Suggested Changes for v1.9

Discussion in 'Kongai virtual card game' started by FinalSlayer, Jun 25, 2008.

  1. FinalSlayer

    FinalSlayer Banned

    jiaflu and I were discussing this, and Blood Vial needs to be changed from giving +3 hp per turn on the bench to +2. Right now, it's by far the best vampire item, and very possibly the best item in the game period.

    With the exception of Cain and his Phylac, I don't ever see a reason to use anything OTHER than blood vial on a vampire.

    In other news, Anex is now by far the worst character in the game. Still.

    Focus

    What other suggested changes for v1.9 should be considered?
     
  2. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    Tomes+Ambrosia. Vial+Ambrosia isn't bad either but completely changes the character from a drain tank to someone who hit-and-runs nearly dead characters.

    Girdle+Corn. Not as much raw power but a reasonable metagame choice since it shuts off his obvious counters and everyone who puts a lot of thought into their decks should be gunning for him.

    MLM+Tomes, Chalice, or just about anything else that isn't a Vial. Between having such a low max HP, and his innate, and the fact that his attacks are all drain attacks, successfully switching him out isn't the time MLM needs HP unless he ate a Rising Dragon on the way out or something.

    Voss, yeah you're probably right.
     
  3. InfiniteOracle

    InfiniteOracle New Member

    Vanessa Voss + Blood Vial

    Vanessa Voss + Blood Vial = the new Helene.
     
  4. jiaflu

    jiaflu Member

    Going through the list of vamps, here are my thoughts on their Blood Vial possibility:
    Ambro - it's a toss up. It really depends on what your deck needs. If you need a tank/semi-tank, go with Tomes. If you need a closer, go with Blood Vial.
    Cain - I would almost never use Vial.
    Cornelius- I would actually use Vial over Girdle. Girdle is much more useful on a starter CC, but I didn't start mine in my old deck. Just as important as bypassing interrupts and stuns is to have a high health CC. Low health CC with Girdle means you won't be able to get PB off anyways.
    MLM - innate + low overall health means Vial has less utility. Tomes is good on characters with spammy moves, so MLM doesn't quite fit the bill. Chalice can be said to be pretty decent on most characters. Phylac and Insig are good bets for him, but simply because other items are ill-fitting, Vial becomes a really good item for MLM.
    VVoss - has been the best item for her, hands down.

    It's basically a powered up version of Herbal imo. While in play, you can be hit, lowering the amount of terms Herbal can regen you for. Yeah, you can be decked, but that's 3 attacks out of the set of 80 right now. Otherwise, you can range-dance stall but that just puts you in an energy hole if you guess incorrectly once. The argument is that Vial doesn't do shit once you're down to your last character. Herbal doesn't do anything while you're on deck.
     
  5. FinalSlayer

    FinalSlayer Banned

    They're both good on her, I agree. Depends on how one wants to play the character.

    I disagree. The vast majority of CC players nowadays choose Blood Vial, and it's not even close. Who is CC's counter you're referring to? Helene? She gets destroyed by him anyways.

    Yeah, Chalice is another good choice, and possibly even a bit better.

    However, I think Blood Vial is much better than Tomes on him. By a mile. Maybe it's not as hugely overpowered as I believed at first, but I still think it's the best Necro item by a huge margin, and very possibly the best one overall in the game.
     
  6. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    Cain at close, popo, maybe higashi. That's about it, really....
     
  7. Sooty

    Sooty Member

    I had suspected Blood Vial to be very powerful (I was praying and praying to win it but no luck so far) but never read anyone mention about it so far, and it seems like there was grounds for it.

    Double Blood Vial on CC and VV now feels very good, but given the double item requirement not many people should be able to use it. In any case, it'd be nice if someone could try this combination for a while to see if it's tier one (or higher... secret tier!)
     
  8. jiaflu

    jiaflu Member

    Yeah, I know the new patch as been out for only one day, but there are a few things that I'd like to see (or wanted to see in the 1.8 patch, but just didn't happen). One of my main motivations for these changes is so that more than just one single item becomes viable for certain characters as well as improving match-ups for others. In alphabetical order of characters, then items:

    Characters

    Andromeda
    * Lightning Arrow, speed up 5 -> 7. (Will make Valk into useful optional instead of mandatory item)
    * Rain of Arrows, speed up 3 -> 4
    * Trueshot, speed up 2 -> 3
    * Dark defense, up from 2 -> 3. (Last three changes made so she doesn't get owned quite as badly by dark ranged attacks. I think people fail to understand that currently, Andro is not a ranged character that fights well against other ranged characters. She's a ranged character that rapes tanks.)
    Anex
    * Innate, When Anex's health is below 50%, she deals 30% more damage. (Makes it harder to get around her innate, powers her up quicker, differentiates from Cain, makes up for lack of Phylac, makes Herbal more viable)
    * Boomerang Chakkra, speed up 5 -> 6 (makes the move marginally more useful, getting around several dark ranged attack making Valk not a necessity and allow her to pack something like Breastplate. Also lets her tie suggested Shuri's speed with Valk's.)
    Helene
    * Frenzied Strikes, speed up 7 -> 8 (Valk becomes optional instead of almost mandatory. The other option is to lower speed 6 -> 5, but that allows a bunch of nasty skills through that I would prefer not to see)
    Higashi
    * Open Palm, interrupt proc up 25% -> 40% (everyone wanted lowered Palm proc because it was a spammable, high speed, high damage, un-Girdlable stun. However, now that it's an interrupt, 40% is a fairer number)
    Juju
    * Touch of Doom, countdown lowered from 4 -> 3. (I don't understand why this wasn't applied in 1.8 in the first place. "3 turns" means current + 3 worth of action, giving the opponent a lot of time even if it did land)
    * Hex, damage changed from 8x5 -> 10x4. (Doesn't affect his good ranged matchups that much, increases his bad ranged matchup potency)
    Marquis Le Morte
    * Blood Burn, replaced with something that has an hp cost instead of an energy one. Could do either dmg or refill energy.
    Onimaru
    * Sword Flurry, energy down from 30 -> 25
    * Double Slash, energy up from 40 -> 45
    (Makes Oni more interesting to play and Scroll less of a must-use item for him)
    Rumiko
    * Shuriken Barrage, damage changed from 11x4 -> 10x4, speed up from 7 -> 8. (changed to reflect flavour of a Ninja. Fast, shifty, hit-and-run. Damage lowered again to balanced around 70 health, 2 phys def of ranged 'zons and to offset speed increase. Currently, she still 2 shots Andro and Anex while taking only one back.)
    Ubuntu
    * Need to do more research.

    Items

    Blood Vial, lower from healing 3hp/turn -> 2hp/turn on deck.
    Ring of Curses, changed from "attacker's hit rate is reduced by 10% for 10 turns" to "attacker's hit rate is reduced by 15% for 6 turns"
    Sharpening Stone, not sure if it was intentional that it mods by x 1.3, but actual crit% increase needs to be additive.
    Tiger's Claw, I feel still a bit redundant with Deadly Poison as is and very limited in use (read: for Zina only)
     
  9. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    Blood vial was the secret overpowered item that only the good people knew was good :) The reason is that with 3 characters, you spend twice the time in deck than you do in play. Therefore, blood vial is roughly twice as good as healing salve. I think "When in deck, heals an additional 1 or 2 HP" would be fine.

    True story: I was playing some mouthy newbie and he said "use your best team I will kick your ass"

    Then I start with Cornelius/vial. He says "why blood vial"

    Then I switch to Yoshiro, "why yoshiro"

    I finish off with Ubuntu's rain dance, "why ubuntu"

    Then he says "I want to play against your best team" after the match

    :confused: :confused: :confused:
     
  10. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    Jiaflu:

    okay here's what i disagree with...

    Helene: No, i think it's fine how it is. It should be speed 7 so that poison dart matches with helene's frenzied strikes.
    Higashi: Raise even more, possibly 50-60. Cain does tackle with slightly more damage and a higher proc rate at 30 energy, so higashi's open palm needs a buff.

    Blood Vial: I need your reasoning so that i can counter-point it. And yes, i know it's powerful, but back when it was 2, the characters that returned to battle weren't useful enough with such a small amount of HP back.
     
  11. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    Corn, maybe I'm wrong. MLM, I'm just not seeing it. Due to his innate, switching him out is a minimum +22hp before he comes back, his max HP is 60, and his attacks heal him. Whenever I roll him in random decks, if he makes it back to the bench his HP recovers almost as quickly as his energy without vial. On the other hand, when he's in play actually taking damage, General's Insignia adds a guaranteed +4 to his drain attacks while Tomes adds an average of +3ish and also allows for the random teleport proc; meanwhile, Chalice solves his energy problem against people who try to rangedance and then switch. I fail to see how shaving a couple turns off his bench recovery is so amazing compared to any of those things.
     
  12. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    A few comments on your proposed changes, jiaflu!

    I think lightning arrow was meant to be speed 9. One problem with Andromeda currently is that crippling shot is dominated by her other options.


    I like the innate idea. Although, I don't think the chakkra needs to change. If it did change, I'd lower the slow on chakkra slash from -3 to -2.

    30% seems good to me. 50% would make it a super Cain tackle basically

    I disagree with first change but agree with second change :)


    HE IS FINE aaaaaaaaaaaah :eek:


    15% for 5 turns, I like

    I don't even use claw on Zina now, remember it's useless when beast feast activates. Needs some changes I agree
     
  13. jiaflu

    jiaflu Member

    Esiex - I was considering your post and as I was twiddling around with the numbers, I raised it, then changed my mind and dropped it back down again, but then raised it again (and dropped it again after reading garcia's post). I'm very split about it; the reason is that Palm outspeeds a whole slew of speed 7 attacks plus packs quite a punch with Insig. Gonna leave it at 50% for now, but I'd hate to see it being spammed over and over again like the old HigSig.

    I don't understand why Frenzy should match Darts? Darts is a nice dual-range pinger, but this shouldn't matter? Taf and Rumi matchups relatively even with Helene prior to changes only because of Enchant Blade, but it's a tad bit better now. Don't really see issue against Popo either. Enchant Blades are easy to dance around. I think being able to drop the Valk is of more importance.

    Blood Vial helps you regain enough hp throughout a match for a brand new character. Herbal doesn't because you're continously taking punishment. It also heals them faster into non-lethal range so you can safely bring them back out on the table as well.
     
  14. InfiniteOracle

    InfiniteOracle New Member

    Tiger Claw

    Has anyone considered making the effect "your attacks have a 20% chance to Interrupt the opponent's attack"?
     
  15. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

  16. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    Jiaflu:

    * you don't see people spamming cain's tackle, so why would they spam Hig's 50% proc interrupt too?
    * Okay, so why do you need valk for frenzied in the first place? Speed 7 frenzied is plenty fast enough to beat most attacks.
    * About Blood Vial: Maybe this is just my deck and I, but I usually can't use the same two characters long enough to restore my Corn to full or close to full. The extra 30 HP is really useful though, usually enough to withstand 1 attack.
     
  17. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    Esie, it's for the mirror. Part of the reason Valk was so necessary pre-patch is because ValkHelene could Bash->Frenzied->Frenzied and take only 42 damage while killing a non-Valked Helene.
     
  18. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    Chad, that doesn't answer why frenzied needs to be speed 8.

    EDIT: Just thought of something, what if andro's crippling shot worked at both ranges?
     
  19. jiaflu

    jiaflu Member

    Esiex - Issue by issue

    1) Because it's about relative power of attacks. Cain has better options in Voidstream setting up into his real power move: Rush of Bats. Tackle doesn't setup into anything. Far, Dash is as close as it gets and is nowhere near the power level of RoB. I realized that comparing it to Cain is faulty because of the makeup of each character's skill set. For Hig, Sweep has limited usage at close range. The damage level too different from Palm.

    2) As for the mirror, Chad explained it perfectly. Frenzied needs to be at +2 speed from Bash so Bash can't interrupt it. The reason why you see so many Valk'd Helene is because the one not packing a Valk is at a severe disadvantage since Bash can interrupt Frenzied. If Frenzied is +2 speed of Bash, that problem doesn't occur. So why not drop Bash to 5? I explained that it lets too many nasty dark moves through making Valk almost a must again.

    3) You're right, it could be more useful for certain players than others. I guess it depends on play style and deck makeup too.
     
  20. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    I think making crippling work at close is nearly irrelevant. Compare to Phoebe's new hamstring which works for 2 turns.
     
  21. x1372

    x1372 Active Member

    Well here's my thoughts, going by the game's ordering of characters and items.

    ===
    Characters
    ===

    Amaya- mostly fine. Really needs to have shadow curse still effect the field when the current opponent switches out. Maybe cut another 5 off the cost of chi blast, or increase shadow wraith's damage to 14 or 15 to make it more useful (zina gets poison and her innate, voss gets her innate, amaya needs a damage boost to compensate).

    Higashi- he needs an excuse to use both of his close range moves. I'd drop his open palm's damage to around 22, drop its energy cost 5-10, and and increase its proc rate to 40-50. This gives him a scare move that's not spammable. Additionally, I'd make sweep up to around 28 damage, increase its energy cost 5, and cut its proc to 25%

    Onimaru- fine. Could drop 5 energy from sword slash's cost and raise the cost of double slash by 5 to make it so that not EVERYONE who uses him uses the scroll.

    Rumiko- fine. I'd like to see her shuris get back up to 8 speed and her evis damage down to 15, but she's good as is.

    Yoshiro- fine. I'm a bit worried about the possibility of an "old hig" style gamebreaking setup - open palm proc, rising dragon, get close rising dragon can be (80-3xpdef) completely unanswerable and unavoidable damage with a general's insignia. That's enough to flat out kill 13 of the 20 characters, only 3 of whom could even possibly get an attack off at the same time as the open palm, and only one (another yoshi) who could get in a parting shot.

    Andromeda- lightning arrow needs to be faster than speed 5, either 7 or 9 to be balanced. And I'm still on the fence about whether crippling is useful, maybe if its damage was upped just a bit. Working at both ranges would be great for it too.

    Anex- Has uses but is overshadowed in so many ways that she feels subpar. Either rework her innate to activate more (as stated earlier) or buff the enchant again is the best I can think of.

    Ashi- fine. Powerful, but fine. Only changes I can really think of would be maybe make axe handle 35 energy so it can be used twice after a range change (not that that'll happen often) and maybe swap energy types of bleeding and sig.

    Helene- jury's still out. I see people's arguments for putting frenzied back to speed 8 so a feather helene doesn't dominate one without, but I dunno.

    Phoebe- fine. love the changes. Its like we have a whole new character.

    Juju- still feels a tad weak. Hard to put my finger on what though. Maybe cut the cost of ToD down to 70 energy so people aren't so willing to change the range to close after 3 hexes or a hex and a heal. Still not sure if ToD should be 3 or 4 turns.

    Popo- fine. Don't touch weaselboy. I just wish it was more obvious that "high crit rate" was approx. 50% and the secondary proc rate on herbal remedy is approx. 30%

    Tafari- fine. Nothing to change here.

    Ubuntu- fine. I thought there was talk of lowering his max HP by 5?

    Zina- fine. Wish I knew the proc rate on the mistress command effect. The extra energy on her innate is just what it needed to be threatening.

    Ambrosia- fine. No changes I can think of.

    Cain- fine. the 1.7 change was perfect.

    Corneleus- fine. Powerful, but fine. If we're considering weakening him, lower the pilebunker accuracy to 85%.

    Le Morte- I still say blood burn needs to be removed in favor of something else. An energy destroyer of some sort (0 en move that removes 25-30 energy from the opponent) or a HP sacrifice for energy move (burn 20 HP to regain full energy) would work perfectly for him.

    Vanessa- fine. No changes here.

    ===
    Items
    ===

    General Use: All are just fine. useful in their own right but not overpowering.

    Ninja: Caltrops needs to have some sort of bonus damage to make it feel useful in the face of an improved rock. 12-15 damage would be scary enough to make people think.

    Amazon: Sharpening stone seems bugged. If it does get fixed, it may be too strong.

    Villager: Tiger claw needs changing. There's no reason to use it for anyone except zina as is, and even she tends to be better served by deadly poison.

    Necros: All seem fine. Blood vial might be a little strong, but lowering it to just +1/turn would be too weak.
     
  22. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    Jiaflu:
    1) Now that i think about it, i think you could be right, since a person has to suffer through 2 open palms in order to go far.
    2) Alright, it's useful in a mirror match, but one matchup is not enough to justify changing a move around. Corn will beat another corn if he has necro tomes, but that's not enough to justify changing around corn because of one item/character matchup.

    Chad:
    making crippling work at close range is really useful for an andromeda. It allows her to move far without needing to worry about the enemy stopping her.


    Also, another change for andromeda could be rain of arrows does 14x3 instead of 8x5. Andro cant kill a lot of characters in 2 moves and this buff would let her kill a lot of physical-defenseless and low physical defense characters much faster
     
  23. jiaflu

    jiaflu Member

    Esiex - Hardly comparable. This scenario occurs only if Tome CC runs far and Voids all day long, now that Hypnotoad can't be done on back-to-back turns. Non-Tomed CC closes same turn as Tomed CC runs and now it's a Dmg, Hypnotoad, Rest tossup. As long as the Non-Tomed CC reads correctly, neither are going to live long enough for Tomes to matter that much (at least not the 43 hp advantage that the Helene matchup gives). If Switching is an additional option, the Tomes isn't even the best item - Blood Vial is.

    For Valk'd Helene vs. Non-Valk'd, on deck is even the that comparison is moot. In play, the Valk'd Helene just completely wrecks the Non-Valk'd one by so much that it's absolutely imperative to equip Valks in order to even this up. Sure, the non-Valk'd Helene can go far. Valk'd Helene Enchants, close, slash, frenzies. Still death by a decent margin. A by-product of keeping Frenzied at speed 7 is that it's really now speed 9 because this mirror match is that bad, dodging several more attacks on top of the suggested speed 8 Frenzied. But speed 8 Frenzied will stay at that speed because Valk's is no longer absolutely necessary.

    To sum it up, the CC mirror is more dictated by reading correctly. The Helene mirror spits in the face of reading. You can be completely see your opponent's mind and you will still get dominated in this matchup.

    -edit-
    Making Rain of Arrows into less packets helps with her strong matchups - antitank - while it remains still so-so vs. her weaker matchups.

    -edit2-
    Does Lowering Rising Dragon dmg by 1 make his matchups significantly weaker? Three hit kills end up being "only:" Amaya, Rumiko, Yoshiro, Popo, Zina, Andromeda, Anex, Phoebe, Marquis, VVoss (half the cast). Dropping out are: Juju, Ubuntu (unless his HP is lowered by 5, in which case he's fair game again), Ambrosia, Cain. It doesn't look too serious, so we can probably leave as is. Lowering dmg does indirectly improve the matchups of several mid-tier characters against him (and Ubuntu, if he doesn't get the -5hp).
     
  24. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    actually jiaflu...

    the strategy fails if:
    * sacred candle stops the interrupt (both helenes die)
    * The non-valk helene stalls with herbal remedy and goes far (after 3 turns or so, a switch will probably occur)

    I'll illustrate the second point to you: NV Helene takes shield bash and frenzied up the ass 1st 2 turns. Then, NV Helene goes far. The valk helene must now rest 2 turns in order to attack again, and you can probably stall long enough to regain a substantial amount of HP
     
  25. jiaflu

    jiaflu Member

    If Sacred Candle stops interrupt, NV Helene dies, Valked Helene lives with 1 HP, 30 energy and a speed 7 attack/switch option.

    The 2nd option works decently well, but you've helped my point some too. So now you have the option of "equip any item on Helene except for Valk and Herbal and get wrecked no matter what" or "equip Herbal on Helene and play a long wait it out stall game." So you have bad option, and boring option. Somewhere up on the list of to-do right around "balance game" is "make game fun." Increasing Frenzied to 8 solves a problem that far outweights whatever negatives it brings in (oo.. beats darts, knee bash, tantrum at close.. Hell, I'd even argue that it's a boost for MLM that an Enchanted Frenzied beats out Vampiric Touch and Bash doesn't).

    -edit-
    Oh, right... once Sirlin's anti-stall rules kick in, you have only 5 turns to heal up. After a Bash/Frenzy combo, you need 6 turns to survive that Enchanted Frenzied that's gonna come your way.
     
  26. MaddAddams

    MaddAddams New Member

    I've been trying to play with Anex recently, and this is what I've found:

    * Boomerang Chakkra is useless at speed 5. I tried to use a candle on her but had to swap to the VC so I wasn't trading with Voidstreams every game.
    * Power Toss has the silliest proc ever. Besides the fact that the move is amazingly difficult to use in the first place, it's too slow to soft interrupt anything but Trueshot. It seems an odd match on a character who's strongest move is a hits fleeing attack.
    * Enchant Blade is mostly nice, but there's one way I'd like to use it that just doesn't help, and that's as something to do while I'm saving energy up for a Power Toss. It doesn't affect Power Toss, so why bother? Better off resting or intercepting. Does this require a change? Maybe not. Just an observation. Now that it lasts three turns instead of two, I don't feel the hurt of the energy opportunity cost as much.
    * Keeping her in her comfort zone is wayyy more difficult than it is for Cain. Cain's dark defense means he can take a Voidstream (a 20 energy always available attack) without dying. Cain also has a little bit less of a time with the poison darts, and access to the Phylactery - a decent scare tactic and reasonable Plan B. The suggestion of +30% damage at 50% health seems like it might solve this dilemma, I'd have to play it to know.
    * As of now, I think Chakkra Slash is reasonable. I think making it 1 speed faster and lower the proc adjustment speed by 1 would not do anything to make this attack stronger, and here is why: that -3 speed is useful if you follow it with a Go Far - Boomerang Chakkra.
    * A note about one particular match-up: versus Corn, Piledriver will kill her when it crits, and leave her not in the comfort zone when it doesn't. Coupled with her vulnerability to Voidstream (if you Blood Burn first, it's a killing blow at 24 damage) and Corn's resistance to Chakkra Slash's proc, this is just one awful awful match-up for her.
     
  27. zakid

    zakid Member

    Here are my propositions:
    Amaya - fine, perhaps a little increase in hit points to 60
    Higashi - also fine
    Onimaru - Sword Flurry 5x7==>7x5 and "hits a fleeing opponent
    ". Right now, he's a little useless with only two attacks, both close-range.
    Rumiko - Shuriken Barrage speed 7==>at least 8. That was her great weaapon that it almost always hit first. It shouldn't be nerfed.
    Yoshiro - fine

    Anex - damage of either Chakra Slash, or Boomerang Chakkra increased by 5.
    Ashi - Bleeding Slice accuracy 100%==>90%. This attack is just too perfect. With the Charm it's pretty quick and deals quite a lot of damage.
    Helene - Shield Bash speed 6==>8 proc 100%==>70% or less
    Andromeda - I haven't played this character too much, seems fine right now.
    Phoebe - after last update she got really good. I like the way she is now.

    Popo - fine
    Ubuntu - Spirit Assistance damage 50==>40. Please give me at least one argument that this attack is not overpowered.
    Zina - fine
    Tafari - innate changed into "Tafari deals 20 (or more?) damage to enemy that switches out"
    Juju - I thought for a long time about this card, but after all seems more or less fine.

    Marquis Le Morte - innate changed - 15 health instead of 20; health bar 60==>55 (exchange with Amaya :))
    Cornelius - fine
    Amrosia - fine
    Cain Salomon - I love him, but I still consider him a little to overpowered. Tackle damage 27==>25, proc 50%==>30%. Tantrum damage increase 4==>3. Perhaps Rush of Bats 9x5==>8x5
    Vanessa - seems fine
     
  28. x1372

    x1372 Active Member

    um, excuse me, but... wha? I'll just touch on the really bad ones.

    Onimaru - he's powerful now. This change would make him absurd. improve flurry's damage setup is one thing, but also have it hit fleeing speed 8 completely nullifies most reasons to have yoshiro

    Ubuntu - so you want to drastically weaken his one good move?

    Tafari - This would completely defeat the purpose of the character and drag him from mid tier to the trash heap.

    Marquis - Marquis is in no way too strong, and certainly doesn't deserve two massive nerfs.

    Cain - not overpowered at all, doesn't need massive nerfs that would leave him terribly weak.

    Not all of your ideas are bad but I'm not sure you realize how much you'd be destroying the character balance if these 5 changes were implemented.
     
  29. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    I never had that problem ever. The way I play Andro, being able to maintain->attack is extremely rare from most characters and they just spent more energy than I did on the range attempt. Maybe "irrelevant" is overstating it but I really don't think it'll do much.
     
  30. jiaflu

    jiaflu Member

    MaddAddams - CC rapes the same matchup against Cain, except Cain is slightly more durable with his dark def and phylac proc. Anyone with <5 phys def and <70 health falls to it... what can you do? =S

    However, what does help is the slight change in Anex's innate. Taking a non-PB to the face means at least a 2nd poweredup Slash or Far, Boomerrang before taking the 2nd hit back from CC.
     
  31. MaddAddams

    MaddAddams New Member

    Cain has that coin-flip interrupt and in order for CC to Voidstream Cain to death, he's going to have to leave Cain in the sweet spot for one turn. +Phylac = significantly better chance of pulling it off. Still not a good match up, but less disastrous.
     
  32. FinalSlayer

    FinalSlayer Banned

    Sharpening Stone has been fixed...and wow, playing with it, the item is absolutely insane.

    It should probably be toned back down to 20 percent.
     
  33. Xanthus

    Xanthus New Member

    Currently sharpening stone adds 15% damage on average. Doesn't seem that unreasonable, but it is sizeable. Toning it down might be good.

    (Actually it can be a bit more when you think about resistances.)
     
  34. jiaflu

    jiaflu Member

    What attack are you using? I'm still getting low results.

    -edit-
    Never mind, I just needed a bigger sample size. I went 1/21 with Bleeding Slice and then went on a rampage to end at 7/32. I wonder if the RNG is streaky.. crits 2-5 came in a row and then 6 and 7 were back to back as well.

    -edit-
    9/36... crits 8 and 9 were also back to back.

    -edit-
    14/50 crits 11-14 in a row (although this was across 2 game... 11-13 in one game, 14 in the next)

    The change to Sharpening Stone was made back when it was adjusted to match Insig at +6 attack. Lowering it to 20% might be a tad too much, making single hit attacks of 40+ being able to achieve the EV of packing an Insignia. 30% might be a bit on the high side with 26-7 dmg attacks breaking even with Insig. Assuming for Ashi that Bleeding Slice dmg is the break even, Sharpening Stone's break even is 22.2%. Adding 25% chance to crit seems reasonable for Sharpening Stone. It becomes a VERY good item on Ashi and fair on the other four 'zons.
     
  35. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    Sharpening stone helps multiple hit moves more AMIRITE
     
  36. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    Something possibly worth trying:

    SS + Trueshot = one-shot
     
  37. jiaflu

    jiaflu Member

    It's not one-shot. It merely increases chance of crit, not actual crit dmg. You'd have 50% chance of crit'ing with SS + Trueshot, raising EV by only about 5 points of dmg (up to 48.8). Max dmg output is still 60 dmg.

    I just spreadsheeted EV comparison among all 'zon attacks w/ Insig and SS at 25% (and Anex at the suggested +30% dmg). Pretty much even. I counted everything that had less than 1 dmg difference as "even."

    [​IMG]

    -edit-
    I might have fucked up Anex's innate dmg mods. I applied Insig after multiplier... gonna redo it for applying Insig beforehand and see how it looks.

    Okay, if applied before multipliers, EV comes out to: 34.5, 44.0, 80.2, 30.1, 40.1 top-down, making it Even, Even, Stone, Insig, Even respectively. This gives the 27 possible different 'zon damage outputs of: Even = 10, Insig = 9, Stone = 8 (4 of which are packet attacks: Rain of Arrows, Frenzied, Enchanted Frenzied, Rapid Lashes). At 30% crit, item comparison ends up being: Even = 8, Insig = 6, SS = 13.

    In any case, a change to 25% SS crit bonus is reasonable, though it could be argued that a group specific item should be strictly better than a general item (ie. Herbal over Salve).
     
  38. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    I came across another stalemate: Juju vs Marquis.
     
  39. Purechance

    Purechance Member

    well, I normally just lurk on this type of post, but then I realized, hey I'm in the top ten... maybe I do know something after all... (probably not, but I figured what the heck)

    card rankings/observations:

    TOP
    Cornelius – everyone plays this card. Seems a tad too powerful even after the changes. Corn plus girdle seems to be the default.
    Cain Salomon - everyone plays this card. Seems a tad too powerful. Cain plus Phyl seems to be the default.
    Tafari – good card as is (maybe a tad bit overpowered with deadly poison)
    Ambrosia – good card as is. everyone plays this card.
    Yoshiro – good card as is
    Rumiko – good card as is

    MIDDLE
    Helene – good card as is. I have no luck with her, but others seem to know how to work her.
    Zina – Good card as is. I don’t have this card, but I hate facing her.
    Vanessa – I don’t have this card, but it seems to be a good card as is.
    Ubuntu – good card as is
    Phoebe – good card (so far based on update)
    Ashi – ok card
    Andromeda – need to see how recent changes impact card. Looks a lot better so far.

    BOTTOM
    Popo – rarely see anyone playing. I don’t have this card, but seems ok.
    Higashi – rarely see anyone playing – don’t know how to fix. Need more testing.
    Marquis Le Morte – rarely see anyone playing. don’t really know. Seems to be ok. Need more testing.

    NOT USED
    Juju – don’t really know. Seems weak to ok. Need more testing.
    Onimaru - never see anyone over lvl 5 playing - maybe make curse -4 to all resistances for 5 turns. Maybe make spirit change attacks to light damage plus the resistance buff
    Amaya – rarely see anyone playing – maybe make shadow curse 10 damage to card in play
    Anex - rarely see anyone playing, like the idea of 30% bonus when health under 50%
     
  40. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    lol, i'm probably the only consistent user of popo here. Why'd you put him in the bottom tier if he's okay?

    BTW, some people say that i wouldn't be anywhere near where i would be without popo. Well... popo really fits my random playstyle so i guess there's some truth to that :p
     
  41. Purechance

    Purechance Member

    I put popo at the bottom, because I don't have the card (so it is hard to tell how he plays) + I very rarely see others playing with him. I didn't put him in the garbage tier because some people can use him very well.
     
  42. zakid

    zakid Member

    i don't agree that Juju is "not used". Ever since he was on the challenge, i constantly face him. Onimaru is also used pretty often - people tend to choose him as a starter card. I don't know why:)
     
  43. Purechance

    Purechance Member

    have you seen anyone over rank 3 to 5 use Oni or juju?

    It may be happening, I am only reporting what I am seeing in my games.
     
  44. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    Oni: no
    Juju: yes
     
  45. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    Seriously, this is something to watch. Rising dragon being 9 speed and hits fleeing is ok when he switches in against a damaged character (the Tafari effect), but it's really annoying when I have a 70HP, 3 physical resist character AT FULL and have to consider switching because Open-Palm proc = automatic death.
     
  46. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    So, something that happened last night against someone I'd never seen before:

    Taf vs. Andro. My 75 en to her 100

    Range: She gets far, I get close
    Action: I switch, she INTERCEPTS

    For some reason this works on everyone who isn't garcia. Apparently this includes me even though I do stuff like this all the time lol
     
  47. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    Juju has staff strike.







    Where's Juju's staff?
     
  48. esiex3

    esiex3 Active Member

    I've seen it, and DAMN it is HUGE!
     
  49. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    Marquis idea.

    Replace blood burn with this move:

    Both ranges, 40 energy, 1 speed, 0 damage. Applies a debuff: enemy cannot switch out next turn.
     
  50. MaddAddams

    MaddAddams New Member

    That makes his cheapest move 40 energy though. Also, what would be the point in using it at far? You won't have enough energy to Go Close -> Life Drain afterwards, even if you started at 100. I don't think this would be doing anything but setting up a Teleport.
     

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