League of Legends: True Successor Thread

Discussion in 'Now Playing' started by WinterAyars, Aug 10, 2011.

  1. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    I think it's more than that. The Koreans weren't really countering on a matchup level but rather an application level. Like they would "know" when whoever wanted to do whatever and preemptively start positioning for it. This is why allot of those fights that should have been 3v1 ultimately ended up being something like 3v4 instead; they were playing the players, not the match-ups. One thing the Koreans initially failed on though was dealing with Singed, for whatever reason they simply weren't ready for that, but you can definitely see how they made that player-level adjustment in the do-over match. Alternatively I suppose you could make the argument that TSM kinda folded in that final match... and honestly I'm not sure you'd be wrong.
     
  2. Gon

    Gon Active Member

    Part of it was the Maokai ALWAYS going boots of mobility so that he could get anywhere really fast to help counter the globals.
     
  3. Yagamoth

    Yagamoth Member

    I think that's a good way to put it - except that I'd say they ALSO countered on a matchup-level. Also, I agree, TSM seemed to tilt on the last match (as they did yesterday playing against Dignitas, I think they have internal problems or something like that).

    I actually had the 'feeling', that almost all teams already lost in the pick-phase against Azubu. Azubu didn't seem to play any better than TSM mechanically - I even think they were not as good individually compared to their counterparts. However, they simply set another level of advanced tactics on top of what we know from M5 (= ~the more refined strategies ) - which is a more thought-through pick-phase and general strategy.

    In short, I think, Azubu consciously knows why they win, as opposed to most other top teams, which are more or less trial & error + raw skill (which is probably also why they consistently favor the same Champions).

    Edit: My memory is probably not too good, or I simply had a different impression than various recaps of the matches, where individual Azubu members are thought of as individually stronger than the TSM players. In my brain, I had Azubu as being much stronger due to the overall tactic and teamplay, not the individual play. But I might very well be wrong here... It's been a while since I watched the match :eek:
     
  4. Fry

    Fry Well-Known Member

    Just woke up from a dream where I successfully ganked a Shaco at level one.

    I have not booted up LoL in well over a year.

    My brain is a strange place.
     
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  5. Gon

    Gon Active Member

    Yeah I don't think AB would do as well in solo queue as some members of TSM.
     
  6. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    Rambling time.
    I want to share some thoughts on what i think of lol vs other mobas and decided to put it here.
    I've been thinking for a while a way to rationalize how I look at the difference in design between lol and dota/hon.
    I feel champs other mobs have more variety in champion final purpose. I couldn't rational make that compatible with my very strong feeling that feeling LOL champion specialization have higher pay offs than in dota/hon.

    I think the key of this is how fights develop in both games. Hon/Dota is more about initation. The most important question imo is "Who initiated and when"That is the most important question. In lol that question is not as important as the multiple questions that rise during a fight. LoL fights are more complex.

    But as you know in this genere, Fight is only a part of the game. And that is where Hon/Dota have more variety. Champs are widely different and so different that they really give room to very different strategies, even crazy strategies. All the non fight question have more variety. You can play early game strats, late game strats, gank based strats, farm based strats, push strats, etc etc etc.

    In LOL you don't have those options that different. You can have minor difference, but overall your options at a strategy level are limited. LoL is less about what strategy are you gonna develop or try, but more about how you execute the same strategy.

    I think without question, on the overall final product, dota/hon have more variety and that allows you to have more widely different experiences on how you play the game. But in a fight, there isn't really that much different how champs play in a fight, you basically initate or follow the initiation.

    In LOL on the overall strategy champs have too many clones to which the plan is basically the same. But in a fight , since they are long and complex, every bit of durability, damage , cooldowns and ability, affect greatly how you you should reposition in a fight, and since that is very intuitive stuff, only with very repeated play one can have the experience neccesary to react to situations fast enough and know what's the best reposition in a fight.

    I hope wall of text made sense to you.
     
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  7. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

    I had always felt this same type of confusion when discussing the games, and I think your explanation is pretty good.
     
  8. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    Agreed. Except for if you have some kind of splitpush champ your gameplan for every AD carry is basically the same, but how Draven vs Caitlyn vs Ezreal vs Graves actually plays out in a teamfight is pretty different.
     
  9. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    I'd really like an example of how that's true. I've watched some LoL and Dota recently and I just don't see it.
     
  10. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    I think there is some truth to it. Certainly it is not black and white. There are very complex back and for fights in dota as well. But often late game 5v5 fights are very fast and decided by good initiation. Not sure if it is less in LoL since I don't play it much. I always had the feeling LoL is more designed for fighting 5v5 so I can see fights being longer and more complicated in average.

    Fortunately in dota small skirmishes play much better than in LoL. Like 2v2, 3v2 or 3v3 with low number of items and skills is crazy fun.
     
  11. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    The reason i'm having trouble with the "initiation = everything" argument for either game is because both games have things designed to mitigate that. BKB, mek, and pipe being 3 big must have items in dota and lol having things like sash and flash.
     
  12. brainof7

    brainof7 Member

    flash is good, but the distance really isn't. You can't entirely disengage from anyone with a gap closer with just flash, and its only up every like 4:30 or so. Quicksilver sash is an item that generally only AD carries build as their 4th item, and only if the other team has a good CC that is hard to avoid.
     
  13. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    Eji1700. My experience at playing Puck, Earthshacker or Enigma in a fight, is to me pretty similar. As is Playing Trax, Banshee or Viper. I'm not making a statement based on evidence, but that's at least how i feel it, right or wrong.
     
  14. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    I agree with watered, LoL is significantly more homogenized than DotA or HoN so on a macro strategic level it's significantly less interesting; that said LoL generally gives you more buttons to press and is less interested in restricting your buttons, thus team fights generally require more choices from both sides. I also agree that hero specialization in LoL is superior to hero specialization in DotA but I believe the reason is that DotA contains significantly more hard counters. Finally I agree with Eji1700; while initiation is vital to success in team fights, there are definitely ways around strong initiators and ways to bait poor initiation.
     
  15. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    As I'm starting to have more time and i'm playing slightly more I will start updating my tier list again starting with this which is barely order inside tiers, but is a good start.

    Dominion Tier List:

    Tier S: Must picks champs based on sheer power
    Tier 1: Champs that are clearly better than average.
    Tier 2: Champs that are ok to pick to fill the roles.
    Tier 3: Extremly situational picks.
    Tier F: Champs that are too weak to be worth picking.

    Tier S: Kassadin,
    Tier 1: Jayce, Teemo,Jax, Poppy, Pantheon, Urgot, Ezreal.
    Tier 2: Rammus, Amumu, Wukong,Sona, Darius, Alistar, Blitzcrank, Ryze, Yorick, Cassiopeia, Maokai, Irelia,Malphite, Nunu, Jarvan, Lulu, Xin zaho, Malzahar, Skarner,Kog maw, Miss Fortune, Olaf, Fizz, Leblanc, Ahri, Janna, Diana, Graves, Udyr, Swain, Zyra, Kayle, Singed,Vayne,Taric, Corki, Rumble, Leona, Shaco, Nocturne, Brand, Varus, Orianna, Evelynn, Riven, Warwick, Talon, Mordekaiser, Caitlyn.
    Tier 3: Heimerdinger, Ashe, Shyvana, Vladimir,Shen, Soraka, Nasus, Twisted fate, Karthus,Katarina, Draven, Nidalee, Sivir,Zilean,Lux,Anivia,Gangplank,Dr.Mundo,Morgana, Fiddlesticks, Annie, Galio, Ziggs, Trundle, Gragas, Sion, Fiona, Hecarim, Lee sin, Master yi, Garen, Twitch, Volibear, Nautilus, Cho'gath, Akali, Kennen, Tristana, Xerath.
    Tier F: Viktor, Karma, Veigar, Renekton, Sejuani, Tryndamare.

    General Guides:
    Rune Guide

    Champ Builds:
    Teemo
    Miss Fortune
     
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  16. Cauldrath

    Cauldrath Member

    How is Amumu tier F when he is commonly picked and very successful in tournament play?

    Also, why are Irelia and Graves tier 1 when they are almost never played in tournaments? Not saying they are bad, just probably shouldn't be above champs like Lulu and Malphite, who are picked or banned almost every game. Also, Shyvana, who I don't recall seeing in a tournament game in months (when she was getting pushed out of bot lane pretty hard), is above Swain and Udyr, who are played well every week.

    I also noticed Janna is missing.
     
  17. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    WaterD's lists are usually dominion I think.
     
  18. monkeyswinkle

    monkeyswinkle Member

    I think he is commenting about Dominion. I'm guessing Shyvana getting pushed out of bot lane is probably referring to a Dominion situation rather than a SR one.
     
  19. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Even if that list is dominion is seems a bit off, Soraka not being trash tier for example.
     
  20. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    Irelia and Graves are extremly played in EU and my experience with them in solo q and the few apparences they have in US make me think that US just prefer to play other champs for the wrong reasons. However I will send Graves to tier 2.
    Lulu is extremly overrated imo and Malphite isn't the same since the big nerf. Shyvana also used in EU quite a bit.
    I think I never Saw amumu win a game in a tournament until the last one, surprise me. Though you are right i should at least move it to tier 3.
     
  21. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    So, wouldn't it make more sense or at least be more useful to format a tier list for LoL by effectiveness in a particular role? Like:
    Code:
    TOP: JUNGLE: SUPPORT: AD: AP:
    S:   S:      S:       S:  S:
    1:   1:      1:       1:  1:
    2:   2:      2:       2:  2:
    3:   3:      3:       3:  3:
    F:   F:      F:       F:  F:
    I mean obviously the majority of heroes would end up being F-Tier in 4/5 of those roles but I think that kind of tier list is more representative of how the game actually functions.
     
  22. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    In dominion it doesn't work exactly that way
     
  23. Fenrir

    Fenrir Well-Known Member

    Ah, I see, dominion picks. That explains alot of the stuff I thought was odd. Like kassadin as a top pick.
     
  24. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    OK so it IS a dominion list.
     
  25. Gon

    Gon Active Member

    Well when Kassadin is god tier and TF is trash tier......... I thought it was pretty obvious it was dominion.
     
  26. brainof7

    brainof7 Member

    I think initiation heroes are gonna start being a thing in lol. Up till now, everything has been about just doing more damage since fights tend to be really sustained, but recent tournament play has a lot of heroes like malphite, maokai, blitzcrank, alistar, stuff like that being top picks. The ability to force a fight wherever you want, and force someone to die if you catch them with your team is pretty big. Even Taric is starting to come back, and he used to be pretty bad since he was basically just a stun. Now people are picking carries with good damage, so having supports with good CC is really really good. Sona is starting to come back too!
     
  27. Gon

    Gon Active Member

    Well initiation has always been a thing. Also, Maokai and Alistar are picked more for their potential for aggressive ganks moreso than what they bring in team fights.

    Sona just got buffed recently and she's seen a lot more play. She's one of my favorite champions to play so I've really enjoyed playing her :D
     
  28. brainof7

    brainof7 Member

    I tend to disagree with initiation always being a thing. There are plenty of very low CC comps with no real way to force a fight that are very good. Compared to DotA, this game is a lot about your damage vs their tankiness beating their damage vs your tankiness just being better. In a lot of other games, it can all come down to whichever team initiates better, which typically isn't the case in lol. Even if you get like perfect malphite > kennen > alistar chain CC, they can still just be really far ahead and win the teamfight. Yes, aggressive ganks are good, but you don't see people playing Shaco, Jarvan, old Xin Zhao in high level tournament play. The stuff that is picked with aggressive ganking potential is like Shen, Ali, Mao, because they are such great teamfighters too. Even Lee Sin has fallen out of favor with a lot of players recently, and he is pretty much the epitome of level 2 aggressive gank guy.
     
  29. brainof7

    brainof7 Member

    I have been copying Nyjacky Morgana stuff. I might have found a new main. You can play soooooo agressive, and the main thing I learned from watching his stream is to just throw out blind dark bindings from out of sight. If you land just 1, its like a guaranteed kill by just flash/ult/igniting your lane. I don't know of any other character who just randomly goes "oops, I guess I killed you"
     
  30. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    Morgana has been a strange champ to me for a whle in SR streams. A highly feared champ that I've rarely if ever saw winning when you couldn't guess the winner by the names of the teams. Even so , her winrate in the past tournaments have been in the 30-40% range.

    EDIT: I updated the tier list to reflect my change on opinions based on this week play and this weekend tournament.
     
  31. Gon

    Gon Active Member

    I've noticed with bans, champions who tend to be banned tend to be the ones who have the most salient effects on the game, and are NOT necessarily the strongest champions.

    For example, right now Ezreal and Taric both seem to be some of the strongest champions - showing around 54-55% win rates over the past month, yet they probably won't be banned due to not having highly salient impacts on games. Other champions, say Alistar or Shen, currently both have empirically shown ~50% win rates over the past month, yet are banned more. Morgana is another champion like that, where right now, Taric is actually a stronger champion, yet since he has a less salient impact, he won't be banned.
     
  32. Yagamoth

    Yagamoth Member

    ^ Anivia works like that, and actually even better in this case ;)

    But I agree, those blind Qs are devastating and don't cost too much for the Morgana. This is pretty much the reason, why I stopped picking LeBlanc against a Morgana - I got destroyed by a clever opponent who knew how to throw such bindings.

    On Ezreal/Corki: I think, mobility trumps everything currently. Because they can avoid getting initiated on relatively easy (given a quick enough reaction time). Other Champions like Tristana/Graves have much smaller leeway to escape an initiation. Tristanas Jump is extremely slow initially and Graves Dash is fairly short ranged.

    On another note: Why do people not use Champions such as LeBlanc or Ahri AD carries? Even Orianna has a massive Armor/MR + Auto Attack damage boost early on, which would result in a more dominant early game.

    I know about the lack of Base attack speed and the missing AD ratios. But in my opinion, the CCs and escapes could easily outweigh this with an exceptional early and decent late game. Escpecially, if the enemy uses Champions such as Jax or Nocturne, which usually jump on you.

    Then again, my weakest role is AD carry, so I might miss something.
     
  33. Turbo164

    Turbo164 Well-Known Member

    Shurelia experimented with AD Leblanc and thought it was viable way back then; don't think it's been used in any big-name tournaments (but a lot of things take a while to catch on, as the number of "no changes for 3 months but suddenly broken somehow" champs shows)

    AD Malz is a thing, since his crabs have a ratio.

    AD Kennen is a thing; his W has a ratio, E is an escape, R is a stun regardless of AP amount, and his base damage/attackspeed are very good.
     
  34. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    I keep wanting to try bottom lane Ori (not the support, which sucks and is awful.) With Alistair or Leona (MAYBE Taric.) I dunno how you'd itemise though.
     
  35. brainof7

    brainof7 Member

    anything that they don't want to be an AD carry, but they don't really want to be an AD carry they generally nerf the attack speed on pretty bad. That's what happened to Kennen and Annie at least
     
  36. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    I'm in mood again to make guides for dominion, so if someone wants a guide for any champ in dominion, request it here.
     
  37. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

    Kassadin
     
  38. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    I really wonder if joking or not.
     
  39. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

    No, I don't know the best way to build him at all
     
  40. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    I won't help with kass, Yorick or URGOT.
     
  41. Turbo164

    Turbo164 Well-Known Member

    Teemo!
     
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  42. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

  43. Yagamoth

    Yagamoth Member

    Is there a general guide for Dominion? I still see the whole mode as a chaos, basically the way I saw SR when I started LoL. I have no clue about actual priorities, roles and picks.

    Edit: Also, on another note, after I've now made a longer break, it's interesting how people play around my rating.. I expected to lose the first few ranked games horribly, being rusty and all, but I guess the complete field stretched by now and more and more people get to their Elo.

    As a result, the teams seem to be a bit more balanced (though , I've only played around 6 ranked games up to now, so that may be coincidence). But also, the people that played 200-300 rating lower before my break, are now in my region. They make more mistakes than I do and I take advantage of that. Also, I guess, many people forget how powerful certain champions are if they aren't played anymore.

    Trundle catches no-escape champions and Jarvan crushes opponents that don't buy armor ^^
     
  44. Gon

    Gon Active Member

    Waterd do you know if/when there will ever be a ranked mode in dominion? I can't tell if it's something they are working on or if they just want to keep dominion as a fun battle mode and are worried rankings will sour that. I guess there are also potential balance concerns since most champions seem to be balanced on SR?
     
  45. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=13473
    This is my guide that is "on construction"

    http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2244698
    This is a very complete guide of one of the best players. Though He likes to brag about his and his team accomplishments during the guide, lots of those brags are untrue. And I don't agree completly with the guide. However he is still one of the best players and the guide is still very good.

    Gon. Riot have been promised ranked dominion for a year. Most bets are on dominion having ranked by season 3. But it's really unknown. Riot said they want to have Ranked dominion. But riot said many things that aren't true.

    About balance concerns in dominion, it's pretty balanced. There are 3 champs that could be banned in draft that are a little too much (Kassadin, Urgot, Yorick). Urgot and yorick wouldn't be so crazy if revive is removed. Kassadin seem to have no solution in sight, though Riotnome said they are trying to find one. Last kassadin nerf was 100% aimed at dominion.

    I think 30% of balance problems in dominion (that are SPECIFIC of dominion) are Kassadin based, the other 20% is Urgot and yorick, 30% is revive , and the last 20% is the lack of blue buff, red buff and Blue elixir.

    Having said that dominion have a lot of variety and other than kassadin, nothing really breaks the game. I even think that Kassadin should have a special tier above Urgot and Yorick. Urgot and yorick while very powerful , have counters. In fact in tournaments sometimes people do not ban them and just play counters to them. Kassadin have no known counters.
     
  46. Fenrir

    Fenrir Well-Known Member

    If kassadin had say, three counter picks, would that make it ok?
     
  47. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    No, That's what happens with Urgot and Yorick. It's not ok but at least is tolerable.
     
  48. Gon

    Gon Active Member

    And this is why we have bans.
     
  49. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    Well, we don't Draft dominion is dead. I'm sure that would be different if we had ranked, we do not.
     
  50. Majidah

    Majidah Well-Known Member

    ^ this, after about 1800 elo it's 15 minutes wait for a game minimum, often more if people dodge/don't click accept. Normal is 1-2 minutes wait. There is sort of an informal soft-ban on kass/urg/yorick but you'll probably see one of those three in each game.
     

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