Puzzle Strike Expansion 1.8

Discussion in 'Puzzle-Strike: Bag of Chips' started by Sirlin, Nov 8, 2011.

  1. Drinkdrawers

    Drinkdrawers Active Member

    Regarding Double Slash:

    If the idea is to slightly weaken the chip, it seems like taking the +1$ away will weaken it too much, and making it gain a 1$ chip is even worse.

    A good compromise might be to do both. +1$ to spend that turn and +1$ into your discard pile.
     
  2. Polari

    Polari Well-Known Member

    Isn't that basically the same, maybe even slightly worse than putting a [1] into your hand?
     
  3. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    I think we should try dred's double slash that clears out two 1-gems from your pile and gives them a 2-gem in their pile. Giving them a combine effect in exchange for lowering your pile (and increasing theirs) isn't something we have in the game yet, so it's interesting to see if we can make that work.

    Making all three of his chips "can't combo" is interesting flavor, but I don't think that actually works for gameplay because it's like anti-incentive to buy puzzle chips.
     
  4. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    So new Double Slash is a red fist like Dashing Strike right?
     
  5. Drinkdrawers

    Drinkdrawers Active Member

    Ah, I misread the posts that said you put it in your hand. I thought the proposal was that it went into the discard pile.
     
  6. Kdansky

    Kdansky Banned

    I agree, it's crap in most cases. Except if you're at 5 and have no crash in hand, and die ridiculously early. Its existence forces you to play ultra-pile-control. I'd go so far as to say it's a really bad idea because it might force mono-purple to prevent an early loss to a single bad draw.

    True. What about having the clause restricted?

    "If this is the only red fist / brown banner / purple orb you play this turn..."

    Might need a FaQ to clarify that you cannot fork, play it and then follow it up with something else from these categories. Or possibly explicitly allow that? Needs a FaQ anyway. Kinda unclean.

    Variant: "You may not play another red / brown / purple this turn". (And ideally have an arrow on the chip). Actually, this might be another option for Colour Panic: Choose two colours. You gain 2 arrows of each chosen colour, but may not play any chip of any other colour.
     
  7. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Yeah dred's version of double slash would be red. So all the more reason to buy some blue against him.
     
  8. Bucky

    Bucky Well-Known Member

    I really, really like Color Panic where it is right now. Please don't change its core role.
     
  9. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    If we determine new Double Slash is too weak (and I suspect we will) how would you feel about adding a Blue Arrow to it? Alternatively if it's too weak could Wartime Tactic be buffed slightly, something like:

    "Trash a non-[gem] chip from your hand or discard pile, then gain a different [puzzle] chip of equal or lesser value from the bank and play it."
     
  10. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    I can't speak to whether the proposed double slash is too weak, but if it is, then we can't really buff another already playable chip to fix it. I think we'd have to buff the double slash itself. Also, I think the proposed double slash is maybe better than you're thinking in that using it at the right time will probably make the +2/-2 pile heights worth it. They still have to crash after all. I could be wrong and maybe it sucks though, I don't know. At least try to find situations where it's good though.
     
  11. Centimetro

    Centimetro Member

    Becoming a red bannered fist will change the chip a lot in itself, probably moreso than the fact that your opponent will ante a 2.

    On one hand, if your opponent buys a blue chip with a reaction like self improvement or Improvisation, Double Slash may become a bad move... it not only gives opponent a 2 in their gem pile, but also +3 chips or a free action or whatever, making it that much more likely that theyll punish you for it

    On the other hand, being a red banner will make Double Slash easier to combo since red arrows are much easier to come by than purple arrows, allowing you to save your purple/black arrows for your real purples.

    You can probably use Wartime Tactics to pick up red arrows when you need them too, so there'll probably be more synergy with Double Slash/Wartime Tactics than before

    Sounds like its interactions are more complicated, so it'll probably be a more interesting chip now which is a good thing I guess. I never saw any convincing evidence of the old one being too strong, but it was pretty uninteresting
     
  12. Atma

    Atma Active Member

    Maybe make it red banner, no fist?
     
  13. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    The main issue I see with the new Double Slash is it'll probably be very situational. Like unless you're sure it'll kill or you need to play it to save your life or you know it'll disrupt a Bang Then Fizzle setup, it seems better to simply not play it.

    I feel like Double Slash will need something on it to ensure that using it actually normally benefits you rather than your opponent, since generally it doesn't improve your economy, doesn't wash/fork or otherwise allow additional actions and doesn't improve your long term pile health. Additionally it's also moving your opponent toward pile bonus w/o significantly harming their long term pile health; the fact that they're going to need to crash that [2] gem back at you doesn't really matter because they're probably going to need to crash anyway and Onimaru has no innate method of exploiting an overly purple opponent or disrupting their ability to become overly purple.

    Admittedly it might be the case that in strong red pools you'll be able to mono-red or near mono-red hard enough that you can use it to rush some characters down, but I still foresee him doing worse in these pools than red-centric characters and perhaps even econ/purple. Beyond that in strong blue pools the chip becomes almost worthless as the effect is if anything just barely worth it even when your opponent isn't drawing three chips off it or playing a free action. For better or worse he's become more pool dependent than he already was and I feel like he needs something to help him normalize if he's going to compete.

    The idea behind buffing Wartime Tactics is allowing it to trash Double Slash out of your deck in pools/matchups where you know it's worthless (it's fairly common that the configuration of your opening hands is such that you couldn't have done anything with Tactics anyway) and avoid making it too good in pools where it's awesome. It also avoids making him a more combo oriented character.

    The idea behind adding a blue arrow to Double Slash is obviously for him to wash it with Riposte but it also helps compensate for the loss in power Double Slash would suffer in blue heavy pools. I suppose putting money on it would also work but that seems boring and weird.

    I definitely agree we should test it before making any changes... but I highly suspect he'll need a change.
    This seems like something we should avoid both because it's weird (currently the only exception to the Reds are Fists rule is Chromatic Orb, and even that bothers/confuses new players) and because it's not really in Onimaru's flavor to bend the rules like that (more of a Menelker kind of thing I'd think).
     
  14. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    No red fist on a red makes no sense, so no. Chromatic orb is a weird exception because it's all those other colors. But just a red chip with no fist should never exist in the game because the red means attack which means fist.

    bbobjs what do you suggest then, other than +blue arrow? I mean if we found it was too weak.
     
  15. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Well if Double Slash is too weak, and Double Slash results in the character overall being too weak, and we're limited to only changing Double Slash, and adding a blue arrow is unacceptable, and I assume a complex/major change would also be frowned upon... hm... it'd kind of depend on why it's not good enough.

    If the effect is fine but it's not good enough because you can't play it frequently enough to make it count, then making it either Red Fist/Blue Shield or Red Fist/Purple Shield would probably work. If it's given a Blue reaction, I worry he might be too good with Blues are Good (but maybe that's OK) and generally too good against reds. If it's given a Purple Shield, it probably needs a slightly weaker reaction (maybe negate 2 gems sent?).

    If my guess is correct and his econ is too weak when he isn't able to hide behind Double Slash, then something boring like adding money should do it. Personally though I think the idea of money on a red chip is icky. Hm... maybe +Chip or the option of +Chip/Pig like Pilebunker?
     
  16. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Red Fist / Purple Shield has major rules issues. Remember how one of zane's chips was that for like 2 seconds. But then someone will try to react to the red part with a purple shield or whatever wrong thing. We shouldn't make a chip like that.

    Your last ideas make sense, but unfortunately that's drifting into not elegant enough for "double slash." I guess we'll see what happens with the 1.9 version, then reevaluate from there.
     
  17. Kdansky

    Kdansky Banned

    What about not going with all 2's on Double Slash? If it gives too much pile control, it could just give less of that. Opponent antes 2 1's, remove a 1 from yours, or even just double sneak attack without any pile control?

    If I get this right, the issue isn't so much its potential as an attack, but rather that it makes pile control too easy. Obviously having the equivalent of a combine plus crash in one chip without a disadvantage (see Jaina) is really huge early game. Flavour-wise, Double Strike should be just a plain good "attack" (might be purple) which you play, except if you have something more complex that is better.

    Something like:

    Crash two gems. Ante a gem the size of the biggest gem you crashed.

    Very good early for pressure, not actually very good for pile control (at best equal to a crash (2+2 is like straight crashing a 2), but if your gems don't line up it gets significantly worse if you crash 3+1 at your enemy, but keep the 3), and usable as a finisher late game (double crash with follow-up Hammer in-built). Could be changed to make you ante 1's instead if that's too brutal late, but I like the flavour a lot. You pay with
     

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