Discussion in 'Politics' started by DjinnFor, Nov 22, 2009.
I'd not be surprised if this was five pages by tomorrow. What's your stance on these issues?
Can America collapse faster so we can stop listening to annoying radio hosts? Just have a communists/facist/evilist/deathist/doomist/antichrist/negroist/UNist/enslavist/policist revolution and get it over with for god's sake.
Personally I think the only solution to this is by building a time machine and moving the population of the united states from all time periods into 1776. That would make for a GLORIOUS age!
I think his idea of how "this recession was purposefully made by banks or something so that they can create a world bank and eventually a world government etc" is a pretty believable conspiracy theory.
Fall of the Republic goes into that a whole lot.
Alex Jone's primary diet is rage
I basically toss all this up in the same bin as 'Mayan Apocalypse'.
I mean, sure, it's infinitely more likely than the Mayan Apocalypse (No chance compared to virtually no chance). Basically anything that falls into 'conspiracy theory' is auto-dismissed.
They might be able to fabricate what seems like an impressive story supported by facts, but t the end of the day, few of the facts ever hold up and the methology is the same as that of fundementalists. Assume a scenario and then try and find potential proof to support it. It always ends up being pretty much bullshit, especially when the sensible answer makes way more sense to begin with.
I mean come on what am I supposed to believe:
High ranking executives and political forces execute a complex and dangerous plan, putting their fortunes on the line for more power, risking exposure or a total backfire to gain grand world power -- even considering the logistics involved, the ease in which a whistleblower could exist and the fact that it'd be more sensible to keep on being powerful where they are right now anyways.
A bunch of greedy fools invested in a bunch of dangerous sectors, under the assumption everything would be good forever and because stock holders would be pissed if profits dropped all the sudden because someone had a hunch that the bubble was going to burst?
One of these falls in line with what I consider to be the true reality of people. The other sounds like the beginning of the plot to Modern Warfare 3. I'm not silly though! I'm sure theres conspiracies going on all the time! Conspiracies such as taking peoples money and investing it in high risk business ventures in a market that was previously only sustained by hopes and dreams! Man, I wonder if that every happened.
I think some people just get unsettled at the insane uncertainty of life. In a strange ways, these theories are comforting. They give a semi-tangible enemy and make the world make sense.
Of course, escapism like that is cowardice.
Personally, I'd love a "globalist conspiracy" to really happen. I'm so sad that the thousands of globalist conspiracy over the years never pan out. It is always the secessionist conspiracies (an not so conspiracies when they blow up real people) that has a go. Since when was the last time a conspiracy that joins people as opposed to dividing them happened? The only times where it happens outside of standard conquest is when culture and economic integration makes it totally natural to merge, and even than it doesn't really happen without a ethnic movement before it.
What gets me isn't that crazy theories exist, but one the most alarmist ones are those with a world government. Do they even know what that means? If it is really a government that represents the world than it is perfectly good and fine.
It is government that represents the interests of a small group of people from small region while controlling the rest of the world that is more dangerous. AKA THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
From the perspective from other nations, they are already pretty damn screwed by America's superpower status. Now it can definitely be worst since as empires go, America is a fairly restrained one. That said, power imbalance just don't work that well.
Sometimes I wonder whether any white racists ever took all the antisemite propoganda at face value and figured that the Jews are in fact smarter, more capable and more organized their their own inferior race and is indeed more fit to survive......
I'd APPLAUD them if this were really the case, as oppose to bitching about it. Its a act of awesome and daring that needs praise not rants. (from a certain perspective) I'd really rant only if it hurts my bottom line directly, but I'd still be damned impressed. Sadly, reality is rarely as awesome as the conspiracies.
Reality is a result of many conspiracies (but most of them utterly uninteresting deception ranging from "the dog at my homework and up), but I have no reason to think that future conspiracies will be much different from what has been seen in the past, and that it would necessarily hurt me. In the game of conspiracies it is one of power and information, and my position as a reasonably well informed person with reasonable economic and social resources protects me that much from it.
If I'm a planning to screw over people for more power and money, I'd try it on the poorest and least intelligent folks with minimum resources. The only problem is that so many people are doing it already that I have a lot of competition...but that is just the same old after all. Known oppression leads to only boredom and new things are more exciting after all.
Yeah I was going to say that, but it's not always true in this situation! so it's an easily refutable point! but it does TEND to be true!
Kayin, how does Occam's Razor not apply in this case? How would you refute it?
Humans are very irrational and tend to make more of a mess out of a situation than is necessary. Now, Occam's Razor is pretty much saying
"While maintaining all known facts to be true, the best/most accurate solution is probably the simplest"
In the case of humans in general, or even worse, conspiracy theories, people can't even agree on all the facts to begin with. We pretty much never understand a situation well enough with people to apply the razor to a situaiton, as opposed to say like, math I guess. That'd be pretty clear cut. Theres no "Substraction was on her period today and was cranky!" to deal with!
So to say "Pfft, this stuff is dumb, occam's razor" doesn't really say much! It's also sorta saying that their scenario is also factually viable, which is often not the case! So really, throwing that out there isn't particularly useful imo.
Well what I mean is that in one case, we have a conspiracy of hundreds of people! These people all have to be master planners, capable of keeping secrets, with long term plans, and execute a complex, difficult plan! And this plan has not much marginal benefit for them!
Or in the other case, we have people behaving like humans have been known to do, due to advances in behavioral psychology and behavioral finance!
Well I agree, but I don't think anyone we'd argue against would buy that alone as any sort of argument! Because by their assumptions, the Razor may very well support them!
Instead we have to go "No, it supports US and here's why" -- IE: What you just said. Basically it means we have to have a semi real argument if anyone actually tries to go along with this.
That's pretty much a waste of time, because it's impossible to prove a negative! So you'll never prove there is no conspiracy.
That's why I'd rather prove that they are dumb!
This thread is a conspiracy about conspiracy theories which in itself is a conspiracy which is a over story for the real conspiracy which is exploiting people's lack of understanding over conspiracies to conspire to grab lots of money to futher the grand conspiracy of obtaining power to build a conspiracy over mankind!
There is no need. Just figure out all possible conspiracies of equal probability and greater and assign equal effort into their probability and you'd get a rational result.
The problem isn't that there is conspiracy theories, the problem is that those conspiracy theorists don't know if a real conspiracy comes and rapes them up the ass.
How do they know their own sources of knowledge is not a conspiracy? How do they know that the apparent conspiracy is actually a conspiracy to distract conspiracy theorists or to discredit them? How do they know that their own senses are not begin deceived by psychological biased used by others to manipulate them?
The problem with them is not in coming up with conspiracies, but their thinking is so rigid as to being complete incapable of evaluating all the other possibilities and understand the very limits of their understanding.
The problem isn't having a story, but clutching to one story out of the millions of them possible and refusal to evaluate another one.
From my understanding, when combined, plots of the world benefit Americans due to the fact that it is easier to exploit less resourceful people than Americans while America's power serves as a good leveraging point and most Americans benefit from the windfall. You don't even need to lift a finger for the company you hold stock to screw over some third world population or have the US govt pressure some government into a puppet that do their bidding at expense of their population. It is not even secret, with a number of activities admitted to now that it is all set and done.
My personal opinion is that it's far more likely people are either doing this intentionally (individually or as a collective group) and it being entirely premeditated, rather than the crap going on now to be purely by chance. Sure, it may not be a collaborative world-wide effort as is claimed by the conspiracy theorists, but when you look at what caused the derivatives crash, for example, and who lobbied for laws to be changed so that it could happen, and look at who exploited everything on the way up and on the way down, you can't deny the crash was entirely intentional and by design, at least by the few that had big interests doing so.
For those of you who disagree, look up 'derivatives bubbles' and try to understand that no matter what you happen to own or loan or do, no matter how risky the venture you invest in is (actually, riskier is better), if you use certain financial tricks that were not possible until derivatives came into existence, and as long as you have enough money (banks as corporations have as much money as they wish to loan, by the way; look it up), you can do one thing (give out cheap loans; remember that?) to inflate the market and make boatloads of money doing so, and another (bet on the loans defaulting) to earn boatloads of money when you crash the market, and pay all your 'profits' as bonuses to yourself.
Now, understandably, banks lose all the money they loaned when things crash, which represents a sizable chunk of money (trillions, usually), but that's why you bet against the market crashing, so that you can save all of it but still report profits and pay execs as the market inflates. If you make a mistake in that regard, all you need to do is report losses and demand a bailout (and pay most of it as bonuses; remember that too?). That being said, we've seen three major industry/market crashes since derivatives came into existence maybe a decade and a half ago. Make sense of that without resorting to 'conspiracy theories'. There's no way people would be that stupid, first of all, about derivatives and their potential harm or how easily they could be exploited unless they wanted it to be that way, and there's no way it wouldn't be outlawed by now unless someone had connections in high places (as well as owning all the major news corporations).
Admittedly, not all banks did this intentionally, nor did they have tons of money in politicians, which is why some went out of business and others didn't. The key thing here is that all it takes is one bank to do it; they could probably inflate the market themselves if they orchestrated it well enough, but failing that if they can sucker a couple of other banks into doing it as well out of ignorance or greed, the question becomes not if there will be a collapse but when it happens and how many billions of dollars this bank will pay out as bonuses.
All I've got to say is, Goldman Sachs and other large banks (but Goldman Sachs far more than any other bank) have their hands in the tax-payers left pocket, right pocket, back pockets, and chest pockets right now, considering how many former Goldman players Barrack Obama has appointed, so if anything else I would agree that the bailout itself was just a tax-grab for banks. Bare minimum, people are trying to steal your money and doing it through the government by demanding new regulations be passed, and/or getting their friends who were appointed into the government to help them out. Bare minimum.
Anything else is up in the air at the moment. But keep this in mind; here are the predictions that Alex Jones specifically (or his affiliates) have made:
-The Cap and Trade carbon tax is an exact duplicate of the system that banks have exploited for ages, but without the crash and bailout; banks can now just steal your money at no risk to themselves because the government decides how valuable the carbon credits are
-The H1N1 vaccine is designed to be harmful rather than helpful, and the world's governments are, at this moment, covering up a plague in the Ukraine that is composed of a fusion of the H1N1 vaccines nasal spray, the H1N1 virus, and other seasonal vaccines, has infected over 1 million people, and killed 300 in it's first week, possibly by burning people's lungs black (whether that is pre or post-mortem is unknown), so that a world panic can be created
Some older predictions that may come true soon:
-The U.S., Canada, and Mexico will join together in a North American union like E.U., and move most of U.S. jobs to Mexico
-The U.S.D. is dropping like a rock and when it hits the bottom, a new world currency (or a replacement currency like the yen) will be instituted where everyone with offshore money profits from the exchange
-If the U.S.D. stops falling and starts recovering, a national 'sensationalist' panic will be instituted to encourage people to invest in the U.S.D. to secure their money after the insiders have moved their money back into America, so that the dollar hits sky-high
These are allegedly according to 'their' own documents, 'their' being just about anyone connected through the Bilderberg group and the Trilateral Commission. If these predictions start coming true, I suggest you guys take this a bit more seriously.
But of course it could be a load of crock. Only time will tell.
Cap and Trade is what happens when you let free market ideologues think about how they'd solve an environmental crisis. I find it particularly funny to see the completly unironic suggestion that this is a form of big government interference. Ask any militant environmentalist/ecologist or socialist what they *really* think of Cap and Trade...
The alternatives to Cap and Trade are *actual government legislation* to limit emissions, or burying your head in the sand and say there isn't a problem (which is, apparently, the solution for free marketer ideologues who think even Cap and Trade has too much government in it).
Instead you get this thing where the government just says "Here is the max number of emissions we're allowed to do this year" and then allows the worse polluters every stupid loophole like giving money to people who plant trees, or such bullshit, or buy emission credits on the free market from those people who actually do reduce their emissions and thus have extras to distribute.
If there's something you can count on from wackos on both the Left and Right, it's being opposed to vaccines.
Newsflash: most US jobs have already moved to Mexico, and there's no NAU. If anything, Canada and Mexico should be the ones afraid of a NAU, because we all know it's just going to be a dummy imperialist organisation where the USA has all the power and other nations have to bow down to it, like the U.N., World Bank and WTO.
The USD is dropping like a rock because the economy is crap due to throwing away money on useless foreign aggression wars. Ask Germany how the value of it's money fared after WWI...
Alex Jones makes predictions that any person with half a brain could make, and then asserts this as proof of conspiracy and intent.
Actualie economists prefer a carbon tax. Carbon emissions are a negative externality, and a carbon tax is the way which would neutralize it with the least amount of deadweight losses. But a carbon tax is politically infeasible, so we get a cap and trade instead.
DjinnFor's post: tl;dr
Letting the worst polluters keep polluting through markets is a good thing, loopholes such as tree-planting money are not. Assuming you set your cap right or your tax right, both work.
In cap-and-trade the government doesn't decide the price of carbon.
Financial crises are very old things. There were lots of bad ones before the Great Depression. Did the conspiracy go back that far?
Don't want to get dragged into this so I'll summarize my position:
1 - conspiracy theories are the realm of the intellectually-lazy who don't want to study something in depth and thus take refuge in making shit up and connecting unrelated facts in a seemingly total theory that's in fact a hodge-podge of old and new, fictional and real through the prism of a mind that's too partial to properly research such things.
2 - Capital (notice the capital C there) wishes it was as smart and coordinated as these people make it out to be. It's not as smart or as organized both by design and inherent flaw.
3 - Occam's razor.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure what you're trying to advance here is that Cap and Trade has less government in it than a government-mandated Carbon tax, and that my primary problem with a Cap and Trade system is that it has too much government. Right so far? The fact that I mentioned banks, not government (privately owned, my friend), and that it's called Cap and TRADE, means you need to go read up on economics.
Start with "Derivatives Bubble", then read about how the government will be increasing the cost of credits per year, and then look up on how former members of the biggest banks, like Goldman Sachs, hooked up with Al Gore to invest money in a Carbon Tax trading company that will buy and sell said credits. If you had a stock called a Carbon Credit that increased in value by a minimum of $10 per year for fifty years, you'd be pretty darn rich because of it too. And no, nothing will be traded on the free market with Al Gore scooping up and hoarding the credits and watching himself grow money out of thin air... all because some idiot decided Carbon Credits carry over each year. You'd think a simple oversight like that could be fixed, no?
What's good about vaccines? Hell, I know several qualified medical doctors who are against them. While I'm sure grown adults can handle being injected with viruses, I've yet to see the health benefits of injecting live or even somewhat pacified viruses into year old babies with still-developing immune systems. Add to that the fact that the recommended maximum daily intake of mercury in one day is usually tripled or quadrupled or quintupled when you go get the whole set of shots as an infant.
And see Ukraine; partially live vaccine + 5 seasonal flu's =/= healthy.
Newsflash: that doesn't mean it's not going to happen, nor that there isn't an intent to do so for the reason I specified.
My point wasn't to explain why it's dropping, only how people are to take advantage of it. And besides, in a globally recovering economy, how is the U.S. still going down? Canada recovered in April. And has Alex Jones not asserted that said wars were the result of a conspiracy as well? If you weren't aware of that I apologize.
I think you're just going out of your way to cover your ears and shout "I can't hear you", or else you're incredibly ignorant of what Alex Jones is and has been talking about. I listed these predictions without bothering to mention the conspiracy and intent, and now you're basing your opinion off of him with what little I bothered to throw in a post that took me five minutes to write. I'm sure 'anyone with half a brain' could have predicted 9/11, as well; the government sure as hell didn't. But then I was watching in 2000 when he mentioned that there would be a catastrophic event on the United States that would push the government into making all sorts of security measures that would violate several parts of the Constitution. And oh, hey, it happened; surprise, surprise.
Tell that to the U.S and the idiots who wrote the Bill. The Bill is in the Senate right now (or else it's been passed); you can go read it online if you'd like. The Government is increasing the price by $10 per year for 50 years.
Separate names with a comma.