, we use different definitions of "win farming."

    You may improve slightly playing people new to the game, but when you play people with similar experience to you, you'll probably be at a disadvantage since you'll optimise to people who don't understand the game and will make strange decisions vs someone who does. (Probably; not guaranteed, but likely.)

    People farming their own accounts is just silly and strange, but not that troublesome since ranked is really the only mode people care about.
  39. You should do what you want to do, not influence by what others impose on you, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to participate in your own tournament. I would.

    Forget the haters. As a rule, they're only really interested in themselves so any criticism from them is a projection of what they're feeling, not what is objectively reasonable.
  40. TheSilenT

    TheSilenT New Member

    Nahh, thanks anyways, but now that I think of it, running the lobby will be a full time job. Also, if one idiot like him thinks it, there must be another handful. If you really want to hold one too, I'll participate in it.
  41. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    hey, are we allowed to take videos of the matches? I'll do videos for my matches if they let us :D
  42. jiaflu

    jiaflu Member

    People should... I wanna see epic battles! xP
  43. TheSilenT

    TheSilenT New Member

    Be my guest. In fact, I hope you do, I'd watch them :p
  44. NorthernPolarity

    NorthernPolarity New Member

    I'm not sure if you're allowed to upload kongai videos anywhere :/ they'd probably let you if you only released them after kongai comes out though.
  45. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    well i have, but the one i did is private and i haven't shown anybody it yet...
  46. jiaflu

    jiaflu Member

    Don't upload, just share via IMs or something ^^
  47. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    My last video was 80 mb compressed, i don't wanna share that through IMs... then again maybe i should lower the quality on them
  48. FinalSlayer

    FinalSlayer Banned

    I'll sign up and play.

    Edit

    Heh, looks like it's full. Should be interesting to see what happens. No garcia, jiaflu, yoyo, or Rhine, though.
  49. Yeah, don't share videos just yet, guys. They want us to wait for Kongai to be released (silly them; videos are a great way to spread awareness about the game, even if watching Kongai is super-boring if you don't understand it, heh).

    Perhaps you can take a lot of screen shots and put them in a thread, and we'll scroll down and see it in semi-motion. :D
  50. TheSilenT

    TheSilenT New Member

    Tournament starts tomorrow. First post updated, cutting out all the sign up information and replacing it with the full rule set. Good luck to all participating!

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