League of Legends: True Successor Thread

Discussion in 'Now Playing' started by WinterAyars, Aug 10, 2011.

  1. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    Yeah, but he's right in a sense. Rupture in DotA 1 was totally WTF. It was crazy hard to see and not that pronounced of an effect. HoN/DotA2's Rupture is significantly better.
     
  2. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    I'm playing a lot with my account Waterd, if you want to add me.
     
  3. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    So true. I think the ship is no bad but a very very good skill. It has a main effect (stun and damage) and your primary goal is to maximise this effect. Additionally it has secondary effects and here you can truely master the skill. I don't see conflicting purposes but a lot of room improving your play and skill-level.

    DotA rupture is a bitch, but so are many spells. I bet until now most people don't understand ancient apparations skillset, they get the global ultimate, but not that it prevents heal and the conditions for it to scatter - also the increased aoe over longer distance is impossible to understand in dota.

    I think the solution is a post-death screen that lists all spells/buffs that hit you in the time before you died with a mouseover that shows a detailed description of all effects. Trying to not create multi-purpose abilities or abilities that are not 100% intuitive restricts the design space too much imo.
     
  4. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member


    In DotA 2 they sell AA really well on all his graphics. There's a big obvious 'sphere' that gets created on the 2nd activation of his ult and clearly shows what the AoE will be. Likewise the chilling effect is pretty pronounced for its duration, so even if you aren't clear what it's doing it's pretty obvious it's bad. Also at 10% health shatter, it's close enough to death anyways that most people won't feel cheated when it procs.

    AA (I never played him in DotA1) has become my favorite hero of all time in just using him a few times.

    DotA2 also has the log/screen you mentioned.
     
  5. ryzol

    ryzol Member

    I'm starting a season 2 team if anyone is interested. We don't have a set roster or roles yet. I'm looking for people who won't rage and will use voice chat. So far we seem to be mainly EST.

    I'm interested in teams for both SR and dominion. However, it is more of an SR focus since there is no ranked team dominion.
     
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  6. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    You guys are way under-thinking the ship example. Yeah, obviously if you hit a bunch of the enemy team, and then they all die, that worked out fine. The problem is what happens if they don't die... did you screw up your ult, or did your team fail to capitalize on it? It's like amumu's ult in LoL... can be absolutely devastating most of the time. But sometimes you use it, and even if you hit all 5 opponents, your entire team ends up dead. So it raises a serious question in the mind of the (solo queue/new) player about whether his timing was just terrible, or his dps is just too underfarmed or what?

    I'd be interested Ryzol... but I'm PST, and I generally play later rather than earlier. That generally doesn't work out well.
     
  7. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    This doesn't only hold true for the ship but for any aoe skill. Sometimes you wreck them and sometimes you don't. You have to think about what exactly happend. Was I too early, didn't my team follow-up properly. Or are they to tank to combo them all, do I need to fokus better? Did I hit the wrong targets?
    You can't have any aoe effects if you want to prevent this. And even single target nukes like laguna blade, sometimes it kills sometimes not, guess what - you have to check your opponents items/hp to see if it does.

    Therefore I think the first step is hitting the ship, once you can do it you can start thinking about timing, when and where to fight etc. It is much more complicated (I mess it up constantly) and independant of specific skills.
     
  8. ryzol

    ryzol Member

    What are your thoughts on running crit reds, AD quints, and starting Brawler's Gloves for AD bot? That gives you 20% crit chance so you should win the poke war. I think this would be strong on Caityln and Vayne.
     
  9. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    My Tristana rune page in dominion is all critical chance in marks and quints.
     
  10. unentschieden

    unentschieden Member

    The issue with the ship is that is ISN´T just about hitting enemies with it. It´s also about buffing allies. The issue is that to the average beginner it´s unclear how to use the ship effectivly. Did it go well if you hit all allies and saved 3 lives with it but no enemy? What if you miss your team but get an enemy to half?If it´s all about hitting the enemies what is the point of the buff?
    Fortunately in Dota2 Kunkka insults you if you do it wrong :p.

    The issue taken with Rupture is that it´s just a dot. That is until your ENEMY figures out how it works that it becomes an interesting skill.

    These guidlines are broken if the result is precieved as worthwhile - but that doesn´t always work. Maokais ult is definetly strong but it´s difficult to tell what exactly is happening and it´s sorta weird/unsatisfying to use. One of the most "WTF is going on!?" abilities in the game is Poppys ultimate which doesn´t really add to her gameplay.
     
  11. ryzol

    ryzol Member

    Is anyone watching WCG? The EDG vs. whoever match had worse play than I expected. They focused Anivia in the jungle invasion, CS was low, Anivia did stupid tower dives, and Karthus ulted when it wouldn't kill people. I did see a few nice plays, but the gameplay was loose.

    Canada (CLG) vs. Italy was what I expected. Very tight play on CLG's part. High CS, only 2 deaths, and no major mistakes. CLG aced Italy by tricking them into fighting in the jungle.

    WCG link:
    http://www.own3d.tv/live/167453/WCG_Main_Stage__English
     
  12. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    The Riot team has already admitted that Poppy's ult was a mistake on their part, though. I'm pretty sure that's in a talk that got linked here a while back that I saw that?

    I agree that Maokai's is totally unsatisfying. Seems to do no damage unless the enemy wants to stand in it fighting... and everyone's smart enough to know now to stand in gigantic circles on the ground. So it ends up sort of being a weird positioning tool.
     
  13. unentschieden

    unentschieden Member

    Yeah, I posted that link. Did you misunderstand something? Multicomponent abilities work best when all aspects have the same "goal". Jannas ult is great for "resetting" a fight. Maokais however is torn between keeping it on allies for defense or blowing it on enemies for offense. It also doesn´t really communicate that Maokais allies take less damage, if you don´t research it it appears to be a weak delayed aoe nuke.
    I´m curious what ability works well despite violating Zileases guidelines, in any of the MOBAs.
     
  14. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    What kind of lame beginner are we designing the game for? Like is Riot really that afraid that a person is going to play Kunkka for their very first game of Lol ever (lol like that could happen, he'd be locked!) and quit forever because the ship was too confusing for them?

    Besides every single ability in the game is ambiguous in team situations. Was it better that I stunned Ashe or should I have stunned Poppy? Should I have saved the stun for when they activated a steroid ability or was it better that I opened with it? Should I save a long range DD for when they start running, or is it better to hit it early to gain an advantage?

    As to unent's questions I'd say...

    -Kunkka's ship would be my #1 since we were talking about it. The ship is incredibly satisfying to land well.
    -Engima's ult might count. It's a melee-ish ranged channeled disable on a ranged caster support hero.
    -(HoN) Silhouette's tree grab (hooks into a tree and can pull her to the tree or the tree to herself) and illusion ult (can trade places with the illusion at any time) are really fun but can't be a bit unclear as to what's going on. Actually her whole design is something Riot would probably never do, but is really satisfying for everyone and she's a great hero.
    -Nevermore's ult might count (pbaoe ult for a ranged dps hero)

    That's all that comes to mind for now.
     
  15. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    Wait, seriously? I really didn't know that it did anything for allies whatsoever.

    You're still missing the point, Logo. Heck, calling beginners "lame" is sort of the issue in and of itself, why would you even want to reject potential players, how does that possibly improve your experience? The main problem with MOBAs in general is burden of knowledge. It takes months and months just to learn to lane properly (stay behind creep waves v. Morgana... don't stand behind creep waves v. Mordekaiser... continue for every single possible character in the game). Anything they can do to reduce that burden is a positive, regardless of whether a particular example sounds minor or not when considered by itself.

    And most abilities really aren't that ambiguous anyway. Obviously all the things you mentioned are interesting strategic questions, and to be a good player you have to be able to answer them. But most of those are character-independent. Anyone with a single-target stun does need to know who to stun, and when to stun them. But having a delayed, aoe stun that buffs allies makes it a worthwhile question whether that added complexity really adds or detracts from the experience in a general sense. The answer to that question might very well be "yes, the added complexity is worthwhile". But rejecting the validity of the question as several people here seem to be doing is probably the reason that LoL is massively more popular than Dota....
     
  16. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    By that logic the best move possible would be to delete 50% of the heroes and stop making new ones.

    Imo the problem is not new players that don't understand one of their skills 100% but usually the problem is not understanding what the opponents can do to you. Therefore any critics on complex usage mechanics are of minor importance imo.

    Beside the point that I'm not yet convinced that lol has significantly more players than dota, the question can be asked. And I think Kunkkas ship is borderline, not because of the different effects but because it really is hard to properly land it on purpose. Flame me for being noob, but I think the skill has pretty high variance even in the hands of good players which I dislike most.
     
  17. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    In some ways, it would.
     
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  18. unentschieden

    unentschieden Member

    It´s about making a fun skill to use and play with/against. A big part of it is how intuition friendly a skill is. 99% of the time in lol you want to dodge / move away from enemy effects. To a beginner it´s enough to know that when there is a red effect around Karthus you shouldn´t be close to him. Not knowing that the skill gives him mana back on lasthits when turned off won´t create frustrating situations and is unlikely for them to make outright mistakes.
    There are a few cases where explicit knowledge is required but the situation is still intuitive like Anivias passive.
    In most cases explicit knowledge is "only" important to excell.
    As bought up there are also cases where the tradeoff isn´t healthy, like poppys ult - most can tell it makes her invincible when the bubble is up but without looking it up it´s hard to figure out that the guy with the debuff can ignore the bubble.

    Wouldn´t hitting Kunkkas ship be even more satisfying to hit if the hit effect were better and you didn´t have to yell at your Teammates to run into the ship (because that makes sense)? Or on the other side wouldn´t it be much more intuitive to just think "dodge the ship" instead of there also being some weird buff some guys get? Is the ship good because of the buff or despite the buff?
     
  19. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    Haha... yes, that's a great idea, I kind of wish they would do it.

    I'm pretty sure this goes without saying... Dota just had no casual community whatsoever as far as I can tell. Between no matchmaking, little advertising, and negative community, I don't know anyone who plays it who wasn't hardcore/competitive. Whereas with Lol, I could name a surprisingly long list of people I know that play it because someone recommended it, and they think the skins are cute. Heck, I've even met "bot match only" players, who just like it because they can chat with friends and get a new experience every couple weeks by playing the most recent hero. Can you imagine that kind of player even existing in the other MOBA games?
     
  20. ryzol

    ryzol Member

    Maokai's ult is very good, and of medium difficulty for Maokai to use well. The problem is allies don't understand that if stand in it they take 20% less damage. However, a quick message at the beginning of the match can fix that.

    In small fights Maokai's ult is for damage. In 5v5 fights Maokai's ult is for the 20% damage reduction on your backline. If ending the ult will secure a kill then end it. If Maokai dies while his ult is up, the ult pops and you still get the damage from it.

    If you start the ult at the beginning of the fight, and end it for a kill you did a decent job. Maybe it is a little suboptimal based on the situation, but you still got good value out of it.
     
  21. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    Anyone formed any solid opinion about SR since the big patch? I kind of hate now... but I expect most people here like it. The jungle is soooooo dynamic. Seems like counter-jungling is constant, even at pretty low skill levels now, while it was fairly rare at lower ELO before they weakened the jungle mobs.

    Seems hard to keep up some champions. Like fiddle can deal with the jungle itself fine... but so many other junglers beat him 1v1, and he doesn't build a wriggle's for consistent vision. I don't really know how to use him effectively anymore...
     
  22. ryzol

    ryzol Member

    I like the new jungle. Routes are flexible. Aoe farmers got stronger, but overall the junglers are still balanced. I haven't jungled fiddlesticks since the patch. I've heard he's a bit weak with the patch. He's a slow jungler, when speed matters more. Also, the mobs get stronger so his jungle gets slower later on. He has strong ganks, but imo Amumu is better.

    Both Amumu and Fiddlesticks can gank pushed lanes, but Amumu clears faster.

    If I was jungling Fiddles I would buy 1-2 wards each back and put them in my jungle. He jungles slow enough that you need to ward your jungle.
     
  23. unentschieden

    unentschieden Member

    You completely missed the point though. No one argues that Maos ultimate is weak, however it´s unsatisfying. You can make ANY skill strong if you just buff the numbers enough. It´s far more difficult to make a skill "feel good" without it being OP.
    It´d maybe help if allies in it got the wooden "runes" which suggests that they have a benefit (no one looks at the bufflist) without having to explain it every game.
    Or change the damage to a different benefit that would drop the conflict between blowing it on enemies or keeping it on allies - making you feel bad about it either way.
     
  24. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    Some of the arguments around, seem to be in the line of "In MTG Shock should be changed from "2 damage to target creature or player" To only target the player or the creature, otherwise, the player will not know what to target"
    Really?
     
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  25. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    Maokai's ult isn't unsatisfying, it contributes towards making him one of the most fun champions in the game. I guess it does suck when you have to throw it out and then immediately cancel it for damage, but the rest of the time it's great. Rupture is great too, since that started the argument.

    Kunkka's ship always felt crappy, but more because of the huge delay and pain in the arse of doing what you want with it at certain ranges, not because you have two different things to optimise with it per se.

    Fair point about Poopy's ult though.
     
  26. unentschieden

    unentschieden Member

    If using maokais ult for the damage is what makes it feel crappy then what is the point of there being damage in the first place?
     
  27. ryzol

    ryzol Member

    It has good synergy with the damage reduction and helps Maokai win 1v1. You help your team tank the damage and then if you win you pop it and do a decent amount of damage to a fleeing team.
     
  28. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    It's only when you use it very rapidly and for ONLY the damage that it feels crappy. I think a lot of that is actually due to the "lag" on it. You have to mash R once placed since it refuses to blow up too early (I can see why they did that though.) So in those scenarios it feels like a damage spell that's just unnecessarily annoying to cast. But the rest of the time it's fun.
     
  29. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    My point is that for Kunkka's ult to be confusing or troubling enough for a player you have to be so incredibly stupid that you can't put your pants on in the morning. Yes it is hard to land, and so on, but that's not the argument leveled against Kunkka's ship. The argument is that the two effects make it hard to understand how to use it properly when the answer is just "be near your team when you activate it, hit as many enemies as possible."

    On top of that it's intuitive enough for everyone who isn't Kunkka. Avoid giant enemy ghost ship, done with like 95% of what you need to know. Sure you might want to know it's beneficial to allies it hits, but that's a secondary effect that isn't critical to understand. So the only player who's adversely effected by the dual effects IS the Kunkka player.

    So basically to lose a player that player has to a) Have some sort of expectation of being able to do well with their current experience in MOBA's, but not actually know enough to evaluate situations or skills, b) Pick Kunkka, c) Read Kunkka's skill description and have a panic attack, d) get so anxious over the proper use of the skill that rather than STOP PLAYING KUNKKA they have a breakdown and need to stop playing the game all together.
     
  30. unentschieden

    unentschieden Member

    Keep in mind that the vast majority of players doesn´t use forums or some other kind of outside information. From the name (Vegentful Maelstrom) to the tooltip Maokais ultimate sounds like an AOE nuke with a rather annoying bonus damage condition. When Maokai was released his ult only increased damage and manacost on levelup - and people that knew that the 20% damagereduction on the team was the actually good part only put one skillpoint in it.

    The intuitive and necessary part of the ship is "hit enemies with it" and in terms of counterplay "don´t get hit by it" - the buff only serves to make it more confusing and it´s inclusion in the skill is a minor "improvement" for high level play but a big annoyance for everyone else.

    Also we are discussing a guidline about designing skills, not one in particular. This isn´t about the one skill that makes people leave because it didn´t work for them as well as they´d expect. It´s about the sum of frustrating situations that occur in game under the (reasonable) assumption that not every player in the match knows every skill of the champs/heroes in question and the proper reactions to them.

    If you´d recommend any of the MOBAs to a friend and invite them to play a match together with you would you expect them to sit on the website/wiki/guides for X hours before actually starting to play?
     
  31. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    Regarding Kunkka's ship, I knew about the effects, but I didn't realize for the longest time that Kunkka couldn't hit you with it in a melee vs melee fight, and I played on a pro HoN team. I obviously rarely played Kunkka but I guess every time I used ship it just happened to be from max range so I never noticed.

    The exact cast range is something very few abilities have in the first place, but the other ones are obvious and make perfect sense; e.g., Mirana's Leap. Yes, I would know about the ship if I read all the tooltips in the game, but seriously, how would I possibly suspect that move has a fixed range? Nothing about the animation makes it intuitive that he can't cast it on top of himself.

    This is something nice about the LoL interface- if you pressed Kunkka's ult in League, you would see a circle showing exactly where it would hit before you cast it, and it would be really obvious that it has a fixed range.
     
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  32. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    Yeah I agree the ship could be more usable or better represented, but again that wasn't the complaint leveled against it.

    The buff is pretty important because it allows for the ship to be hard to land which I suppose is of questionable worth in some ways. Kunkka has a strong-ish skill set overall and isn't the typical hero to get a team AoE disable ult. If his ult was fully reliable he'd be a monster. Basically kinda like Chronos with more early game power and the ability to solo farm/lane (yikes!). But if we give him a hard to land ult that ONLY stuns it's too unreliable and makes him a big risk on a team, so the compromise is the dual purpose ship.

    Sure it's about the sum of frustrating skills, but I still don't see anyone making a compelling case of HOW the ship's dual purpose is frustrating. It's not like some skills that are completely divided, like Mokai's where to get the damage you need to sacrifice the damage reduction by ending the ability. In the case of the ship in the vast majority of cases casting it on your enemies will cast it on your allies (in fact I'd say it'd be harder to intentionally miss your allies when casting it on enemies). There shouldn't be any frustration of dual purpose because there's pretty much never a case where you're forced to make a meaningful trade-off of hitting allies vs hitting enemies. Plus the rewards aren't even and are weighed petty heavily towards hitting the enemy so even if there was that trade-off it's not a blind choice.

    Like I'm fine with saying it's a bad ability for having a fixed range on a long resolution, but that has nothing to do with the stated problem of 'unclear optimization' which I think is one principal that was overreaching in its definition. Mokai's ability is a MUCH better example of unclear optimization in my opinion while Kunkka's ship might be removed for being frustrating or have its animation/target rectile reworked because it's not being sold well enough.

    The way unclear optimization was defined just reaches too far overall. Take Deathknight/Accursed's nuke/heal (heals allies or nukes enemies). It's a great fun skill that has a lot of flexibility, but is a little tough to optimize fully. Still I don't see anything wrong with that since there is only ever 2 discrete ways to use it (heal low ally, damage enemy).

    So in short for me unclear optimization is only an issue IF the ability's split purposes are conflicting. Something like Dazzle's armor cloud (+armor to allies, -armor to enemies over time in an AoE) is fine because the two parts of the effect do not conflict with each other; you cast it over the maximum number of people you can and everything else is a minor possible optimization that has almost no impact.
     
  33. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    Sorry, to clarify my post had nothing to do with the topic of unclear optimization, it was more "it makes no sense (besides balance purposes) and is not obvious that it can only be cast at a fixed range". I would also agree it's not obvious the ship buffs your teammates.

    Regarding unclear optimization, are we saying that's a bad thing? Almost this entire game genre is based off decision-making as the mechanical skill required is significantly less than RTS or fighter games. The dual defensive/offensive choice abilities in LoL that come to mind are Taric's Shatter, Soraka's Infuse, and Zilean's Chronoboost, but really, how different is 1) choosing whether to Shatter compared to knowing whether a Randuin's Omen or a Deathfire Grasp would be a better next buy? Or perhaps 2) knowing whether you should push the tower, gank another lane, or go back and buy after killing his lane opponent? How about 3) Taric's Dazzle in teamfights even, where it's extremely unclear even for good players to know whether you should use it to save your carry or help kill the enemy carry?
     
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  34. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    Logo pretty much summed up the design reasoning, but here is some other in my opinion false reasoning hidden. First you argue that noone reads the tooltip and than you say it is a big annoyance and only useful for high level play. I'd say people so low that they don't read the tooltip don't care about buffing anyone. And if they play equal opponents noone even realises there is some buffing going on and noone is annoyed (though this is really really low level of play).

    The discussion was fueled by Zileas list of game design anti-patterns, particularly this one:
     
  35. unentschieden

    unentschieden Member

    It´s a broad definition since it´s more a guideline instead of hard rules. But if you intend to break one you should have a good reason for it. In the case of Kunkkas ship the reason for including a weak and confusing element to the skill to make it crappier for balance reasons doesn´t really sound good does it? Bad design for the purpose of balance is the kind of thing you want to AVOID with skill design guidelines.
    Unclear optimization is a negative trait since it feels good to use a skill well. It also feels good from keeping an enemy from using a skill well. It feels "meh" though if you are unshure how well a skill has been utilised. It also invites frustrating situations where the skill feels weak since you maximise the wrong aspect, the damage on Maokais ult for example.
    Even under the examples Aesa bought up there are issues, Tarics shatter had been changed to loose the selfaffecting portion of the buff instead of the aura to reduce the conflict between using it to deal damage and not using it to protect the team.
    Soraka and Zilean aren´t really cases of unclear optimisation, Sorakas is more a case of bringing a pure sustainskill into an atrittion based fighting setup (at least while laning).
    Zileans E always serves to create a MS differential to your Teams advantage. There are multiple ways he can accomplish that but the skills purpose is clear.

    Not "no one reads the ability-tooltip" but "you can´t expect anyone to know all tooltips" and "no one reads the buff tooltip". I don´t remember ever saying that skills need to be so simple that tooltips are unnecessary. We can expect players to know at least the skills of the guy they are playing. They need to be intuitive enough though that other players (that can´t read the exact tooltip) react correctly.
    A good example is Karthuses Q (delayed AOE, double damage if only one target is hit). Dodging the skill is the intuitive and correct reaction. Standing next to a creep if you can´t dodge may be optimal but not doing it isn´t wrong.
     
  36. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    Any play that isn't the optimal play, it's the wrong play.
     
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  37. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    But it is as simple as Karthus Q. As an opponent your try to evade the ship just like you try to evade Karthus Lay Waste. As a teammate you don't suddenly jump in a strange spot to get a minor buff but it is Kunkkas responsibility to target his ship so that his teammates get the buff, therefore only he needs to read his tooltip. Also the aoe is so huge that it is really hard to not hit your teammates if you don't come from a completely different angle. So the only thing it does is: team gets buffed if you attack together with them and team does not get buffed if you solo attack or come from a strange angle. Also you might want to use the ship not as first initiation because if you have an other initiator that jumps in he will get the buff for sure if he goes first. This assessment is buffed further since you can't reliably hit the ship on nonedisabled targets. Therefore it is completely obvious how to use it.
     
  38. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    ^^You're using circular logic. "Here is a giant explanation of X. Now look, clearly you understand X, and therefore I didn't need to explain it!"

    Noone said the ability was bad. They just said it was un-intuitive. Why do you know it's less important to use it for the buff than for the stun? The whole Maokai discussion has made a pretty good counterpoint regarding a similar delayed nuke that's actually *more* important for the defensive portion than the offensive.

    How is a new player supposed to figure that stuff out on the fly? And, more importantly, when there's 90+ characters in each game, why is it necessary/acceptable to include a weird dual-purpose skill that acts as a pitfall, when clearly the game can be played just as well without these characters?
     
  39. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    Including dual-purpose spells is not "necessary" but I don't see why it shouldn't be "acceptable". Those two are a far cry from eachother and pretty much 90% of the things in the game fall in between them.

    I mean, what about Kassadin's vs Malphite's ultimates? The former tends to be used for mobility/positioning while the latter tends to be used for damage, which is probably obvious to most of us given the disparity in the damage they deal, the knockup, and the innate tankiness of those champions. But in a teamfight, how is a new player supposed to know not to Riftwalk into the 4 guys with a melee champion, especially when you're SUPPOSED to Unstoppable Force into 4 guys? Do you consider that unacceptable as well?
     
  40. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    Maokai's ult is different because the damage comes at the expense of the protection. Kunkka doesn't have that trade-off except in edge cases.

    Also you know the buff isn't as valuable because you can read. 300-500 aoe damage (over a full regular nuke worth of damage) + aoe stun vs delaying (but not preventing) damage from being dealt to allies and a minor speed boost. Unless you have a warped sense of valuation it's obvious which is going to be more beneficial most of the time. In DotA specifically upfront damage is really important at the expense of most other things. It's not like Lol where teamfights are drawn out and have a lot of poking. If you can take off 20-50% of the majority of the enemy team's health then that's really valuable without many caveats. Doubly so if it comes with the strongest form of CC. That's why heroes like Zeus ult at the start of a battle, not the end (well it also disrupts blink dagger which is nice).
     
  41. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    I didn't say I personally considered the Kunkka/Maokai ults unacceptable... so "as well" isn't the right question.

    I'm just saying I can understand the viewpoint from that original post that was linked, and saying everything's fine because people hanging around on this board can figure it all out is pretty short-sighted. We are not average players.
     
  42. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    Ah, it just sounded like you were agreeing. I can understand why someone would think that too, however I disagree because I really don't think "hey, throw this boat at your enemies" is more complicated to beginners than anything else in the game.

    Also note that I didn't say everything is fine because experts can figure them out. I'm saying that claiming an ability is unacceptable because it is not obvious how a beginner should use it is silly, because almost every single ability in the game falls into this category. Even something as simplistic as Zeus ult mentioned above by Logo- the vast majority of beginners use it when they know they can get a kill, not at the start of a teamfight despite the skill itself not being remotely confusing to what it does. Hell, even most mid-level players use it as a finisher.

    I personally would consider it completely unacceptable if every single ability out of 400 or so in LoL would be trivial for a beginner to optimize. That would only be possible if every champion was pretty much a clone of Xin Zhao with different animations.
     
  43. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    Which is increasingly what seems to be happening, heh
     
    ryzol likes this.
  44. icewolf34

    icewolf34 Well-Known Member

    Couple of points:
    As a couple of people already said: yeah, I think that would be a great idea actually.

    Usually I don't like to argue about analogies, but I'll bite on this one. There's something to be said for the cohesiveness and elegance of a card or ability. Dealing 2 damage to a creature or 2 damage to a player is modal, but it's easy to keep it in your head. Imagine if instead Shock was "Deal 2 damage to a creature, put a poison counter on a player, and target artifact becomes indestructible". Ghost Ship is just not an elegant design. The fact that it's hard to tell if you used it correctly is just a symptom of its inelegance.

    By the way, an effect can be hard-to-optimize without being inelegant. (One might say that this is the entire skill of game design.) Shock actually is a fine example of this, in beatdown decks particularly. Fissure in DotA is another one.
     
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  45. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    ^^ Well said.

    Also, I completely disagree with this. You're speaking as if "optimizing individual skill use" is even a thing in this game. It's a team game, you win if you're good at teamplay. I don't want to have to focus on whether I'm using individual abilities optimally, I want that to be obvious. Then the actual important questions in the game can be focused on "Am I balancing farm and harass well?" "Am I successfully supporting my team with my disables?" "If my optimally used skill is not leading to victory, what is it about the other champions on each team that's making me ineffective?".
     
  46. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    Claytus, I agree with your premise of good design.

    But let's say there's an ability that over 50% of the playerbase uses incorrectly. What's your opinion on that? Is Zeus ult fine?
     
  47. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    If a skill is easy to optimize it's use, whats the point?
     
  48. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    I still don't want to take a stand on specific abilities... I could probably argue any specific case for or against, and it wouldn't even say very much, since I'm a pretty terrible Dota player anyway, I really only know the workings of LoL heroes off the top of my head.

    I'm certainly not a fan of Maokai, since I've personally managed to play him multiple times on free weeks, and clearly didn't even understand what his ability did, much less what the optimal use-case is. But do I personally think that it should therefore be removed from the game? I don't know... probably not. It may seem hypocritical, but what players want and what designers should do, don't (and shouldn't) align.

    I can be happy with "poorly" designed abilities, even while respecting a designer who wants to make a compelling case that they do involve poor design, and feels he should reject them. The whole thing is kind of moot, since I'm not on a team, and even while I like to talk lofty ideals about how the game "actually" works, I don't play it that way.

    I think we're discussing skills without considering for cooldown or positioning. I know the "optimal case" for dark binding+scorched earth. I bind the other guy in the middle of the Dot effect, bonus points if I bind him under a tower. Knowing that doesn't translate into being able to produce that optimal case over and over. But complicating the abilities so that the optimal use case itself is harder to understand just makes it less fun for beginners, with no change to playstyle for experts.

    Or to use a concrete example: I love playing Ryze, as a lot of people here know. Part of the reason I enjoy him is that *everyone* knows how to counter Ryze. He's one of the simplest of all LoL heroes, and there's pretty much zero chance of getting some bullshit kill, whereas if I play Leblanc in solo queue, half of my opponents clearly just don't understand her ability set or how much damage she deals, and I just kill them all day (and the other half of the opponents do understand, and then I lose because I never get to practice how to play her "correctly"). It's more fun to outplay your opponent from equal standing than it is to just walk away with free points because I happened to know something they didn't.
     
  49. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    My only point was that if you make an ability that a beginner uses it right 99% of the time, there is very little room for even remotely interesting abilities- I just picked Zeus ult but there are hundreds of examples.

    In fact, the designers probably even realized that people would try to use it as a finisher instead of an initiator, hence Zeus's passive doing percent damage based on their current HP.
     
  50. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    But the point isn't to create interesting abilities. It's to create interesting characters. I'm happier seeing things like Udyr or Karma where they did something interesting because it's different, rather than some wonky skillshot/disable/nuke thing that's slightly harder or easier to use than the 9000 versions that already exist in these games, which covers basically all the abilities we've been discussing so far.

    Leblanc's ult is a great example of an ability with many uses without any being confusing or redundant, and where all of the uses are worthwhile in certain situations. Heck, I even liked old v1 Renekton where he only got a stun if he used Fury on his stun ability, rather than the current one where the stun is just longer. I'll agree he's easier to play now... but he was still easy to understand before. You just had to actually watch your bars and know how they worked instead of faceroll once your cursor is over an enemy.
     

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