Thread for discussing mechanics

Discussion in 'Yomi: Fighting Card Game' started by Lofobal, May 30, 2012.

  1. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    Claytus my view is yomi does not take too long to play. The current official rules state 50 min a round. This is similar to what mtg does (mtg is actually longer do to extra turns and stuff; maybe that stuff would be in onger tournaments). Maybe the data sirlin based his opinions on made it seem like yomi takes a long time. My view is that current data will not lead to this conclusion. Maybe things have changed in how people play yomi.

    Also no offense to anyone who opposes this but I think a huge problem in current yomi spectation is the lack of "Hands On." Yomi is much more interesting to watch with hands on. If you want to make it a better spectator sport fix that. One fix would be to allow only certain people to see the hands (plus maybe minor delay). I think this alone would make streams much more enjoyable. Block/Block can be exciting if the viewer can see what is going.

    ex) A player has only one block. Should he risk it getting thrown? If he plays the block there is excitement since maybe he will be in a terrible position. When his opponent blocks this is actually exciting. This is how yomi feels like to me when I play. But if I cannot tell what is going on these things are lost.

    Claytus as far as I know the following people claim Rook/Midori are completely screwed: Choke Artist, Volcanya, morn, Deluks917,brainof7,Kawaiiness + Scarbo to a potentially lesser extent. This is a reasonably successful group. If these people are right that is a huge problem.

    Huge hands are not great in yomi for most characters. Most people who are decent do not build them. Watch the last Mornament or especially the launch tournament. We should not build the game so new players cannot make mistakes.

    Claytus where are you getting this idea of optimal play? Choke, Kawaii, Friik, Deluks917 + others all posted they believe building up for huge combos is explicitly not optimal. I think most good people believe that (this depends on character of course but for most people building a big hand is not optimal).
     
  2. Kawaiiness

    Kawaiiness Active Member

    No, I'm saying that blocking more than 10 times in a game is like choosing to wait at the finish line for other people to catch up to you to see if you can outsprint them when you already have first place. You may not have the tools to win the game on turn 2, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be trying to put your opponent to a life total where you can win because on turn 2 they don't have the tools to win either. Blocking a lot is a lot more like preserving too much of your energy for the end of the race when you should have started running a long time ago.
     
  3. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    You're missing the point. RL tournies were held, players were not finishing in time. It really doesn't what your view is, or whether you can collect a bunch of examples of different people that did manage to finish in time. It's not acceptable for Sirlin's official tourney rules that he's sending out to Game Salute booths or whatever to appear to not be functioning.

    (And it especially doesn't matter if you're going to collect data from online, which it sounds look you are. Nobody's talking about online play, that's entirely different, and I think you're right that noone complains online is too slow.)
     
  4. Aphotix

    Aphotix Super Moderator Staff Member

    It simply is a wrong idea to allow everyone to see the hands. Cheating is real, and legitimate competitions need to do just about everything possible to limit the possibility of cheating. If you add a delay, then you are no longer watching the game live, and, to a lot of people, that takes 90% of the fun out of spectating (not me personally fwiw).
     
  5. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    Ok the RL tournaments were all new people mostly. It is not suprising these games would be slow. People might have had to read the cards and stuff. In all games new people take too long. Also in my exoerience very new people do not really understand how to get good damage. Basing the rules on getting complete newbies to finish on time is unwise imo.

    Nobody watched poker until they could see the hole cards. Solving this issue is much more important imo then fixing block/block. Also seeing hands makes it possible to give real commentary instead of what is essentially play by play + flavor (often good flavor).
     
    Coffee and PePeQu like this.
  6. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    Also me+Wobberjockey are Playing Val/Midori tomorrow. I think time is 7pm ET. Right before FD tournament. If anyone wants to see new rules in action come on by!. (I am suggesting bo7 but idk if Wobber is cool with that).
     
  7. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    ^^I still disagree, for any number of reasons. (1. what I remember from talking to them is that they actually weren't new, you're making random assumptions. 2. basing the rules on letting new players finish *if mostly new players are showing up to tournies* is not unwise at all). But at least you're on the right page now. I would say go argue with Sirlin about the specifics... but he probably doesn't care.
     
  8. perinigricon

    perinigricon Member

    A 5 minute delay like they do in LoL/Starcraft streams would work really well... it's still close enough to "live", but you get to see what they played and Aphotix has more interesting of a job. The only issue would be having friends tell what was in their opponents' hands (I think that's what you mean by cheating).
     
  9. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    Also one more suggestion to make casting exciting (especially to let people see what is going on to make block/block more interesting) would be to have both hands visible to apho. Yomi cast somehow did this. The way they did it seemed great. One hand was normal view and the other hand was slightly smaller in a bar on the top. I think they edited this in later. If this sort of thing was implemented I think Yomi would be vastly nicer to watch. Especially it would make the "footsie" period alot more interesting and exciting.

    There is alot of tension in yomi that is just not visible at all if at least one hand is not on. I would be super hype to watch yomi with casting + both hands visible. That to me would be really great and exciting. Regardless of rule changes somebody should make this a reality.
     
    Coffee and Lofobal like this.
  10. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    It's really troubling to see you think like that deluks. They did know how to play, they were not like reading cards for the first time. It is a fact that many matches had to be stopped before finishing after 50 mins. You have to accept that fact and not argue against it like it's not real. The game would be better if it were a bit faster, period. We can move on from that because there's nothing more to say about that particular point other than "yeah it would be better if it were a bit faster."

    Also you said that showing hands would make for better spectating. YES! It absolutely would, we totally agree on that point. But that is neither here nor there when it comes to making a system that encourages more interaction.

    I guess I'm confused if you're interested in helping or what. Because if you were, you wouldn't be claiming shortening the matches a bit is bad, and you wouldn't be saying more interaction (via attack/attack happening more, and less block block) is bad. You'd be figuring out how to make that work.
     
  11. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    I am not opposed to making things more interactive. I am even trying to be positive. I just think this change is not the optimal change to make. I really do no think that this change can be made without changing the actual cards. And if we are going to change the cards then I think there are better ideas. I have played 16 playtest games in 2 days. I am playing more tomorrow. I understand we have differing views on how much this change screws over different characters. This is why I am trying to get as much data as I possibly can without playing badly.

    Also my personal view is that block/block is somewhat interactive since there the dynamic that one character almost always wants block/block more then the other guy. There are many ways to make yomi better and making normals more useful would be great. I just do not think this is the way to do it for the aforementioned reasons.
     
    PePeQu likes this.
  12. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Well we tried a lot of ways and this one is the best known way. You have yet to name any I think are better though you did name some that were worse and already tried/rejected I think. I don't really see what's wrong with it anyway, so naming different versions doesn't help much. I mean you think Rook is weak or something, whatever. But overall the dynamics seem to be just what is expected.
     
  13. Daemondym

    Daemondym Member

    So I'm just going to toss this out there.

    I'm not anyone big named, I've been playing less than 6 months. I don't have data, or a strong position to bring to this debate.

    I don't want the game changed.
    I bought into this game with the current rules. I like the way it plays. I've played 20 card hand geiger. And I've also played topdeck yomi Geiger. I think optimal play lies somewhere between.

    And I think that the game plays just fine the way it is now.
    This is a subjective argument, and it doesn't matter much.

    The things Sirlin doesn't like about Current Yomi (Time it takes to play, hand size, card draws, etc) are subjective too. Sirlin doesn't like the speed of the games, the way they play for observers, etc, thus, he wants to change things. And that's a valid perspective.

    But, there are a lot of us who feel that the game is good right now. By simply disregarding these opinions, there is a distinct feeling of screw the fanbase, for theoretical future fans.

    I think the game is plenty strategically deep. I think that turtle play is not optimal, see Mad King Arg, who is much harder for me to beat with Geiger (or Anyone) than Turtle Arg, who's actually pretty easy for me to beat with Geiger. I think all these things based on several months of play with bad and good players, and not at all scientific analysis.

    Blocking is Too Good:
    This is a subjective statement, so let me give some opinions. I think it is often the best option in a void, but, I'm hardly ever playing in a void. Either I'm playing someone I've played against before, or I'm playing against a character that I know the general card breakdown of. You know I hardly ever block against Midori with Geiger? Geiger, who is the King of Hand Building Exercises, I will play rushdown with, rather than let Mid build a hand and crush me in the late game. Blocking is only good as long as your opponent is letting you get away with blocking. If you're playing block a lot, it's because your opponent is not punishing you. Why they're not punishing you is a valid question. Is throw too weak? I think personally it's under rated. I like playing aggro attacks, pushing players into blocking, then throwing a lot to rack up KDs and go right back to attacking, if I have a character that will let me do so. Setsuki is good for this. So is Jaina. Other characters require a little more skill in the hand management portion of this strategy.

    Attacking is Not Good Enough
    True for some characters, not true for others, Normals are fluff, crap, and disposable, and they seem to have been designed that way. I've poked with 6 and 7 before as Geiger, just because I read throw. Frankly, the speed of face cards will almost always make them preferable, but playing high number normals against KD opponents to mixup for high damage is fun and optimal, and works against Throws and blocks if you read it right.

    Games are Too Slow:
    Not sure about this one. A single Bo1 goes pretty fast in my house, where we play with the physical yomi set. Maybe this is slower in tourney settings, not really sure, but I often play a Bo3 in under 45 minutes, making it a fun 'fast game' for me and my housemates.

    Games aren't fun to watch:
    As someone who spends a lot of time watching games, I don't find this true at all. Even without hands, I like watching people play, trying to figure out what they're thinking, and what's going on in their hands and heads.

    Blocking is the only way to gain cards.
    This is true. And may be a problem. If this is the problem we want to resolve, then maybe we should draw more cards with some other method. I'm not sure I like the attack=draw rule, but I'm not sure I hate it either. But, it does seem to encourage blocking as much as it does attacking. I haven't played with it, so I don't really know how it would change the reading on the game.

    All this is Useless, because Sirlin is not going to listen to you.
    This is probably true. Like I say. I'm nobody. My opinion doesn't matter, clearly. I'm just a paying customer, who's already playing the game.
     
    PePeQu likes this.
  14. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    Ok I guess all I can say is I am fairly sure that this rule change with no major tweaks to the characters will eventually be rejected. In my view the faster this happens the quicker expo testing can be serious (testing without the major rules set up is not ideal). You are right that me arguing anymore is likely unhelpful. I will just quietly post my testing results. If anyone things my results are completely off base they should contact me and I will retest with them. I am on alot.
     
    PePeQu likes this.
  15. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    It's not screwing over the people who like the idea. In fact, doing nothing would screw them over when they prefer normals to be better.
     
  16. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    That's not really coherent, and is why I try to avoid analogies in these sorts of things. I apologize for not doing so. Regardless, garcia showed long ago that what you're saying is simply not true.
     
  17. Atma

    Atma Active Member

    Sirlin: is there a short list of other ideas that were tried and found wanting? Might help brainstorming and prevent retreading the same ground.
     
  18. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Draw when every normal in a combo hits. Draw only if normal is blocked or hits. Draw from knockown. Draw from every hit of a straight except the first hit. Same as that but min 3 hits. Probably more, I don't know.
     
  19. Morn

    Morn Well-Known Member

    A random playtest game was done between deluks (Geiger) and me (Jaina) using the normals draw rule. When I varied my play, I lost pretty badly, but attacking every single turn, with UP backup and mixing up between normals and queen, won me the game. I only had 7 HP left, yes, but winning with 7 gives me the same win that winning with 85 HP does. I will continue to test, and this may be an anomaly, but that's another game that showed Jaina to be potentially too good with normal draws.

    The problem with that is that it does screw over the people who don't like the idea. Obviously, those people are not ones you want to hear, and, normally, I'd say that's fine, but the people who don't like the idea are the ones who are paying money, playing the game, etc.

    The ones who do like the idea are people we rarely if ever see in the Yomi queue showing us why it's so good. Lofobal has been good enough to join us recently, but where's garcia? Where's Aphotix? Where's Sirlin, even? I'd like to believe that these changes have real merit, but my experience does not bear that out. I am not close-minded, and I'm willing and actually want to be wrong. So I invite all of you to come show us why the game is better.
     
  20. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    Hey guys,

    I think maybe people are mad because it feels like "oh we are playtesting this, and it sucks!!!! why don't you listen to us"

    I can't speak for anyone else but for me personal this is useful feedback. However we can refine this process a bit.

    For example maybe now it is "Jaina is broken, 100% attack always wins!" (This claim is just for the sake of argument, it seems incorrect to me.) The next step is not "these rules suck, discard them" but rather "do these rules achieve their intended purpose? If they do, what changes would we need to make Jaina non-broken? If they don't, why not?"

    I think if you are playing with the expectation that "no other changes needed, binary approve/disapprove" then that would not be so helpful.
     
  21. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Morn, that is not a good line of reasoning. This is like an age-old thing to claim that some change "screw over" people or that someone making changes "don't listen" to people. Here is a specific example: if I don't change anything, then I have not listened to Aphotix and I have screwed over Aphotix. I have also not listened to Lofobal and screwed over Lofobal. Etc, etc. That is why the entire concept of saying screwing over is not a productive type of posting. It's just rhetoric that glosses over other preferences that do really exist.

    My point actually has nothing to do with the normal draw rule. It's that is a terrible way of putting it and you should not do that. Understand that someone is "screwed over" no matter what happens or doesn't. The only thing I can do is make what I think is the best game.
     
  22. Morn

    Morn Well-Known Member

    Thank you much for your reasonable response, Sirlin. I apologize for my attitude, in all sincerity, but I hope you understand how frustrating it is to be down in the trenches, see issues with a mechanic, and be given the impression that the mechanic is going to go ahead and our issues have no validity. It's a false impression, I'm sure, but it's one that the attitudes of some people on both "sides" of the debate have cultivated. I feel, and I'm sure you'll agree, that there should not be sides. There should be one community, coming together to make the best possible game.

    I appreciate the difficulty your position gives you and I really do want to see the best possible Yomi. I want you to know that all my backbiting, all the frustration, has been there because it feels like the direction Yomi is going now is not the best possible Yomi. There is a widely held perspective, one I'm sure is wrong, that you're making a game that's going to please a few people at the expense of many others. Please understand that my request to have you come in and show us the benefits was not meant as an insult or anyting disparaging; I really do want to see the benefits of the changes from the people most excited about it.

    This is an exciting time for Yomi, and every community should be so lucky as to have a game designer who communicates with his fanbase so regularly, or even at all. Know that I do not take that for granted, and I appreciate that you take the time to speak with us at all, however frustrating it has to be for you.
     
  23. Aphotix

    Aphotix Super Moderator Staff Member


    One thing I specifically need answered is how this perspective came to be. I feel like there is a total disconnect between Sirlin's goals for Yomi, and what you guys think his goals are. We want to improve Yomi, not just change it. If the changes ended up being worse off, they would be discarded. There was a version of Yomi known as "RDY", and it has since been scrapped. This is because, ultimately, after rigorous testing and positive discussion, we determined that the cons outweighed the pros. Everyone here has to understand that there will be no changes to Yomi if the game really does end up worse. However, I do honestly believe that people are testing these changes with the wrong attitude and perspective. You have to look at what could be awesome first, and how to address problems second.
     
    Lofobal likes this.
  24. Morn

    Morn Well-Known Member

    Honestly, Aphotix, I can't really tell you where the perspective came from. I think it's just one of those stupid things that happens where some people misinterpret things said by other people and it cascades from there until it ends up being a Three's Company episode, except things aren't all better at the end.

    As for the point about playtesting attitude, I'm going to start off with a joke statement: it would be awesome if the problems were addressed! Having gotten that out of my system, there tends to be a thing with people where they only mention the things that stand out as problems, and, if they don't mention it, they like it. I'll admit that I have this problem too sometimes, and that may color how I present things. So let me say this, unequivocably: I am not your enemy, and I never have been.

    If you want normal draw to be the rule of the day, I think that's great, because having more ways to cycle cards in hand and move through options is more interesting than not. If you want hand cap, that's perfectly okay. 10 cards is really all any character needs at the end of the day, so that's a change I can get behind too. However, the current Yomi cast, which was designed around those things not being there, is simply not prepared to handle this change without things being thrown too far off. This indicates that the entire cast would need to be redesigned and rebalanced to accomodate these changes, but that would bring up the RDY problem all over again. I am not saying that I don't think you should do it; rather I think rebalancing deserves another chance, now that we've seen how the changes affect an unaltered cast.

    Is there a point to all this rambling? Probably not, but I hope it provided some perspective.
     
  25. Kawaiiness

    Kawaiiness Active Member

    I partially agree aphotix (that the changes aren't being tested with an open mind), but my main issue with the changes is I don't feel that blocking is particularly strong as an option to begin with (and granted I don't get all the feedback and testing that sirlin and team do, so I cannot/will not speak for anyone but my personal play experience in yomi), but I play a character whom blocking is supposedly very strong on and almost required and do very little of it because of experience.

    As a player personally what I feel is that blocking is decent and something you should do less as you understand the game more/become a stronger player and realize when and how to use it effectively rather then the "auto go to". I feel that "blocking is too good" is not a design flaw, but instead a metagame that has evolved that focuses specifically on blocking and that the game should continue to evolve to higher levels of play (which I feel is 25% block rate or less per game because it's simply not optimal when you could be taking advantage of your combat wins with more than extra cards).

    MU wise, I stand by what I said and I do feel that draw on normal hurts rook/midori very badly. That said, I think it a good choice for the rest of the chars, as even as a val player I normal less often than I block (mb 5 times?) in a game, and then only to land my string for AA and move on with the game or to hit confirm a combo, and that from the character with arguably the strongest normal game in the game.

    My only issue with it is it seems to make throw a weak option. (As part of the reason I use it so much is to deny my opponent their options like bonus cards, force them to poke me out with attacks they don't want to that hurt them overall like norms, and lastly for the fact that it deals damage when your opponent is blocking). But I don't see how throw doesn't clearly come off as the worst option overall (especially early game when it doesn't hand build) with minimal advantages when every normal has vals orb ability tacked on. I would rather just block more because you're more likely to attack and less likely to throw with buffed normals and throws lagging behind.
     
  26. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Waterd, vivafringe, and garcia would like to comment on this idea that playing well means not blocking much. Blocking is super strong and more cards make you stronger. Their guides all emphasize that you must block a lot, and that early combat damage is often worse than blocking. They say you block MORE, not less, as you understand the game more. So your idea of optimal play is the opposite of theirs. And early Yomi play involved not much blocking, while it's become more and more dominant over time.

    Throws are weaker with the normal draw rule in effect, sure. (More likely for the opponent to attack.)
     
  27. Kawaiiness

    Kawaiiness Active Member

    Ah, yeah I still have a lot of growing to do as a player, thanks for the insights, but if throws are weaker, doesn't that mean that blocking does become stronger, which isn't that against the overall goal (I'm not attacking in any way simply trying to get the goals of the discussed changes to better understand).

    Would simply returning the throw if you throw a block be enough to make throw spammable enough to hurt the idea of blocking early or no?
     
  28. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    These guys except Garcia have not played in awhile. Friiik says opposite and is imo best current guy. Idk what Choke thinks exactly but it not block too good. Almost all the curent people liked friiik's post. Why are the new people coming to such a different conclusion.
     
  29. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    Yeah, but since blocking becomes stronger, then throws become stronger too.
     
  30. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    They are still expert players and still all very much emphasize how important blocking is.

    Throwing being weaker does NOT in itself, imply that blocking is stronger. Without normal draw rule, blocking is super strong because it's the only way to build a hand. With normal draw rule, there are several different forces at play, but the net effect is blocking is weaker. Mostly because there is now a second possible way to build a hand, so sometimes you can use that other way, and don't need to use block quite as much. There has to be extra power somewhere though, it's not in blocks: it's in normal attacks.
     
  31. Kawaiiness

    Kawaiiness Active Member

    How exactly does that make throws stronger. If I throw you early (with val) I gain 6 damage and a knockdown that I probably can't use effectively at risk of normal string into possible aces with card draw or dragon punch to poke out the throw/normal card that's more prevalent. If I block, however, at worst I get throw for mediocre damage, at best I get card advantage and get hand information of your normals/pokes, and if we block/block I go slightly better than even in most MU.

    Where as nowadays I feel that throwing is generally an optimal play first turn with val (against non grapplers) because it's punishments are negligible, it's a higher priority that my opponent will block/throw, and it's going to probably be a less useful card later in the game (assuming I have 2 throws in starting hand).

    As an aside, I can only speak for val. I look at the world through val colored lenses and I honestly don't even remotely understand the game from any other perspective. So very probably my opinions are less than valid in relations to any other character at all.
     
  32. Morn

    Morn Well-Known Member

    Block is still safer than attack, though, because it only loses to throw, there are relatively few throws in decks compared to attacks, and because you get to keep the blocking card. Yes, normal attack now replaces itself for hand building, but you lose the attack and the attack itself loses to more things. As a result of all of these, players might still be more likely to block during that feeling out process where you don't have a read on your opponent yet. I've considered making the player lose the blocking card as a possible solution, but if you've tried that and it didn't work, that's all good.
     
  33. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    From everything I know, blocks are weaker in the world of normal draw. Considering how mega powerful they were, that's fine. Throws are harder to land in a world where people attack more, so throws are weaker. Not like throws are useless or something, because block is still a real option. Garcia was just joking or something above, btw, ignore that I think.
     
  34. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    oh what I meant is that e.g. blocking is stronger, therefore throwing is stronger, therefore attacking is stronger, therefore blocking is stronger, therefore attacking is weaker, therefore throwing is stronger, etc. etc. That's sort of not productive reasoning. Each attack/block/throw has its own payoff. Changing one payoff doesn't make other payoffs change, but it affects the frequency of playing them.
     
    friiik likes this.
  35. Morn

    Morn Well-Known Member

    I wish to apologize for misunderstanding the purpose of this particular phase of testing. As someone who has been trained and educated as a writer/proofreader, it has become second nature to look for the little fiddly issues that separate good ideas from great ones. Unfortunately, that makes me completely useless now, because this is the phase where we say good/great ideas, and that's not my department. I know there are people who are great at it, though, and I'll leave it to them to come up with those ideas, and save finding trouble and shooting it for when it's wanted.
     
  36. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    OMFG... by my clock it's been 26 hours between the introduction of the rule and this post. How do you manage, in approximately 1 day, to both come to the ultimate conclusion that the mechanic has unresolvable issues and that that those issues won't be responded too, and that the mechanic is permanently in place???

    Seriously???
     
  37. Scarbo

    Scarbo Well-Known Member

    Good stuff about normal draw:
    • It makes the game more fun. More cards, more options, more fun.
    • It makes hand management easier. Hand management is a skill that is great to have in Yomi. But I think it is too strict in current Yomi for high level play (so strict that some players will advocate avoiding damage in favor of more cards), and it makes the game harder to learn/less intuitive for new players. Normal draws make hand management easier without marginalizing it the way old RDY did.
      • Lessens the learning curve. Hand management is a big thing that separates bad players from ok ones. Making that easier makes the game easier to learn.
      • Refocuses the game on winning combat/damage/yomi instead of what cards you have.
    • Makes rushdown viable in a way that it really isn't in current Yomi. Even aggressive characters need to block for a while in current Yomi.
    • Less variance. More draws means you see more of your deck, which increases the chance of getting better cards.
    Bad stuff about normal draw:
    • Has some lame abusive things, and I think that anything short of a comprehensive rebalance results in a much worse game.
    • Beating bad players is probably harder since playing random cards is improved. Not sure if that's actually bad, but worth mentioning.
     
    dzebra, PePeQu, Inkstud and 4 others like this.
  38. Morn

    Morn Well-Known Member

    It's entirely because of a misunderstanding of purpose, and a sense of frustration that led to some wrong conclusions. Now that the misunderstanding is corrected, I don't feel the same way anymore.
     
  39. pkt-zer0

    pkt-zer0 Well-Known Member

    Warning: uninformed opinion of a low-skill casual player incoming.
    The normal draw rule seems cool. One of my gripes with the original game is that if you draw a shitty initial hand, you have to spend ages working your way towards a usable one. Speeding up the rate at which you cycle cards means you'll gravitate faster towards a usable hand, regardless of the starting conditions. This reduces variance, so there's less of a need to play Bo5s or whatever.
    Haven't played with these rules yet, so the above is merely theoretical at the moment, but I do intend to give them a shot ASAP.
     
    JinSaotome likes this.
  40. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    I would honestly like to hear what Sirlin's stance on a comprehensive rebalance is? My general impression is "no", if at all possible? Due to the stuff he said earlier about the masses rebelling against having to buy new components.

    But maybe there's ways around that limitation. Like maybe only changing character abilities is possible, and then just ship 10 replacement character cards (or if lucky, even less because only a few characters actually need a change) with the expansion and bill it as an improvement? People seem generally receptive to things like that in a way that they wouldn't be to an actual reprint of the base set?
     
  41. Matt_S

    Matt_S Active Member

    Not having much Yomi experience, I don't have a well-informed how normal drawing would affect the current balance. But I like the idea. I often end up with a small hand (through my own fault by overusing combos, yes, but I'm just stating my experiences here), and it also seems to me that normals are lacking in usefulness. Usually I only use normals when I don't want to risk my face cards and aces on the combat reveal or when I simply don't have anything better.

    A hand-size limit wouldn't affect me much with the way I currently play because I usually don't turtle enough to get a large hand, so I'm neutral on that.

    Edit: I'd love to playtest with this change if I wasn't so spoiled by the rules-enforced mode =/
     
  42. friiik

    friiik Active Member

    What is with this reply? That wasn't even the main content of my post. I made a point because you said "Not at all", which is wrong. Please write useful responses next time.

    Yes, if block has better expected value than any other option games will be a lot slower than it could potentially be and the payoffs need to be adjusted. I stand by my opinion that this is wrong though. I think the current balance is actually very good. The EV changes to block's favor when you have a really small hand and decreases when you got a middle-sized or huge sized hand. A well-informed opponent knows about these values and yomi is applied.

    I would like to point out about block/block that I don't find this situation all that common - not any more common than any other combat outcome. Like, in a game maybe the average block/block out of lets say 25 combats would be...maybe 4-5. That's 20-25% of the time, it doesn't seem too bad to me. I used to block a ton when I was an intermediate player, but I realized it wasn't very useful to have 25 cards when you are Midori and stopped playing those kind of games. (though it was fun!)


    I would really like to know what garcia showed long ago which I have no idea about. Maybe he could share himself?

    I have to say, my idea of optimal play diverts also from the opinion of these players. Block is strong for the fact it builds up your hand unless you get thrown. Throw is strong because it keeps your opponent from blocking. Attacking is strong because you beat those throws. Attack and throw are also strong because they deal damage.
    Let's look at the damage of a normal super. We'll take Grave Q. 10 good damage with 0.0 speed, a nice move. A Grave throw is 7 damage and can be followed-up. Throw deals 70% damage of Grave's super - that seems pretty good. On top of that Grave has a lot more throws than Q - interesting! Now, they aren't as fast, but if they hit...yum-yum!
    Also, I will say that Blinky is a strong player, and he thinks throw is the strongest option in the game. I have said that I can't say, and have no interest in putting it that way (seems so close, hard to tell, so it's meaningless). Something worth noting (which I hinted at my first long post) is that if blocking is too strong it means throwing is too weak. And I have a hard time seeing that is true.

    I agree with Kawaiiness that it seems it's a specific strategy which has evolved into a percieved "best play" and that that's that. While it can be hard to deal with turtling for some, it is not really bad (I mean, bringing down a turtle can be a troublesome business in any game and that's kind of the purpose of a turtle is it not? Frustrate your opponent into making mistakes) Just to clarify, I'm using this "turtle" distinction for saying "block a lot".​
     
    Coffee and PePeQu like this.
  43. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

  44. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    You claimed it was personal and not the game's fault. I posted some objective reasons for it being suboptimal and how yeah it really is the engine's fault, and you went with no those don't matter, it's inarguable. Given that this thread is for discussion and implicitly debate, I honestly consider that response pretty rude. I come here willing to change my mind and exchange ideas, and inarguable positions are the antithesis of that. If you want to discuss in that way, I politely ask you to find some other thread to do so.
    I have some incredibly snide things to say here but I will keep them to myself. Perhaps you will do the same next time.

    If I don't entirely respond to your posts, it's because I don't feel the necessity to. Given how long they are, this seems entirely reasonable to me. I don't see any utility in having any more discussion with you or responding to your posts, so I'll cut it here and go to bed instead.
     
  45. major_shiznick

    major_shiznick Well-Known Member

    Most of the playtesting I've observed others doing/posting with the original 10 have been matchups that are obviously tipped with the experimental rules. Okay, so you're kind of demonstrating (tiny sample size) the consequences that are apparent from not even playing. Fantastic. When I played some of the less volatile matchups (Gary/Grave, Geiger/Grave) things turned out great (also small sample size, mind you). Smoother play on both sides. Less variance. General fun. Fewer block/block combats than normal.

    Yomi plays well as it is, but it's a conceptually ridiculous game when you can get away (up to a surprisingly high level of play) with tossing out block after block and just flinging big supers and DPs at each other. Playing like that is certainly exciting once you get to the meat of it, but the early game for mid-level players is hella boring. It shouldn't take lots of playing experience to appreciate the subtleties of the opening combats, and I think cantrip leading normals does a lot to fix that.

    I don't think I'll post much more until I've played a considerable number of games, and I would encourage others to do so as well, regardless of your stance. In these first few days, though, my general opinion is that cantrip normals aren't necessary, but they're fun and don't hurt the core of the game... grappler tweaks notwithstanding.

    If the question is handcapping... well, I'm less sold on that one, but I can definitely see it as a viable solution to uncontrolled easy card flow. 10 seems too restrictive at first thought (not tested it myself), but all my knowledge of the game seems to think 12 would feel better.
     
    Lofobal and garcia1000 like this.
  46. Scarbo

    Scarbo Well-Known Member

    I heard people like hand management. So maybe they would prefer a 10 hand cap since it forces more hand management. 12 cards feels like it is the minimum hand cap for Lum to function about the same he does now with current throws and Poker Flourish though.
     
  47. Razmath

    Razmath Member

    I like the idea of drawing cards on normals for two main reasons:
    • Making normals more useful is a good thing, plenty of characters seems to use their low normals mainly for powerups and nothing else.
    • Giving players another option to cycle through the deck makes blocking more of a choice and less of a necessity. Players who want to do damage will generally have the choice to attack or throw, and that decision is based on what they think the opponent will do and what's in their hand. By contrast, in the current version of the game players who want to improve their hand need to block.
    Experimenting with the exact rules through playtesting is obviously necessary, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it change through development, but the advantages to the rule certainly make it worth trying out. I'll try to be around for some playtesting starting next week, I'd like to see how the rule works in practise.
     
  48. friiik

    friiik Active Member

    It seems to me we both think the other guy is rude and ourselves are honest and polite. Our interpretation of being polite seem to differ a lot too. But it's good that you say you are open-minded because you certainly don't seem that way in your posts (while I think I certainly do).
    You say you posted some "objective reasons". The only reason I can see is that you say "attack/attack, throw/throw is more varianced (different cards are used) and that is more fun" (note: made up quote from content), which I correctly point out doesn't invalidate my point; it is personal (which you seemed to do by saying "Not at all"). Maybe what you say is for most people true, but I reacted to your "it is not so" statement about my post by being objective about its subjectiveness. Not a very important point, but I made it. Then you decided to reply yet again about that.

    I don't consider that snide at all, I honestly believe that it was a worthless response so I said so. I felt you were rude to reply such a petty detail which didn't hold much value when the rest of the post had much more interesting points to talk about.

    But to be objective I actually gave something substantial to talk about while you didn't (in your replies to me). That you didn't feel like replying to anything else in my post is of course your choice so I don't mind.
    To be short I think I contributed with my replies while you didn't.

    I completely agree with you here, I have no interest in talking about useless stuff like this.

    You made some other posts (not replies to me) which I found had some value and worth replying to. If you post more of those I'll continue replying in the same fashion.
    As of now though, I think you're an asshole.
    Cheers.
     
    x00x likes this.
  49. Inkstud

    Inkstud Well-Known Member

    Yeah everyone on BGG is gonna fucking freak if they hear there's a new $100 version of Yomi that you have to get for it to be compatible with the (also $100) expansion. Frankly while I'll be more understanding of it that's not really in my budget either, so hopefully there's some inexpensive "upgrade pack" option with the 52 updated cards (or whatever it ends up being) to replace ones in your old decks. Maybe with new art or something which would be awesome, maybe not if it's too expensive to produce. Maybe new playmats. Some cool little easter egg like that.
     
  50. Daemondym

    Daemondym Member

    So what you're saying is that bad matches getting worse are not important to test, and that fair matches getting better are?

    I'm kinda confused by the purpose of playtesting, apparently, but, in general, scientific studies start with a hypothesis. I think normal draws will make Jaina Broken, for instance. I don't think this is necessarily true, but it's a valid hypothesis, because hypothesis time is 'Crazy Theory Time'.

    Then you play games to test this theory. How does normal draw feel against Grave? Arg? Sets? Midori? These are traditional benchmarks for me for Jaina. Her even matches aren't what I'm worried about. It's her good (midori) and bad (Arg/Grave/Sets) matchups that worry me. How does having extra cards affect her in a situation where she's already attacking a lot? How does having extra cards affect her against people who can counter her UP abuse?

    Then you draw conclusions.

    So far, I see a lot of opinions, and a lot of hypothesis, but not much systemic testing.

    So are we in Crazy Theory Time, or are we actually testing these rules?

    Let me go on to say some things I'm worried about for the future. Admittedly, I'm not a good player, and haven't found anyone willing to let me break Jaina over them, so I'm not sure how true they are, but these are Crazy Theory Time ideas.

    Jaina's primary strength lies in how little she needs to block already. She already doesn't need the card draw as much as most players, and can jump straight to attacking in the opening, because if she hits, she can trade a little life to gain back the cards, and come out net ahead. If she whiffs, she can sacrifice some cards or some health, and still feel OK. Using Jaina's fast face cards and powerful red normals to force a person into block/dodge and then throwing is, I think, optimal play for Jaina. I won't say never block, but I will say, block is less appealing for Jaina than it is for most of the characters, in my opinion. (I have jokingly said Jaina Shouldn't Block before, but let me be clear, there is no character who should never do option X)

    Jaina's Queen is a fearsome weapon, and using it repeatedly can hammer an opponent into defensive play, limiting the options of the enemy. But her real strength comes in hand management, where she already has an easier time for a skilled player, allowing you to sacrifice a little health to keep her hand size up.

    Normal Draws will make it even easier to keep the hand size high, allowing Jaina more options, and making her even stronger against people she's already strong against. The Midori matchup, in particular, is a rough ride for Mid already. Not unwinable, but painful. Making it more skewed in Jaina's favour seems like a bad balance change.

    Normal Draws vs Setsuki seem.. interesting. One of the painful things about the Sets matchup is that her Smoke Bomb can counter Burning Vigor, giving her free hand resets, and screwing you out of precious precious queens. Her strength against UP does eliminate some of the broken shenanigans where you lead with a 4 for draw, and flip to dodge for a strong hitback. But I don't know how this match will really fall out without finding someone to break Jaina over.

    Normal Draws vs Arg: Arg seems to gain an advantage in an already advantageous matchup here, because of the speed of his normal pokes, and the damage he can do with them. His ability to counter UP and toss bubble shield when reading strong attacks mean that Jaina plays totally differently against Arg already. Having him gain even more cards with which to beat you seems painful, but I'm willing to play this MU to gather data.

    Normal Draws vs Grave: Not sure how this one shakes out. Grave/Jaina is one of the more complex matchups in the game, with a lot of Burning Vigor management required. Block is already good against Jaina for Grave, and I only see it getting better with this rule change, since it leads into the Winning option, the Queen. I'd like to play this MU to see how it fares.


    Other characters I'm worried about, and would like to see addressed, in depth:
    Are we still playing Setsuki Doesn't Draw off Normals? If not, how does Normal Draw affect Sets? Not much, I'd imagine, since it just gives her more pumpers, but it's worth looking at.

    Does this change help Midori or Rook at all? As grapplers, they already play very differently than most characters. I'd like to hear from strong Rook/Mid players, like Volc, for instance, and hear the matchups they'd like to see tested.


    Anyway, I hope this is more constructive than my previous opinion post.
     

Share This Page