Sotek WitchHunt!

Discussion in 'Forum Games' started by Sotek, Oct 17, 2010.

  1. Sotek

    Sotek Well-Known Member


    ... only kidding.


    DragonChild - Enchantress
    Boco - Assassin
    Arkaal - Necromancer
    Claytus - Demon
    Rod - Silencer

    CWheezy - Mad Scientist, Lover.
    Milskidasith - Vampire, Lover.
    Shiri - Spiritualist, Ghoul.

    Chumpy - Werewolf Hunter
    garcia1000 - Acolyte
    Benoit Haché - Medium
    bbobjs - Leeroy Jenkins!
    TheMadKing - Traveller
    Beikoku Taichou - Wizard
    Icewolf34 - Martyr
    x1372 - Benevolent Old Dame
    AlexSierra - Survivalist
    brainof7 - Dirty Old Bastard
    Chocolate Pi - Priest
    Archon Shiva - Judge

    Observer chat, which basically consisted of me rambling uselessly:

    Vampire/Lover chats:
    Coven chats:

    GA Chats:

    So, okay. Witches played mostly well except for the no-NK while Claytus was alive, which was a big goof. They got screwed by PLAN S, and it is sad.
    Town fucked clusters, town ALWAYS fucks clusters, Chumpy's move was completely unnecessary but still wins him a gold star from me for entertainment, even if it was ill-advised.
    Town did manage to trip into some serious mistaken luck with x1372 running numbers.
    Vampires got screwed over, but they had a lot of options, too - they could have had Wheezy claim Spiritualist (which would have probably gotten him martyr-saved), Shiri could
    have laid low and when he later revealed, said "Well, we had good info, but I wanted to wait till I knew everything" or something. The vamps needed to do something to keep the
    ghoul off point, I think.

    Holy shit, GAs protected bbobjs successfully! That is amazing!

    Future versions: Plan S dies in a fire, GA info is nerfed heavily. Demon is getting his ass nerfed. Vampire gets Zombies (one-use lynch votes) by exsanguinating, and his entire
    faction can command them if they want to. Furthermore, Vamp will be immune to sac-powered NKs. Also, two town roles will be added. Modconfirm nun (who probably doesn't want to
    ever claim for fear of becoming vamp food, but . . .) and Village Idiot, who survives sac-powered NKs, but not normal ones.

    Also some various minor tweaks and I hear Chumpy is running it!
  2. x1372

    x1372 Active Member

    FUCK. Really?

    I thought for sure this was the end of the game.

    Also, I think its technically night 9.
  3. x1372

    x1372 Active Member

    You bastard. :p
  4. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Shiri - Spiritualist, Ghoul

    That explains everything.
  5. Sotek

    Sotek Well-Known Member


    Shiri didn't lie about his result.
  6. Beikoku Taichou

    Beikoku Taichou Well-Known Member

    Ladies and gentlemen: I have an announcement to make.



  7. icewolf34

    icewolf34 Well-Known Member

    Offered without comment:

    Chumpy picked the second witch on the list.
  8. Milskidasith

    Milskidasith Active Member

    Offered with comment: Chumpy is a moron who made a move that, even if the witches actually sac'd Arkaal, wouldn't give town any usable information and had a plan that relied on town guessing he, after saying he would follow plan S, screwed it up intentionally, as town.

    That's lovely. It didn't hurt that, y'know, it screwed me over and forced me to play pro-town the entire game or instalose to witches.

    Anyway, best players for each faction:

    Witch Faction: Chumpy.
    Town faction: Milski.
    Vamp Faction: X1372.
  9. x1372

    x1372 Active Member

    ... I'm not sure how to take this whole thing.

    Icewolf: after all of that chaos, do you regret saving me?
  10. Milskidasith

    Milskidasith Active Member

    By the way, guess what? I was honest. I never goddamn lied about any of the MS results; even Shiri being the same faction as me was true, sort of.
  11. Beikoku Taichou

    Beikoku Taichou Well-Known Member

    Milski keeps playing Meanhunt after the game ends.
  12. Milskidasith

    Milskidasith Active Member

    Chumpy's play was still really quite terrible for his side and would have lost the game for town if i didn't have a vested interest in that not happening along with the info required to act on it. If spiritualist wasn't my ghoul, town would have simply lost instantly.
  13. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    I know, but it explains why the lovers believed him and why they started thinking Chumpy screwed up and why we had trouble figuring out who the ghoul was.
  14. icewolf34

    icewolf34 Well-Known Member

    I thought you played great!

    If I had known your role, I might not have saved. I was trying to make sure that these guys were not NKed, in order of importance: Medium, Mad Scientist, DoB, Traveller. Remember, two info roles were already dead because it was way too risky to try to save the real Spiritualist. Also, I was trying to reduce variance because I thought town was a bit ahead at that point in time*. I figured Chumpy was Hunter, so probably the only town roles not worth saving would be Leeroy, BoD, Judge. Finally, there's value in having you as a basically confirmed non-witch.

    (*In reality, town was way the fuck behind at that time, with a dead priest and spiritualist and a corrupted MS.)

    By the way, here are some assumptions we started with!

    1 Spiritualist is town
    2 Lovers are town
    3 Chumpy does Plan S

    Let that be a lesson about assumptions!
  15. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    "I was making garciahunt, and then I thought, maybe 'Guardian angels can't vote for Coven' would solve this problem of super-check spiritualist.

    Then I realised that doesn't work; GAs can just protect the Innocent just before the witch. That way you even get the benefit of possible GA protection!

    Then I realised... man, I should have thought of this when I was still alive."

  16. x1372

    x1372 Active Member

    Yeah... the fact that we managed to win this game is utterly amazing to me. Especially given how badly I managed to personally fuck up day 2 and lead us firmly in the wrong direction there, WITH all the bullshit that happened. And then when I made my U-turn on day 3, I still managed to push the DoB toward lynching the ONLY ACTUAL REMAINING INNOCENT INFO ROLE.

    This whole thing was fucking nuts. Poor milskidasith, managed to watch everything go from bad to worse. Chumpy, what the hell man. Yes, I was trying to subtly get myself lynched D1, only to watch chumpy turn around and vote to self lynch, only to brazenly intentionally mess up the cipher... leading the ghoul-spiritualist to spit the wrong thing and get countered by a witch... dear god this is fucking nuts.


    Post 2180. That is all. I managed to come up with the exact world at the time through an incorrect assumption, and not convince anyone (including myself) that it was true.

    Edit (ha, legal now!)
  17. brainof7

    brainof7 Member

    So... ya...

    I like how witches killed me because of "blind devotion to lovers and a weak personality"...

    Really, more like blind devotion to CPi and naming most of the remaining coven!!
    Also, sorry about the blow-up on BH, but I think it actually kind of worked out for the better. If I had just killed DC, ya there wouldn't have been wall in the lynching, but town figured out what was going on pretty quick after that (with help of MS checks admittedly). Also, nobody was speculating who DOB should kill, that has happened the whole way along every other game! Makes their job kind of hard you know?
  18. Karrius

    Karrius Well-Known Member

    So yeah. I think Milski is just being super sour-grapes. Things WERN'T unwinnable for the vampires... they screwed up on a few things, pure and simple. You can't play a non-perfect game, and then bitch at other people for making your game "unwinnable". Witches I think did really well, but it was down to the wire and iffy. Not entirely certain what we could have done differently except for that single extra NK, and that wouldn't win it. Maybe not having Boco counter-claim? That would cause issues with Arkaal, ChocoPriest, etc, though.

    Also, Chumpy's plan was pretty good, in all honesty. It almost got us.

    Also, best enchantress ever guys, right? RIGHT? :D My lovers pick was AWESOME. :p
    Archon Shiva likes this.
  19. banewlf

    banewlf Well-Known Member

    So, as an outside observer who hasn't played this game at all and has only read this one, it appears the game is heavily favored for town to win. Is that incorrect? I mean, it seems to me that both the vampire faction and witch faction played extremely well while town played fairly abysmally overall and yet town still managed to win.

    I haven't really kept up with the other witch hunt games, as it's simply too time consuming, but has town ever failed to win a game? And if so, exactly how much better of a game did the winning faction play than the town?
  20. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Moderator (old) Staff Member

    Banewlf, it seems that way to a third party observer, but it's not really the case.

    The reason why town seems to play terribly? It's because they have inferior information.

    Also Milski please be nicehunt in my game ok because being mean to people makes people sad
  21. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Great job, everyone! I gamble, I lose. Or win. But for the wrong reasons.

    I'd like to apologize for calling bbobjs a bad player and Archon Shiva a good one. ;)

    I'm going to be the first D1 pressure target in the next game, aren't I?
  22. Boco

    Boco Member

    It's correct in this particular ruleset thanks to a bug in the Spiritualist and GA rules we've been calling "Plan S", but in theory the win chance should be balanced between witches and town if that hole is fixed (and Traveller protection expires).

    In CPi's variants things are weighted much more heavily towards town, and witches have never ever won (and never will without changes). In the "classic" Mafia rules, things are mildly weighted towards town.
  23. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    No way man, I vote Chumpy MVP.
  24. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Moderator (old) Staff Member

    For a new player, rod played pretty damn well, I think.
  25. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I think the overall level of play was probably the best we've ever had. No bad-player mistakes, lots of good-player mistakes.
  26. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Moderator (old) Staff Member

    Chumpy's role was Werewolf Hunter, but he was really more like that Leeroy Jenkins guy
  27. Sotek

    Sotek Well-Known Member

    I nominate Chumpy MHP: Most Hilarious Player.

    And, yeah, the overall level of play was great, and the Ghoul is a resounding success, like oh my GOD it was so good.
  28. rod

    rod New Member

    Thanks for making the game, sotek.

    It was fun.

    And thanks for making the game fun, everyone :)

    Sorry to my villains/villainesses :p I tried
  29. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    Hey, I got the vampire out, didn't I?

    That said, what were you thinking? Seriously, WHY??

    (gonna read chats now...)
  30. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    I don't think I'll play this again because it takes WAY too long, but I had fun in this one. I could have done better but I don't think I completely dropped the ball. UNLIKE CHUMPY.

    Good game, anyway.

    And yeah, Archon Shiva was hilarious all game. I think he said possibly every single anti-town, pro witch it was possible to say starting from day 2 onwards. I feel like he was doing a good job day 1, but then I also legitimately thought CPi was scum until Chumpy confused me, so maybe my opinion is just not worth anything. It also took me WAY too long to figure out Arkaal was scum. We were just struggling to find any possible scenario in which Chumpy didn't screw up. Maybe if we just abandoned that premise in time we'd have gotten day 2 working properly. And then we would have not run out of roleclaims so fast.
  31. Milskidasith

    Milskidasith Active Member

    DC, things weren't unwinnable for vampires, but they were put down to *incredibly* low chances and required making a risky as hell play because of Chumpy screwed up, and then they *were* made unwinnable when the witches sacrificed (basically) all hope of winning by not NKing. It's not so much I'm annoyed I lost, because I could have played better, but because I lost due to other sides playing suicidally, and you cannot deny both your witchmoves and Chumpy's GA vote were both suicidal (town would have lost, full stop, if the ghoul was not my spiritualist).
  32. Karrius

    Karrius Well-Known Member

    I agree witches should have made ONE NK. It would NOT have made a difference unless it was blocked. Once Claytus was dead, rod should not have NKed alone, as it makes it too likely for you to win. Simply put, given how the game progressed, it literally would not have made a difference for witches (it COULD have, but did not) and totally would have made a difference for you. So friggin sad.

    My action with the enchantress reveal was the best thing for me to do at the time, hands down. There is no argument here.

    Again, my point is - there is a lot you could have done differently. Instead, you focused entirely on the witches, screwed up protecting your ghoul, didn't figure out Chumpy's obvious ploy (had you done this, you would have easily named three witches and protected yourself as town), etc. There was a series of events that you could have gotten out of there with ghoul and spiritualist alive, three witches dead. You didn't take it. Instead, you bitch at other people for DARING to make you lose with "suicidal" plays that were often the best thing they could have done at the time.
  33. x1372

    x1372 Active Member

    Heh. I still have a hard time believing that both scum roles actually revealed perfectly true information about the other here.

    I wasn't in any way saying that we should assume the opposite of what a scum role told us to be true, but when someone has a vested interest in you not winning, its pretty much a given that anything they say is HIGHLY suspect, and if nothing else is being said in a self serving way. I certainly wasn't willing to take anything spoken by EITHER confirmed scum side at face value.

    Ironically, I had actually spent a little time looking into the possibility of the chumpy gambit thing very early in the game. This was especially true since, as BoD, I had been attempting to subtly get myself lynched D1 even before plan S started (x1372 fails epically at subtlety). I had looked up the pros and cons of targeting a different witch, and looked at best case/worst case scenarios for both. My conclusion was that picking the second witch was taking a huge risk for minimal gain, and dismissed the idea. I incorrectly assumed that chumpy would look at the same risk/reward and, if innocent, skip that idea.

    It wasn't until Dragonchild's reveal that I realized that I spent more time considering that possibility and realized that it almost HAD to have been what happened. There was LITERALLY no reason for dragon to reveal Mils and Cwhee to be evil that way, truthfully or not, unless there was another hidden witch who was NOT claytus. Of course, at the time I had still been operating under the assumption that either Mils or Cwhee was the acolyte (or, considering that they might be on the vamp faction, the ghoul was the aco).

    The issue that came up THERE was that there was a very high chance of Claytus being a witch, and even if he wasn't, getting him lynched would all-but guarantee that the coven was down to 1 (assuming one witch in every dueling info-roles pair). I was a little shaky on mils/cwhee, but still wanted to believe them. But no matter what, I had to have Claytus die before I revealed the "Chumpy was gambiting" probability that explained the Arkaal-Boco-Claytus-Dragon-??? coven.

    The rest... well, sometimes things just go perfectly. I mean seriously, after N3 everything went our way. We bounce off DC's protection, only to have GAs successfully protect a non-traveller to mess up the vamp. We went from almost making a mistake (clay at 5 votes) to successfully judging dragon, and him spilling info in the process. No NK. We eventually get Clay. No NK. Despite me being wrong in my assumptions about the correct thing to do, Mils jumps out for fear of an overly suspicious judge (still not sure whether I/rod/a lover would have been judged that night) and we end up taking him out just about as quickly as possible. We nail the last witch on the first try.
  34. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    The funniest part about this is that protecting bbobjs was Shiri's idea.
  35. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I kid, I kid. This game was actually the best use of judgepower we've ever had, and I definitely hope you're in the next game I play.
  36. Milskidasith

    Milskidasith Active Member

    I'm not sure why Shiri didn't suggest protecting me, because that would actually have made sense for him. He really had no reason to try to encourage protecting anybody else.

    Anyway, DC: how the hell is Chumpy's ploy obvious? Going over the actual numbers here, guess what: It requires a reveal of a power town role to confirm he protected the second guy on the list and *still* does so little for town it's not even funny, and that's *if* Arkaal gets sac'd. If he doesn't, it loses the game for town 100% unless vampire saves them, which I wouldn't have had reason to do if it wasn't for the fact Shiri was spiritualist.

    So yeah, it's not "obvious" Chumpy did a hugely -EV move that is only slightly more +ev than the real plan if the witches sac the first witch, especially after agreeing to do what we asked him too. Yeah, I made mistakes, but they were all forced errors I pretty much couldn't have avoided; my best shot would have been to have Wheezy reveal as spiritualist, but then I'd still be out a massive amount of info and I'd become a quick target for the witches. Obviously, if I would have known Chumpy was doing what he was doing and that priest was dead so witches instantly knew I was scum, I would have been able to act differently, but in my situation the key assumption was that Shiri would get martyr protected and saved.

    Also, a question: Everybody else in the game assumed Chumpy fucked up or was scum. Why would it be any more obvious to my faction? And further, even if I considered the possibility (because I was still 99% sure Claytus was, in fact, scum and so Chumpy probably did pick the second witch), how would I go about convincing everybody that Chumpy was doing what he was doing? They had a hard enough time believing he was scum.

    Aaaaanyway, for a guy who's claiming I'm having sour grapes, you sure are insistent on assuming I was perfectly omniscient, could convince town anything I wanted, and that I would be playing by different assumptions than every other player in the game.

    Finally: Skipping three NKs (I think? Maybe it was two, I'm tired) hurt your side tremendously, and trying to act as if it didn't just to prove a point is really lame.
  37. Karrius

    Karrius Well-Known Member

    Never claimed it was.

    Just explaining his reasons for doing so would probablly do that. A lot of times people went "Wait, Chumpy picked the second witch? But why would he do that? He must not have!"

    TWO nightkills. One of which was 100% justified, the other I said was a mistake that shouldn't have happened, but wouldn't have mattered in any way.
  38. Milskidasith

    Milskidasith Active Member

    You said it would be obvious, actually.

    Relevant text is quoted.

    Except nobody ever knew it was the second witch besides me and Wheezy. They went "He didn't pick scum." There's a *huge* difference between those two thoughts.

    Neither of them were justified and both were mistakes. If you had been making the NKs, you would have been able to win unless I managed to guess Rod's role correctly, and I probably wouldn't have.
  39. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    In two games you guys will put town's fate in my hands again, having forgotten this game like you forgot G3.
  40. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    "I'm not sure why Shiri didn't suggest protecting me, because that would actually have made sense for him. He really had no reason to try to encourage protecting anybody else."

    I would have, except that by the time it came up, Claytus had checked you as evil and we got that info in GA chat, so it would have been completely worthless and blown my cover. I DID get a bunch of proxy votes on me after bailing bbobjs out though, so I told Sotek I was protecting Milsk every chance I got after that. It didn't come up though.
  41. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Reading witch chat, it seems like my plan would have had a much better chance of 'working' (witches saccing as intended) if Arkaal had been Demon or Silencer, and trepidation about losing more 'important' witchroles.

    This was actually one of the first things to occur to me shortly after failure, and if I'd thought of it earlier I wouldn't have gambled.

    Witches, confirm/deny?
  42. Milskidasith

    Milskidasith Active Member

    Your plan would have been unlikely to work even if a witch was sac'd.
  43. brainof7

    brainof7 Member

    What would have happened had they sacced? town would have been confused that spiritualist didn't point to one of the players in the NK I think
  44. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I put 'worked' in quotes, but I'm pretty sure someone would have figured it out if everyone remembered that N1 sac was even a possibility.

    I mean, witches figured it out.
  45. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    I actually started hammering that you were probably BoD because I was pretty that you weren't and wanted to force the sacrifice - not only that, but sacrificing the witch you pointed at was a terrible move for witches: the spiritualist stays quiet and we repeat the plan all over again.

    - but I never considered that you would point at the wrong witch -​

    We needed hard info, and you were providing it - rock solid, unmistakable info that our every assumption could be based on. Competing claims would have melted under the evidence. And I went on assuming all the while that you'd provided it flawlessly.

    That said...
    There are good gambits, that really help your side win.
    There are risky gambits, where the risk and rewards balance out but which trade skill for luck.
    There are bad gambits, which make things worse for your side.
    The are horrible gambits, which destroy any semblance of gameplay for everyone altogether.
    And there are Chumpy gambits, which are so horrendously bad that the other factions cannot help banding together to save you from destroying the gamestate by your own complete and utter annihilation, and causes them to so overestimate the depths of your position that they overcompensate all the way to a clueless win that seems completely out of left field. That, and nothing less, is the power of the Chumpy gambit.

    If they had sacrificed Arkaal, your move would have seemed clever, if confusing.

    I'll be happy to play with you again, on whichever side.
    ChumpChange likes this.
  46. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    :D Have you read G3?
  47. icewolf34

    icewolf34 Well-Known Member

    That's the one where town Chumpy used a bunch of proxy votes to systematically murder all known town, resulting in a (totally unplanned) wizard win, right?
  48. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    it was a murder-suicide, thank you very much :mad:
    Sotek likes this.
  49. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

    Yeah chumpy makes pretty shitty plans and dumbass plays but they work out because of luck
  50. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    quoted for dramatic irony
    Prime Intellect, Caphriel and Sotek like this.

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