The Normal Draw Rule

Discussion in 'Yomi: Fighting Card Game' started by Birdman, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. Birdman

    Birdman Member

    This is a new rule that I've been thinking a bit about, and I was hoping to get some opinions from the community about it.

    For those who do not know, the rule currently reads as such:
    "Normal draw rule: If your normal attack is blocked or wins combat, draw a card."

    1) How does this new rule affect valuation? Do early dodges become viable or even commonplace? Are early game throws now ok, or game-risking?

    2) In the same vein, how does this rule affect the Yomi element of this game? With the shift in value and the "feel" of normal attacks will we see a shift in player tendencies?

    3) How will this affect character balance? Will we see any significant shifts in game balance? (Will Val or Jaina be too good? Will the grapplers still hurt, despite the defensive mastery?)

    4) On a personal, more subjective level, what do you think about the rule? Does it get in the way of game clarity? Does it not feel rewarding enough to successfully read an attack and block it?

    Anyways, it's a cool new rule, imo, and I think the one thing it definitely does is reduce dependance on early hands, as many character's normals are weak early, and this makes a hand stacked with normals early game a little less sub-optimal.

    So, a penny for your thoughts?

    EDIT: So far
    Pros: More cards (more combos), more meaningful normal attacks, Greater variety of attack speeds to play in combat.

    Cons: Character balance, Throws risky to non-viable early, removes emphasis from hand management, an added rule (harms game clarity).
     
  2. DredNicolson

    DredNicolson Active Member

    It's my position that making normal attacks more attractive would be much better done on a character-by-character basis (via abilities and innates that incentivize normal attacks, or more "command normals" with atypical stats). But since it's been decided against to print a new version of the base set (only updating character cards), then a new general rule is the next best thing.
     
  3. Inkstud

    Inkstud Well-Known Member

    I played with the new rules IRL last night for the first time. Just a Bo3 Arg vs DeGrey. Certainly there's some sort of inherent balance shift that goes along with a rule like this, though I don't really have any sense of how dramatic yet. As expected, Arg benefited from the rule more than DeGrey, though not by some huge amount. Maybe each round Arg ended up drawing two or three more cards over the course of the game than DeGrey. That's an advantage of course, but it never really felt like some huge or frustrating thing where people's options were being shut out. Some characters are going to get more of a boost than others will; probably the ones to keep an eye on are Jaina and Midori (Midori because he benefits little and is low tier; Jaina because she benefits a lot and is already high).

    We both agreed that the normal draw rule is fun. Drawing cards is fun! It affected my choices in attacking; like, in situations where I felt I had a good read that DeGrey was going to throw, I was more likely to toss out a normal to get the draw rather than play it safe with some fast face card, just relying on Q's and J's to do all of my attacking damage.
     
  4. Choke Artist

    Choke Artist Well-Known Member

    Early dodges are still not great. Usually still don't have anything good to dodge into and +1 CA is usually better than -1 (or more) CA and a minute amount of damage early. Throws have always been best early, I think, now they are a bit worse. Making throws worse does not seem to help the anti-block agenda.

    I think it's hard to affect the Yomi, I think. You're still trying to figure out what the opponent is going to play. Just have to take into account that they may be more likely to play a normal with this rule.

    You'll absolutely see a shift in game balance. As was already seen with the necessary implementation of DM. With DM, grapplers come out ahead, because their opponents gain nothing, and they (Particularly Rook, and sometimes Troq) gain a little bit. Jaina will go up, Val will go up, Degrey/Geiger will fall, etc. Most MUs will be altered in some noticeable way.

    I think it's not necessary and affects game balance negatively and requires a re-print of at least Mid and Rook's character cards. The game was good without it, it will probably be fine with it (it really doesn't change much), but it discourages throws even more and that's not a good thing.

    I don't think it affects early hands much. I'm still not going to consider something 2>3 or 2>nothing a viable play. Most of the specials normals combo into are somewhat viable as combat cards, so I might still just play those instead. I might consider one if I feel like the opponent is going to block or throw, but the payoff for landing a normal (without a straight to follow it up, in which case it would have been viable without the rule) is pretty low, and, instead of hedging with the normal, might just have to make a decision on what they are playing and attempt to beat it straight up.

    Basically, I think the change is pointless and unnecessary, adversely affects balance and does not improve game-flow in a discernible way.
     
    UlyZed likes this.
  5. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    It's not pointless and unnecessary, wtf. I mean seriously. Having normal attacks matter more is just more interesting, as is a wider range of speeds being played in combat (more interaction), as is getting a few more cards per game.
     
  6. Inkstud

    Inkstud Well-Known Member

    Hm, not sure about this. Jaina and Val don't get cards if they normal attack into a block, but there's still some card advantage when they hit one of those many throws with a normal, so that doesn't seem like nothing.

    So it seems like maybe whether grapplers come out ahead with normal draw + defense mastery depends on whether drawing a card off a normal is enough to encourage grapplers to attack with those super-slow normals of theirs. If it doesn't, non-grapplers are probably deriving more advantage because they're deriving the minor benefit of now drawing when they normal attack hits a throw. If it does, non-grapplers have more potential to outspeed slow grappler normals with their 2, 3, and 4 attacks, and more potential to draw cards off of them.
     
  7. Kawaiiness

    Kawaiiness Active Member

    I don't like it personally and never have no matter how it was implemented. I've crossed up with 5's on val before and had them land, but I'm not much more likely to stick out a 5 in combat with a draw rule. It doesn't change the fact that 5 is very risky to stick out, and it already comes with a huge reward on anybody as it's a 1 combo point starter that can now go into anything. So it largely affects the safer normals (2/3 on most characters).

    The problem I have with it is that it buffs characters that don't need it. Val is already very strong, growing in how people view her, Jaina is very strong, Arg is very strong, and those are probably the three it helps the most.

    My other problem with it is it makes throw worse early game, which is probably the exact opposite of what should be done for most chars which means that block is even stronger by comparison.
     
    UlyZed likes this.
  8. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    not sure what rook gets out of it really, since you don't get a normal draw from RA.
     
  9. Ryker

    Ryker Active Member

    Opinion?

    Simply put, because he possesses RA and it is a good option, Rook throws more normals in combat. Because Rook throws more normals in combat, Rook has more of a chance of hitting a throw (or even a slower speed attack) or block with a normal. This means Rook gets more than your average grappler from this change.
     
  10. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    I think it makes the game worse. Throw gets much weaker. Possibly the biggest gameplay issue in current yomi is that throws are weak early. This change makes them much worse early. It is a huge loss to get your throw beat by a cantrip normal. This change is going to lead to more blocking early not less.

    The new game will be centered even more around attack. This obviously benefits the chars with the best attacks. Characters that like to throw will get alot worse. I think a huge strategic benefit to throw heavy play is that it limits your opponent's options. Normal draw basically lets your opponent get out of bad hand situations much easier. The change also makes good hand management less important.

    I think the easiest way to understand the changes is to look at grave's Jack. Every char now has a way to discourage throws that is arguably more effective (worse on block better on hit) and in essentially unlimited quantity.

    Flavor wise it is good since it makes normals more useful. I think it hurts game-play though.
     
  11. Morn

    Morn Well-Known Member

    I really didn't want to dive back into this, because it tends to piss people off when I speak, but there seems to be a misconception here, namely that more interesting is automatically better. I am not convinced that it is. It would be very very interesting if, every time I hit with a normal attack, I then got to hit my opponent with a punch or kick depending on whether the card was red or black, that would be really interesting. It would also be a terrible idea.

    Normal draw isn't anything that outlandish, but normal attacks aren't really better just because they do the thing that block also does.. Seeing as how normal attacks have to win combat or be blocked to draw for you, it just makes special attacks, particularly DPs, that much better. Pretty much every scenario I can imagine, including ones I've played out, demonstrates to me that tweaking normal attacks manages to improve pretty much everything but them, by the mere power of encouraging their use. While this is decidedly more interesting, I remain unconvinced that it is better for the game.
     
  12. Scarbo

    Scarbo Well-Known Member

    1. Normal draw affects valuation by making normal attacks better! Early game throws are riskier but more rewarding since crossup is better than before. Early game dodge is still not good since most characters have their fastest normal (2) and its natural followups on the same cards as dodges.

    2. Players will use normal attacks more when they draw for normals. This doesn't affect Yomi. The normal draw rule could be "if your normal attack wins combat, you win the game" and Yomi would still be the same.

    3. Characters who win combat with normals a lot will get better while characters who don't win combat with normals a lot will get worse. Valerie and Jaina are better. Grapplers are much worse, even with Defense Mastery. There hasn't been enough testing to say that Val/Jaina are too good or that Rook/Mid are too bad.

    4. I think the rule is good! Game flow is improved a lot, normals are viable combat options for more characters, rushdown is actually good, hand management is easier, and the game is more fun! The only downside is that balance is much worse.
     
    Morn likes this.
  13. Inkstud

    Inkstud Well-Known Member

    One of the stated goals of the normal draw rule was to speed up the game. Has that happened in any significant way?
     
  14. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    edit: was gonna post something but do not have records so I will not
     
  15. Choke Artist

    Choke Artist Well-Known Member

    Right, sorry, forgot they drew on hit.

    Normal attacks matter just fine in the current game. They are not great combo starters, neither is Degrey's J or Gloria's AA or Suki's K. Sometimes things are just good as one or two things, it's fine, imo, that normal attacks are typically used in combos or for their flip side. It's not like they never get played in combat, some characters use them a lot, some characters don't. It's part of what makes the game interesting.
    Also, I don't feel like more cards automatically means more interesting. I think there needs to be some balance, too many or too little are bad, and the current rate at which characters draws cards is just great for me, and a lot of other people that like the game as well.

    Not that I can see. Honestly, probably slows down the game because you see less throws early and more blocks. Haven't been many super-competitive Normal draw games, though, so I dunno.
     
  16. Bodknocks

    Bodknocks Active Member

    I think it's a good rule for the game, but is totally unrelated to block spam. Ideally, throwing needs to be more threatening for there to be less block spam all the time.

    I also think everything deluks said is true, and it makes me not want to play Midori ever again. He's a bottom tier character right now, and is only getting worse with the expansion rules and new character match ups. It's frustrating, but I guess I'll just find some expansion character I enjoy and start playing them instead.
     
  17. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    "Interesting" in this context means "strategically interesting." I disagree that your example is strategically interesting.
     
  18. Majidah

    Majidah Well-Known Member

    First funny idea: I suspect that defense mastery would work better if it said: When you block a normal, draw an extra card.

    Second, as Dred said, correct way to rebalance is to reprint the first set. Not going to happen, therefore we fiddle with rules and char cards. The normal attack rule has a small impact on the game because it improves naked normal by a small amount. Poor option +1 != Good option.

    Edit: Second funny idea. I may do a theorycraft on this later, but what if the attack rule just said: When you win combat with a normal attack or throw draw a card. In other words, win with any normal except dodge = draw (heck we might even consider win with any normal = draw). If the big objection is too much "block v. block to build hands" why don't we just make it "only build hands on a win." and be done? Too worried about slippery slope? Aren't we also trying to speed up the game?
     
    NoahTheDuke likes this.
  19. major_shiznick

    major_shiznick Well-Known Member

    My understanding is that normal draw was meant to just make normals more justifiable as combat options. To a person with fighting game familiarity (particularly SF), the idea that normals are unsafe (highly unfavorable tradeoff) on block probably seems wonky. With normal draw, specials/supers are more "punishable" than normals (greater card advantage --> greater potential damage), relatively speaking.
    Yeah, this too! Jaina/Val are the fringe cases, I think. Maybe Arg too. Expo characters thus far don't get anything super-good out of it that I've seen. Ven has an alternate effect for normals, and BBB's normals are made good by Long Range, not by normal draw. Grappler disadvantage is a thing that needs to be watched, though. I'm not yet convinced that Defense Mastery helps them out enough. That is something to explore further.
     
  20. SillySod

    SillySod Active Member

    More cards per game is less interesting IMO.

    Hand management is one of the most interesting aspects of Yomi and chucking around extra cards spoils this somewhat. I really like that blocking an attack can feel like a complete arsekick. If this rule were implemented then blocking an attack would be "meh" because your opponent got exactly what they wanted anyway. So you are screwing with the feel of the game as well as the balance (which will be more badly affected than you might think). I can see why you want people to use normal attacks more regularly for theme reasons but it isnt worth the sacrifices you have to make.

    BTW, I suspect that this rule would also slant the game further towards attacks so you might well be decreasing the interaction by making throws worse. So although attacks are more interesting the game is overall worse because it has less variety and more attacks.
     
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  21. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    I agree with Sod that more cards makes the game less interesting. The fact that chars have limited access to their options is what makes yomi not rps.
     
    UlyZed likes this.
  22. Choke Artist

    Choke Artist Well-Known Member

    Agree with everything here.

    I also think that if people don't think the game is fun, well that's unfortunate, but adding something like normal draw probably won't change their opinion of it. Some current players may like normal draw, but they are obviously enjoying the game enough to play without it. Not adding normal draw causes 0 balance issues with the main cast (meaning no re-print, even of just character cards).
     
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  23. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    I agree with all the arguments that normal draw is better flavor. But I don't think this comes close to being worth worse gameplay. Flavor is not worth making the game less balanced and skill testing.
     
    UlyZed likes this.
  24. Ryker

    Ryker Active Member

    This post hurts so much because I believe it is true in its intention but will forever be ignored because of its phrasing.
     
    Birdman likes this.
  25. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    Flavor and balance/skill testing are mutually exclusive.
     
    deluks917 likes this.
  26. Birdman

    Birdman Member

    To be fair, Deluks didn't say that, but he did say that the normal draw rule does boost Flavor flav, but at the cost of balance and gameplay, which is actually a statement I'd probably agree with (the balance part for sure, at least)
     

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