Sirlin, I'd like to ask you a question

Discussion in 'Street Fighter HD Remix' started by SkankinGarbage, Dec 3, 2008.

  1. First of all, thanks a ton for STHD, I'm lovin' it. I probably don't need to go any further on this; I just want you to know before I start that I really appreciate what you've done.

    Here's what I've come to ask you:

    In STHD, Akuma is now meant to be a playable character; he got a nerf to his air fireball, his teleport, his hurricane kick, and even some of his normals. However, a few days ago, a player named SaBrE (you probably know him, yeah?) mentioned that some of his moves - mostly his normals - were still ridiculously overpowered due to how safe they were. After he did this, I took the liberty of using the new hitbox mode to determine what exactly was different between Akuma's moves compared to Ryu and Ken's, and there's a ton of huge differences.

    - S.Jab is a lot larger than Ryu's and Ken's, as well as his S.Fierce.

    - S.Forward covers almost his entire head and extends past his foot, making it almost impossible to beat.

    - S.Roundhouse has one less hitbox (or maybe a shorter one) than Ryu has in the front, making it a lot safer against conventional jump-ins.

    - On all of Akuma's Neutral Jumping attacks except Fierce, the blue hitbox that covers Akuma's body is only half as large as Ryu and Ken's.

    - J.Forward and J.Roundhouse have no hitbox in the front, making it a lot safer as air-to-air than Ryu's or Ken's (I guess more important Ryu's, since it appears they were based off Ryu'sversion). It does have the strange disadvantage of having a blue hitbox that's a little lower than his red one (a disadvantage Ryu and Ken don't have), but it doesn't offset what's so awesome about this move.

    - The red and blue fireballs. Holy crap, dude...both of these fireballs have invincible startup! If you're reading this and thinking I'm full of it, turn the speed down to '0', go to training mode, and see for yourself.


    And, although the argument can easily be made that this was true in ST as well, some of Akuma's hitboxes have actually become SAFER since ST! Here are the list of things that are obviously better about STHD Akuma compared to ST Akuma:

    1. Standing Fierce (S.Hp): This one used to have the exact same hitboxes as Ryu and Ken. Now, as already stated, the red hitbox is much, much bigger.

    2. All Neutral Jumping Normals: These used to have the same blue hitboxes as Ryu and Ken. Now, as I've mentioned, they've all been cut in half (except Neutral Jumping Fierce, which inexplicably didn't get changed). There doesn't appear to be any differences in the red hitboxes.

    3. Red and Blue Fireballs: This is is probably the biggest one. The change is specifically in the prefireball animation. In STHD, not only did Akuma's blue hitbox match Ryu's and Ken's (which is really weird, because it makes the front of Akuma's horsestance have no hitbox), but it also is invincible on startup.

    In ST, however, Akuma's blue hitbox during the prefireball animation actually expands to take up most of Akuma's horse stance. Also, there is no invulnerable period during the animation.


    So, here's what I really wanna know:

    1. Did you know about all this? Were these changes made deliberately, and if so, why?

    2. (Maybe a bit less important): Is Akuma's fireball animation longer than Ryu's and Ken's? This question isn't really why I came here, but I'm sure it's longer and no one believes me :(

    If you didn't know about these already, I'm sorry to have to bring these up to you. If you want a more detailed report of exactly what's different, you can go here:

    Sabre's post on page 1 explains why it's bad from a practical standpoint, while my posts on page 2 and 3 detail exactly what's different between Akuma's hitboxes compared to STHD Ryu and Ken, and ST Akuma.
  2. Sloth

    Sloth Member

    I'm pretty sure he knew about it seeing as he was lead designer. Maybe he thought the damage akuma received balanced him out despite having safer hit boxes etc. Whatever the reasons were, it doesn't matter now.

    Good find though.
  3. You know, if I didn't know he was the lead designer, I probably wouldn't have made a post here, you know?

    The reason I asked is because none of that stuff is mentioned in the final change list. This makes me wonder if it was an accident or something.
  4. Furious Keys

    Furious Keys New Member

    I agree with SkankinGarbage, the change articles mentioned nothing the way it looks it doesn't seem intentional unless Sirlin was planning his own YogaBook to reveal all this stuff later on :)
  5. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    I'd rather not answer these questions now. I will tell you one thing that you guys don't seem to know though. There are 3 or 4 versions of Akuma in the Dreamcast version. HD Remix Akuma is not based on ST Akuma, he's based on the Dreamcast version of Akuma that has the Raging Demon super. That was the starting point because certainly we wanted him to have a super.
  6. SpicyCrab

    SpicyCrab Well-Known Member

    Any chance the hit boxes can be moved in a patch?

    Is this stuff really too unbalanced any way?
  7. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    I've read that Akuma is the worst, that Akuma is the best. Honda is the best, no Honda isn't even good. Blanka is the best, no Blanka is mid. Cammy is the worst, no Cammy dominates with pressure.

    Don't ask for changes right now, just play the best you can and see what happens. The most you can reasonably say is that you have "watchlist" of things that might be too good.
  8. Kayin

    Kayin Well-Known Member

    Would you even be able to take care of it, having left backbone? I mean, someone might be trusted to tweak a few things, but it's less comforting. Ya know, if it's actually necessary.

    Akuma is the only truly worrisome thing, but I don't see him being worse than another O.Sagat. It'd be a shame but not the end of the world. But who knows.
  9. I just want to reiterate to anyone who reads this that I wasn't trying to make an attack, or even suggest that it be changed; I just wanted to know the truth of the matter for my own peace of mind.
  10. BeastofBurden

    BeastofBurden Well-Known Member

    lol truth? Is there some kind of conspiracy to make Akuma number 1 in ST?
  11. lol, no. I meant that I just wanted the answers for the questions I asked. Obviously, it's up to Sirlin to tell, and it doesn't look like he wants to for now.
  12. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Moderator (old) Staff Member

    I think those are reasonable questions to ask.
  13. Avatar Z

    Avatar Z Well-Known Member

    Somehow, this reminds me of an earlier version of Yomi FCG (back when SF characters were a possibility) when people had mixed opinions about the Chun-Li deck, and Sirlin's response was something like (paraphrased from memory):

    "So half of you are saying she's too good and the other half are saying she's not good enough. Hey, I'm doing something right!"

    It turns out that Chun-Li (now known as Valerie) is possibly the game's most "perfect" deck (ie. not too good and not too weak, just right).

    Considering that people simply can't agree on the overall power levels of some of the characters, that might be the case for them as well. ;)

  14. DanTheTimid

    DanTheTimid New Member

    You know its funny, I've heard lots of people say Cammy is the worst, but no one say she is the best or dominates, only people argue "she's not as bad as people make her out to be". Not saying she is the worst or the best, just that I haven't heard anyone even suggest she was the best, or even near the best, just that she isn't necessarily the worst.

    Personally though I plan to continue to use her regardless. Now if say a month or two from now the general consensus is still that she's the worst and I'm still doing terrible with her against anyone who isn't significantly below me in skill level, then I may have to start asking for a rebalancing, but thats a LONG way off.

    Telling if a character is too weak is much harder then telling if their too strong. For the Akuma thing I feel confident if he truly is too strong within a couple weeks, month tops, some one will figure out how to break him, people will start copying that person, and then we'll have to admit there's a problem. If he's not too strong, that won't happen, and while people will still whine about him assuredly, we'll just ignore them and be happy with the wonderfully well balanced game we have to play with.

    I know I for one would REALLY like to know if a rebalancing patch is even truly a possibility, it was my understanding the programmer(s) for this game already left for a new project so this game is pretty much staying as is no matter what imbalances might be found.
  15. Kayin

    Kayin Well-Known Member

    In this game, saying Cammy is the worst is misleading. If you say something is the worst, people still think in ST terms. I doubt whoever actually winds up the 'worst' will be bad.
  16. SpicyCrab

    SpicyCrab Well-Known Member

    That's kind of what I meant. Until Akuma is proven to be too good, there's not any reason to change things.
  17. Marupix

    Marupix New Member

    Hi Sirlin, sorry 4 changing the topic here, but i wanna know about the new HD remix ver of the spinning bird kick aka the 'arcing SBK' but with longer sequence in the air before she drops back down to the ground, cuz i saw the CPU does it over n over everytime i play against CPU Chun Li...n i've tried to do it many times but still i got the 'short' version to come out all the time...
    I'm not talking about the 'delay' method of the "charge d, then u / uf / ub + K" aerial spinning bird kick version, but the "charge b, then f + K", the arcing SBK which goes vertical instead of forward as in classic arcade mode... this move can be executed by human players or it's special for the CPU only? Cuz i swear i saw it hundreds of times already when i fought CPU Chun Li n couldn't figure out how to do it:(
    And seems like no one has been talking about it i the only one realizing this thing?

    Please help make this clear for me, Sirlin. Thanx a lot in advance:) :) :)
  18. Vulcan55

    Vulcan55 New Member

    All I seemed to gather from that thread was not that "Akuma is still way too good", but that Akuma is still better than Ryu/Ken.
    Which may or may not be the case based on that Akuma builds Super way slower and the damage taking is really annoying and does put him at a disadvantage.
    So maybe you do have a hard time hitting him, you'll know that each hit counts, but even more so against Akuma.
  19. rtcrux

    rtcrux New Member

    Hmm.. I can understand you asking for piece of mind. But I don't find this a question that's deserving of answers. The characters are made the way they are made.. I'm sure its not a mistake on the developers part seeing as how much time was put in to this game.

    Akuma for me, personally. Is a balanced character now. Just like anyone else, if you use them enough and practice them.. you can become effective in most cases. I for one cant be successfully with akuma in most matches and find my self beating people who use him with chuns and ryus. I've experienced waxings by good akuma uses but i only put them loses down to better players. NOT miss balanced characters.

    Sorry if I have gone off track a bit or come across as "having a dig" But I am yet to experience anything from akuma that I would consider unfair or overpowered.. my 2 cents - just play the game and enjoy it :D
  20. tepid

    tepid New Member

    I'm curious as to the mindset of any patches that ..may.. come in the future.

    Will it be to take away what is determined to be too good or to enhance the other characters to a perceived equal level?

    My non-professional observational opinion is that taking away (aka nerfing) what is perceived to be too good and adopting the same 'wait and see how this change pans out' mindset is a lot less time and resource consuming than enhancing all the other characters to a perceived comparable level. This, of course, comes from observing MMO patches.

    I can't recall, and I could be wrong, there ever being a 'patch' that enhanced all other characters in a game to match a too good move.

    I realize that in a perfect world there would be infinite time and resources to devote to getting things absolutely spot on for every character involved.

    The challenge involved, I think, with the fighting genre is that you are dealing with frame input. Different people have different reaction times. While these times can be improved with practice and anticipation (Yomi?), there is always going to be someone out there with faster reaction times than you.

    All that drivel aside, I think you and the crew behind SSFTHDR did an absolutely outstanding job. I am not and will never be (age is a bitch) an international tournament contender, but I am playing this game and giving it my all both online and in my (strangely semi-unified!) fighting game community. So many new friends have been met due to this game's release.

    Thank you.
  21. Furious Keys

    Furious Keys New Member

    People are starting to figure out Akuma now, I got completely raped a few days ago, my Dee Jay had no answers for his corner trap and zoning.

    But I agree he just needs to be watched more, theres nothing that screams out broken yet.

    Cammy is pretty damn cool now! Fei Long seems to be the worst so far.

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