Setsuki Guide

Discussion in 'Puzzle-Strike: Bag of Chips' started by Aesa, Mar 2, 2012.

  1. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    I. Overview:

    Setsuki is a character that heavily relies on bank interaction, so she often must think on her feet to come up with a creative ways to set up powerful combos. Her key feature is her chip Double Take which allows for unique strategies, most notably those that involve heavy use of cheap brown puzzle chips to boost her economy. Her other two chips chain into Double Take, targets for future Double Takes, and each other to allow this little ninja to cycle through her deck extremely quickly. Be careful though- Setsuki can be fragile to aggressive characters, so don't forget about defense!

    Strengths:
    - One of the strongest, if not the strongest, econ gameplans in most banks.
    - Has a natural brown fork, one of the best because brown to black washers are by far the most common type of washer.
    - Two chips that help cycle fast, and one that keeps your deck thin allows her to be playing any chip she buys very often.
    - In addition to econ chips, Double Take has synergy with many reds, especially wounding chips.

    Weaknesses:
    -Poor interaction between character chips and purple chips makes her vunerable to rushdown.
    -No natural defense or pile control.
    -Suffers in banks without wounding chips, cheap econ puzzle chips such as Training Day, or brown to black washers such as One Of Each. Fortunately, banks that Setsuki absolutely cannot interact with at all are rare.

    Setsuki's General Gameplan

    Setsuki typically wants to use cheap brown puzzle chips to boost her econ to where she can transition into a powerful lategame engine deck. She is also very strong using Double Take with Just A Scratch or Really Annoying, and can also play an aggressive game by using Double Take on reds with Hundred Fist Frenzy. Due to her strong endgame power, most other characters will try to rush Setsuki down; in this case, is Setsuki's goal to balance building an engine to triumph in the endgame while defending a rushdown.

    II. Puzzle Chips

    Chips Setsuki Loves

    - Chips For Free, Training Day, Risky Move, Sales Price, Money For Nothing, Draw Three, Now or Later, Self Improvement

    While Setsuki loves most bank chips, her favorites are the aforementioned cheap brown (and a couple blues) puzzle chips that Setsuki can load up on and Double Take in the first few turns. If multiple are present, give preference to the one listed first. If you are lucky enough to have Double Take on turn two, you can almost always get at least a 6 buy with one of these in the bank. Note that the first 3 chips will actually upgrade your starting 1-gems; and Chips For Free can even upgrade your Crash into a 4-gem. Be careful using Risky Move versus very aggressive characters. Now or Later and Self Improvement can trash two 1-gems from your discard, vastly improving your deck cycling rate and average money density if you buy a 2-gem or better.

    -Just a Scratch, Really Annoying

    These wounding chips can be devastating to your opponent used in conjunction with Double Take; especially if Gem Essence or One True Style is in the bank, forgoing your usual strategy in favor of giving your opponent as many Wounds as possible is often a good idea!

    - It's Combo Time, One of Each, Roundhouse, Degenerate Trasher, Punch Punch Kick, Axe Kick, X-Copy

    Setsuki will usually be able to afford these very powerful expensive chips before her opponent. Furthermore, besides Axe Kick, they give her the required brown to black washer in order to play purples and other chips off of drawing them with Bag of Tricks and Speed of the Fox. She will usually want as many of these as she can (with the exception of a single Degenerate Trasher) get before she has to start worry about her gem pile.

    - Dashing Strike, Hundred Fist Frenzy, Iron Defense, Option Select

    Dashing Strike not only chains into all of Setsuki's character chips, but can be used as a defensive or offensive chip that can be bought and played next turn if you know you will draw Double Take without cycling.

    Hundred Fist Frenzy synergizes with Setsuki's brown fork and Double Take allows her to crash twice with it using a single red chip. If Setsuki is lucky, she can play Speed of the Fox, Hundred Fist Frenzy, and then Double Take a Dashing Strike to send 4 gems in 1 turn! While not all listed here, any red chips available in the bank can be used in a pinch with Hundred Fist Frenzy.

    Double Take targeting Iron Defense is a quick way to get two 5-buys and be set on Crashes for the rest of the game.

    Among the endless powerful bank combos you can do with Double Take targeting Option Select such as Stolen Purples + Mix Master, this can function as two Crash Gems for pile control.

    - Master Puzzler

    In many banks, Setsuki will be able to rush buying Master Puzzler as fast as possible. Note The Hammer is not as strong for her, since her econ tends to be bursty with Double Take and then goes away afterwards.

    Chips Setsuki Fears

    - Ouch!, Sneak Attack, Color Panic, Chip Damage, Pick Your Poison, Knockdown

    Setsuki does not fear many puzzle chips since she can make strong use out of them herself with Double Take. Because Setsuki often wants to play a long game, these aggressive reds are usually bad for her. The once-per-turn clause on Ouch! limits it's interaction with Double Take, and Setsuki is usually light on purples which can be targetted by Color Panic, or used to discard to Chip Damage.

    - Risk To Riskonade

    This chip speeds up the pace of the game to a level Setsuki does not usually like and will often force her to buy pile control chips instead of building her econ.

    III. General Tips

    - Setsuki can Double Take a turn 1 buy on turn 2 if she does not play Speed of the Fox in the first turn or draw Double Take without Bag of Tricks to pig it. This is extremely powerful and should almost always be used if possible. Similarly, any time Double Take is in your bag and you will not cycle next turn (or you can pig it), you can buy a puzzle chip with the intention to Double Take it next turn.
    - If you choose to discard Double Take turn 1, play at least one of your other character chips to cycle your bag during the first two turns. This will almost guarantee being able to play Double Take on turn 3 with your turn 2 buy unless you are redraw it without playing Bag of Tricks on turn 2 (note this means you chose not to pig it on turn 1).
    - Try to pay close attention to your pile height, pigs, and chips left in bag so that you refill it only at desirable times to take advantage of Double Take's powerful effect every cycle.
    - A common rookie mistake for Setsuki players is to go overboard building an engine; remember, in the endgame, crashing gems is the only thing that matters. It is better to draw half your deck and crash 4 than to draw your entire deck and crash 3. Furthermore, it is important to actually survive to the endgame in the first place.
    - While Setsuki is one of the only characters that can set up an extremely strong economy without ever buying money, it is often advisable to buy money the first one or two times you can use a brown econ ramp chip over engine parts.
    - If you are significantly ahead of your opponent in economy, it is probably time to transition to buying mostly purples and focus on crashing 4-gems to not allow them to catch up, but also not to unexpectedly die.

    IV. Matchups:

    Matchups Setsuki Loves

    Setsuki probably has the most favored matchups out of any character. She excels against characters without a strong rush or disruption game, as she will almost always have a superior endgame to them. However, note that in certain banks with poor Double Take options she can be disadvantaged against these characters that she is usually favored against, such as Grave.

    Matchups Setsuki Fears

    Setsuki primarily fears the rush characters that can add gems to their piles such as Jaina and Midori. She is also vunerable to characters that can crush her defense while performing a rushdown such as Vendetta and Zane.

    Afterword: Setsuki is one of the most complex characters in the game to master, but also one of the most powerful. This guide only covers some of the extremely basic strategies using Setsuki; experiment on your own to unlock her true potential!
  2. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    Been looking forward to this, but there wasn't much new info here for me. Amusingly, I think that's because I'd already picked most of it up from watching exactly how you and viva were pushing my face in.
  3. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    I'd also consider Self Improvement to be an awesome target for doubletake. Especially so if Money For Nothing is the econ ramp.

    The trick of buying an extra [1] gem to get a turn 2 $7 buy for a [4] with Draw Three is likely worthy of a mention.
  4. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    Yea I tried to make it pretty basic, I considered the Draw Three thing but I personally don't feel it is useful that often- gaining a 4 and a 1 really is only questionably better than gaining a 3 in most cases, and the section is kind of long already, you USUALLY have better targets, and yea I dunno, I've only done this like once ever and really it was just "because I can". However, if you strongly feel I should add it I will!

    I like Self Improvement a lot too but again thought there was already a lot. I will add that though.
  5. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    Yea your Setsuki play has improved immensely, this guide not really directed at you =P Some advice though, I think in the matchups we were playing yesterday, you should switch to pile control mode much earlier- you are *already* way ahead the instant I "waste" a buy on Riskonade, no need to do stuff like trash your Crash to CFF. Just don't die and you will win at that point.
  6. Menelker

    Menelker Member

    Having read this strat guide and having played against setsuki 5 times in a row yesterday i must say that this guide seems pretty spot on. I won 3 to 2 overall but the 2 games i lost (i was using Menelker) i felt were complete slaughters because the Setsuki player had so many good options in the bank and i couldn't into oblivion all of them :p Anyways, i'm rambling, great job on this guide.
  7. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    I'll watch for that more, yeah. I've noticed that I like to econ/engine til the last possible moment, often needlessly so. That's definitely cost me games. Thanks again. ^_^
  8. Kdansky

    Kdansky Banned

    Sets is the character I play about half the time (so technically, my main, though with the rise of blues and reds I find myself using Gloria more), and I want to emphasize that she rises and falls with DT. Early DTs like MfN (oh do I love this chip) or Risky Move are really good, but if the bank doesn't offer much in the way of econ-ramp, every game becomes an uphill battle. Her other two chips look better than they actually are, because drawing extra chips in the beginning isn't actually that much of an econ boost. You actually want to buy gems to use your draw power, but you want to buy puzzles for DT. Sometimes, the bank just hates you, and gives you forks you can't reliably play (One True Style) together with chips that you don't really want to DT (Ouch! and) but which synergize well for your opponent. One thing: I do not dislike Color Panic in the bank that much. It gives me an extra fork and washer, and it isn't much worse for me than my opponent. I usually draw more, and can afford to sprinkle in a few extra purples.

    Don't overengine. If you feel that you just need two more chips, then you probably don't, and should be buying pile control. If you go purple a bit early, you (at worst) lose your lead. If you go purple late, you can die to unlucky draws, which involves usually something like "draw your whole bag, but end up with only 4 brown arrows, three combines and two crashes", and while you look cool doing it, you're still not winning. I am so guilty of that.

    While off topic: I give Sirlin a lot of crap for some decisions (mainly wordings and other nitpicks), but in the end, Puzzle Strike is one hell of a good design, and I am always amazed when I learn some new trick that is one layer deeper than I thought possible. Sets was the first character I played when I opened my first edition box, and I still learn new things every time I see someone play her.
    NoahTheDuke likes this.
  9. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    It amazes me how many new little interactions I keep finding with her as well.

    I understood that she likes X-Copy, but only recently came to realize exactly how much. The stability the chip brings is just nuts. Being able to AK and RH to smooth out bad draws while also serving as washer + pile control when needed... I suppose the point really got driven home in a game where I was able to start the turn as a pure engine deck (original Crash as my only purple) and end by Doublecrashing four times.
  10. Kdansky

    Kdansky Banned

    I've just won three games in a row with XCopy into DCG without ever bothering to buy a single combine. X-Copy really needs its own entry in the guide. ;)
  11. Mister Black

    Mister Black New Member

    No love for Iron Defense?

    I agree completely that Setsuki wants to play a long game, and Doubletaking Iron Defense can give her a nice set of armor that can carry her pretty far. You won't be buying purples too early anyway, but this way you can cover that weakness to not having a crash gem when you want one.
  12. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    ID is good. So is option select.
  13. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    You could add a tip that if you're gonna Sig Move a DT during your MP, you should put it last. If you put it before that Combine + DCG you needed to survive, you'll manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. :(
  14. Plum

    Plum Well-Known Member

    Yeah the number of times that I've forgotten that DT is your final action is shocking :( There's nothing worse than doing something really clever and slamming to a halt mid-combo because you missed the small print...
  15. Turbo164

    Turbo164 Well-Known Member

    Yeah one of my first Sets games I DT'd a Gem Essence to get enough arrows to Dashing Strike and Improv and Combine and Roundhouse into the other stuff in my bag...

    Ended up buying a wound with my now-gemless hand. D:
  16. ApolloAndy

    ApolloAndy Well-Known Member

    Typo: Chips she fears: Because Setsuki is wants to play a long game, these aggressive reds are usually bad for her.

    Unless she can haz cheezburger.
    Aesa likes this.
  17. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    I updated the guide a bit. Also, thought I'd throw in this tidbit here:

    My personal favorite play with Setsuki is discarding Double Take turn 1 and buying Sales Price, cycling your bag on turn2, then playing Speed of the Fox into Sales Price and Double Take Sales Price on turn 3. There are several ways to do this, but just for one example you can play Bag of Tricks turn 2 pigging Speed of the Fox (and cycling) and buying a Sales Price. This will let you pick up something like a second crash and ~4 Combines on turn 3.

    Not sure if stuff like this should go into the guide, up to ChumpChange or whoever is making it I guess.
  18. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Hey Aesa, with 20 characters and 51 puzzles there really isn't room for specific plays like that. Here's what the guide looks like after it's edited down.





    Setsuki is a fast, creative character who excels at taking advantage of the bank. Her character chips let her hit the ground running and turn that momentum into high-end puzzle chips and powerful combos. Be careful, though – rushdown can ruin this fragile ninja’s day.


    [Triangle - mostly econ]

    Strengths
    - Very strong econ gameplans
    - Trashing and fast cycling let her play her chips quickly and often
    - One of the best character chip forks in the game

    Weaknesses
    - Character chips don’t interact with purples
    - Vulnerable to rushdown
    - Struggles without cheap econ chips or brown to black washers

    Gameplan

    Setsuki’s game revolves around Double Take. She typically wants to cheap puzzle chips to boost her econ, and then transition into a powerful lategame engine deck. She can also greatly slow opponents by Double Taking Just A Scratch or Really Annoying, or Double Take red chips with Hundred Fist Frenzy. Most other characters will try to rush Setsuki down before she can build up. High level Setsuki play must balance building an engine with defending against rushdown.

    II. Puzzle Chips

    Have you tried...

    - Chips For Free, Training Day, Risky Move, Sale Prices, Money For Nothing, Draw Three

    Setsuki loves cheap puzzle chips that she can Double Take in the first few turns. By playing Double Take on turn two, you can almost always get at least a 6 buy. Many of these chips will actually upgrade your starting 1-gems; and Chips For Free can even upgrade your Crash into a 4-gem.

    -Just a Scratch, Really Annoying

    Double Taken wounding chips can be devastating to your opponent. If you’ve ever got arrows to spare, forgoing your usual strategy in favor of giving your opponent as many Wounds as possible can be a good idea!

    - It's Combo Time, One of Each, Roundhouse, Degenerate Trasher, Punch Punch Kick, X-Copy

    Setsuki can usually afford these very powerful expensive chips long before her opponent. What’s more, she can play them to wash Bag of Tricks and Speed of the Fox, sometimes drawing her whole deck in one turn. Setsuki should buy as many as she can get away with before her gem pile is threatened.

    - Dashing Strike, Hundred Fist Frenzy, Option Select

    These chips can provide Setsuki some much-needed pile control. Dashing Strike not only chains into all of Setsuki's character chips, but can be bought and played next turn with an emergency Double Take. Hundred Fist Frenzy synergizes with Setsuki's brown fork and Double Take allows her to crash twice with it using a single red chip. If Setsuki is lucky, she can play Speed of the Fox, Hundred Fist Frenzy, and then Double Take a Dashing Strike to send 4 gems in 1 turn! And Double Taking Option Select lets her play it as up to two Crash Gems.

    - Master Puzzler

    In many banks, Setsuki will be able to rush buying Master Puzzler as fast as possible.

    Watch out for...

    - Ouch!, Sneak Attack, Color Panic, Chip Damage, Pick Your Poison, Knockdown

    Because Setsuki often wants to play a long game, aggressive reds are usually bad for her. The once-per-turn clause on Ouch! limits its interaction with Double Take, and Setsuki is usually light on purples which can be targetted by Color Panic, or used to discard to Chip Damage.

    - Risk To Riskonade

    This chip speeds up the pace of the game to a level Setsuki does not usually like and will often force her to buy pile control chips instead of building her econ.

    General Tips
    - Setsuki can Double Take a turn 1 buy on turn 2, and almost always should. Do not play Speed of the Fox; it will cause you to cycle, getting rid of your discard pile. You can use the piggy bank on Bag of Tricks to set this up.
    - If you discard Double Take turn 1, play at least one of your other character chips to cycle your bag early. Unless you redraw Double Take, you should be able to play it on turn 3 with your turn 2 buy.
    - Pay close attention to your pile height, pigs, and chips left in bag so that you don’t lose access to your discard for Double Take.
    - Don’t go overboard building an engine; it’s often better in the endgame to draw half your deck and crash 4 than to draw your entire deck and crash 3.
    - While Setsuki is one of the only characters who can set up an extremely strong economy without ever buying money, it’s often advisable to buy money the first one or two times you can use a brown econ ramp chip over engine parts.

    Matchups:

    Matchups Setsuki Loves

    Setsuki excels against characters without a strong rush or disruption game, as she will almost always have a superior endgame to them. However, note that in certain banks with poor Double Take options she can be disadvantaged against these characters that she is usually favored against, such as Grave.

    Matchups Setsuki Fears

    Setsuki primarily fears the rush characters that can add gems to their piles such as Jaina and Midori. She is also vunerable to characters that can crush her defense while performing a rushdown such as Vendetta and Zane.
    Aesa likes this.
  19. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    Not counting triangle description, this article is 871 words. How close to that do we need to be? +/- 100 words, or what.
  20. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    That's about right. One of the goals here was to bring everything under 1000 words. The edited Midori guide is about 970, and comes to three pages (with no images but the triangle).
  21. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    So which ones are you guys working on so I can do the rest? I'll do mine of course.
  22. Rufus

    Rufus Member

    The single most frequent short play mistake that I make with double take is to forget that I can play chips from the discard with it. Especially with her ersatz cantrip character chips, there are a lot of early game opportunities to buy chips so that they can be double-taken the next turn.

    I'm probably also way too engine oriented, but discard double take stuff is much easier to explain.
  23. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    T2 Doubletake is specifically mentioned in the guide already.

    If there were anything to be added regarding the ability to DT things in discard, I'd point out the interaction with CFF (eg. SOTF > CFF > DT) or the minor resilience against discard (dumping a chip you were going to DT anyway).
  24. Zomby138

    Zomby138 New Member

    I've been trying to work out how this works, but I can't even see how she can reliably draw her turn 1 buy on turn 2. Could someone please explain this more clearly?
  25. Turbo164

    Turbo164 Well-Known Member

    Fast answer in case you've overlooked it: Double Take can target chips in your discard pile, as well as your hand.

    If your first turn hand contains Double Take plus a combination of [1] and/or Crash and/or Speed of the Fox, this trick does not work.

    If your first turn hand contains Double Take plus Bag of Tricks, you can play Bag of Tricks, buy a chip (Training Day, Really Annoying or whathaveyou), then pig your Double Take. Turn 2 you will have drawn your other 4 chips + kept the Double Take, so you can Double Take your bought chip from your discard before it is shuffled.

    If your first turn hand does not contain Double Take, you will draw it second turn; so just avoid using a first turn Speed of the Fox, and only use Bag of Tricks if you use the pig. If you draw a chip without pigging, your discard will be shuffled as you draw the Double Take, giving you only a 1/6 chance of drawing your bought chip (or 1/3 if you used Bag and Speed with no pig).

    Basically you want to have drawn exactly 10 chips by second turn, and have Double Take in your hand, whether you drew it second turn or pigged it first turn.

    Good luck with future econoninja'ing!
  26. Zomby138

    Zomby138 New Member

    lol wow I didn't even know it could target chips in the discard pile! This changes everything!
  27. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    Some random Sets notes:

    I feel that most of the time, a turn 2 Double Take of Really Annoying or Just a Scratch is the superior option - even over great econ ramps.

    If there are any of {Sale Prices, Risky Move, Training Day, Thinking Ahead, Money for Nothing} in the bank, then Sets is often better off with a turn 2 Double take of Self-Improvement or Now or Later to trash a pair of [1] gems from her discard and then buying the ramp chip for a turn 3 or 4 doubletake. That leaves her with a 9 chip deck for better early purple density and greater likelihood of drawing whatever chips she buys when she hits the DT ramp.

    A turn 2 Double Take of Money for Nothing gives Sets a strong buy, but crap purple density. She absolutely needs to follow that one up with either extra purples and/or deck-thinning.

    A turn 2 Double Take of Draw Three will draw all of Setsuki's chips. That's a 6=buy unless she bought an additional [1]-gem on turn 1, in which case she can get a [4]. However, having an extra [1] in deck in order to have a [4] is probably only worth it in banks with Gem Essence or It's Combo Time.

    Dashing Strike, Ebb or Flow, Safe Keeping, Option Select are all pile control doubletake targets. There are a number of games where Sets just needs one or two more turns for her engine/econ to pay off, so buying these in order to DT from discard can often be a key defensive play. Improvisation and X-Copy can also be DT-able pile control, but they are slightly less reliable for such.

    Improv can be great for Sets- since she has arrows on two of her character chips and the third can be played as a kind of wild-card, but she does have to be careful about Improving into Double-Take, since that ends her turn.
    dereferenced, Plum and deluks917 like this.
  28. Delha

    Delha Active Member

    X-Copy is arguably one of the flat out best chips available to Sets. The versatility and power she gets out of it is amazing. As Rabid mentioned above, it grants you the ability to pile control off a brown arrow without clogging your engine the way buying an extra purple would.

    Even if you don't have a purple in hand, you can burn the first X-Copy on a puzzle chip that'll help you dig (eg. XC into Draw Three for six chips, then XC a Crash/DCG you just drew into). In this way, DT turns the chip into both a fork AND an amplifier. This is huge since her weakness to rushdown is largely dependent on the fact that she often has to decide between using her engine or crashing to survive. When you force her into the latter, the engine chips are all wasted. XC serves as a way around that issue.

    Finally, it allows you to shift gears and go offense with minimal warning. DT of an X-Copy into 2x DCG (or even DCG + Crash) is absolutely brutal and just about indefinitely sustainable. As if the lethality of crashing 6-8 gems wasn't enough, it also means you have the $$ to replace your consumed XC (or quite possibly buy MP/Hammer). Even when a player recognizes the danger, you may well be crashing huge on the very next turn before they have the opportunity to really prepare.
  29. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    Normally I just hit "like" but the button is inadequate here, great post.
    deluks917 likes this.
  30. ChryssalidTerrorist

    ChryssalidTerrorist New Member

    If I have Speed of the Fox, Double Take, and Training Day, I like to play SotF, Training Day a 1 into another Training Day and then Double Take that and double up a 1 into a 3.

    It saves me from having to buy another DT target with that turn's buy, and I can just grab a combine or something. It also helps with the eventual thindecking + training econ endgame.
    deluks917 likes this.
  31. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    Cautions about Setsuki setups:

    Gloria, Zane and Vendetta all have character chips which alter your cycling. Additionally Vendetta and Zane can knock key chips out of your hand

    In some rare cases, an opponent can use a t2 Color Panic or Riskonade to deny you the t3 option
  32. Inkstud

    Inkstud Well-Known Member

    Don't forget Perse (rarely).
  33. mediohxcore

    mediohxcore Active Member

    In general, what do you prefer to turn 2 double take: RA/JaS, Sale prices, Training Day, or Risky Move? Obviously this is matchup dependent in some sense, but I just want to get a feel. Is double riskonade ever a legitimate option?
  34. Vauceene

    Vauceene Well-Known Member

    I do not play Setsuki whatsoever so take my opinion with a grain of salt
    Really Annoying > Risky Move > Just a Scratch > Chips for Free > Training Day > Sale Prices > Draw Three > Thinking Ahead > Money for Nothing
  35. Bucky

    Bucky Well-Known Member

    It's pretty bank dependent in general. Against non-rushdown, I think Risky Move > Training Day > Wounds > Sales Prices >> Riskonade on turn 2.
  36. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    My T2 Doubletake preferences without regard to matchup
    • RA / JaS
    • Now or Later / Self-Improvement
    • Risky Move / Chips for Free
    • Training Day / Sale Prices
    • Thinking Ahead / Draw Three
    • One of Each (although affording it on t1 is rare)
    • Money For Nothing
    • Flow / Gemonade
    • Chip Damage
    • other :psfist:s
    • Trap
    • Gem Essence


    and doubletake riskonade is only legit lategame - pretty much never on t2/t3 in 2 player.
  37. Bucky

    Bucky Well-Known Member

    Also, wounding is much better going first than going second. If you can get the DT off before your opponent cycles once, it's better than Training Day.

    Conversely, if Setsuki buys a turn 1 RA, her opponent should prioritize playing their +draw chips to delay the wounds' impact by a turn.
    deluks917 likes this.
  38. mediohxcore

    mediohxcore Active Member

    Never though about that but you're totally right bucky. The wounding should MUCH better going first.

    I know maybe this isn't the place for this, but while we're on the topic, has there ever been any discussion about changing the rules to benefit the player who goes second in some way? I feel like there must be a way that's equitable, like a free pig or dollar on the first turn of the player going second.
  39. FimPhym

    FimPhym Well-Known Member

    I could be way off base, but I always thought going second can be pretty good. You can react to your opponent's first buy and often know the exact contents of their turn two hand. This can be relevant for decisions as Gwen or Vendetta or against Midori/Gloria/other guys with reactions. You also get to be an ante behind your opponent which can be good or bad.
  40. mediohxcore

    mediohxcore Active Member

    Is there any actual data collected about it? Maybe the advantage is minimal and it doesn't need to be addressed. Just something I thought about.
  41. Dogmantra

    Dogmantra Well-Known Member

    going first also means that if everyone has equal crashing power you lose so that balances it out
  42. Wobbu

    Wobbu New Member

    Some questions I have to spark discussion:

    Should I double-take RA/JaS before I start my econ plan?

    Should I buy two puzzle chips at the same time so that I can purchase a gem or a puzzle chip that I don't want to double-take on my next turn without running out of double-take targets?

    Is there a point where I should stop double-taking, or should I consistently be aware of and purchase double-take targets for almost every cycle?

    How many wounds is enough wounds? (24)
  43. Caphriel

    Caphriel Well-Known Member

    Yes, depends, depends, as many as possible.
  44. Bucky

    Bucky Well-Known Member

    I only do this with brown double-take targets, because if my double-take doesn't line up I can just play them SotF.

    If you desperately need something else (like a combine), get it instead of double taking. But you should still think about Double Take as a possible play next turn whenever it's in your bag. (Hint: look in your bag before buying)

    I usually stop at 4-6. At that point, buying combines and killing them is more effective than more wounds.
  45. rabid_schnauzer

    rabid_schnauzer Well-Known Member

    The least insane path to a turn 3 Master Puzzler buy I have yet found for Setsuki:

    Needed :pspuzzle: chips: Risky Move, Chips for Free, Master Puzzler

    Turn 1: buy Risky Move

    Needed Turn 2 hand; Double Take, 4x :ps1gem: gem.
    Play Doubletake on Risky Move to get the $8 buy and upgrade 2x:ps1gem: into :ps2gem: Buy 2x Chips for Free
    12 chips deck is now Character Chips, Crash Gem, :ps2gem: :ps2gem: :ps1gem: :ps1gem: :ps1gem: :ps1gem: CFF, CFF

    Turn 3 hand: Speed of the Fox, Bag of Tricks, Chips for Free, 3 more chips. (6 in bag)
    Play Character Chips, then Chips for Free, drawing 4 chips, and upgrading another :ps1gem: to a :ps2gem: This leaves 2 chips in bag (these bottom two must not be Double Take nor other CFF) use 2nd brown arrow to DT the 2nd CFF, trashing Crash for :ps4gem: on the first take and then redrawing the newly minted :ps2gem: and :ps4gem: on the 2nd take. Hand is :ps4gem: :ps2gem: :ps2gem: :ps2gem: :ps1gem: :ps1gem: :ps1gem:, so trash a one gem (preferably for a cheap washer) and get a $12 buy with a fully cycled deck.

    There are other ways to do it, but most of those involve not merely the sort of longish-odds here but also more suicidal play such as the deck bloat from MfN or the crazy risk of triple+ Risky Moves in opening turns. This one is nice in that a lot of not-quite good enough combinations of Risky Move first, then CFF still let Sets get Master Puzzleron turn 4 or 5.
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014
    zem, DrFaustus and Star Slayer like this.
  46. Caphriel

    Caphriel Well-Known Member

    Turn 3 MP. Good grief. Even turn 4 or 5 MP is pretty terrifying, because even if she doesn't crash anything, you'd have to somehow manage to crash something like an average of 1 gem/turn at turn 5 to kill her by then, which most characters simply can't do.
  47. Bucky

    Bucky Well-Known Member

    Turn 6 is the early end of when the Standard Rush hits, so nobody is completely hopeless against Turn 5 MP (since the MP might be bottom bagged). Furthermore, Risky Move accelerates that by a turn.

    In contrast, turn 4 kills are for dedicated rushdown only.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2014
  48. EricF

    EricF Well-Known Member

    Riskonade Rush:

    T1: Crash & buy Riskonade
    T2: buy Combine
    T3: Riskonade
    T4: Combine+Crash
    --opponent antes to 9 pile on their 4th turn
  49. Caphriel

    Caphriel Well-Known Member

    The idea that an econ character can purchase MP before even the most dedicated rushdown character can achieve a kill seems problematic to me. Freaking double-take :(
  50. DrFaustus

    DrFaustus Active Member

    Typo, but should work anyways:
    But wow, that is fast!

    Zane with Riskonade can kill in 3 turns (needs similarly lucky chips-alignment as the Setsuki-trick):
    1st turn: buy Riskonade (potentially steal crash via potato, if opponent went first).
    2nd turn: Play Max. Anarchy, draw riskonade, optionally crash or steal crash via potato, play riskonade(don't trash it) and buy combine.
    3rd turn: Play Max. Anarchy again, play riskonade, combine and crashbomb for 7 uncounterable gems send.

    Also not, that stealing Setsukis crash-gem counters the upgrading into a :ps4gem:.
    rabid_schnauzer likes this.

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