What Was Mike Watson's input into HDR?

Discussion in 'Street Fighter HD Remix' started by arstal, Apr 1, 2010.

  1. arstal

    arstal Member

    Over on SRK, he posted a thread saying that Sirlin ignored the input of Watson and over "old-school" players when making HDR? The tone was pretty negative to boot.

    I'd love to know what that input was, I have a feeling it was pretty much "do nothing", but would like to know if I'm wrong or not.
  2. Pin

    Pin New Member

    Meh, most of SRK hates HDR. They say Sirlin ruined ST.

    I think they say Sirlin invited all these old school players to test the game and give their suggestions for it but at the end of the day he just ignored their suggestions and did what he wanted (that's probably not really how it happened though).
  3. arstal

    arstal Member

    That is what they're saying. I want to know why they're saying it.

    I"m also curious what their ideas actually were, or if they had any constructive ones.
  4. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    It's impossible to listen to everyone's suggestions, not only because some of them will inevitably make some poor suggestions, but because they'll contradict each other. So if one guy says "leave in Chun's storable 80% damage super and repeated cross-up knockdowns on neckbreaker" and another guy says "uhh, that's stupid and she doesn't need it to win; take it out," then one of those guys is going to get pissed off and post about it on the internet.

    edit - And apparently no one said "hey this Akuma guy seems real good," or "maybe Honda's jab headbutt doesn't need this much invuln," so whatever.
  5. Jexik

    Jexik Member

    I can't speak to what Mike Watson's input on HDR was, but one thing that I've seen Sirlin (and other game designers say) is that there's a difference between the role of the playtester and the designer.

    What Sirlin often seems most interested in is new tier lists and general comments on how powerful stuff is, and not "hey, this is too good and here's how I'd fix it." Sometimes a proposed change might be difficult to implement or cause other problems, or as lofo said, directly contradict another suggestion.

    It's a hard thing for me to get used to as a tester for games too. Often, I'll say something like, "Why don't we change it to this," instead of, "this is too good/bad." But the latter is almost always the kind of statement that they can work with. Sometimes, they'll ask for a potential fix, but they'll usually suggest or implement one, and then see how the testers respond.
  6. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

  7. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    That was a great read Sirlin even just from the perspective of, "how does a designer sort out opposing views?"

    (Also unrelated but cool: HDR is over 1/2 off on XBLA right now)
  8. arstal

    arstal Member

    Sorry I drove you to post all that, but you do get way too much shit over there.
  9. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    As a non-FG player maybe I just don't 'get it' but can someone explain this series of logic to me:

    -ST is the better game
    -HDR has a classic mode that plays like ST but with different backgrounds (and sprites?)
    -People play HDR Gameplay at tournaments only because ST isn't on PS3

    The 2nd and 3rd points are in direction contradiction.

    So they're saying this:
    ST Graphics + ST Gameplay > HDR Graphics + ST Gameplay

    and they're saying this:
    ST Graphics + ST Gameplay > HDR Graphics + HDR Gameplay

    and then they're admitting that this is the case:
    HDR Graphics + HDR Gameplay > HDR Graphics + ST Gameplay
    (since tournaments with HDR use HDR gameplay and they don't seem to be advocating that HDR Graphics + ST gameplay should be the standard)

    So I mean... are they arguing that the graphics are the most important thing to the game? It's just some sort of weird logic vacuum that makes no sense to me.

    They = VirtuaFighterFour more so than anyone else.
  10. arstal

    arstal Member

    The SRK hivemind and logical thinking don't go together all that well.

    Best thing to do is smile, nod, and be glad you aren't one of them.
  11. sage

    sage Well-Known Member

    vf4 lives in a parallel reality where scientists have figured out how to send internet posts to other dimensions
    that seems the most likely explanation

    That was a very good post, btw, Sirlin. Amazing that anyone can seriously think HDR is bad for the scene. Yeah, ST was the gold standard in fighting games. But as far as I can tell its only real competition in the 2d arena is Hyper Fighting and KoF 98.
  12. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

    He is the worst poster in that forum, bar none.

    longest posts, filled with bullshit
  13. Kayin

    Kayin Well-Known Member

    oh god I laughed so hard I almost peed
  14. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    And yet he seems to drown out others, giving the impression his beliefs are somehow representative.

    Also, I like how he "doesn't believe" whether it was up to me to include old backgrounds or not. It was up to whoever looked at the expense of weeks of development and decided that it cost too much. I'm not sure which is more ridiculous: that, or the idea that it even matters whether a new version of SF2 has old backgrounds or not.

    Would be nice if more people chimed in to counter his insanity or something. Not exactly encouraging to contemplate making a new fighting game when SRK is so hostile toward a GREAT fighting game.
  15. Kayin

    Kayin Well-Known Member


    I mean, what can ya expect? I'd say some stuff, but I haven't posted on SRK in so long that my creditability is pretty much gone and it'll just look like sirlin.net dog-piling.
  16. BeastofBurden

    BeastofBurden Well-Known Member

    I think Sirlin gets too much shit for HDR. I think HDR is good for what it is, almost achieved it's design goal, and I like it despite preferring ST over HDR. HDR is a great game. A noble effort by Sirlin. But the whole situation sucks for the people that do prefer ST because they cannot accept the fact that Evo uses HDR as the standard. Because of that it has killed some of the motivation to play ST and makes people despise HDR even more. Plus playing HDR with all the new motions and moves, doesn't translate back well to ST. It makes your ST game worse.

    I like the "New Coke" analogy. I also like how Ganelon put it about this whole situation. I feel the same way. But I cannot stand how some people cannot respect others opinions. CHWeezy degrades Ganelon and others by calling ST "brainless shit". Yeah, people love and have been keeping the SF2 scene alive for the past 15+ years because they love "brainless" fighting games such as ST. That shows CHWeezy is new to the SF scene so he just doesn't understand or have that bond with ST to understand his opinion.

    Part of the charm and allure of the SF2 series is because of the "brainless" tactics that SF4 desperately tries to avoid (one flavor/spirit that I wish conservative & pretty damn balanced SF4 had more of) that are so fun to do, make some matches some of the craziest most tense sf matches ever, and so, so ever satisfying to win against. If I had the choice to choose between hdr or st, I'd choose ST because it's more fun to me plus I miss using or facing other versions of the characters in HDR. I like to play HF occasionally over ST despite HF being less ideal for a "balanced" game and HF has TONS of bullshit tactics. I feel the same way for ST vs HDR but the new motions, and terrible graphics of HDR makes it hard for me to go back and forth. Also HDR weakened some of that "flavor" while introducing it's own balance quirks. So I quit HDR almost completely to stick to the superior online of ggpo with way better quality players & japanese players, emulators and arcade cabinets for HF & ST that my friends own, when I want my SF2 fix.
  17. SpicyCrab

    SpicyCrab Well-Known Member

    Once people start talking about being "victimized" by video games I start to think that maybe they might not possibly be worth paying attention to.
  18. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

    Derp derp, I don't think everything in st is brainless, but choosing a more brainless game over a less brainless one seems like a stupid move.

    Thanks for saying that though, top tier, ha ha
  19. BeastofBurden

    BeastofBurden Well-Known Member

    So you're saying all the older SF's like HYPER FIGHTING and ST have no place now that HDR is out? If you want to talk about easy "brainless" tactics being stupid, then you should LOVE SF4 since it tries so hard to take all that out and homogenize gameplay. I'm just going to thumbs you down and ignore your logic and insults of calling people stupid for liking games other than for balance reasons. You just don't get it.
  20. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

    So honda 100% oicho loop, old sagat, and vega wall dive loop were fun and interesting gameplay?

    I just said you have two versions of a game. One which compresses tiers, and tries to remove brainless gameplay, and one does not. I guess choosing the one with more lame tactics is better? I guess I can handle just not getting it.
  21. BeastofBurden

    BeastofBurden Well-Known Member

    Ugh don't even simplify it to those reasons why I prefer ST over HDR (as if they are the main reasons). Really, really desperate and missing the point here.
  22. sage

    sage Well-Known Member

    Well I mean, tighter tiers is not what everyone looks for in a game. Some people actively like underdogs just so they can play them, for instance. Some people just like crazy overpowered shit because it's fun.

    HDR had a different goal, and it achieved that. Marvel had a totally different goal, and it achieved that too. Different games. Now I guess some people like ST for the striation, others liked it for other reasons. HDR is definitely a different game in certain ways, some of those ways people are not gonna like.

    still "killed st outside of japan" is silly, I guess this is basically a vf4 hatethread at this point
  23. arstal

    arstal Member

    Some people like competitive fighitng games. Some peeple just want to win.

    That's what it boils down to in my eyes. The 2nd group I honestly don't give a crap what they like- they remind me of Wal-Mart UNC fans you see all over North Carolina.
  24. BullDancer

    BullDancer New Member

    Believe it or not those tactics were actually fun to use/ play against(yes including the Chun-Li 50/50 but minus O. Sagat, he's just a bullshit character and boring to use/play against).....

    HDR is a more conservative game imo, but keeps alot of the ST flavor and gives me different ways to play characters that I liked in ST but in ST making mistakes was more dangerous due to the tactics such as the ones listed above and was a bit more erratic(due to the randomness in the game).... I wonder is this part for the Street Fighter formula that players believe is missing...

    The argument FOR more difficult inputs was one that irked me the most....

    I truly cannot pick a personal favorite though.... I guess it depends on which one I feel like playing on any given day....

    EDIT: @Arstal I've been a UNC fan for most of my life though that's what you really think of us lol:(
  25. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

    Sorry, honda oicho loop is not fun to play against. basically if i get knockdown against honda, I might as well put down the controller. It isn't really fun to not play.
  26. sdwoodchuck

    sdwoodchuck New Member

    I don't know many who take VF4's posts seriously, or consider him anything more than a very vocal, abrasive person with extreme opinions. Almost nobody directly argues with him anymore, because it's a huge waste of time. He doesn't ever relent, and once he has decided he is right on an issue, he will just continue to be obtuse and insulting. He only "drowns out the others" if you let him. That you are saying "SRK" is so hostile toward a great fighting game shows that you are letting him drown out the positive.

    It's funny, because I even agree with him, so far as to say that I prefer ST over HDR (though unlike VF4, I think HDR is a fantastic game as well), but even when I agree with him, I usually have to roll my eyes at the way he says it. That brand of hostility toward differing opinions clearly doesn't promote any worthwhile discussion. That's something CWheezy should take to heart as well, with his tendency to over-simplify the position's he's arguing against, and then mocking the straw-man he's built.
  27. BeastofBurden

    BeastofBurden Well-Known Member

    So hdr is a brainless game? hah
  28. MajinSweet

    MajinSweet Well-Known Member

    He said "less brainless", and why argue over semantics anyway?

    I don't know why people on either side bother arguing all over this. Is it really a surprise whats going on here? When I was reading the articles about a revised version of ST I knew no matter what the changes were, that people would bitch. It could have been anything. Literally any change was going to get people whining. Call it nostalgia, OG's not wanting to relearn, whatever. Just pick what version you want to be play and shut up, seriously.
  29. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

    Having trouble reading brah?
  30. Kayin

    Kayin Well-Known Member

    Can we stop fighting over a difference in terminology? Considering some other people on another forum at being total assclowns about the subject, we should be happy to have a level of agreement here.
  31. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    The reactions are natural.

    1)Arcade gamers don´t want things changed, as do console gamers. The lived and were born in a generation of games don´t get patched, they are what they are and you have to master what you get.

    2)Really good players are generally more against change than not good players, especially dominant players.
    If you are winning a lot, what´s your benefit of the game changing?.

    Put both together and you have the mix you are seeing.

    Still you have a time before games can be changed. After you surpass that time, the gamers are established with paradigms. Once that happen, trying to change it just comes back with hate.
    Paradigms though can delay things but not stop them.If something is really better, it will triumph any paradigms.
    The better stuff will triumph the market with no paradigms and eventually the ones that had will realize their position is bad and follow.
    The problem here as far as i know with HDR remix has nothing to do with quality, has to be with the game not properly released, worldwide, and it seems in arcade for japan. (And capcom almost wanting to bury the game releasing sf4 soon after and with a LOT better marketing and proper release)

    Since HDR will ¨fail¨ to expand for those reasons, the ¨retros¨ will put the blame on the ¨paradigm changes¨ instead of real reasons.
    This is a pattern that repeats on itself in a lot of situations in life, be games or whatever thing you want.
    That´s how things look for me right now at least.
  32. sdwoodchuck

    sdwoodchuck New Member

    There's another reason, and it's one Sirlin has touched on in some articles in the past as well. Lots of competitive gamers want a game that stands as a consistent pillar. People who play games competitively outside of the videogame world don't really have to deal with their game being completely replaced. Sure, in sports there are frequently alterations to the rules, but rarely so much that the entire game changes, and certainly not on the level that you get from one iteration of Street Fighter to the next. Chess players are playing the same game now that chess players five years ago, ten years, ago, and one-hundred years ago played. Now, I'm sure Sirlin was trying to make a game that was more capable of standing that test of time. The intent was certainly there. But a lot of ST players felt they already had the game that was capable of being that consistent pillar, and having it changed and replaced makes it feel that much more transitory.
  33. PoisonDagger

    PoisonDagger Active Member

    Pfft, will SRK even matter if you make a good fighting game? If you're attempting to expand the market like with your card games (by basing them on non-BS values that nobody else offers) instead of catering to the existing one, then the existing group won't even have much say in how popular it becomes.

    There's a lot more to shoot for than some vocal group of elitists on the internet.

    Also, this whole "Sirlin didn't listen to OG players" just seems childish. Sirlin isn't just some OG ST player that got to rebalance it his way. He's a game designer who can view the game with an objectivity that few other players can. Obviously, the other players with a more objective viewpoint saw more of their input stick (Choi, for example) because they know more about the game than just how to play it.
  34. arstal

    arstal Member

    Well, I still have questions over whether the card stuff will be profitable. (not commenting on quality, but whether people would buy it.) I'll probably start believing when I see Sirlin stuff at our local fighting game gathering (which is held in a card shop). I hope it works out though, for it could fund future projects.

    That said, you don't need SRK to have a successful fighting game. Smash and Soul Calibur are both proof that SRK isn't needed, and really SRK is nothing more then a small minority in the end. Now, I'm not saying that Smash and SC are good or bad (I dislike Smash and like SC), but they are profitable franchises, and another Smash or Soul Calibur would sell well and make money.
  35. carbsmith

    carbsmith New Member

    SRK is somewhat what you have to deal with for a traditional 2D fighter. Of course, most of SRK knows SRK's opinions are somewhere between stupid and irrelevant most of the time. I don't need to go any further than "Street Fighter IV" to make that point.
  36. PoisonDagger

    PoisonDagger Active Member

    If by "dealing with SRK" you mean "putting up with their ignorant, obnoxious comments", then sure. But it's not like they're accurately representative of the playerbase, especially the playerbase that likes the game.

    The majority of people post on forums to bitch about things. Even if the bitching outnumbers the compliments, chances are the haters are still vastly outnumbered.
  37. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    But chess players now are *not* playing the same game that chess players played 200 years ago, as it happens. And if you go back 500 or 1000 years, there were some fairly massive changes.

    Your example kind of fails because you're taking something that became good specifically because of hundreds of years of continual changes to somehow argue that a new, different thing shouldn't be changed.
  38. Jobber

    Jobber Well-Known Member

    It's not a perfect analogy (when is one ever?), but I can agree with his point. Chess took hundreds of years to evolve, as you mentioned, but then one day it stopped, and the rules have been consistent for beyond most (every?) current players' lifetimes. The current game appears to be in its final evolution, and it's rather safe to assume that what we have now is what we will forever have.

    From 1991-1994, we had five official SF2 arcade releases featuring four major revisions. HDR, which is sort of like SF2 ver 5.5, came out over 14 years later. If anything, the chess analogy really underlines the idea of why a (stubborn) gamer who's been following the SF2 series for so long would be perturbed by significant gameplay changes.

    That said, I don't agree with the naysayers at all. I believe HDR is unequivocally a better game overall than ST. The only misgiving I have about HDR's status as the US tournament standard is that now we're playing a different game than Japan, and the US vs. Japan quasi-rivalry is intriguing and adds to SF2's appeal. But how people can be against modernized graphics and gameplay optimized for today's gamer and his home A/V equipment is a bit beyond me.
  39. Xom

    Xom Patreon Supporter

    Wait how do you switch to ST music?
  40. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    It's in the sound options somewhere.
  41. sdwoodchuck

    sdwoodchuck New Member

    Again relatively small changes are not nearly the same as whole new iterations of the game. But more importantly, I'm not arguing that (the bolded segment of your post) at all. I'm saying that is one of the mentalities that go against HDR. It is one I can share and understand to some degree, but I also appreciate new games and changes to the existing games. Like all things, when you take that opinion to the extreme of viewing it as the only "right" view, you cause conflicts.

    Personally, I enjoy ST, and I think it is currently in better position to be the game people keep returning to ten or twenty years down the line. I also enjoy HDR, and I feel that it deserves a fair shot at its own success (whether that success is short-lived, or long-term) without a bunch of people finding arbitrary reasons to knock it down a notch. It is a shame that more competitive events don't support both games, and it's a shame more competitive players don't as well. Unfortunately, polarized opinions seem to be all too common, and the "ST is perfect, HDR is for scrubs" and "HDR makes ST obsolete and ST players just hate the game because can't win without their overpowered tactics" mindsets are equally harmful and silly.
  42. tataki

    tataki Well-Known Member

    The most annoying and ignorant people are usually the most vocal ones. You can't dismiss everyone on SRK based on 5 stupid people. I think most of SRK has no problem with HDR.

    Did you read the reasons to why people are against it?
    1. I hate the graphics/music/whatever non-gameplay issue
    2. I love execution!
    3. It's splitting the community (again not something to do with the game itself. Capcom could release it in the arcades and be done with it, but how is it HDR's fault?)

    The user VF4 is just a professional hater on everything, but the real damage is done by respected OGs hating on the game for weird reasons.
  43. carbsmith

    carbsmith New Member

    Why does everyone ignore the admission I made after the first sentence of that paragraph?
  44. Jexik

    Jexik Member

    I think there's something to that last complaint, actually, but again, it's no fault of Sirlin's really, unless he did what some of them are suggesting (just make a direct port of the arcade game). If the support for ST was already in decline, breaking it out into two competing factions who don't like the other game might not be good for the SF2 scene.

    But the fact that you can still use HDR to play old ST (if it were actually superior/more fun) kind of stifles that line of thought.
  45. tataki

    tataki Well-Known Member

    Have you ever considered that maybe it's impossible to make a port of ST that is 100% arcade accurate? IIRC even the ST version in HDR has some differences.
    Since we can't please those who crave for 100% authentic ST on console, how about just trying to make a new better game?
  46. carbsmith

    carbsmith New Member

    Well, the HDR version is an improved version of the DC port, which half of those people are saying they want even though it has pretty obvious differences.
  47. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    My understanding is that the minute differences between the arcade version and the ports don't really come up? I'd be interested in learning of any important differences, but it seems silly to whine about "not arcade perfect" when the differences are so small and don't detract from the gameplay.

    Also the splitting the community thing is rather silly. That would happen with any similar new game.
  48. Pin

    Pin New Member

    Is it me, or were some people actually saying ST is more fun because it's more unbalanced?

    Speaking of that, what does everyone thing of that concept? For example, to me, Honda seems like a badly designed character because he has so many lopsided matchups. But maybe that makes him more fun?
  49. Kayin

    Kayin Well-Known Member

    No one really likes a fighting game BECAUSE it's imbalanced, but what they like may cause imbalances. The only thing I think comes off as 'liking' imbalance are 'low tier heroes', guys who like to try and win with awful characters.

    No, people like ST because it's more, how you will, unhinged. Whats important here is balance is not the post important thing (nor should it be, because if Balance is THE most important thing, you'd never even bother with an asymmetrical game). People want the characters to do crazy retarded stuff. Look at MVC2, Hokuto no Ken or whatever. People eat up that shit, as long as it manages to be playable. Deep balance isn't important to these people, but it's not undesirable.

    I know Sirlin and I both look at Slash as the pinnacle of Guilty Gear, but AC was much more popular? Why? Slash was booooring (well, according to a lot of people who make me sad). Nothing felt broken and wild and powerful. It was a smart, fair game.

    It's really no secret that the best games are games where the game feels as broken as possible while still being balanced. You want things to feel super good, but often in fighting games, thats hard to achieve. Because of this, games which are insanely unbalanced but still viable have a lot of popularity. Anyways, thats more how the psychology behind that goes. I think Sirlin did a great job maintaining ST's unhinged feeling while smoothing out the spots that were just too rough. Combine what I said with ST being a old game where people hate change, and all the bitching makes more sense, even if it's often totally detached from reality.
  50. 2000 IQ Killjoy Gamer link6616

    2000 IQ Killjoy Gamer link6616 Well-Known Member

    This is one of those posts that makes me feel sad about the rating system... I feel compelled to upvote this multiple times (and this isn't the first time I've thought this)

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