Polarity Hunt 2

Discussion in 'Forum Games' started by curiousCat, Oct 16, 2011.

  1. curiousCat

    curiousCat Member

    Day 2 Start: http://forums.sirlin.net/showthread.php?t=5803&page=40
    Day 3 Start: http://forums.sirlin.net/showthread.php?p=165023#post165023

    PolarityHunt is the summation of years of experience in mafia-type games. In this I offer my viewpoint on many common problems that plague most setups.

    16 players total: 11 town roles and 5 witch roles.

    Game flow:
    The game begins on day 1 and alternates between day and night. Lynching and nominating a nightguard take place during the day.
    Lynching takes place when a majority is reached, followed by night.

    Neither role, polarity, nor alignment will be revealed upon death.

    Night action precedence:
    1. Lodestone's polarity change
    2. Magneto's polarity inversion
    3. Check results
    4. Loose Cannon kill
    5. Coven kill
    6. Iron Golem polarity shift (when applicable)
    7. Demon's results
    8. Revival
    9. Seamstress target
    10. Old Geezer on death ability

    Game Mechanics:
    Voting: Lynch votes occur with a majority; deadline votes are allowed.
    Night guard is elected with a plurality vote. Revivals also are plurality.

    Witches win nightguard/revival in the event of a tie with one other person; any other case is determined randomly. If there are 3 or more people tied for nightguard, then no nightguard is elected that cycle.

    Polarity: Every role has an assigned polarity (positive, neutral, negative). All witches have a neutral polarity. Witches have two types of kills: positive kill and negative kill. In order for a kill to succeed, the witches must match the proper polarity kill with the kill target (e.g. A positive kill on Magneto would fail). If there is a mismatch, the kill fails and no announcement is made (neither to the targeted player nor publicly). Either kill type will work on a neutral polarity.
    Roles that use abilities that target other players "visit" that player when they perform their action (this applies to Lodestone, only).

    Night Patrol: Every day, the town must choose someone (by plurality vote) to stand guard at night. The chosen player will learn who the witches targeted (and with what type of kill) as well as a transcript of everything said in witchchat during the past day/night. NO NIGHT ACTIONS WILL AFFECT THIS PLAYER.
    However, after being made nightguard, you cannot be elected nightguard for two days after your election.

    Witches: At the beginning of the game, witches will be sent a list of all other witches (excluding the Loose Cannon). They must use assigned names when speaking in witch chat. Witches may speak in their group QT at any time.
    Roles and pseudonyms are known to witches, nothing else (not even their names!).
    The LC knows who the witches are and nothing else.

    Revival: If you die, don't despair! You aren't out of the game, yet. Once you die, your soul goes to the Mystical Burial Grounds, where you chat with all the dead players. Once every two nights, the dead players MUST choose someone to return to the world of the living. Beware, though! Dead witches can possess one player of their choice at the beginning of revival nights. If that player is selected to be revived, the witch gets revived along with him!

    All players retain use of their respective night actions when they die. The two exceptions are below:
    +/-: Plus and Minus lose the synergy benefit when visiting opposite polarities when dead.
    Seamstress: Seamstress no longer sews targets to herself; instead, she chooses a living witch to sew a person to.

    In the case of two witches possessing the same target, only the first witch (chronological order) will be revived.
    Base polarity does not change upon death/revival (i.e. Magneto cannot permanently alter a person's polarity if he visits them on the night of their death).

    A witch loses the ability to possess once they successfully steal a revive.

    Definition of "participate:" the channeler and zombie will both receive pseudonyms with which to post in deadchat with as well the ability to cast a revival vote. They retain said pseudonyms upon their death and may post and vote under either name. THEY ESSENTIALLY GAIN AN EXTRA VOTE UPON THEIR DEATH. If the channeler is banished, he loses use of both his normal name AND pseudonym.

    Banishing: On the beginning of revival nights, a dead witch may either attempt to banish any dead person by naming their role or possess another player. Should they be successful, the banishment will be announced in the burial ground chat and the banished player is essentially removed from the game. THE PLAYER'S ROLE IS NOT REVEALED UPON A SUCCESSFUL BANISHMENT. The banished player may still observe dead chat, but they may not speak nor be revived. If a banish fails, the attempt will be revealed (e.g. "There was an attempt to banish <playerx> as Iron Golem!"). Witches may fake such an attempt on themselves (or actually do so, though this is questionable play).
    Witches must have their action ready before the end of the day for it to count.

    Witches must have their banish/possess action in BEFORE the revival night begins or else it will not be counted.

    The Loose Cannon can banish AND possess on revival nights.

    Odd tidbits: Romeo and Juliet do not have day chat.
    New role:
    Capacitor (NEUTRAL): On revival nights it may sacrifice itself to revive another player.
    Its death is indistinguishable from a night kill.
    It may use this ability when dead on a revival night.
    If it is in the graveyard when it uses this ability, it gets banished from the game.
    If he targets a banished person while alive, he is informed that his target was not valid and no one is revived (and he doesn't die).

    Grandpa + Grandma become Old Geezer (POSITIVE) which shifts a vote from one person to another (cannot target self) upon death. Both players are notified of the loss/gain.
    Channeler is now NEGATIVE.

    Seamstress functions in the same way, except the person dies with the nightkills the morning after her lynch.
    The night after her revival, only the lynch protection function of her ability works.
    The person sewn will not die on the day she is revived.

    Lodestone gains a night visit which acts as a nexus (all actions on the player he targets affect him instead).
    Demon ALWAYS receives info.
    Additionally, Demon gains a oneshot ability. Once per game he can submit false reports for any (or all) of the four investigative roles (Compass Bearer, Scientist, +, -)

    Role List:
    Old cards:

    Old cards:

    Player list
    1. Archon Shiva
    2. beruru
    3. Prime Intellect
    4. Ehrgeix
    5. RoieTRS Souless-Solace
    6. fivexthethird
    7. Kai-
    8. bbobjs
    9. Arkaal
    10. A Killer Cuppa Tea
    11. Geneti Marabu
    12. Deceptive
    13. aerinon
    14. Ixtaccihuatl
    15. Mirdini
    16. AlexSierra

    1. Marabu

    Feel free to ask about anything and suggest anything.

    This will be the thread for the second game.
  2. curiousCat

    curiousCat Member

    DAY 1 IS GO!

    Live list
    1. Archon Shiva
    2. beruru
    3. Prime Intellect
    4. Ehrgeix
    5. RoieTRS
    6. fivexthethird
    7. Kai-
    8. bbobjs
    9. Arkaal
    10. A Killer Cuppa Tea
    11. Geneti
    12. Deceptive
    13. aerinon
    14. Ixtaccihuatl
    15. Mirdini
    16. AlexSierra

    Deadline is tentatively set for Saturday, October 22nd at 11:59:59 PM EST
  3. beruru

    beruru Well-Known Member

    vote primeintellect
  4. Geneti

    Geneti New Member

    "PolarityHunt is the summation of years of experience in mafia-type games. In this I offer my viewpoint on many common problems that plague most setups."


    Oh, and vote: fivex pre-emptively for lurking
  5. Deceptive

    Deceptive Well-Known Member

    lynce mrdini
  6. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    Okay so let's get this thing started! (more later)

    Arkaal: With no acolyte and the lovers gambit having been discussed at length last game, is there any new element which would make one player a better choice than another for NG?

    bbobjs: What's the best thing that Polarity 1.0 brought to witchhunt?

    beruru: What's the biggest (effect-wise) change of 2.0?

    Aerinon: What was your biggest mistake last game? (he was Lodestone)

    Mirdini: How Do you think town will fare without your perfect storm to help us? (he hit neutrals like clockwork as CB)

    Ehrgeix: Ask me something about last game.

    Prime Intellect: So, are those awards ready anytime soon?

    AlexSierra: Will you join me in nick naming the coven "homies" in this game?
  7. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Resurrection, makes killing "strong" players early less optimal.
  8. KaiDASH

    KaiDASH Well-Known Member

    Hi all, just checking in to say I'm around and stuffs.
  9. Ehrgeix

    Ehrgeix Well-Known Member

    Just realized game had started! (thanks CC - running it is really very much appreciated, though I realize you are busy)

    bbobjs: I feel like we should further develop our special relationship (unless you are a witch). Can you come up with any particular hypothetical plays you think are definitely +ev for town?

    AS: I wanted to ask:

    In loverchat you seemed quite convinced I was a witch, and then there was a pause, and then you had accepted I was innocent. When did you start to think I might be innocent and when did you finally accept it? How much of the suspicion was faked?

    This was basically for my personal curiousity, though, and I'm not sure how much it benefits you/town (if you are town) to remain somewhat inscrutable. Feel free to answer bits only. Alternatively: what did you think of beruru's play last game?

    Ixta: I recruited you for this game but I do not know much about your previous WH experience other than that you have played a few e-games. What do you think innocents should seek to do in this game and why?

    Arkaal & Geneti: Are you a witch?
  10. Ehrgeix

    Ehrgeix Well-Known Member

    ebwop: I forgot Prime was actually playing in this game. Prime: what do you think the optimal use of capacitor is?
  11. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    I had no idea - my scumdar is legendary in its ineffectiveness. I ran with Sotek's scum tells on you so he'd be presented with a devil's advocate view. Ithaldir was ridiculously useful even if he was a witch, so I wasn't about to kill him. I was seriously scared of you having sewn Arkaal, but that's not the same as believing this was the case.

    I was never convinced you were scum, and I wasn't convinced you were innocent until the lynch.

    I'm good at collecting evidence, not at interpreting it!
  12. Prime Intellect

    Prime Intellect Well-Known Member

    Capacitor needs to SERIOUSLY consider never even using its ability, even if it's drawing a lot of pressure and even a potential lynch.
    A capacitor witch revival would be game-endingly bad, needless to say.

    Also, consider this: capacitor activates, witches fail both their kills.
    Whoops, 2 revived, 1 dead. I wonder what happened there [/sarcasm]

    More thoughts later when I'm not on my phone.

    (Thanks a ton, cat! This is already really fun.)
  13. Ehrgeix

    Ehrgeix Well-Known Member

    Does anyone disagree with prime's capacitor assessment?
  14. Arkaal

    Arkaal Member

    Capacitor as NG is okay. More info isn't bad for him, and if gets attention and a NK or lynch because of it, then whatever, who cares. Geezer being NG is good, for much the same reasons (and because it's both grandma/grandpa in one, it's even more important that they get info before they die).

    New RomJu is meh. They're a little weaker about it, but whatever.

    I feel like letting a non-cannon witch get NG is worse, especially if they get selected before day ends. Any NG cantidate should obviously undergo heavy scrutiny. That said, I'll throw my hat into the ring, with an Elect Arkaal for Nightguard vote, even though I know nobody trusts me.

    I will not claim a role to get NG, though.
  15. Arkaal

    Arkaal Member

    I totally agree with it. Capacitor is super-risky.
  16. Arkaal

    Arkaal Member

    Apparently this game is broken, and assigned me a non-witch role. I've already submitted a bug report to the moderator, so hopefully it'll be fixed in the next version.
  17. Prime Intellect

    Prime Intellect Well-Known Member


    Also, I forgot about the NG business (go figure?)
    Elect: Prime Intellect

    Also, this is probably the only ruleset ever where I will ask you guys whether or not we should NL today.

    Pros: Pretty much guaranteed town revival n2 (barring a LC death in which it's pro-town anyways because no LC kill n2)

    Cons: Not as much info. We could counteract this by tossing only deadline votes around and then switching to NL right before deadline so that we still get a sense of voting patterns.

    Either way, we still get NG voting stuff.
  18. Geneti

    Geneti New Member

    "Geneti: Are you a witch?"

    Sadly, no, I'm not.

    I wanted to be Seamstress; Prime seemed to have fallen in love with the role when he first started the huge tweaks to Tallybot, and I wanted to know why.

    Have to agree with Prime; Capacitor has a huge potential to screw us over by a bad use of his power.
  19. beruru

    beruru Well-Known Member

    Witches don't know each other's usernames in witchchat.
    Accidental bussing! Accidental murdering!
    of course this means that it is extra important to never make a witch nightguard because then they can reveal themselves to each other.
  20. Geneti

    Geneti New Member

    "Witches don't know each other's usernames in witchchat."

    Wait what?

    I thought they didn't know roles.
  21. beruru

    beruru Well-Known Member

    > Roles and pseudonyms are known to witches, nothing else (not even their names!).

    it's the LC who doesn't know roles.
  22. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    Voting patterns, in a setting where homies don't know each other, but do know the lynch isn't going through? Really?
  23. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    If you trust me, then electing me is +EV town, otherwise nothing has really changed since last game. Claiming is still terrible and it's only maybe slightly better for witches to become NGs. The only problem with electing me NG is I'm not a role that gets any special advantage from it but I'm also not a role that's terrible for it... it's up to you guys to figure out if it's worth it.
  24. KaiDASH

    KaiDASH Well-Known Member

    homies, lol.

    Anyway, I agree that doing a no lynch with pretend deadline votes seems odd, especially since witches don't even know each other at this point.

    Not really sure who should get nightguard atm, since a witch getting it on n1 would be a disaster so we need to be careful.
  25. Prime Intellect

    Prime Intellect Well-Known Member

    Oh derp.
    Forget the voting pattern part of that.
    Basically what I meant is that even if we do NL, we don't have to just twiddle our thumbs and start doing stuff tomorrow.
    We can still get stuff done today no matter what.
  26. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Hm... I want to be very careful with this statement as I'm absolutely sure it'll be misconstrued later but I honestly don't believe a witch being elected D1 is THAT bad. Don't misunderstand, it is BAD, but I don't think it's game ending or even as bad as a D1 Compass lynch.
  27. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Actually correction, lynching Compass D1 doesn't even matter that much anymore, change all instances of "Compass" in the previous post to whatever you believe is the most important role to keep alive pre-info leaks.
  28. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    bbobjs: Do explain. Homie NG means all witches exchange names as soon as night falls, and we lose any sort of interesting night chat for the rest of the game (much like last time). Day chat remains, but we'll need serious pressure to force them to use it.

    Arkaal, Prime: Care to give us a line from the campaign book? What would we be voting for exactly?

    Actually, I have a proposal. Anyone running for NG should run a lynch campaign on somebody at he same time. That should get the game started.
  29. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    Also, in your QTs, could you all try to post "Day 2" and so on at the beginning of each phase. It makes later reading much more enjoyable. I'm going to experiment with updates of what's happened in game (who died, etc.) as well, to make it easier to follow.
  30. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    There's nothing to explain really, I just don't think "N1 Homie NG" is an auto win for witches. Maybe it's because I have no experience playing Prime Hunt under the effects of a Witch NG but I don't think Town is completely boned if we slip and allow it... that is to say I don't think we need to construct a fool proof NG play, we can afford the gamble. I don't really want to further discuss the dynamics of a Witch NG for obvious (?) reasons but I think as long as we all keep an eye out for strange things the prospect shouldn't be too devastating.

    The general theme of this post is I'd rather have an N1 Witch NG than early game info leaks or a bad lynch.
  31. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Oh BtW, I think today is the worst day to no lynch, and I'd really like to get some trains going but it's hard when almost half the players haven't posted yet. Considering the game only started like a like a day and a half ago, I'm willing to overlook the lumps for now but it REALLY does slow things down and cause mistakes when people don't talk.
  32. aerinon

    aerinon Well-Known Member

    Wheeee! Question times already!

    Dang it. And I totally get a -EV question. I would love to expound on my many mistakes and the correct way to play witch, but it falls under the category of advising witches. So, all I'll say is that succeeding at nightkills is probably better for witches than anything else, which I did extremely poorly at. Because town never claimed. And when info roles did, they elected that person as NG to get extra info. Thus, as town, we don't claim. Ever.

    Umm, last time the night chats got boring because the witches couldn't get a NG election (or a critical kill) for the life of them. Or they were all dead but me. So my theory is that night chat will deteriorate no matter what we do. Which is a good thing. I think LC NG is a lot more devastating than coven NG. I also agree with many of bbobjs' points in his post regarding this, I rather be more cautious about early game info leaks that give witches direction than screwing up the NG election. Mislynches are also bad, but I always think revivals make up for those nicely.

    On the subject of no lynch... how does that affect revival night? Seems like it's okay, one of the night 1 kills is likely to get revived. Since only loose cannon knows who the witches are I'm not too concerned about losing that voting information. Still, I'd like to keep the option open of lynching someone that seems scummy if we want to. I certainly don't want to decide on a no lynch right now. Preview edit: yeah, bbobjs has a good point. Lets get some people talking.

    Lynch: Fivex. No talking is anti-town and you are famous for it. Start talking.
  33. curiousCat

    curiousCat Member

    I made a derp and forgot to give witches their chat so I just did. Oops.
  34. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    At least that's consistent with bbobjs.

    I want something solid on NG. Foolproof would be too much to hope for, but I believe securing the NG is by far the best tool town has in this setup. Witches want to trade names so they can coordinate, and so long as we control the NG, we can watch for this.

    Let's get the planning types together and try to figure something.
  35. aerinon

    aerinon Well-Known Member

    Checking plans won't work in this game, because any info related plan we make publicly the freaking Demon will screw with it. So, info roles, do your thing! (Which means, whatever you feel like doing.) I mean, how else can you secure NG? Lover claim? -EV for sure. Heck, any claim I'd toss out the window. Anything that guarantees us a clean nightguard? I certainly don't see it. Just gotta scumhunt I guess. Or townhunt if you are looking for NG. I like bbobjs' play a lot already. Archon Shiva seems like himself, too. Which is good. I've never seen his witch play though. Is there a game somewhere that you were a witch, Archon Shiva?

    Elect: bbobjs

    Letsee, people who haven't checked in yet for future reference: Roie, Fivex, Tea, Ixtac, Mirdini, and Alex. Sheesh, more than a third.
  36. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    I don't think we can get anything solid without spilling more than it's worth, ultimately our choice for N1 NG is going to be based on trust I think. Currently no one has info (probably even witches since CC apparently just gave them a QT), Lovers can't talk yet and the only other solid thing I can think of would be a claim, which has a multitude of ways to backfire.

    I'm not sure how ties work this time but I assume it's the same as last time and would guarantee the election of a witch or rather prioritize their election over town? Uh... I guess mod, how are Night Patrol election ties resolved?
  37. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    Nope, always town. Alex finally bailed on me last game, though.

    Oh, and Prime, why would you even consider going no lynch this early, much less suggest it? (lynch)

    Here's another Aerinon quote for you:
    Elect: bbobjs
  38. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    I want to say something about this but Garcia rule and want to avoid stepping on toes and such.
  39. aerinon

    aerinon Well-Known Member

    I'd guess that NG election ties work the same. The tiebreak only happens if two people are tied for NG and then either the witch gets it or random.org decides who gets it. Using Bayes' theorem and assuming we tie the vote on two "randomly" selected people. (Which isn't completely random since LC knows who witches are, right?) We get the following information:

    P(Scum|WinningTheTiebreaker) = P(WinningTheTiebreaker|Scum)*P(Scum)/P(WinningTheTiebreaker)


    Thus P(Scum|WinningTheTiebreaker)=5/8

    Thus someone who wins the tiebreaker has a 5/8 chance of being a witch. Which is twice as likely as sleb. So you can use that to laser focus D2 scumhunting, which isn't bad. TBH, if we were to use this method, I'd leaning on using people we have a hard time getting info out of anyway. But that just encourage witches to lurk, I guess.
  40. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Wait, what? Why would we narrow it down to two people? If we're going to do something that increases the chances of electing scum, then it's only worthwhile if it increases the chance to 100%.
  41. aerinon

    aerinon Well-Known Member

    I missed that bit, sorry. Prime stated in the last game he'd only consider it a tie if it was down to two people to get past the whole everyone votes for themselves and then a witch is revealed at 100%. A tie between three or more resulted in no NG. I was just evaluating the worth of going through with it anyway with that restriction. So, you can force some info but it's not guaranteed to net us a witch.

    The only other possibly pro-town move I've thought of is +/- claiming and protecting each other ad nasuem which forces the witches to counterclaim early or burn the seamstress later to break through. Downsides: two claims and banishments for witches to figure things out. Also loss of +/- info for the rest of the game. A lot of people think that it's bad idea from the last postgame but forcing witches to gambit somehow is interesting. Seamstress seems weaker in this game though, so I'm not so sure anymore that it is a good trade. So, I don't consider this a valid course of action right now.
  42. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Do you remember what happened if there was more than a 2 way tie? I don't recall what the ruling was.

    As for the +/- strat, there's allot that can go wrong with it... uh, should I go into it, or would you like to leave the option open for now?
  43. aerinon

    aerinon Well-Known Member

    No NG for any tie invovling 3+ people.

    I highly doubt there'll be much support for the +/- plan from either town or witches. I think it may be -EV enough for both sides to dislike it. So sure, rip into it.
  44. Prime Intellect

    Prime Intellect Well-Known Member

    More than a 2-way tie = no NG.
    Anyways, Archon, in response to your "give me something to make me elect you"

    You'd be electing a townie.


    Yeah, I really won't even think about saying much more than that this early in.
    As for the no-lynch suggestion, I remember thinking about it long before the game even started and when the game did start, I forgot why I thought it was a good idea, but I still thought it was a good idea, so I suggested it anyways.

    As for the witches not knowing each other, remember that they have daychat now.

    Lynch train as part of my election, eh?
    Vote: beruru
    She laid down an instant vote on me (a little TOO easy for her to do, knowing her play fairly well) then followed that up with a few posts on stating the rules. Thus far, I'd rank her BARELY above lurkers in terms of who I want to lynch, because stating the rules and saying nothing else reads like scum wanting to pad its post count and seem pro-town.
  45. Prime Intellect

    Prime Intellect Well-Known Member

    As for the +/- strategy, who says both would have to claim?
    One could claim, be protected by the other, and proceed to check everyone all game.
    Witches would have to possibly waste a kill just to check if - was still alive (though that may be potentially useful info for them, damn)
  46. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Actually, I kind of like that plan, it avoids allot of the issues having both claim would cause... I don't think we should settle on it yet and I definitely don't want anyone claiming yet, but I think it could work.
  47. aerinon

    aerinon Well-Known Member

    Oooh. Even better. How about one of them claims, but doesn't say which of +/- they are? That way, witches know he is one of +/- but not which one. Now, they won't even know if the other is alive or not if their kill fails. That sounds much better. Doesn't hurt witches as bad, but it is a lot safer.
  48. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    Well, I guess the campaign is having some success: my vote is definitely staying on you!

    "Night Actions" for Lodestone includes drawing any NK, right?

    Arkaal: Please rip into "unspecified claimed +/- getting protected by the other" plan.

    Everyone: Ask a question to one of the NG candidates.
  49. Geneti

    Geneti New Member

    Prime: out of the other NG candidates, who would you be okay with, and why?
  50. KaiDASH

    KaiDASH Well-Known Member

    bbobjs: How much of an improvement is the current +/- proposal over aerinon's original version? Would you be happy giving NG to one of them currently?

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