To people on dev, stop saying gg if you won. It is very unsportsmanlike.

Discussion in 'General Chit-chat' started by Alhazard, Feb 3, 2011.

  1. Alhazard

    Alhazard Active Member

    To people on dev, stop saying gg first if you won. It is very unsportsmanlike.

    Although I did not want to go through the hassle of making what is a very obvious point to me, I encountered enough of this situation that leads me to believe that other people find this concept foreign.

    Stop saying gg EDIT: first if you won; it is very pretentious and unsportsmanlike!

    I want to discuss the history of the gg to show how this view came about over 15+ years of RTS play. It is not used as an icebreaker after winning contrary to some opinions. The history goes way back to days of Warcraft 2 LAN play (on Kali) and the need to shorten the game because in that game, the loser is eliminated when he loses all his buildings AND units. Instead of playing out the contest when the victor reached an overwhelming position, the community decided it was polite and sportsmanlike to just say gg as acknowledgment of the victor and resigning. This was in contrast to a possible bad manner (BM) play where you can possibly hide all your units and buildings and forcing the opponent to find them all. So in the 15+ years of the RTS genre, the tradition is that the loser decides when he lost and says gg as a show of sportsmanship, then loser acknowledging the achievement of the victor.

    This teamliquid poll also shows that in the SC/SC2 community, saying gg is frowned upon because of the reasons I explained.
    http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=161393

    When I see someone type gg, after they won, it just makes me mad coming from a RTS background. I immensely dislike playing against new people on dev because of this. I do hope that other RTS players back me on this, and I would like to listen to other civil players as to why they think it is appropriate to say gg when they won.
  2. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

    Good post, agree
  3. Amp

    Amp Member

    Let's be clear here.

    Do you mean trying to be the FIRST person to type "gg" when you've won? If so I agree.

    You make it sound like typing gg AT ALL when I'm the winner is unsportsmanlike. Which I disagree with. Because if I win, and see my opponent type gg, I don't see how it's unsportsmanlike at all to respond in kind, especially since gg is supposed to be an acronym for "good game".
  4. Kristoph

    Kristoph Active Member

    Didn't "good game" probably start with like, competitive sports and stuff? Like in tennis, is it considered "BM" to extend your hand first after you win or something?
  5. Swiffle

    Swiffle Active Member

    wtf is this

    that poll isn't even what you are pointing out. That poll is saying that people who gg before a match is actually over in a manner that's like "gg noob u lost now leave" is disrespectful, which it typically is. In the rare case that the other person can comeback and win, the BM player looks quite bad
    This doesn't happen on dev. It's just more a "game's over, good match /handshake gg"

    Edit: rts player btw
  6. Alhazard

    Alhazard Active Member

    Yes the winner typing gg first

    EDIT: I guess I need to edit my sig and post
  7. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    Actually, I find saying GG is unsportmanlike no matter what, I feel it forces me to say it back too, and I dont want to type.
  8. Amp

    Amp Member

    ...the hell is "dev" btw??
  9. Alhazard

    Alhazard Active Member

    The online pre-alpha yomi/PS client

    http://www.fantasystrike.com/dev/

    Kristoph: when I played competitive MTG, I felt irked when the winner offered hand first. Probably because of the same reasons. *shrug*
  10. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    I now type 'thx4gamecu' instead
  11. icewolf34

    icewolf34 Well-Known Member

    Yeah I was actually thinking about this. I never get offended if someone beats me at tennis or basketball and then says "good game", but I agree with Alhazard when it comes to video games. Not sure why, could be just because I always know the people that I play sports with.
  12. rozencrantz

    rozencrantz Active Member

    I was brought up to have exactly the same mannerism whether I won or lost. I think it's especially important with strangers, but I'll keep this convention in mind.

    While you're here, what's proper etiquette when the loser doesn't say anything? And are both parties allowed to say "another?" or only one? Which?
  13. Alhazard

    Alhazard Active Member

    In the RTS community it is considered very BM to not say gg if you lose. Just move on I guess.
  14. pictish

    pictish Member

    It must be my lack of RTS background, but this mystifies me.

    I can understand why saying gg after a total blow out might be insulting, or when you can tell it's some immature person who is (at best) barely holding out against saying 'gg, lol, fuckin' owned'.

    Usually though, in most communities I've played in, the winner or loser saying gg first was irrelevant. Either way it was just being polite. If the winner says gg, they're not being a sore winner and likewise with the other player not being a sore loser.

    So as someone who hasn't played RTS, what do I say to tell someone who lost I thought it was a good match (Other than thx4gamecu!)? I had no idea about the secret-insult inside gg.
  15. First, this isn't RTS.

    Second, when I say "gg" or "GG" or "Good game/s" - regardless of if I won or not, or if the other play has said it first or not, what I actually mean is...

    ... wait for it...

    Good game.

    I was gonna go on about how screwed up this all is, but I figure it would be better to offer a solution.

    Since this isn't RTS, in fact it's fairly new, let's use this opportunity to create a new etiquette. How about instead of waiting on someone to say gg or whatever, lets say it doesn't matter who says it first. I don't see why it should really. And let's also say that if you don't say gg or some form of acknowledgement for the game ("thanks for the game", "wow, you're good", "that was good, too bad you got unlucky in that part..."), then that's BM.

    Oh, I will agree that saying gg before the game is even over is bad. However, if it's just the cpu playing the match out (like a canned ultra finish), then that may be acceptable (you see players often shaking hands at that point anyway - though rarely incorrectly).
  16. SillySod

    SillySod Active Member

    RTS is a completely different context because the game disallows post-game chat. When people say "gg" in yomi the game is already finished.
  17. Trevor

    Trevor Member

    ^ This.

    I'm flabbergasted by this thread.
  18. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

  19. Cer

    Cer New Member

    Speaking for myself, whether I win or lose, I say gg. Sometimes I say it first, sometimes second, depending on how fast the other guy says it. And all I mean is "hey, that was a fun game, thanks for playing with me."

    That said, I won't say gg till the end of the game, when one character has 0 HP. Partly because in Yomi it isn't over till it's over, but also because it may be misconstrued as a taunt if I'm winning. Once someone's HP drops to 0, I allow myself to say gg.

    That said, I'm not 100% sure what to say when I completely crush a player. I feel pretty bad doing this to people playing casually on the server, to the extent that I try to give them a chance by blocking nonstop (it's the simplest way to not deal damage). This doesn't work out very well when I'm playing Argagarg though. So far I still say gg after the game. Not sure if it's appropriate. Maybe I should come up with something else.

    In any case, thanks for the games, everyone. They were fun.
  20. LoneKnight

    LoneKnight Well-Known Member

    I don't play Yomi on the dev server, but I'll say this. In Alteil, if someone rolls over me with something that's a bad matchup with the deck I'm currently using, and then types "gg", I'm a bit annoyed. Cause for me, that was a horrible game, and saying gg is like rubbing it in.

    But then, Yomi is a much better balanced game so I probably wouldn't have such problems. Unless I was perfected.
  21. Fry

    Fry Well-Known Member

    If someone is being an ass, yes it is unsportsmanlike. If it was a good game, saying "gg" is not unsportsmanlike. Just read it as an abbreviation of thx4gameCU
  22. Robyrt

    Robyrt New Member

    Saying "gg" is only unsportsmanlike if:
    1) The game is not really over
    2) It was not a good game
    It doesn't matter whether you are the winner or the loser, you should be polite to the other player, who spent just as much time as you so that you could both have a fun experience.

    Under #2, I would put totally non-interactive games. Got rolled in a big RTS FFA by 50 bombers because their neighbors never scouted? Not a compelling experience.
  23. Thelo

    Thelo Administrator Staff Member

    I agree with Robyrt.

    If you are getting angry because, after a good game, your opponent basically says "good game", I'm sorry, but the problem lies within you, not within your opponent or his manners.
  24. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Yeah I find it annoying to type it. I don't want to type things, I want to keep playing. This is particularly true of people who say gg after every single game. Saying "ggs" at the end of a set is plenty. To, you, WaterD, specifically, feel free not to type it to me ever, I don't care.

    I do consider saying "gg" at the end of a game that you won to be a bit pretentious. I'm not bothered by it as much as Alh, but I do agree with the sentiment. That said, I think most people don't mean it that way, so although I find it a bit annoying, I don't hold it against them.

    I don't consider handshakes after a match to be bad manners because those should happen after every match. To me they are a symbol that what's in the game stays in the game, so if the game was good we can appreciate it and if the game was bad we can move on without hard feelings.
  25. Fry

    Fry Well-Known Member

    Sorry I can't shake your hand on dev server, maybe Thelo will add that in the next update, until then I will type GG
  26. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    I don't say "gg" after winning for the same reasons, although it doesn't bother me so much except when it clearly wasn't a good game*. Like, don't "gg" me when you had two jokers in the first three turns, or when I kept a decent two-lander on the draw and still have 2 lands on turn 6.

    Poker players saying "nice hand" when they won makes me want to punch them in the throat, though.


    *One of my favorite exchanges after an mtg game: I lose after a series of atrocious draws and say "gg." My (skilled) opponent replies "no it wasn't"
  27. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    The fact that a separate community has used a very generic expression to mean one thing for years should not force us to abandon all other use of that combination of words. If I say good game after I win, it's usually because I felt challenged, or feel I learned something by playing that opponent - an opponent saying it to me I will tend to interpret the same way: basically telling me he didn't feel I was a complete pushover.

    Sirlingames is a growing community, it is still time to create our own standards, and I'd fully support a different saying to express the idea that a game was challenging, enjoyable, or otherwise felt like time well invested besides raising your ELO ranking. But there is no way I condone making angry eyes at newer players because they say "gg" instead.

    Would you feel different if the Fantasy Strike characters were replaced by the Guilty Gear franchise?
  28. Leartes

    Leartes Well-Known Member

    When I play go on the kgs server I usually say "thanks for the game" or short "thanks"/"thx" or something like that. I feel it is much more appropriete.

    If I was much stronger than my opponent, I usually ask him, if he wants me to do some analysis to explain his mistakes. If we are of equal strength and I crush my opponent or get crushed the game will usually end by resign with the loosing player writing "thx" the moment he resigns.
  29. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    Saying gg first as the winner is fine if the game is mechanically over.

    Saying gg first as the winner when the game is in (or possibly in) a lame duck state is really really insulting though.

    If you come from an RTS background the 2nd is what happens to you often and is quite annoying. It carries a level of pretentiousness and assumed superiority. Like YOU have to inform this LESSER player that it's over and they just don't know enough about the game to realize it yet. When the game is mechanically over there's no pretentiousness or anything about it though and it sounds more genuine (though there's still a bit of idea that maybe the winner is trying to rub it in)
  30. Wobberjacky

    Wobberjacky Well-Known Member

    100% this.

    The hell with "conventions", if you lack the basic social empathy to distinguish between someone saying "gg" to be dick and someone saying it to compliment your play, that's your problem and I feel sorry for you.

    That is all.

    EDIT: Okay I agree that saying "gg" when the game wasn't any good is kind of a dick move. When people got land-screwed in MtG I would usually say something to the effect of "that sucks dude" or wish them better luck in future games.
  31. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    fwiw I think this IS the issue when it comes to card games

  32. icewolf34

    icewolf34 Well-Known Member

    Happens a lot in 2v2 Starcraft that someone will offensive gg, and I really do have a hard time figuring out whether they're being a dick or are socially clueless. I find offensive gg way more annoying than "i fuked your mother lol"-type stuff.

    I also can't remember anyone doing offensive gg in MtG unless they were otherwise a douchebag as well. So I dunno, there is definitely historical context for Alhazard's position.
  33. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    I don't get the social empathy part. At a LAN for Starcraft after a game you may go over, shake the persons hand, and say GG. In that case it's unambiguous and you can read the person's intention regardless of who says what first. In fact I think at most tournaments the winner is the initiator of any post game ritual like that and it's fine. If someone doesn't really mean it in a nice way you can tell and get offended or whatever.

    Online THERE IS NO INTENT DETECTION. GG is the same as GG regardless of if I'm making fun of you, trying to get you to leave the game, or they actually mean it was a gg.
  34. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    This is nonsense. There are other things that you can type that don't have the same connotations.

    "gg" is not the same as a damn handshake, and it's not even the same as "good game". It's lazy and impersonal. If it was actually a good game and it's worth saying as much, put in 2 seconds to type the words out. Acronyms do not have the same meaning as their elongated forms. (see "lol" vs "laughing out loud" or "i'm laughing out loud here")
  35. Wobberjacky

    Wobberjacky Well-Known Member

    Disagree here. There's more ambiguity sure, but unless my only conversation AT ALL with opponent is "gg", I can usually tell if they're winning graciously or not.

    You know what though, as much as I COMPLETELY disagree with all this (and how sorry I feel for people with such thin skin that this actually an issue), I'm just going to wait for other guy to "gg" then reply with something appropriate to the situation, just because I don't feel like thinking about this nonsense for another nanosecond of my life.

    Yes, I am being dick here, but that's how I feel.

    EDIT: Okay I agree with Lofo that "gg" is maybe lazy and impersonal, and that is a way better reason not to use it than what OP is talking about.
  36. rozencrantz

    rozencrantz Active Member

    Regardless of how you do it, the winner absolutely should humble himself, and should not have to wait for an invitation to do so from the loser. GG is definitely lazy and impersonal, but this is the internet after all.

    Maybe Ip Man's classic "Thanks for letting me win." Does that work?
  37. sage

    sage Well-Known Member

    there exist "ggwp", "good game", "close one, whew", and even "gg, good game" which i have input by reflex before
  38. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    After all this discussion, I endorse "wp."
  39. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

  40. Ithaldir

    Ithaldir Member

    I usually ask "rematch?" if I lost and think I'd have a chance to win the next one. I'd assume it's up to the loser to decide if he wants to try again.

    I think this is an important distinction.

    I usually offer a bit of advice if I think my opponent had no clue or lacks basic knowledge. Or I say nothing if it was a matter of me playing Rock against my opponent's Scissors. Btw, I'm not sure "wp" applies in those cases.
  41. icewolf34

    icewolf34 Well-Known Member

    That case that you just dismissed is 90% of the games in communities like Starcraft or online MtG, though. In MtG maybe you get a few "nice draw" or "ouch" comments in between.

    Not sure what to say about the "thin-skinned" comment. I guess it is pretty thin-skinned to let this sort of thing bother you, but the whole point of etiquette is to cover the small things. Obviously in a small community of friends there's a lot less worry about miscommunication and these sorts of rules aren't as necessary.
    ---

    When I really crush a player, I usually don't want to just give unsolicited advice. If I want to talk, I'll usually try to find one part of their play to compliment and see if that segues into a bigger conversation about the game.
  42. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    If it wasn't well played and you crushed them, what made it a good game? Is there a reason to say "gg" there other than gloating?
  43. Ithaldir

    Ithaldir Member

    Good point.
  44. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Good post by icewolf.

    Yeah this. You don't need to say anything if it was a bad or forgettable game. Load up your deck and go to the next one.
  45. Wobberjacky

    Wobberjacky Well-Known Member

    I thought this too, but frankly there are going to be people offended by that too, especially if you thought they played well, but they do not agree (this happens often with new Yomi players in my experience).

    My experince with Yomi is there is usually a fair bit of communication. Your mileage may vary, I guess. On etiquette, you're right, but I just don't feel this is even worthy of that distinction. I also find it kind of incongruous that we have a pretty low amount of required etiquette when it comes to arguing and debates around here, and yet feel the need to promote nitpicky sportsmanship etiquette. In fact some of the least polite people here to have an argument with seem to be the most vocal about being sportsmanlike. :confused:

    For the record I don't mean to say I think thin-skinned people are bad people. I just honestly think you will be a happier person if you stop worrying so much about this kind of thing. I know I am.
  46. Lameador

    Lameador New Member

    Quoted and heavily edited

    I heard pro SC leagues had a rule where typing GG was considered a concession, regardless of game state. And comparing to real life sport, there is an historic grudge between french and roastbeef (aka England) rugby team about an english captain taunting France with a "good game" after a crushing english victory.

    Saying gg after a good/close match is IMHO OK and welcome, though of course things are subjective.
  47. mcw00ty

    mcw00ty Member

    To me, saying "gg" or any variation of it is the online equal to shaking someone's hand. In a game like MtG or fighting games, I always shake my opponents hand when we finish the match even if I utterly destroyed or got destroyed by them. I guess it's just what you do. So if I type "gg" when I win in Yomi first, I'm not trying to be an asshole, just "closing" out the match in my mind I guess.
  48. brainof7

    brainof7 Member

    If I am playing a match, I will usually offer the gg just before the final game if it is close. This is just because obv the winner is going to like what happened but the loser might not.


    In single game sets, I will usually wait for the loser to say gg, and if they don't and I think they played well I will offer it and compliment them on something that I struggled beating. It is more of a way to say "I enjoyed the game" then as a friendly courtesy to me at least
  49. Kanil

    Kanil New Member

    Offensive GGs are bad if neither player has yet won. Acceptable if you have. Ultimately pointless.

    If I haven't conversed with my opponent all game, then I feel no need to say GG, whether I lose or win, whether he GGs or not. If I have conversed with my opponent during the game, I'll probably say something a bit more personal than GG. So I almost never GG.

    That being said, I do enjoy watching players GG in StarCraft tournaments, and would GG if I was playing in a tournament. I'm not sure why I feel this way, but it seems part of the experience.
  50. I just realised something. The problem here is that losers need to learn to be better losers.

    Of course, if the winner is gloating then they need to learn to be better winners too.

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