P4A

Discussion in 'Now Playing' started by Claytus, Aug 8, 2012.

  1. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    So, yeah... new ASW fighter is out. Who's playing it?

    I'm honestly super, super impressed with this game in a way I never expected to be. And a lot of it just comes down to the auto-combo. It sounds dumb on paper, but it just totally works. All 2d fighters are ultimately about positioning, but most of them have this weird tax on beginners before any of the movement systems really become a big deal, and players learn to start countering threats instead of just figuring out how to deal any damage in the first place.

    This one seems totally different, the auto-combo just naturally makes any hit potentially threatening, so learning movement and ranges is actually the first thing to do, and it helps that movement in the game is all super fun and super fast-paced. It also effectively solves the problem of giving players immediate access to one-button supers and dps without them being brokenly strong.

    I love that the lifebars seem super short. I love the instant kill stuff. Don't love that it seems like combos need super fast inputs, like, way faster than Marvel, but I can deal with it. Love the character variety (although realize it is on the simple end... doesn't live up to Blazblue or anything in terms of character differences). Love the status effects... although I'm sure I will rage when I find someone who can use confusion effectively. Don't love the air turn-around... why isn't that just automatic? Love the Evasion/Hop/Sweep/Furious Attack abilities.

    In before Sirlin: Throw break system is trash 0/10. But whatever, at least throws are actually threatening (supposedly every character can combo off a throw?).
  2. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    2 button throws and far worse than that...2 button SWEEP. A known-bad thing from ggx that was fixed in ggxx. Don't respond with "but you can macro it." My point is this indicates poor thinking on their part. I assume that designers who made a 2 button sweep just don't know what they are doing. I don't even know anything about the throws, but not surprising to hear those are 0/10.

    That said, the game could be totally great A+. I have no idea. I just auto-passed on it because I'm not able to imagine a great game coming from a 2-button-sweep team.

    I don't now what auto-combo means, but if it's something that makes a certain initial hit (like a jump in) do more damage when you're within range for a combo without needing to know much, that sounds good. If you got the right positioning on your hit, you deserver some more damage, sure.
  3. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    what's wrong with the throw break system?
  4. link6616

    link6616 Well-Known Member

    Auto combo basically does ABCD special super automatically for you if you just keep hitting A

    Now Claytus, I've gathered life is spent to do a few things, but I've never quite gathered what. Could you explain those things at all?
  5. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    link oh ok. Seems fine.

    I know that the universal dragon punch thing costs life, and has no motion required. I'm sort of curious on that. I could see that being bad, but I could see it being good too. The bad part is that even though it puts a cost on easy dragon punches, there is still no case where a meaty attack hits. So it still seems to have the same old problem with easy dragon punches. (A meaty attack will be blocked, or it will be reversal'd, but it won't actually hit, so the reward for trying one is lower than in, say, SF2.)
  6. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    As far as I can tell, there's only one throw command, and breaking a throw is just inputting the same command. So, basically there's no reason an expert couldn't break 100% of incoming throws. All the grapplers (grappler? there might only be one) at least have a fairly simple command throw input, and all command throws are untechable, so that part might be okay?

    Sirlin got the basics on life loss... it's basically the same idea from Focus Attacks in SF4. You do a "furious attack", and it's just pressing two buttons together, but you then get "blue health". The blue health regens (way slower than in SF4, I guess?), and if you get hit even once, you lose it all. I guess specific characters can also get blue health from doing certain special attacks, I'm less sure how that all works now.

    The "furious attacks" seem fine to me. One thing to note is that it's not always a dragon punch. On the basic ryu-style character it's literally a dp. But, like, the rushdown girl instead has a counter move that basically causes her to flash kick if the opponent throws out a standing normal or overhead, requires good timing to use it (So, basically meaties will hit her fine, as long as they hit low... and if the opponent is attacking low, she can just do a hop instead of her counter, probably?). One zoning character has this weird super-slow dash attack that tosses the opponent back to the opposite corner if it lands. I don't know how all of them work yet, but they seem to generally serve the same purpose as a dp, but with some differences and weaknesses.

    Yeah, it basically serves that purpose. Link described, with any jab, you can just mash jab, and if you have no meter it does "A > B > C > special > special". And if you have enough meter for a super it does "A > B > C > special > super". As expected the damage is pretty low compared to what people can do manually, but it's enough to keep complete beginners in the game if they can just figure out some defense, and how to hit with a jab. And I guess you gain more meter from doing the non-super auto-combo than from a similar manual combo? So there's apparently reasons for experts to use them in certain situations as well.
  7. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    The game's primary design goal was obviously "make an ArcSys game that's accessible to and appealing to new players" and in that regard I believe they've succeeded? I definitely would have preferred a 5 button game with proximity based grabs but 4 buttons is generally considered optimal for pad and proximity based grabs frustrate new players even if they're technically advantageous (since the game will just option select for you).

    So anyway I LOVE the game but I would have loved it regardless of how good/bad it was so... things I like and things I kinda don't like:

    LIKES:
    • Even if auto-combos are sub-optimal damage wise for most characters, they regenerate extra burst
    • Hold button 1st frame tech and the hit stun indicator
    • Inputs are almost exclusively quarter circle based with the exception of a few charge moves and double/triple tap down
    • Normals feel good
    • Art, characters and basically everything not directly based in mechanics
    DISLIKES:
    • Mashing for All-Out Attacks is stupid even if it's easy
    • Mashing to escape Freeze is stupid even if it's easy
    • That Mini Jumps exist primarily to be an answer to Shock is kinda stupid
    • A+B being the only double button input without an air function is kinda stupid
    • Kinda wish 1-More Cancel and Burst were A+B+C and A+B+D respectively (instead of A+B+C and A+C+D) so that I could just pretend the button I ultimately map A+B to is "Dust"
    • Kinda don't like the way persona break works
    • Kinda don't like Panic both in offensive function and defensive
    • I guess just generally the whole status ailment thing is meh even if the flavor is really cool
    • Failed block indicators should have indicated cross ups
    OTHER THINGS:
    • The primary function of normal throws seems to be countering Evasive Action unless your character has access to Fear
    • Throws at least seem better than Blazblue's
    • Air Turn is weird
    • Negative Penalty should have just inflicted Fear
    • There's a bug that allows Mitsuru to do moves other than Marin Karin
    Lofobal likes this.
  8. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    Is this really true? It seemed like they could be used KOF-style to beat lows in general to me.
    There is at least one character who can do A+B in the air... there may only be one, though.
    I'm curious why? Seemed good to me.
    Are there many ambiguous cross-ups, though? Seems like usually you're doing an air-turn into a dive kick or something where it's super obvious that some giant glowy thing is flying diagonally towards your back.

    Also not convinced about this. Evasive Action has a vulnerable state at the end. No need to throw, if they aren't successfully evading through some attack of yours, you can just hit them anyway.
  9. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    I laughed out loud.

    Does B+D in the air do air DP? Also having talked to some people, they don't agree with you about the mini jumps. They are hops a la KOF.

    edit - My ordered copy has shipped. Hopefully it arrives soon!
    bbobjs likes this.
  10. link6616

    link6616 Well-Known Member

    Hang on Air turn? So is this a manual way to change your direction in the air so when yo air dash over someone you can face the right way?

    That's... interesting... Although it seems like a really awkward solution to a problem that at least in other air dashy fighters doesn't really exist all that much
  11. polarity

    polarity Member

    you have absolutely no fucking clue what you are talking about. what the hell does the motion for the DP have to do with how easy it is to react to meaties with it? do you even understand human reaction times?
  12. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Er, why are you posting here? I thought you were a harassing, thief kind of person. Never even heard an apology.

    As for your question, instead of screaming maybe try to understand what's being said. My point is a system where dragon punch is trivially easy to execute, like if you could do it 100%, but there is a cost such as super meter or life or whatever, then the only possibly outcomes are: a) you choose not to do it (so a meaty won't hit you) or b) you choose to do it (meaty still doesn't hit you). It's one case were some sort of risk of failure, be it from execution error or randomness or anything at all, is kind of good in that helps shift the payoffs for the attacker. I don't now if this game's system has a huge window where you get the reversal 100% of the time that you want, but I was guessing that it's close to that given that there isn't even a motion for the dp, so they are probably trying to make it really really easy and rely on the life cost.
  13. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Then again unlike say SF2 you're not committed to a particular jump arc and meaty attacks that are blocked can generally be converted into nasty block strings with potential for multiple mixups. Also you're generally not committed to particular wakeup timings and can be OTGed until you tech so meaty attacks are generally less of a thing natively anyway.

    EDIT: I suppose it's also important to note that while some are Air Unblockable, not all of them are. So like Yu's is air unblockable but seems prone to failing to auto correct. Mitsuru's isn't Air Unblockable but is almost impossible to wiff with.

    On the otherhand, Mitsuru is generally considered to be the best character and is generally considered to have the best DP (FA) and won SBO so you're probably correct anyway.
    You can use Mini Jumps to dodge lows and I suppose maybe you'd want to since they're faster than normal jump but unlike KoF you can't attack quickly after starting one and there's landing recovery. I think some lows will actually even recover in time to block your potential attack? Anyway it just kinda seems like a rather limited option that they put in because "Oh shit how do we balance a grappler that can prevent you from moving or jumping?"

    Interesting, I assume the character you're talking about is Aigis or Teddie? I'll have to experiment more with that I guess.

    It's similar to why I hate things like Guard Break in Soul Calibur 5. Basically because the gauge only refills once completely broken instead of just slowly regardless of its state, something that should be the "right" choice can actually be the "wrong" choice. There's potential for situations where I'd prefer to have my Persona broken so that I'll be sure it's safe to use at a more clutch moment in the match, especially for characters who aren't particularly dependent on it. Any system that makes me think "should I get hit on purpose" even if the answer is almost always "no" annoys me. I would have definitely preferred if the system were something like "you regenerate all lost cards after not summoning your persona for 10 seconds" instead of "10 seconds after losing your last card you regenerate all lost cards."

    There aren't that many but two things. First it's be nice to know for sure IF I did one. Second if there aren't that many ambiguous highs/lows so if they're going to have indicators for that they might as well for left right. Also the cases I'm mainly thinking of are ones where you Evade through the opponent while your persona does something.

    This is another point where I'm just sort of looking at it from a designers perspective and thinking what do they think throws are supposed to be good for? Do throws beat block? Well yes... but also no since experts really SHOULD be able to tech them on reaction and the designers know that. Do throws beat attacks? Well sometimes but they're probably not a great option, although maybe they lead to better damage and at least they can't be teched if you catch someone out of a move somehow. So what do throws cleanly beat? Evasive Actions.
    Air DP is character dependent. As for the mini-jumps, it's quite possible I'm wrong... I know there's some weird things certain characters can do with them but they seem fairly weak unless you KNOW a sweep is coming or something.
  14. polarity

    polarity Member

    excuse me if you're not claiming you can react to meaties, since you've made this ridiculous claim before i guess i was confused.

    the game has wakeup mixups. there's no throw invincibility on wakeup, so you have to commit to not getting thrown and then you get hit. besides that, getting a ton of frame advantage off a blocked meaty attack is really, really good. i don't know where this idea that meaties being blocked doesn't reward offense enough comes from.

    wanting meaties to be good by virtue of the risk of an opponent messing up their reversal and getting hit strikes me as incredibly sloppy and stupid, especially from a guy who's supposed to be against arbitrary tests of execution in games. it's plenty possible for games to heavily reward wakeup offense without this, as you'd know if you'd bothered to seriously play more than one fighting game made in the past 15 years.
  15. Beikoku Taichou

    Beikoku Taichou Well-Known Member

    ok, so with the air turn...

    Are there still jumping normals that naturally cross up? or do I have to jump, air turn, attack every time I want to cross up?

    If there ARE natural crossups, could I jump, Air Turn, use my crossup normal and still hit someone in the front?
  16. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    polarity: meaties really do have that problem in Sf4. But your super hostile tone for no reason is the more important issue. Please leave the forums if you're going to be like that.
  17. Beikoku Taichou

    Beikoku Taichou Well-Known Member

    in SF4 the best wakeup option is backdash, so now meaties DO exist provided you option select them. So these days, meaties are actually pretty strong! Of course, invincible backdashes and option selects are dumb.

    This thread is about Persona though, not SF4. Can someone who has played it say what their experiences wakeup game was like?
  18. polarity

    polarity Member

    no they really don't because you can't react to any attack you would want to do meaty in the time from their startup to the last active frame. as you would know if you bothered to scientifically test the idea rather than making spurious assumptions, or had bothered to actually play the game for more than 5 minutes (which i can't blame you for not wanting to do, granted).
  19. Arghy

    Arghy Active Member

    This is just kind of funny, because in my experience, you kinda need to put macros on all the extra buttons on the pad when playing a game with lots of two-button inputs like SC5 and VF5. Persona is even worse in this regard, since there's six different button combinations and you can't macro all of those on a regular pad.

    I'm kind of conflicted for the game. On one hand, it looks pretty great. On the other, it doesn't look like there's any way to configure the buttons on a stick so that I'm going to feel comfortable doing everything. Have to wait a month and see, I guess.
  20. link6616

    link6616 Well-Known Member

    Yeah, all the multi button stuff in P4 makes it feel (when reading) really complicated...

    Because what we have AB, CD, BD, AC, ACD, BCD or something right? That's pretty much every combination of buttons next to eachother (as opposed to diagonal) and 2 2 button things, and a single sometimes used shoulder button is fine...

    I mean lets add an E... We could have AB, EA, EB, EC, ED, E+2 for burst... Now that still is a little horrible, but now we have what essentially acts as a shift button, and it's really easy on a pad to press a single shoulder button and a face button.

    And since we have an E button we can remove one of those combinations.

    Although, despite saying all that, I'm sure this is excellent and I look forward to playing Chie and Naoto so much.
  21. tataki

    tataki Well-Known Member

    Sirlin- Try the game.
    It's not really noob friendly (it should really have more buttons) but I think it's not a technical game once you get used to knowing what each button combination does.
    link6616 likes this.
  22. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

    I know two button sweeps is dumb or whatever, but I don't know if I have actually seen people use sweeps in gameplay.

    I could be just crazy though, please say if I am wrong
  23. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    3 frame jump start up and 5 frame unblockable state after that. Good or bad?

    Edit-
    I know I saw sweeps being used(and normal throws) on the stream they had front page for shoryu the other day, but since it's an early US tourney I have no idea how viable all that was.
  24. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

    I think that means that unlike in marvel, jump back and block is not your best defense.

    Also I think 3f jump startup is like, standard for most games, I think most of the guys in sf2 have similar times
  25. link6616

    link6616 Well-Known Member

    I think it'll screw up a lot of new players for a long time, and now you've told me this I'm going to try torture a good friend of mine with this.
  26. tataki

    tataki Well-Known Member

    DPs in P4A:
    1. Can be blocked in the air.
    2. Can be punished for 50% or more because of the fatal counter system. (Which means you have huge punishment combos that can't be landed easily in the neutral game.)
  27. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    Oh, forgot to mention: Right kind of button config 10/10

    Chie, actually.

    I don't know yet. The weird thing about the game is that so far I've found very situations where I want to be at a range where a jump could possibly result in a natural crossup. Usually I'm trying to stay at a distance where jumping forward might allow me to hit at max range from the front with an air normal (this is because standing normal hitboxes are huge on a lot of characters, so this is just the range to stay out of blockstrings), or I can IAD, and this takes me so far over the opponent, that you have to do an air turn into divekick or air fireball or something, because you're way outside range for normals.

    That said, there are some attacks that look like they have crossup potential? Yu has an air special that looks like it's kind of a fake tatsu? Seems like it would have crossup potential. Could be other stuff I'm not seeing.
  28. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    more hostility and wrong things from polarity. I don't know why he is even talking about time to react to meaties. That has nothing to do with what I said at all. I said the closer you get to 100% ability to do reversals, the closer you get to meaties never hitting (only being blocked, or reversaled). There is no reaction time involved in that statement. My original point listed a valid reason the reversal mechanic might be bad, with an open question of how it really is. I still wonder if it's a good mechanic to make reversal super easy and cost life, so it's still an open question. This turned into strange personal attacks about how many games I've played, then more angriness for no reason. Again, I ask you to leave the forums if that's your approach. And I bet I'm not alone there. It's a nice thread besides your posts.

    Eji: pre-jump time is normal. 3f sound like a reasonable setting.
  29. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    I'm talking about the 5 frames of unblockable time after. You have 8 frames at the start of every jump in which you cannot block at all.
  30. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    You can throw on wakeup!!!! This makes me happy, and makes it automatically better than 99% of other 2d fighters, even though throws are probably terrible.

    Honestly, wakeup options seem character-specific, so beyond that I honestly can't say all that much. Word on the street is some of the characters have some pretty devastating, and other characters just want to back and use knockdowns as a reset for zoning. SRK might have better info.
  31. tataki

    tataki Well-Known Member

    They don't seem as slow as in BB. I've seen people get thrown 3 times in a row in matches. I don't think you can really sit on d/b and break on reaction.
    And the generally they don't give combos unless you spend meter.

    It's not just the DP but also her amazing normals, ability to force her way in, ability to keep you out, solid damage, great anti air, marin karin 24/7 etc.
    She's not only solid and versatile but also the easiest to execute which is why she does so well in tournaments.
  32. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Isn't her auto combo the only one that's actually totally worth using and completely optimal?
  33. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    Unlikely? Unless her damage is bad all around... it's not even an especially strong auto-combo.

    Other things I've learned:

    Crossups happen all. the. time. I have no idea what I was smoking before, I've never pressed the air-turn button, and never seen any else do it that I could tell, and they're still a huge part of gameplay.

    Don't confuse the throw and evade commands... I've become very good at landing behind a Yu doing his beam super, and proceeding to charge through him into the super, instead of just kill him.

    Yu's normals are craaaazy good. I'm not sure what Chie is supposed to do about him if he plays a solid poke/punish game. Kanji is generally insane... hitboxes cover half the damn screen and he bounces around anywhere he pleases, another character that I feel pretty disadvantaged against... also what's with his throw super? I swear I hit him with a low kick after the flash, and it just did nothing, and he worked towards me and threw... unfortunately I froze up and didn't keep attacking to see if that would work? Am I supposed to jump out to avoid it? Akihiko apparently never, ever jumps. It's alright because he's scary on the ground. Also he's apparently magically non-existant during his instant kill move... I dragon kicked over one as he did the instant kill, and figured I could just attack his back, and instead I just went through him and killed myself. Seem some very scary Elizabeth players too... she can zone so well, and even once I get in, she has soooo many resets, and they all have good range.

    I switched my control layout to this:
    A B C
    D

    Liking it a lot better than the standard version. Makes A > B > C combos really easy... makes throw really easy (for me, because I'm a VF player), makes furious attack really easy. Evades I need to think about a little harder, but it's okay because they're pretty risky, and even if I successfully evade through someone, I can't hit them because of Chie's T.Rex arms... I mostly don't use them anymore. Should make OMC easy, though I'm not up to learning how to use it much yet. Definitely makes burst easy. Makes AOA easy too, though I always forget it even exists.

    My biggest problem now with Chie is punishing things, as I said above... T.Rex arms. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do if someone whiffs a move and isn't right next to me... I guess sweep? That's kind of a pain because of the command, though, Sirlin got that one right. Rampage loops are super fun, and relatively easy to set up. The cancellable-ness of the auto-combo is awesome. She has a great wall combo that's basically A (jab) > A (add attack) > A (rampage) > A (skull cracker) > wait a split second so you don't get the super cancel > A (jab again) > C > a bunch of other stuff. I'm not too good at the timing yet, but it's especially awesome because people online currently tend to remember to burst just before the super instead of when the combo starts, so it's sort of a secret reset, too. Oh, and skull cracker is a two-hit move that goes high > low, so it will catch people who don't know to switch their block. Makes the entire auto-combo useful as a block string, although good players will block it anyway... and better players will realize the Rampage isn't safe on block, and just counter-hit you, so watch out for that.

    *EDIT*: Took a shower after posting this, and as they say about all good thinking... Obviously she's supposed to punish stuff with Black Hole. It's got the speed, it's got the range, and it's her fatal counter move, which should have been a pretty big hint. Guess I need to go figure out how to followup a wall bounce now;;

    This game is super fun, and will be so much better if they fix the stupid XBL speed bug. The slow fights are frustrating, but are at least still kind of fun, and serve as a learning experience since basically every move is hugely telegraphed and people aren't going to miss punishes. However, I've also run into the occasional super-fast fight... these are frustrating and awful because it seems to just be "whoever has the biggest hitboxs spams moves and wins" (hint: Chie doesn't have the biggest hitboxes;; )

    Oh, and the absolute most awesome loss I've managed so far... used Chie's counter attack to counter a meteor super from another Chie player. The flash-kick follow-up is apparently un-interruptable, but you take damage as normal if you get hit during it. So I proceeded to forcibly launch myself through all the remaining meteors, which are so spread out that they don't normally all hit you even if you don't block the move. Took soooooo much damage;;
    link6616 likes this.
  34. tataki

    tataki Well-Known Member

    Many characters have reasons to use the auto combos, or at least a part of it, inside their regular combos because of the meter bonuses.

    A C
    D
    for a burst... lol
    Just play with the default layout instead of letting day 1 impressions dictate everything.
    By day 3 you'll get used to the original layout if you don't puss out.
  35. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    Screw that, my hand is not shaped like a diamond. I'm going to dedicate a single finger per button, which necessitates the L layout. The question was always just where to put things (I initially wanted to leave B in the default position), not whether or not I'd switch.

    Anyway, the point was to make Burst the hardest thing so I don't hit by accident... and honestly, despite that, I do still hit it by accident all the time (VF players will understand why). But, more importantly the "hardest thing" in that layout is ridiculously much easier than doing anything in the default layout, which is why I say it's easy... it is compared to the stupid default command.
  36. tataki

    tataki Well-Known Member

    You are insane but ok.
  37. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    The break window is as huge as BB or Tekken (12-14 frames), you really SHOULD be reacting to them everytime. Obviously should doesn't translate to always will (I know I don't) but... anyway the only thing making them not as bad as BB is that you can't break them while Feared.
    I've seen her hit boxes, believe me I know why she's amazing. The fact that basically all her moves have feints or the ability to have feint like attributes is just icing on the cake.
    This is NOT true. Most can but some can't.
    That's not an Air A+B that's just Air B
    There are definitely moves that can cross up naturally but I don't know if there's anything that can do what you're talking about. Like my understanding of the way hitboxes work in this game is that your character has a center and when you're Airborne your center moves in a trajectory in accordance with whatever action put you there. When you do a normal your hit/hurt boxes simply extend from your center but don't actually alter it's position and when you do an Air Turn it simply rotates your hit/hurt boxes about your center. Your opponent must always hold away from your center to block. That said, some air normals will alter your trajectory on block/hit and most air specials will also alter your trajectory.

    I'm thinking you could maybe do something similar to what your asking with Teddie's Air B. It can hit on either side, turned or not and when it does you'll bounce backward from your character's perspective at 45ish degrees unless you immediately cancel it with another normal. I imagine this could be used to set up some tricky shit in combination with his items but nothing quite like what I think you want.

    I also don't know if there's the potential for SF4 style "unblockable" cross-ups simply because I don't really even know why those work... but I'm assuming they don't exist or they're completely impractical.
    Right, like I said I'd definitely prefer 5 buttons but 4 leaves you with a bit more freedom. Like on a standard playstation controller S+X or T+O are rather easy to hit so you probably don't need a macro; however S+T or X+O is more annoying to hit so you'd probably want a macro. For S+T+X and S+T+O you'll basically need a macro if you expect to make reasonable use of those functions but you can easily just macro something to [S+T] and just do [S+T]+X and [S+T]+O. Ultimately I'd probably set it up like this:

    S=A
    X=B
    T=C
    O=D
    R1=[A+B] because it's effectively dust
    L1=[A+C] because it's a special movement button and it makes sense to have it operated by the movement hand
    R2=[C+D] because I'd prefer my EX stuff on the same side
    L2=[B+D] because whatever it's reversal

    ...but you COULD use an alternative setup.

    Anyway I don't even know why I'm going into detail here, obviously the fewer buttons you're required to map the more buttons you have open for macros and thus the more options you'll have for adjusting your layout. I mean just compare this to a 6 button layout like SF4:
    L|M|H
    S|F|R
    but then the following 6 combinations are different functions:
    L+S|M+F|L+M|S+F|L+M+H|S+F+R
    and you still have these 3 functions although they're generally not needed:
    M+H|F+R|H+R
    The way it'd actually work is converting this:

    AB= Dust/EX Specials
    CD= Throw/EX P.Specials
    AC= Special Movement
    BD= Reversal
    ABC= Cancel
    ACD= Burst

    To this:

    E= Dust
    AB= EX Specials
    CD= Throw/EX P.Specials
    AE= Special Movement
    BE= Reversal
    CE= Cancel
    DE= Burst

    Or alternatively AD/BC could be used to fill either the EX functions or Throw function.
  38. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    Shit, you're right. I was confusing the fact that A+B notation wise is AOA, but A+B xbox controller wise is FA.

    Also, I think what BT was asking about with air-turn can happen? I'm specifically thinking of how Yosuke can do moonsault to cross up or do air-dash > turn > moonsault, which is basically just hitting you from the front, except he added a feint to look like he switched sides. I'm less certain how you'd do it with normal attacks... and it would certainly require some really specific positioning, but it should be possible.

    Maybe with jump C attacks? Which would kind of only be good in a situation like that anyway, since if you jump in normally with one of those you'll usually just die to a 2B.
  39. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Oh hey helpful tip for people trying to figure out how to set their Marcos.

    If you set a button to A+B+C (Roman Cancel) it'll function as A+C (Evasive Action/Hop/Air Turn) unless you're in a recovery state where you couldn't Evade, Hop or Turn anyway.
    specs likes this.
  40. specs

    specs Well-Known Member

    Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.
  41. tataki

    tataki Well-Known Member

    But it's never just about the break window. Big moves in Tekken are about 15 frames but you can't really react to a 15 frame move. BB throws also have about 7 frame startup, THEN the break window. Which makes it overall above 20- Something you can react to. Throws in Tekken have about 15 frame startup as well, before the tech window kicks in.
  42. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    There is a very dubious statement. I will admit any faster than 15 frames, and reacting is probably impossible. But I think skilled players, especially with enough game knowledge to be specifically watching for a thing off a solid prediction, have been shown to have no real problem with consistent 15f reaction times.
  43. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Agree that you can't really react to a 15f move. You can react to tells before the move and use the 15f for the reaction, though. That is how I react to ST Ryu's overhead, for example.

    This game is fun so far. The only issue I've had so far is that I find myself wanting the controls to be like
    A B
    C D
    It makes more sense to me that rows get stronger from left to right and that each row is a different "kind" of move. I think that might make the multibutton inputs a little weird, though. I'll give it a couple days before I change anything around. ;shrug:
    Scarbo likes this.
  44. Arghy

    Arghy Active Member

    For those grappling with the controls, keep in mind that there's a button priority thing under all that.
    Lofobal likes this.
  45. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

  46. specs

    specs Well-Known Member

    Bought this on PS3. My arcade stick is 360 only, so I'm using Dual Shock 2 with an X-Arcade adapter (a decent adapter actually). Happ/iL sticks with American layouts aren't cheap. :(

    Not sure why I arbitrarily typed that up. LOVE ME.
    link6616 and bbobjs like this.
  47. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    First tourney done... Two and out warriors unite!

    I'm actually thinking of dropping Chie now... she's the type of character I love in every game, but she's so all or nothing. As predicted earlier, I get in on people fine, but then I either completely fail to hit them, or drop my combo halfway through. I think I learned I jump way too much, and I need a much more patient ground game where I bait something out and evasive action through it? I don't know how to make that work, though.

    Lost to a Yu player who was basically willing to fireball me all day if I stood back, and 2B me if I jumped in... I was too scared of his slide kick to try to walk in, but maybe stay on the ground and be prepared to block and punish is the only way. I'm not sure what answer Chie has to his 2B if I do jump.

    Then lost to a solid Naoto who knew how to do a setup such that if I air-dashed over his head I'd hit a red trap, and if I landed in front of him, I'd hit a green trap. And you can't really use ground evades to get on him because of the way his shots work. This one might just be a tough matchup?

    I'm gonna play around with Yukiko and S.Labrys see if those work better. Kanji, Aigis, and Teddie are on my radar too.
  48. tataki

    tataki Well-Known Member

    Chie's combos are kinda hard... You shouldn't go for Japanese B&Bs when you just start the game as dropping combos is a huge price to pay. Skip the hard part, do 1000 damage less and focus on getting better at the game. Then later maybe upgrade to the harder shit.

    I finally got the online to work with almost no problems. Arcsys netcode is very nice.
  49. link6616

    link6616 Well-Known Member

    How are you guys feeling about the awakening mechanic (where at 20% health you gain 50 SP and a new max of 150)

    At least if I'm recalling it correctly
  50. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    Joke post? Her dragon kick does damn near 3k by itself. And her auto-combo is pretty much optimal from mid-screen with under 50 sp. I don't know how to do a less than 1k damage combo with her unless you're just forgetting to throw out rampage on a ground hit. Dropping combos is kind of not that big a deal anyway since you're gonna get hit with a burst once you get in, so it's way more important to learn some good oki in-between shorter combos.

    I wasn't having any trouble with combos, I was having trouble starting them. I ended up deciding I was too stubborn to quit, and have gotten better since my last post. Her D attacks are amazing, especially in the air, and I wasn't really using them at all. And her 5C punishes all sorts of stuff. Sweep into 5DD is pretty important, too, and sweeping in general is important for mixups, since people want to block high until skull cracker. If they know to block low, though, it's almost more important to learn to cancel block strings into A+B... great if they're grounded, I haven't figured out how to followup the weird mini-launch if you hit them in the air. I also didn't know about dash cancelling, which is pretty important for applying any pressure, but I'm still not very good with it.

    A bit more complicated, it actually kicks in at 30-35% (it looks like 20% on the bar, but there's a magic pixel effect), plus you get a defense bonus, so it effectively counts as even more hp than that. There's also an extra super you can only do while Awakened, and a few other weird effects.

    I honestly really like it. Not too much else to say... it's not exactly a huge departure from the ultra bar in SF4, works as an effective comeback mechanic. But it's way more elegant since there's not some extra bar on-screen, and a whole set of extra rules for filling that bar. And the awakened supers are generally more utility-oriented and designed to be used multiple times in a match if possible. Combine that with the Burst and Instant Kills attacks, and it's not like there's a lack of comeback options anyway. Can be countered by just comboing someone to death from the 30% hp point so it never activates, but on the flip-side, activating it guarantees at least one super, since it's possible to get poked down to 30% without hitting 50sp.

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