True Power of Storms

Discussion in 'Yomi: Fighting Card Game' started by deluks917, May 25, 2012.

  1. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    My honest opinion is that the card really would be better off not existing. It is high variance, impossible to reliably stop, extremely strong and given to a character who would still be good without it. I feel like dealing with it really reduces my enjoyment of yomi. I am interested in how other people feel about it.
    x00x likes this.
  2. Aphotix

    Aphotix Super Moderator Staff Member

    TPoS thread, we meet again.
    Scarbo likes this.
  3. the-cap

    the-cap Active Member

    Probably best not to open this can of worms again. I think the move is fine. Without it or with a toned down version, Grave would be the least interesting character in the game. Sirlin's been pretty vocal about his opinions on the move like this one in the thread discussing possible balance fixes to Yomi. I feel like a tool for whipping out a Sirlin quote, but it is really relevant here.

  4. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    Dodge -> TPOS (if opponent is stupid not to bluff)
  5. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    ^I am not sure what you are implying.

    Regardless maybe it is best to just accept these things. It really did seem like recently there have been many people playing a super tpos based grave. I don't know why this is really.
    x00x likes this.
  6. Morn

    Morn Well-Known Member

    Answers to True Power of Storm:
    • Dodge
    • Block
    • Throw their dodge
    • 0.2 or 0.0 speed attack
    • Gold Burst
    • Rewind Time if they successfully dodge
    • Not playing scared
    You're welcome.
  7. Aesa

    Aesa Well-Known Member

    TPoS is like the 2nd most fun thing for me in this game besides anything involved with Lum. I've noticed some people hate getting hit by it but I always find it funny when it lands.

    Also Morn I think Gold Bursting against Grave is a leak. I'm going to just mixup hit confirm normal/dodge vs anyone who Gold Bursts and eventually land TPoS unless they guess right like 4 times in a row.
  8. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    The issue is less TPoS imo, and more TPoS on grave of all people. Again though, this has all been said before.
  9. Oni

    Oni Active Member

    I think it is fine as there's a lot to lose if it flops and a lot can make it flop. What interests me is a rise in playing it 'naked'. Maybe it relates to the influx of new players, a gamble trend or facedown hate when attack/dodge wins. If face down is a problem, players could fool the other out of jokers or use individual Aces through matches for guaranteed and still reasonable damage.
  10. brainof7

    brainof7 Member

    Yeah, I have played a couple people in QM where they just power-up at every opportunity, and then play the top card of their deck as their combat card for the turn. It makes valuation and pattern recognition worse. Then, they simply try to land TPoS since they blew their hand searching for it. Its not unbeatable, but it seems like a really easy QM strategy
  11. Morn

    Morn Well-Known Member

    I never said GB was a good thing to do on the overall. I just said it beats TPoS, which it does. Not to mention the five ace swing that happens when it works. I wouldn't do it, because there are other, less risky ways of handling the situation, but I wanted a somewhat comprehensive list.
  12. Ryker

    Ryker Active Member

    You're welcome!

    People say that there's a lot to lose, but I played CC in a Grave ditto yesterday and we threw TPoS 7 times between the two of us and I think the lowest card count that occurred was when I had 5 cards from throwing him early before the first one was laid on the table.

    Make it 4 Aces. Make it not combo. Hell, even making it 1.2 speed would be nice.




    As for the people complaining about boring, they can go take a long walk off a short pier. I find Lum the most boring character in the game, but that's not a viable reason to pursue changes. People don't like Guile and people don't like Morrigan, but I happen to enjoy watching both. Keep your opinions on how interesting the character is to yourself.
  13. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    ^yes tpos can be tried multiple times.

    Also morn the you have won a tournament where you made it to the finals playing mono-grave (in finals you used lum). I was watching many of your games and you used tpos alot. Clearly your opponents did not find tpos that easy to play around.
    x00x likes this.
  14. Morn

    Morn Well-Known Member

    You know, that's true. But my hypothesis is that people see the possible 45 damage coming and get all worried about it and thus make play mistakes. Hence why I said not to play scared. You can get thwacked in the face, yes, but not playing scared means you're thinking more clearly, which means you're probably guessing better, which means you're not as likely to take the 45 damage as if you were nervous and making play errors.
  15. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    ^that I think is true.
  16. Mad King

    Mad King Active Member

    TPoS is fine, honestly. I pretty much... never get hit by it playing Arg, so it's whatever.
    garcia1000 and cpat like this.
  17. Mililani

    Mililani Well-Known Member

    I'd argue that the fact that TPoS does this to people is actually worth more than the attack itself, which is the main reason I'd be hesitant to change it at all.
  18. The best option isn't there to use it. it's to scare opponents into having one option less.
  19. jelyman

    jelyman Active Member


    Ugh I didn't want to post in another tops thread but yeah.....I guess I couldn't help myself. As far as tops is concerned, I really don't even get why to comment on it at this point it doesn't need to be changed 4 aces...or whatever else wouldn't make it better. Grave could be tweaked, but it would be elsewhere.

    What really prompted me to post is the idea about boring stuff. I can't stand when someone says keep your opinion to yourself or says that someone stating some thing/character is boring is not a viable reason for change. Its a really good reason for change.....to say otherwise is just insane to me. Theroblem with ideas about change isn't the reasoning (boring, balance, etc...) it's explaining and verifying that reasoning. I mean if someone said tops is not balanced at all. Then you are prone to listen? Why? Unless there is something to validate that statement then it's pretty useless. Something being boring or creating boring gameplay is the same. It may be much harder to sift through the personal preferences, but that doesn't mean that you cant find reason for change based on the premise of its boring.

    My point is that telling someone to stop posting their opinion and what not is just creating more problems. We just need a higher quality of posts that not only make a claim ,but state a clear and viable reason that support said claim. No more blanket statement.....no more blanket statement.....no more....ok you get the idea. :)
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  20. Morn

    Morn Well-Known Member

    It's nice to see that people actually understand this principle. The same thing is true of Ghost Riposte, Bubble Shield, Time Spirals (to an extent), and so on. The power of these options, more than what they can do, is the threat value they have. People trying to avoid them is exactly why they win games for their users.

    Having said that, an empty threat is ultimately not a threat, so you do need to actually use them from time to time. Even if they fail, your willingness to do so is worth more, in the long run, than the damage that they would do.
  21. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    The problem is that Ghost Riposte, Bubble Shield, and TS are what those characters are BUILT around, and they have weaknesses to go with it.

    I'd honestly argue that you could REMOVE TPoS and still have a mid tier grave.
  22. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    ^this is my view as well. In fact I think grave - tpos is still really strong. Basically rook/lum becomes a problem but other than that he is fine in other mus.

    I am willing to test this btw. If anyone wants to I will play grave and never tpos. I think as long as you do not play rook/lum I will do fine. The same is clearly not true of arg sans BS.
  23. brainof7

    brainof7 Member

    You would still be really strong. Throw -> A is a good combo. He wouldn't be lacking in the damage department at least. Its just scary the possiblity of losing 45 HP in one go. I think I hit TPoS in 1/10 games or so
  24. Ryker

    Ryker Active Member

    Jely, I was talking about potential changes solely to the ace. Other changes could make the move tolerable, but that's not the meat of your post.

    The thing is, a character being boring would be a fine reason if it wasn't for the fact that so many people disagree on the issue.

    People say Guile is boring, yet he is still downback, the character and a lot of people enjoy the thought process behind his games.

    People say Morrigan is boring, she remains one of a very few reprieves from the normalcy in the game.

    I can go into more games and more equal examples if you want them, but that's a lot of probably unnecessary talking. Someone claiming that a character is boring as a reason to change them irritates me more than them making statements that are simply wrong. At what point does it become an acceptable reason?
  25. Morn

    Morn Well-Known Member

    Look. Here's the only True Power of Storms we really need:

    Fill a short glass with ice
    1 oz blue curacao
    1 oz orange vodka
    Fill with soda water
    Stir and serve

    45 damage to the liver at 0.4 speed.
  26. Aphotix

    Aphotix Super Moderator Staff Member

    Sounds more like the Tropical Power of Storms imo.
  27. Mad King

    Mad King Active Member

    People seem to think Arg is boring but I think he's the most exciting character to play in the game. Enjoyability and boredom are both really subjective and probably not the best ways to decide whether a character "needs" something.

    I personally think Grave is a lot more interesting with TPoS than without though.
    NoahTheDuke and Targie like this.
  28. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    Well I think he is alot more balanced without tpos. Also I think against arg tpos is not a great move and should usually not be used very much (certainly not naked).
  29. the-cap

    the-cap Active Member

    Call Geiger this sounds like a time for science! Deluks you should play some matchmaking and inform your opponent that you will be playing as though you did not have TPOS. I would be interested in the results.
  30. Arghy

    Arghy Active Member

    But the thing is, Grave really was built around TPoS. He was the first character in the game, and has always had the same oppressive Teapots and the same shut-down-everything Dragonheart. None of his other mechanics like having a 2-6 straight or Lightning Cloud or even Mental Toughness define him as Grave Stormborne like those two moves. Taking True Power of Storms away would take away his Graviness and leave us with some dull Ryu clone.

    If the problem with Grave really is that he's particularly decent all around and can also do a powerful thing, I applaud this situation and wish all the characters had his problems.
    Remy77077, NoahTheDuke and Morn like this.
  31. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    More than just Grave was built around TPoS. All the character life values are built it doing 50% of standard damage, and thereby all the other damage values in the game are built around it.
    NoahTheDuke likes this.
  32. JinSaotome

    JinSaotome Member

    Not entirely sure how I feel about TPoS, personally. I feel like its a massive investment for graves too since its so easy to bluff on a dodge or hitconfirmed 2, so graves has a 50-50 odds of getting that 45 damage he worked so hard for or having it fizzle in his face. Obviously that doesn't apply to raw plays, but even thats a big risk as long as you predict the opponent playing a fast attack of some kind. Most raw TPoSes I see played get blocked or dodged. While I know Graves can dodge/hitconfirm into it and Rook can't, you could argue that CMB is almost as strong at 50/4 cards, and it beats everything but attack/joker as opposed to TPoS' slower attacks+throws+jokers, but most people consider CMB to be pretty subpar.
  33. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    ^ well i think against rook mostly you want to be attacking anyway. If rook had say AAAA 50 dmg 0.0 or 0.4 attack it would be much much more dangerous. Also rook needs AA pretty badly.
  34. JinSaotome

    JinSaotome Member

    Oh, yeah, I'm of the opinion CMB is pretty subpar too (especially v TPoS), I'm just throwing the idea out there. :) As you said, CMB would be much better as an attack since you want to hit Rook a bunch anyway.
  35. major_shiznick

    major_shiznick Well-Known Member

    If we're going to compare TPoS to other moves, let's be a little more rigorous. The most card-efficient single moves in the game are as follows:

    17 - Talon Swoop
    15 - True Power of Storms, Windmill Crusher
    14 - Dragon Mountain, Pilebunker (ignoring Moral High Ground)
    13 - Final Dragon Buster (++)
    12.5 - Checkmate Buster
    12 - True-Spark Arc, Final Dragon Buster (+)
    11.5 - Great Pandamonium (+++)
    11.33 - Great Pandamonium (++)
    11 - Great Pandamonium (+)

    If we narrow this down to 30+ damage moves, we're left with TPoS, FDB, CMB, and Pandalol. Each of these has a mixup to complement it. Grave's got dodge/TPoS, Rook has special block/CMB, Midori has dodge/FDB, and Lump has Pandalol/Blackjack.

    In the case of Grave and Lump, one simply blocks to avoid it (or cheat if your name is Jaina), and getting beat with a throw at ~30-40 life (where high-damage moves yield "random" wins, as some folks complain) is not that big a deal. It hurts, but it's not crippling. Mid's covers all the combat options but is balanced by DF's fragility and low dodge count. Rook's is arguably the weakest because it's effectively beat by pokes, but this opens up AA and Rock Armor, both of which hurt more than Grave's throw->A.

    TPoS is good, but it's not disproportionately good, in my opinion. Without it as an option, Grave's endgame threats and mixups are pretty toothless.
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  36. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Graves Ace is the ONLY card on that list that can be hit confirmed without dodges(BOTH sides).
    Every single other one is a starter, or can't combo. If you "block to avoid" lum's you can catch him going for it. True his is pumpable and maybe even returned to hand, but at least one ace may be be gone. Grave can poke you with normals and combo into TPoS. It might not be an earth shattering difference but it is something tha needs to be mentioned,

    If you removed TPoS and gave him just throw/poke into A+ recurring Q and hand read his end game would still be quite lethal. I'd still rank him above grey and val honestly even without TPoS "threat".
  37. brainof7

    brainof7 Member

    you can't RTD aces back
  38. major_shiznick

    major_shiznick Well-Known Member

    So he can poke and get his normals undercut or get Joker'd out of his jockstrap. Normals are part of it, but I think it's overstated.

    And, yes, that would be a lategame threat if Q would actually recur. Blocking late as Grave (or almost anyone) is a great way to tell the opponent, "my hand sucks, come splatter me." And really, being ranked above Val and Gary are hardly accomplishments, I don't really see the point you want to make there.
  39. Kontergurke

    Kontergurke Member

    I think the point being made is: Even if you remove TPoS completely, Grave is still top tier. Which means, if TPoS was just to be nerfed slightly, he wouldn't really drop much on the overall balance scale.

    Which implies a nerf would be good to further improve balance? Of course you could also argue the other way around: Make the other characters' aces or other cards stronger to be more on par with Grave.

    But then again, I read many times that Yomi has the best balance of all competitive asymmetric games, so is further improving balance really of high priority?

    Clarification: I'm undecided on this issue, like major_ shiznick I'm just trying to understand what the point is.
  40. Aphotix

    Aphotix Super Moderator Staff Member

    There will be no nerf to TPoS. I just hope you all understand that your conversation on whether TPoS should be changed is entirely theoretical, and will make no difference to Yomi.
    NoahTheDuke likes this.
  41. friiik

    friiik Active Member

    This is a good question, and I thought I'd answer it.
    No, it's not a high priority. In fact, it is not a priority at all. The point here is that the game is already very balanced. Not fully balanced, and that makes all the difference. There exist effective counters to all characters, but not complete counters. The effective counters give a certain meta-game aspect to the picking of characters and game play overall, and these dynamics are crucial in my opinion for the longevity of a game like Yomi. Yomi with all 5-5 matchups (although admittedly, coming to the conclusion all matchups are 5-5 would take a lot of time so there would still be meta-game discussions) would still be a very good game, but I suppose it would lack some kind of...depth. Or it's just that the thought of a "tilted coinflip" is so appealing to me, that you have the option to get an inherent advantage over your opponent - when for example in a match - you're getting outplayed. The option to be able to tilt a game to your favor, by a small but still acknowledgable margin.

    Now, don't get me wrong, the game of Yomi can still be improved. Some of the advantages are, by Yomi standards, maybe a bit too strong. Or as for Grave, there aren't any strong counters to him. If there was just one 6-4 matchup against Grave, I think I would be content with that and not rebalance him.
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  42. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    My personal opinion is that emphasizing things like this is sort of a dick move.If you think a conversation is pointless then just don't be a part of it. There is no reason to essentially tell people to shut up. Regardless of my expectation of tpos changing I am interested in hearing what other people think. For example I thought friiik's last post was very interesting whatever its context.

    Also I really agree with friik that if Grave had at least one 4-6 MU I would be much happier with the games balance. At this point there is not that much someone can do to punish you for playing grave. I think that grave being as strong as he is makes the sort of metagame cycles friiik talks about less interesting.

    I am not really sure how to make Grave have a worse MU or two. Nerfing J would definately make rook a bad MU but rook loses to Panda so badly. I think its hard for grave to have a 4-6 MU since his cards are on average so good and he has a rather balanced play style.
    PePeQu and x00x like this.
  43. Turbo164

    Turbo164 Well-Known Member

    I think rather than nerfing Grave, which would affect a ton of existing matchups and affect physical copies of the game (and is flat-out unlikely to happen), it would be better to look at the still-in-beta expansion characters and see if any of them have the potential to be Grave counters. I don't know what the 3.0 changes are, but looking at the Grave side:

    Innate: Countered by strong block/throw game so it never procs, or ways to punish the "predictable" followup when it does proc, such as a Troublesome Rhetoric style ability ("you revealed a 2? k well if you dodge next turn I draw 3 cards from my 'Saw That Coming!' ability. *block*") or cards that spread the PRS matchup (such as Point Counterpoint beating all Throw/Block/Dodge, Lightning Cloud beating Throw/Block/slowattack, Unstable Power etc). Or just very strong counters to the Queens themselves.

    7*: Ability is strong against low hand size, so he can see that none of your ~4 cards are throws/dodges/whatever, so a Grave counter would need good hand building. Ability mostly gets used against grapplers that the 7throw speed is less relevant, so if Negagrave has normal 789T throws then he can dump his hand a little more safely, knowing Grave would have to spend a valuable throw. Grappler would care more, but still can't stop the Catalog (draw 2 discard 1) without a weird Megrim or something (hurt opponent when they discard; collateral damage would hit Sets, DeGrey, powerups, PF, etc).

    10*: Either have no good abilities other than innate and Ace; or make them resilient a'la Smoldering Embers where he will run out of 10s before you do; or have counters of your own (preferably as strong as Grave's rather than Arg/Sets; him losing a 10 to you losing your ability+10+the extra cost of non-grave Counters could still be relevant, but painful). Or dare I say, put TD+UP+PF on the same character so 8 of them get through anyway? *shudder*

    J: Poke/Dodge more than you block/throw. He can still use it as an efficient throw followup, but it avoids some of the free damage; and if Negagrave has strong dodges, then Grave might want the KD rather than damage.

    Q: Block/Dodge well. Really don't want to get into an arms race of having a somehow BETTER 0.0 to trade with (or a -0.2), as by that point we're making a better Grave rather than an anti-Grave, and the other 18 characters will suffer.

    A: Combos off of normal/throw/dodge/King, so to stop it you need Protective Ward or ambiguous facedowns; either very expendable cards (Setsuki, Smoldering Embers) or an outright bluff ability (2.x Onimaru's 2*).

    AAA: Throws make it hard for him to powerup or silent draw; if he does get it, again a good facedown encourages him to risk it raw.

    I don't know if any of the current expansion characters have much in that list or not. I know I missed some anyway; Rook is the Throw/Block guy and he's heavily countered by a guy with lackluster throws, so maybe there's a less obvious way to beat Grave that wouldn't murder the rest of the cast. *shrug*
  44. Mad King

    Mad King Active Member

    I feel like Gwen, Onimaru, and Vendetta are the best designs (not necessarily the best present decks) for countering Grave at the moment.

    Gwen: J*, endless mixup including a 0.0 she doesn't mind trading with sometimes, not needing to block to keep up in cards with Grave (nullifying a bit of Lightning Trap's sting).

    Onimaru: Just as card-efficient as Grave, Guard Crush makes innate a LOT harder to take advantage of, Lightning Trap doesn't hurt him as much thanks to his 1 Combo Point, Final Authority makes Grave Q a lot less good.

    Vendetta: Block a J/Q, get a poke. Also gets recursive knockdown card off a dodge.
  45. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    Something like this is the accepted Grave MU chart (or does anybody think his numbers are worse than this?):

    Arg 4.5
    Rook 4.5
    De Grey 5.0
    Geiger 5.5
    Jaina 5.5
    Midori 5.5
    Lum 5.5
    Setsuki 6.0
    Val 6.0

    Even with these rather conservative estimates it is fairly hard for me to imagine an actual metagame where Grave was not the optimal choice. If this really is the chart I guess maybe there is no problem.

    One problem is that various people debate whether rook really is a bad MU or not (at least myself and CC). Idk maybe this is pretty far from the original intent of the thread.

    Anyway one problem with tpos is that I find it very hard to consistently beat a tpos centered grave even if the grave player is new. I think tpos grave is the hardest guy to beat a large % of the time even if the non-grave guy is "Better."
    x00x likes this.
  46. Oni

    Oni Active Member

    While I think True Power of Storms is fine, especially against other Ace moves, he still feels almost too good where he can do fine against most of the cast. For practical purposes, I agree expansion characters could 'even him out'.

    Onimaru looks good because any of his attacks can be useful and scares Grave into using his few non-valuable block/throw cards, his throws are okay if better than grave's and his 2*/joker facedown game laregly kills the idea of Grave attack/dodge into True Power of Storms. Plus indeed, Onimaru is very card efficient where opponent facedown jokers are barely relevant. This forces Grave to play joker in combat, and considering Onimaru's 2*/joker, the Aces Grave might get will ideally be singular uses.
  47. Oni

    Oni Active Member

    Obscura, I understand your point clearly and maybe my implications weren't clear. I'm seeing a solution where the original cast doesn't have to change, saving character re-release and not voiding the value of the complete 1st edition. Most would see the re-release as the same game/character twice, especially remembering Puzzle Strike to Puzzle Strike Upgrade Pack.

    The expansion characters are an opportunity to resolve the problem of some characters not doing well against most of the cast, by developing them to be sufferable to weaker characters and strong against strong characters. That is, with due care: lopsided matchups are terrible and having more doubly so.
  48. brainof7

    brainof7 Member

    I think he took the numbers from some tier list thread. I really don't think Rook is less than a slight disadvantage, he just takes you out of your standard B/T early game. You still have tools like J and stuff that make the matchup ok. Arg is probably about the same since he can play the B/T early game, and can even sneak good pokes in and not really care. AAA is surprisingly not that great against Arg either, where it is a possibility against Rook.
  49. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    I do not see how Jaina/Geiger/Midori are even. I am not saying Grave crushes them but he clearly has an advantage imo.
  50. friiik

    friiik Active Member

    @Obscura
    As always, you are bold and talk with a lot of confidence. Big statements all over the place.
    Such a character is certainly a good starter for beginners. I'm not sure in how particularly "good for the game" it is, but the thought of having a "standard pick" seems kind of appealing.
    Grave is better than just "consistent" though. And that's what has been nagging at me for quite some time. If he was all 5-5 matchups, or close to it, he would be as you say "consistent".

    Don't understand this.

    I agree, the character you last would want to look at for change would probably be Grave. While he has some issues against some of the cast, he is not super dominating and maybe foremost - I can't see any good change(s) on Grave which would fix the problems. Switching 10* and 7* would balance the "auto-counter" against ability-chars, but OTOH 10* would be super good against the rest of the cast.
    What was worth noting? I don't get it. I understand the conclusion at the end, but what you basically said was "bad matchups involve all characters (except Grave)" (since you didn't mention Grave).
    I would put Val above DeGrey, Midori and Geiger. Valerie is mid-tier.

    I don't think that is a good emphasis to have when creating the new characters, but it should be helpful to keep in mind that the opportunity exist.

    Although (maybe) and interesting observation, I don't understand how that directly correlate to all bad matchups.

    I think Grave-Jaina is Grave favor, but it's very close.

    Cheers.

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