Puzzle Strike 3.5 plans

Discussion in 'Puzzle-Strike: Bag of Chips' started by Sirlin, Jan 9, 2010.

  1. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Rufus, that seems false. If your hand is full of Mash Together, you can't crash. You also rarely get to play two Mash Togethers in a turn.
  2. Fry

    Fry Well-Known Member

    The units are "number of gems I will lose and opponent will gain at some point". Crash is 1 because when you play it, you lose a gem and opponent gains a gem. Combine is 1 because at some point you will crash, and the combine increased the gem exchange by 1 for each player. Mash Together is basically two Combines, hence its value of 2. If your play for the turn is combine-combine-crash, you are +3 on your opponent. If the point differential increases to a certain value X, the game will end (because someone is flooded with gems).

    The two sentences "If your hand is full of Mash Together, you can't crash. You also rarely get to play two Mash Togethers in a turn." are both obvious and fairly irrelevant to the point being made. Combo Time has a negative value (you are building your own pile!) but that doesn't mean it's bad.
  3. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Was responding to Rufus's theory that Rook with two mash togethers would beat MechaDegrey. He's since edited his post.
  4. Fry

    Fry Well-Known Member

    That is why Quoting For Truth is a good idea. :)
  5. Rufus

    Rufus Member

    Yeah, I was overcounting Rock Wall somewhat.

    Rook starts with:
    Rock Wall
    Crash
    Strength of Earth
    3.5/10 chips

    With 2x Mash Together he's got 7.5/12 chips which is about .625 purple per chip.

    That's a little higher than MDG's .6 purple per chip, but there's a significant chance of double-drawing the mash-togethers which will prevent him from using both in a pass - the odds of getting both in a hand are 120/792 which works out to a loss of about .3 purples per cycle - and makes MDG and 2Mash Rook just about equal in terms of purple density.

    2x Mash Together 1x Combine should be enough to put Rook over the top.

    I haven't tested this to see whether Rook consistently has enough material to mash together, and it's assuming that countercrashes are at face value, wich I'm not entirely sure about.
  6. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    19:16:38 ChadMiller: so, I'm reading rufus' post about purples. I find it telling that mixmaster doesn't even get mentioned
    19:16:58 ChadMiller: also the more I think about it the more I think combine's purple arrow is the worst part about monopurple
    19:17:11 icewolf34: yah, makes you like purples even more
    19:17:26 icewolf34: even if you want to do something non-boring, like
    19:17:30 SmartChump: I think maybe I should switch over to flash duel or something
    19:17:38 icewolf34: you are losing the chance to do 2x actions
    19:18:04 ChadMiller: I wonder if combine should be black arrow instead
    19:18:50 FAILGAMECENTRAL: maybe a brown arrow!
    19:18:51 icewolf34: seems like that makes it a ridiculously good chip though
    19:18:54 ChadMiller: seems counterintutive to nerf purple by buffing a purple card though
    19:19:02 Rufus: As in the purple arrow is the part that makes it extra potent?
    19:19:11 icewolf34: i mean then you ALWAYS want a combine in hand
    19:19:13 ChadMiller: rufus, as in, the purple arrow is why you can't build other decks
    19:19:25 ChadMiller: because then you end up having to choose between combining or playing your deck
    19:19:33 ChadMiller: and not playing combine is borderline suicidal
    19:19:34 icewolf34: at least sometimes now you have to choose between playing combine or like, training day or something
    19:19:39 SmartChump: in the same way that the red arrow is why you can't build red decks
    19:19:55 ChadMiller: well chump I think that's less true if you could combine and play red cards in the same turn
    19:19:58 Rufus: Right, and rook is IIRC the only character that can sanitize purple actions.
    19:20:13 ChadMiller: especially if countercrash is buffed, so you can combine and play reds, then countercrash on your opponents turn
    19:20:14 garcia1000: sanitize
    19:20:23 Rufus: convert to non-purple.
    19:20:26 ChadMiller: heh, the term from magic is "manawashing"
    19:20:53 SmartChump: And Rook can only convert to nonpurple by taking a risk
    19:20:53 ChadMiller: dunno why that type of conversion is associated with cleaning!
    19:21:10 Soteeek: combine's arrow becomes +brown would be interesting
    19:21:14 garcia1000: manawashing
    19:21:24 icewolf34: yeah that would be interesting
    19:21:43 SmartChump: Ugh, Jaina
    19:21:46 icewolf34: haha, lots of implicit buffs to it's-a-trap recently
    19:21:48 SmartChump: So little synergy
    19:22:35 ChadMiller: I told sirlin yesterday that a cool card would be "this chip is every color. +black arrow" but I think trying to template it would drive him nuts
    19:23:21 icewolf34: someone should suggest combine gives brown to sirlin
  7. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    I am fine with editing out my off-topic stuff from your copy and paste if you want to do that!
  8. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    So, some notes about various stuff:

    Forced Buy Rule: Must buy a chip every turn. If you can't afford anything you buy a wound. Working pretty well so far, doesn't change much except to deter people from building degenerate 13 card decks.

    Pushback Countercrash: Proposed rule, countercrashing destroys a gem in your gem pool, negates that many sent to you, and sends any excess to the player before you.


    Sale Prices: At first I thought this card was awesome but now I'm pretty sure it's borderline unplayable barring duplication with Setsuki or other ways to duplicate or recur it. Threshold rarely matters after about turn 2 from what I've seen, unless you blew a diamond or are crashing so much you should have the game sewn up. If you don't need the threshold, it's an almost strictly worse 1-gem that costs 2. I'm not sure how to make this card better without making it gross (it's obviously insane as a cantrip, for example). Maybe make it self-trash.

    It's a Trap: Annoying, especially with forced buy. Agree with current proposal to make it community chips only.

    Mix-Master: This card is reasonable in multiplayer but in 1v1 it's generally suicidal unless you're Degrey. Something like mixing 2 one-gems instead of one big gem would make it passable in a red strategy while still allowing you to juice someone up on purpose in MP.

    Stolen Purples: I have never seen this card played. It may have something to do with being a red chip with no action that doesn't actually affect the gamestate.

    Gem Essence: Costs 3 now, good change.

    Risky Move: I was going to mention it sucked but then I realized new countercrash makes it better. Needs testing.

    One of Each: This is probably a tad overcosted. It's not unplayable at 5, but it always feels like "meh, I have nothing better to buy." I'd prefer it at 4 but I may be wrong on this one.

    Combos Are Hard: Easily the best five other than maybe One-Two Punch, and if you have a choice between the two you usually go with combos and pick up DoubleCrash and 12p. I'm not so sure that's a problem.

    It's Combo Time: Never seen it in play, but another card that can get better with stronger countercrashes.

    Diamond: I haven't seen this card enough to hate it, but I can see why other people do.


    Anything not specifically mentioned is fine in my opinion, other than bullshit Rook and the purple cards. Purple deserves a more in-depth post, but I'll save that for later. Purple arrow on combine is my second least favorite thing in the game after Stone Wall.
  9. Rufus

    Rufus Member

    Thoughts for 3.6

    Seems like threads slowly die as the number of pages gets bigger...

    Regarding the whole monopurple theory thing - to make it work, a major thing that I missed in the previous post is that you need at least 1/4 of the purples you play to be crashes instead of combines - so there would have to be two classes of purple to consider.

    Jaina seems very strong in head-to-head games on boards that feature 'Mash Together'.

    Some thoughts for 3.6:

    I mentioned this briefly in the chat, but I think that changing crashes into red/blue chips may improve the game. There are some interesting implications...
    1. Players can now play blue chips in response to crashes.
    There are already a couple of blue chips - for which this is true. To prevent turtling from having an effect on crashes, the crashes should not get the fist symbol - though it can still cycle. Really Annoying and Self Improvement's effects make sense either way, Gemonade is already a crash counter, and thinking ahead doesn't deal with attacks. Bubble shield already specifies the fist symbol, and Stone Wall and Reversal are already crash reactions so that would leave the character chips functionally unaffected in this regard.
    2. Players can now countercrash in response to attacks.
    Basically, the countercrash rules have to be rewritten so that they make sense in this context. It's not that complicated:
    With reversals:
    You may crash a gem in response to an attack that targets you. Play the crash from your hand and trash a gem from your pile. If the attack is a crash, then this prevents [1] gems equal to the size of the gem you trashed from being put on your pile. Coutercrashing gems larger than the initial attack, or against a non-crash attack will not have any additional effect.
    Without reversals (can lead to issues with attackers getting swamped):
    You may crash a gem in response to an attack that targets you. Trash a gem from your pile and put a number of [1] gems equal to the size of the gem that you trashed to the attacking players' pile.

    Thinking Ahead should probably not be able to prevent counter-crashes, so to make this work properly, crash should probably also not have a blue shield symbol.

    Why I think this is interesting:
    Making Crashes Red/Blue means that blue and red arrows get a lot more valuable and purple arrows get weaker. This makes combine weaker, and a lot of other chips stronger.
    The chips with colored arrows are : Combine, Combo Practice, Take That, Gem Essence, Playing With Fire, Gem Essence, Speed of the Fox, No More Lies, Chromatic Orb (by way of combine), It's Time for the Past, Living on the Edge, Hex of Murkwood, and Protective Ward. Of those, Combine, Burning Vigor, Chromatic Orb, and Living on the Edge would be reduced in relative value. The chips with red and blue arrows are generally improved, the rest are basically left at par.

    Self Improvement and Really Annoying get much better. Turtling gets a little better. Thinking ahead gets a little better as well because the cards that it countered got better.
  10. Rufus

    Rufus Member

    Stolen Purples can be one of the more powerful chips in the game, but is dependent on your opponent to go with a monopurp approach rather than something engine or attack driven to be effective. For example, against Mecha-DeGrey's superpurple assault, the current Stolen Purples ends up being better than a double crash.
  11. Fry

    Fry Well-Known Member

    If crash (and by extension, doublecrash and probably also Diamond) becomes red/blue, that leaves Combine, Mash Together, and Strength of Earth as the only things that are purple. Might as well kill the color entirely! (Maybe Mixmaster becomes purple?)
  12. Rufus

    Rufus Member

    Mixmaster as purple is a thought that I had too - purple/red could make sense as well. If we start with the premise that, thematically, purple is gem pile manipulation. Diamond is in limbo. If diamond just trashes gems, then it could reasonably stay purple - if it sends, then it might be red or red/purple. It's Combo Time, Risky Move, Playing with Fire, and Pilebunker are also good candidates for purple, and Glimpse of the Dragon could plausibly be a rainbow chip red/blue/purple.
  13. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    If crash gets a second color, it should be blue because it actually has a reaction ability. If it's going to be red just because we want red to have it, then we should do my rainbow crash chip idea that everybody hates.

    Actually making it purple/blue allows you to buy thinking ahead to stuff countercrashes. It also lets blue arrows chain into it but I'm not even sure that matters much.
  14. Majidah

    Majidah Well-Known Member

    I think the idea is to make the color purple a combination of red and blue. So red/blue chips are purple. There would be no purple color except as an arrow which is either versatile or restrictive depending on which direction we go.

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