Margalis has crossed a line

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Karrius, Aug 7, 2011.

  1. Kai-

    Kai- Well-Known Member

    The only post I can see in regard to editing or deleting posts is this one by Loot Pile, which is iffy as evidence for a deleted or edited post at best. Kindly link the other post that makes this claim as well.
  2. Margalis

    Margalis Banned

    Kindly find it yourself smart guy.

    I'm still waiting to hear why I should do the bidding of anyone in this thread when goalposts are moved without end.
  3. Kai-

    Kai- Well-Known Member

    If you state something, the burden of proof is on you. Also, I did search every page of this thread by control-f the words 'edit' and 'del'. So it seems like you pulled this mystery post out of the air unless they described what Winter supposedly did without using the words edit or delete.

    Also, I haven't changed the goalposts at all in regard to what I've been saying - your interactions with other posters should have no impact on yours with me.
  4. Margalis

    Margalis Banned

    Sure, but I don't care to prove what I said because you'll just move on to your next point regardless.

    I have what, maybe 4 different people trying to make demands of me in this thread, and before I even get a chance to answer they are already moving goalposts, revising what they said, hedging, etc. So sorry, my best response is to not take requests.

    You can choose to believe me or not. Honestly I don't really give a shit which it is. If you don't believe me what happens? You find out where I live and assault me? Maybe I'm misremembering and am actually wrong...I care? At this point what is this accomplishing?

    Burden of proof? This isn't a court - it's a thread started by a moron who wanted to flame me some more. The first post in this thread is 90% both stupid and false. Funny how the burden of proof falls on me but Karrius vomits up a load of nonsensical bullshit and that's cool. I'm supposed to try really hard to satisfy you by providing extensive documentation for my claims while Karrius says utterly retarded shit like I think criticizing LoL shouldn't be allowed and you don't object to that?

    LoL? If you want to make this into some sort of fact-finding mission start with the first post.

    If you want to troll just keep trolling, whatever. If you genuinely want to sort out fact from fiction demand proof for all the claims here, not just mine.
  5. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    I really don't like banning people, ever. A lot of people have asked for it now though, unusually many. Would you consider finding another forum, Margalis? I don't know what else to do here, everyone seems pretty unhappy.
  6. Margalis

    Margalis Banned

    I would like to make a few points if I may:

    1. There are a number of threads I participate in without incident. (Many of them ongoing right now)

    2. Not only was this thread created specifically to attack me while I was also being attacked in the LoL thread but now there is another MOBA thread that in the *second* post turned into an unprovoked attack on me.

    3. There are a number of posters here who will attack me simply for posting, then turn around and complain that I am trolling.

    You may remember that about a month ago there was thread created here specifically to insult me in which people started to bring up old crap about my gender. (of all things lol) If I post something completely innocuous in a thread I am immediately down voted and tags insulting me are added to the thread. There are a number of people who will drive-by troll me just on principle, or insult me in threads they don't think I am reading just out of spite.

    Is it a huge surprise that I'm a little testy? Look at this thread. The first post in this thread is almost entirely false. (I can easily document that) What is the line I crossed here? It's apparently that I said that posting PMs to the public is classless. (A statement I completely stand behind) That's what this thread is about!

    The main reason I would not like to leave the site is that I think it would be a win for the small-minded bullies here. You can see now that KayinN, who I think is a great poster, is getting down voted in threads where he talks politely to me just because (I suspect, obviously I cannot prove this) that he is congenial with me. They are bullies. For example:

    -Y- seems like a fine guy to me, I can't remember him ever really saying anything bad to anybody. But here Karrius is attacking him in a bizarrely personal manner for the crime of just asking that people move on and not siding with the Karrius/Winter clique.

    There are people in this thread who have said nice things about me. But they are concise, say it once and move on, while people like Sotek post 5 or 6 times saying the same thing, attempting to win out on sheer volume.

    I am perfectly willing to abide by rules that say if I troll anyone I'm gone and if anyone trolls me they are gone. That seems fair and I highly doubt that people like Winter would agree to it.

    But what seems less fair to me is Winter sends a bunch of PMs to people trying to organize a ban while he and his buddies continue to flame me across multiple threads and bully people who "defend" me even in the most innocuous ways imaginable.

    I don't think I've ever reported a post (maybe a long time ago) nor have I ever talked with anyone about banning anyone else. That's just not in my nature. Should I be punished for inferior political organizing?

    Why don't we ban me the next time I troll anyone, and ban anyone the next time they troll me? No exceptions. I will agree to that - I strongly suspect that Winter et al will not. Because it's clear that what they want to do is attack me with complete freedom then try to run to daddy when I do the same.

    What is the downside to that? I bet if you propose it you'll hear cries of bloody murder though.

    Edit: You can already see two tags added to this thread, even before I'm done posting this, that someone added to pile on, celebrating the fact that their bullying tactics have apparently worked. Would those people agree to be banned for trolling? I'm guessing no.
  7. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    I dislike margalis and want him to leave. Having said that, I dont think he did anything so bad as to deserve a ban, note that say if he leaves I would be happier and so would many. Maybe I would like to see people saying that they DONT want Margalis to leave?

    My point is if there is decent % of people there, that would be sad of Margalis leaving i would like to see then voice it. I would even be sad to see Margalis leave of his presence is really productive to some people.

    So far though the number of people I know would not be happy if Margalis would stop posting inmediatly is Zero. So maybe I would like to know if that number is any higher.
  8. Margalis

    Margalis Banned

    This is where my 90 alt accounts save me!
  9. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    Can we at least keep the other MOBA thread free of this crap?
  10. Kayin

    Kayin Well-Known Member

    I told a few people I wasn't going to post here but it turns out I'm a liar. So I'll give my fairly neutral position. This is only how I see it, so my perspective is anything but factual. I'm going to make a few assumptions.

    First off, I like Marg's post. Now, my situation is different than most -- I actually work on stuff. I like practical, real information and sorta get annoyed by ideological nonsense or just really useless theory craft. Most people here just want to have stimulating and challenging conversation and are not looking for what I'm looking for. In fact, most (though not all) of my favorite posters are people that usually aren't particularly liked. Not because they're disliked, but because they tend to have more "player centric" positions and thus sorta carry the.... confrontational of competitive gaming with them. So, to a degree, I would miss Marg.

    On the OTHER hand, my user case is NOT typical around here. I'm not sure my enjoyment is worth the damage Marg causes. I hear about stuff like the MOBA thread and I cringe a bit. ALso more people would probably make more interesting threads if conversations weren't derailed due to Marg's presence.

    Now comes the rough part. In my mind Marg was a pretty serious troll for a long time and even now can be quite trollish. Marg, you can admit to being at least a bit of a trouble maker, right? You've also, in the past, built up a lot of bad faith. Even if you're mostly behaving now, your reputation still follows you and I don't think it's fair to treat people going after you as some sort of conspiracy. They're pissed due to your prior record.

    Now, I sympathize partially. I do think people go after Marg too hard and inappropriately. I don't think this community is very skilled at handling trolls. Part of the reason I've often become friendly with them is because I know you guys can't drive them off, and I know Sirlin won't ban them, so I might as well try and make it so I don't have to deal with bullshit every other post. Downvoting decent posts just because it's someone you think is often trolling usually doesn't help the issue -- it generally makes them push back harder. The zealous nature of these forums are one of my least favorite things about them All that said, even if all of you were acting like a bunch of socially inept autistic kids, it wouldn't change the fact that Marg dug his own hole and has not been responding appropriately to fix the situation.

    I actually like Marg's solution though. It has logistic issues (who decides when Marg is a troll? I think we'd need a few people to vote and Sirlin would have to agree to it), but I'd rather have Margalis work out these issues than see him go. But I'd also rather see him go then see the majority of the forum suffer from it.

    Marg, regardless of whether or not we work out some banning criteria or whatever, there is only one way for you to really get out of this. You have to eat your pride. The only way you will get over your bad reputation is to suck it up. Not act innocent and play the victim when people come down on you. You have to be humble and apologetic. You can't just reset peoples perceptions of people, you have to, in a sense, repay your social debt. You have to acknowledge that people have reasons to be pissed at you... and again, you can't use that to play the victim, or else no one will take your sincerely. Even if you think they're dead wrong, even if, somehow, you are not at fault for your reputation, this is STILL what you need to do if you want the community to forgive you.

    The people I've talked to don't think you can do it. Frankly I'm inclined to agree. I don't think you're as bad as they say (though I definitely don't view you as 'innocent' by any stretch), but I do feel you have a lot of pride and I don't think you'll be willing to choke that down. I'd like to be wrong.
  11. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    Margalis asked me to put a good word for him in a private message, here is what I will do. NOTE: I dislike the PM, though I'd "defend" him anyway.

    +1 to Kayin. Man knows how to express himself (except for Margalis' solution no idea what that is).

    First thing I kinda like Margalis. I like shaggy dogs, one eyed cats and ostracized members. And he had some interesting ideas and had a lot of highly rated posts (way more than me).
    Also I'm definitely against a ban. I don't think ban will help return L0cust (did all those people return when FinalSlayer left?) or Riot members to this forums even if it did caused them.

    Second my message to you Margalis. Same as Kayin said. Man up, swallow your pride, don't get into a fight when provoked (you do seem to have a hair long fuse). IIRC you started flaming WinterArays in oldschool MOBA thread even though he really didn't even mentioned you [post]. If you merely asked for getting in on some oldschool action sans accusation you'd probably had some nice time and even get to kick WA's ass a few times ;)

    Not to mention is that if WinterArays is what you claim he is (emotionally unstable) then not responding or responding in a more mild manner would prove more effective. Do you fix an unstable chair by kicking its legs? Basically, take a more civil and less aggressive stance cause I'd hate to see you go :(
  12. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    So I was reading stuff on the internet recently

    http://leadershipwithstyle.com/2010/10/removing-toxic-employees/

    I heard it's bad to post links without some opinion of my own for discussion! So my opinion is that there are tons and tons of smart people with great ideas out there. A whole load of them. If someone has a significant negative impact on other people, it doesn't matter how genius they are, they are not worth it. That is because the tiny good part you see (occasionally they post something good) is far outweighed by the invisible negative impacts (chilling effect, lowered quality of discussion, drive other good posters away, waste other people's time on unproductive discussion)
  13. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    Well yeah, but that's for employees, I mean none of us (with very few exceptions) is doing something for Sirlin, let alone anything productive? Face it we are more like a group of random bored people than anything resembling an employee.
  14. Kai-

    Kai- Well-Known Member

    Garcia is using an analogy to illustrate his point. Obviously the sirlin.net forum community isn't a work-place or anything of the sort, but having a 'toxic employee (member)' still drags down the community more than their presence props it up.
  15. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    Have we already reached that point? That you guys feel he can't ever change? That you did you're best, because garcia's quote says as much.
  16. Margalis

    Margalis Banned

    You've are alluding to a lot of stuff that I am not privy to. Apparently you have had multiple conversations with people about this via PM or chat or whatever. -Y- makes some offhand remark about Locust and Riot employees being driven away.

    I have absolutely no idea what you guys are talking about. I don't chat, I don't PM people. (Until this week!)

    What I see is a three line excerpt of someone attacking me in a chat thread turned into a forum post. If the context of that is that excerpt comes from a discussion where Locust is saying he is going to stop posting because of something I did (I'm just kind of winging it here because I have no idea wtf you guys are talking about!) that is wildly different from someone excerpting just the little bit that attacks me without any of that context.

    One of those things says "you are being disruptive and scaring away genuinely valuable posters" and the other says "we had some fun bashing you in chat that was so awesome we just had to copy it into a thread."

    I have never, until literally right this second, heard of anyone leaving these forums because of me. (That I can recall at least) Not from them, not from a third party. Not from someone who wanted to say "hey, maybe you should cool it because this guy is threatening to leave" or from someone flaming the fuck out of me for driving away a valuable member.

    I don't know if this Locust thing is true but if so why the hell aren't people attacking me for that instead of this inane bullshit! "You are driving away people like Locust" is a hell of a lot more sobering and convincing than a guy flaming me because I had the nerve to suggest that posting PMs was in poor taste.

    If I did something to drive away Locust or some Riot employees I will apologize for that in a heartbeat and do what I can to bring them back and make that right.

    Not to shift the blame onto other people for bad reporting skillz but why, with all the flaming that has been going on for weeks about increasingly irrelevant crap, is that being brought up for the first time now? Like of all the things people could attack me for that is the one they choose to leave out?

    I'm not saying it is their fault but that information certainly puts a different spin on things. I'm not a mind reader.

    Ugh. I'm going to bed. If I wake up banned it's been nice knowing y'all!
  17. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    Some of us are better at pattern recognition than others!
  18. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    True, but you know what they say about human pattern recognition. It has too many false positives.
  19. Karrius

    Karrius Well-Known Member

    Marg's solution cannot work. Note that he tried to bait/troll CWheezy in the LoL thread, where CWheezy didn't say a thing to him, and then started whining that CWheezy was making a jab at him in the MOBA thread and whined when people didn't jump on CWheezy for doing so.

    And we trust this guy to not attack other people without provoked?

    No - what's going to happen is that he's going to attack other people, and then make up bullshit reasons they were provoked and try to get others banned or to shit all over threads.
  20. Karrius

    Karrius Well-Known Member

    Margalis supporters - how do you feel about the fact that Margalis constantly claims he's as good as top 500 players at games he's shown no indication of actually playing ever?
  21. Kayin

    Kayin Well-Known Member

    The problem is we aren't just "not a corporation", we don't even represent any normal social structure. Most situations theres usually either power you can appeal to either remove a person, or at least greatly encourage someone to go away. In older times, we could, at a certain point, just beat people to death with rocks. The only way you can get away from someone here is to leave. I really don't like how banning (or the lack there of) is handled here. Even when we managed to talk FinalSlayer away (I have NO idea how that worked), it was already after he caused incredible damage that could have easily been avoided with earlier action.

    If I can't count on administrative action, then my policy is to try and minimize damage, be nice and just try and encourage the troublesome posters to post better. Marg should have been banned a long time ago. If there is any upshot to him not being banned, it's the faint possibility that he can get his shit together.

    Yeah I misread what Marg said and missed the part about 'banning other people'. Herpderp. Sirlin would never agree to that -- and he shouldn't. Still, I think putting Marg on a 'parole' of sorts where the end game would be banning -- and judging by his tone, Sirlin might agree to this. I doubt Marg would -- but he doesn't have to. Though if Margalis is just banned out right, I will totally understand and still support the decision, but if we're going to keep troublesome people around this long, I think it makes sense for us to at least try and 'reform' them when we can.

    In short, I support action -- either banning Marg or telling him what he needs to do to not be banned and holding him to it.
  22. Margalis

    Margalis Banned

    The zero tolerance policy for others I suggested was a little silly, yeah. I just want to avoid the situation where people are encouraged to troll me continuously without repercussion.

    I suppose people would eventually get bored of that though.
  23. ryzol

    ryzol Member

    Margalis makes useful posts. It just seems like he takes small things too personally, blows them out of proportion and then loses perspective. If he could relax a little and ignore others things would be smoother. What is the value in responding to a personal attack?

    I don't see how making comments about Sotek playing witchhunt is relevant OR helpful. Stuff like that doesn't make a person likeable.
  24. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    Again, this is a non sequitur.
  25. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    It seems like if this was the only thing you wanted, you'd just leave? OR, you could start an alt account and try not to piss people off this time.

    But all this blahblahblah drama leads me to believe that no, that's not actually what you want. You enjoy this bullshit discussion that ruins thread after thread. I don't think anyone here buys the "I've been wronged, so these endless trash posts are for JUSTICE" argument.

    Want to prove me wrong? Stop posting in this thread, ever. Stop responding to "trolls." FFS stop PMing people. Think carefully about whether you are contributing to the community when you hit that "submit reply" button. Right now I am imagining Margalis++ that only posts great posts like the ones in the DSP HDR thread. I think such a Margalis is possible if you just stop attacking and counterattacking and countercounterattacking and countercountercounterattacking...
  26. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    Sirlin frowns upon alt accounts and likes openness about identity to the best of my knowledge. (Anyone can feel free to contradict me if I am mistaken)
  27. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Kayin's posts are factually inaccurate. Sirlin does ban people if the community requests it, and FinalSlayer's account was banned after a lot of boring drama.

    Margalis is a boring troll putting on the fake tears and misrepresenting events. He's relying on the bureaucracy of the system to protect him. Not banning him would set a terrible precedent.

    "He sometimes posts good things" is not a proper argument against banning him. The negative effects he has far outweigh those. We don't need him and he's not worth keeping. He's also not worth all this attention. Just get rid of him so we can talk about more interesting things instead.
  28. Kayin

    Kayin Well-Known Member

    I was probably not posting when FinalSlayer got banned, but was active when we 'politely asked him to go away'. Or maybe I wasn't? My memory of the events of us asking him to leave are very clear, so even if I was around, I have forgotten.

    But I don't want anyone to be misled by the failings of my memory, so... what Lofo said. Still, on a day to day basis, this act of god is so rare and so rarely even considered that I am forced to act assuming it will never come.

    I find that terribly silly.
  29. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Ok it's done, let's try to move on. I don't like doing it, but I can see the community was feeling a chilling effect and wanted something done.
  30. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    For what it's worth, I thought Margalis had insightful posts on occasion... I'm not convinced his only intention was to cause flame wars/troll. That said I agree with the choice to ban him. Basically it'd got to the point where even if he had a valid point, his negative reputation (which he was completely responsible for bringing upon himself) was so strong he'd simply be ignored or refuted out of spite. I don't know how everyone else feels on the matter, but I wouldn't mind seeing him attempt a fresh start under a new name, hopefully wiser for his mistakes/as a result of 'constructive' criticism.

    So I guess what I'm saying is Margalis, if you're reading this, I for one have faith in your capacity for change and would like seeing your ideas return to the community as a blank slate... hopefully with a more optimistic attitude.
  31. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    that's not what "ban" means
  32. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    pattern recognition, how does it work?!
  33. icewolf34

    icewolf34 Well-Known Member

    Uh I dunno, I kind of like it that way actually. I have no opinion on this last banning besides that I hope bannings remain extremely rare. I agree with people who said that Margalis occasionally had very good posts that few other people would have made.


    Anyways recently I was in a thread where people were making fun of Margalis. And I thought to myself, wtf he hasn't even posted here, why are people bringing him up.

    But it turned out it was just that all of his posts in the thread were hidden already from too many downvotes. (They were bad posts, btw.)
  34. Kayin

    Kayin Well-Known Member

    This is terrible.

    So what does thos policy actually allow? What are the actual ramifications? We're put in a very strange situation. As I said before, this place is very much unlike any way humans usually interact. We really have any sufficient ability to respond to trolls. If Sirlin acts, it's longer after the troll did their damage. Godzilla already wrecked Tokyo. Marg and FS did their good share of damage to the community and there are users we'll never get back (LIKE ACTUAL GAME DESIGNERS working on LoL).

    So what does this encourage from the community? With a lack of authority, mob justice becomes the only possible defense. It promotes tribalism. Members basically try and place death curses on users, and when other users refuse to ignore them, we get more conflict. It's "us vs them". This place already gets accused of groupthink enough and this sort of behavior does not help. In fact, I'd say this sort of behavior is downright embarrassing. Sadly. it's often what needs to be done to try and do ANYTHING against a troll... and it's still not much. Mob justice is pretty weak when all you can do is say mean things and press the "(-) Post" button. Often time this just encourages the person to make MORE noise and be MORE of a dick.

    Also with no fear of retribution, troublesome posters have no reason to stop. I've been in community leadership positions in a number of communities and even just a warning can turn some people around. Sometimes they just need a nudge to behave. If they don't they eventually get banned. Right now getting banned is almost an accomplishment!

    Now none of this even requires banning more people. If I try and list the people in my head who may have deserved a ban at some point, it would be FS, Margalis, Polarity and Beast of Burden. BoB, being a decent poster now, probably would have just needed to be warned. So the difference isn't that "more people need to be banned" it's that people need to be banned (or warned) proactively. We knew FOREVER that FS was terrible and would never ge better. Marg was pretty obvious too and was actually, I think, WORSE at some point. If these users were cut off sooner, we likely would have more posters and the community would not be forced to behave like howler monkeys.

    kayinrp: So I think the zero moderation (or 0.1% moderation) system has like, 0, (or 0.1%) advantages. To me, it brings out the absolute worst in the community.
  35. icewolf34

    icewolf34 Well-Known Member

    What's the proposal for identifying and banning people who need to be banned? Surely it would look very much like it looks now. I imagine Sirlin isn't keen to spend his copious spare time actively looking for bannables. I also think we don't really want moderators with ban power.

    You call out the issue as 'lack of authority'. Okay, so who do you propose as the authority?

    ---
    Actually, it seems like we both agree that bannings are rarely required. Of course I agree that if someone needs to be banned, it might as well happen sooner rather than later. So, I'm not sure what part of my post you consider terrible.
  36. Kayin

    Kayin Well-Known Member

    Historically I've always grabbed on to this sort of thing when no one's wanted to do it. But really, there are a bunch of people. Thelo and Lofo, come immediately to mind.

    You could do this a number of ways. I'm not going to pretend I could propose 'the best' method or anything, but delegating power is probably in Sirlin's best interest. Any reasonable action is probably better than no action. I'm on a lot of forum communities -- small forum communities. I'll say, mod abuse tends to be fairly rare among adult posters. Most of the drama of mod abuse in my experience tends to be "WHY WAS THIS TOPIC LOCKED" and almost never "Why was this guy left to inflict deem wounds upon the community". We have many people (including my self, actually) who would be very hesitant to ban -- just not to this level.

    So we can make someone an mod/admin, or choose some people who can help propose bans and warnings with the assurance that Sirlin will take their requests seriously, or even just a statement that community grievances will be acted upon much sooner in the future and hope, that since these things happen relatively rarely, that such a policy would not take much out of Sirlin's time.

    Basically I don't have the answer, but I think we the community and, to the extent in which eh can spare time for this discussion, Sirlin, should figure out a way for us all to handle these situations expediently in the future so we can all act like civilized human beings.
  37. icewolf34

    icewolf34 Well-Known Member

    I mean, turnaround time from thread posting to actual banning was 4 days. Maybe people need to be proactive about that.

    WHY WAS THIS TOPIC LOCKED drama is still incredibly lame, btw. And with or without mods, I continue to stand by my statement that I hope bannings remain rare and yes, rarely considered.

    I admit that I think it's an interesting experiment to see if a community can adapt to either socialize or totally ignore/shun trolls.
  38. Kayin

    Kayin Well-Known Member

    That could be true! I would even just be happy with Sirlin saying "As much as I hate doing it, if you guys all make it clear something is wrong, I promise to try and act on it", that'd be lovely. Even banning marg is a step forward in that respect.

    I also think that thinking is all wrong. It's not that "Bans should be rare" or whatever -- It's not like theres a ban quota or anything. The hope should always be that bans should be UNNECESSARY and bans that are necessary should happen and happen in a timely manner. What "necessary" is varies from community to community and I think, just by the sheer tiny size of this community, that bans will always continue to be rare -- it's just a matter of them happening when they should and before too much damage can be done.

    And as the experiment shows, we cannot universally shun trolls. Even if we could, that would be a type of tribalism that would risk even being deadlier than the trolls themselves. As for socializing them, that is a nice thing that happened with BoB, but sadly the community can't even agree on that. I think we need a minimalist way to capitalize on our strengths while minimizing our DANGEROUS weaknesses.
  39. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    I think the goal is, like

    High quality community
    Free speech
    No bannings, instead use community to enforce norms
    Real names?

    Somewhere the causation got confused, though
  40. Kayin

    Kayin Well-Known Member

    I always found the 'free speech' thing dubious. I certainly don't look at a forum as some sort of sovereign state. The thing that makes free speech work is you don't have to listen to people. People organize themselves into various, regulated groups that can deal with adverse individuals in various ways (from kicking them out of the house to getting fired). In none of these situations is tolerating obnoxious motherfuckers considered noble (unless you work in the mental health industry I guess).

    Now I understand a lot of this comes from how Sirlin things MMO's should be ran -- and actually I do agree, it would work out in an MMO if done right. That's because MMO's form social structures and guilds and group chats that can appeal to indvidual sensitivities. Here, we're basically all crammed into a room together. While we have various sub boards, for the post part the forums are indivisible. We're not an MMO, where its one structure filled with groups like any real public place. You can't "go somewhere else" to continue a conversation safely with a bunch of people without actually leaving the forum. Not only are we not divisible, we're SMALL and intimate. It's not a particularly good way to build a community. Communities generally form to create safe spaces for people to interact. When one is afraid to talk out of fear of a jerk shooting you down, you get the chilling effect.
  41. icewolf34

    icewolf34 Well-Known Member

    I feel like there has to be some sort of misunderstanding about my original statement somehow. Forums where banning is frequent are almost always unhealthy forums, in my experience*. That doesn't mean that the way you get a good flame- and ban-free forum is a ban quota (or I think you really mean 'limit' here). The way you get a good forum is by having overall good conversation and a community that likes to talk things out instead of having flame wars with newbies or outsiders. We do okay with this, but there's also a history of potentially reasonable posters getting pushed over the edge and eventually turning into problems.

    Now, the question still remains of what to do with really exceptional cases where you really can't socialize the problem individual. I guess the two proposals are having a thread like this whenever there is a problem, or having a moderator that actively trawls for bad posters.

    ----
    * I secretly do enjoy watching the actions of really despotic moderators**, so if you know of a forum where bans are frequent AND conversation is good, I'd love to read it.
    ** Like, I used to read insomnia forums just to watch the ridiculous and arbitrary banhammers falling, despite the lack of any actual conversation.
  42. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    Teamliquid used to be the example of good and heavy moderation, but the quality of discussion did go down a good deal with the influx of SC2 players. I also agree with the chilling effect that Kayin describes, but you can't really be bothered by it. No matter how many people you ban/moderate/etc. it's going to exist on these forums.
  43. Kayin

    Kayin Well-Known Member

    Agree with the "too many bans" thing to an extent. Places that are bad because of that aren't banning when it's needed usually, they're banning excessively. Unless, again, it's old TL.

    I think when it comes to socialization, again, having some amount of power helps. When an admin says "yo, cut the shit" or even issues a temp ban (oh god how novel would that of been to deal with someone like BoB early on when he was angier?), you can get a pretty good impression of who has the capacity to change and who doesn't. Compare there to here, previous to Marg's banning, when they basically get the impression that they can do whatever they want until someone basically flips out and shoots them. That's... not very effective.

    Now at least I can sorta wave Marg's head around on a pike if someone is being an asshole, which is an improvement, but is it enough? It might be, but considering how destructive these trolls have been in the past and the HORRIBLE turnover time in dealing with them, I think this should more of a conversation... and I think people are afraid to have it because they've been on forums ran by 14 year olds.
  44. SpicyCrab

    SpicyCrab Well-Known Member

    Look, I will just say what you are all thinking any way.

    It's obvious that we need a moderator, someone just and fair with just a hint of badass.

    And it's obvious there is only one man for the job.

    Me.

    So get to it.

    I promise to shirk my duties and visit very infrequently, I promise to ban people arbitrarily on the rare occasions where I do deign to visit these forums, and I also promise to be a thorn in Sirlins side who he begrudgingly accepts due to social pressures, personal convictions, and my beautiful crustaceous face.

    Finally; I promise to do the one thing that every one secretly yearns for yonder these parts... UNBAN FINAL SLAYER so that we can get some real quality discussions going on up in this bi-atch again.

    Vote SpicyCrab 2011!
  45. Joe Mello

    Joe Mello Member

    I may have asked this before, but does this forum have a sort of "moderated status" where a user's posts must first get approved by mods before posting?

    Most posts here walk the tightrope between thought-provoking discourse, and ASPD clusterfuck (of which I've been guilty of being in both), which can't make things easy, but if I had my way, mods would act firm and fast, but still act with discretion. They would also stand by their actions, which is something I can't tell if you are doing.
  46. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Few things i'd like to point out:
    1. For all of Kayin's talk of "wanting people with play experience" which i do respect(and i see the "lost in theorycraft" argument against these forums as well) Marg, at the very least in the LoL argument, did not represent that. Winter and Wheezy are not the only ones to talk about panth, and it's the gameplay experience we all shared that annoyed players when he began to bash things. His experience with DoTA was abysmal, but it never stopped him from theory crafting it into the ground. He might have been better in other topics, but that was certainly not the case in this one.

    2. I never bothered to play with his BS, and ignored his flame bait PM's. That said i find it hard to feel empathy for someone who could work up so much misguided hate over an internet discussion.
  47. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    +1 (which is incidentaly now 0).

    How about Sotek/ChadMiller for mayor? ;)
  48. Kayin

    Kayin Well-Known Member

    At this point, we're far past empathy for Marg. I even said my self, while I had a PREFERENCE to see if Marg could reform, any action involving a banning was good and I support the decision 100%. Anything I'm saying now has nothing to do with being annoyed that marg was banned. I have a lot of sympaths for the LoL players as that thread seemed to suffer FAR more than any thread I was interested in.

    Quite the opposite, what I'm saying is we need to deal with these problems SOONER.
  49. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    On the serious side, can we implement Hellban as a pre ban strategy? Hellban is basically this - no one except suspended can see their posts (they aren't hidden, they are invisible in a thread) and there is no indication a person is suspended or not. Each subsequent suspension lasts longer (e.g. 1st - 2 days, 2nd suspension - 4 days, etc.) I think this could have been done sooner to see if anyone would reform. Also major thing about Hellban is that no one knows (except the moderator and maybe the user) if it was implemented.
  50. alstein

    alstein Member

    Well, we've had 4 posters in 3 years worthy of being banned. That to me is a sign that heavy-handed moderation isn't needed. Margalis was easily over any reasonable line here though. (and kinda surprised cause I remember him from agsf2, most older folks don't get like that much)

    What I would suggest, in future, is that Sirlin take a good look at posters who have a ton of lower/lowest ranked posts, they're the ones who may be trolls.
    "Chilling Effect" is a decent standard- but it isn't really discrete. How do you define when someone has a chilling effect?

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