/*~ Witchhunt 5 Signups ~*\

Discussion in 'Forum Games' started by Chocolate Pi, Dec 16, 2010.

  1. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    If we're going to have no effect whatsoever on the game, we should probably get full chat access, or at least the full rolelist. That said, there is so much risk of info leaking that this doesn't quite sound like a good idea.

    Optional involvement, with an advantage to having more players involved (could simply be more people to bounce ideas off of) but no downside to having less, sounds best to me.
  2. Godric

    Godric Member

    Hey Choco Pi, I'll sign up as an alternate, seeing as you don't have any yet. Ruleset looks really interesting.
  3. Chocolate Pi

    Chocolate Pi Well-Known Member

    Alright, back and ready for business. Family events + Mass Effect killed my time. (Yeah I know; as one of my friends said, "Gee, hope you have a great 2008!")

    I should have specified what the exact rules text for GA protection would be: I was originally thinking about no repeat on whiffed Protect, as you guys were led to suggest after assuming otherwise. The thought process was similar.

    I've been thinking a lot about Witch GA involvement. A lot of good points have been raised in terms of framing the situation. The underlying problem, I think, is that actually playing Witch GA properly requires a very large amount of effort for a very diminished return that's hard to even conceptualize at all. This causes Witches to give up and in this case, dead men tell lots of tales. Framing this behavior as profusely anti-Witch (which is correct) really puts the situation into perspective.

    I like the Ghost/Haunt keywords for a Witch afterlife parallel to GAs. I actually think someone suggested them awhile back--they are natural choices for such.

    The actual mechanic would be "The Night a target is Haunted, all Checks targeting that player return a result of "blocked" with Ghosts selecting a target to Haunt via a process identical to the GAs. (As written this applies to MS, but not Diviner.)

    As a mild counter-balance, an intuitive option is that Spiritualist would get Ghost target info. This is pretty tame and has deceptively little merit.

    For the time being, I would be inclined to also permit Ghosts access to GA chat--if nothing else to avoid mechanically confirming Witch IDs to GAs. I am also very interested in preserving the subtle rubber-banding GAs effect on the early game.

    Thoughts?
  4. sukaeto

    sukaeto New Member

    Love it. (So long as the ghosts still have access to regular deadguy chat - pretty much for your listed reason.)
  5. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    I like the idea of 'Haunt' not blocking GA action because it potentially allows Spy to be permitted into Ghost chat.

    At first the prospect of blocking a check seems extremely challenging but considering that Ghosts are allowed into GA chat (where they are informed of checks/their results?) it might not actually be that hard. Unfortunately, unlike surviving a murder, there is no ambiguity behind being informed that a check was blocked; with the current rules, anyone who has a check blocked will know exactly what caused it.

    That said, I don't like the idea of 'Haunt' returning a result of 'Block' because this potentially gives info roles more information than succeeding early game. A simple example is if the Night 1 Priest check is 'Blocked' then the Priest just learned day 1 lynch was a witch; I'm sure a more complex example could be crafted where a Blocked check is used to detect a Witch sacrifice mimicking a Vigilante Kill. To limit cases where 'Haunting' is sub-optimal, 'Haunt' should just cause checks to return as 'Good' regardless of alignment; I know some people are against false checks but with JW/LW those already exist in this version and Haunt seems too weak otherwise.

    RANDOM THOUGHT: Bard Lovers Cupid might be a degenerate game state.

    RANDOM OBSERVATION: Lovers have no incentive not to reveal?
  6. Sotek

    Sotek Super Moderator Staff Member

    But you won't know what the alignment of the checkee is! Is it a witch that the witches blocked "just in case", or is it a townie that the witches blocked to mess you up?

    It probably doesn't occur very often, all in all, but it mixes things up a bit.

    Uh. Are you forgetting that witches can Haunt town?

    Not really? No more than anything-lovers-Cupid. Bard amping cupid in that world gains nothing significant. He can stall his N1 amp to N2, but he doesn't actually get any additional amps.
  7. Chocolate Pi

    Chocolate Pi Well-Known Member

    Correct. This is the intention.

    This is really only an issue N1.

    This is many magnitudes stronger, absurdly so. It is a complete kick in the nuts to all info roles, making their power quickly drop off to zero as the game goes on. (Info roles become null and void when their is only one Witch left by this mechanic.)

    I can't express how much I don't understand this sentence. "Too weak?" For what, compared to what? How can an abstract mechanical idea be "too weak?" The purpose is to provide an interesting alternative to dead witches simply to distract them from masturbatory behavior, not to provide any hard balance implications.

    How so?

    They also have no incentive to reveal, unless they are about to be lynched.

    Note that this is mildly valuable information to the Witches that they cannot otherwise get without an Enchantress claim.
  8. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    What makes haunting so powerful if that there are MANY abilities to block, some of which don't even happen every night, esp bishop. With no way to coordinate checks to target different people, I'm worried about Garciahunt N1 with a witch dead - that's just way too much wasted info.

    I'd be tempted to ask witches to decide what role to block or something - it would especially discourage "diviner should check Alex for survivalist tonight" but not upset balance much otherwise. This would allow to open up more possibilities to block.

    Or, maybe make an ordered list of "check priorities" (e.g. priest, gambler, bishop) and it only blocks the first check in the list (which was actually made on that target, of course). I'd still suggest not affecting ms here.

    It should probably stopped from repeating a bit like GA protection.

    This is all a bit mangled 'cause my mind's really in Cv5 right now.

    Oh yeah, and about Mass Effect : the great thing with playing games two years late is that by now you know if they were really good or just a fad. Also, it will allow you to start the second game while still remembering what the hell you did on minor side quests.

    Oh, and by my count, Bard lovers Cupid amps Cupid N1, which gives him THREE amps N2, which he can cycle for the rest of the game to keep four people amped at all times (cupid, himself, and two more). On top of that, neither can be murdered until a special ability knocks cupid out of the game.
  9. x1372

    x1372 Active Member

    Definitely like the idea of the haunt mechanic.

    I still think that the end result of this ruleset is an amazingly high innocent advantage. Like, 75%+ chance of innocent victory, assuming all roles in play. Probably higher. But its another grand experiment that I will be happy to participate in.
  10. Sotek

    Sotek Super Moderator Staff Member

    That's not how amps work.

    If he amps Cupid N1, N2 he has two amps. He can Amp cupid again to get two amps N3, and amp a total of three people each time, two of whom do effectively nothing when amped except keep it going, thereby letting him ... amp one person a night. woo?
  11. Karrius

    Karrius Well-Known Member

    Bard specifically says he can amplify two ADDITIONAL targets. So N1 amp cupid, N2 you have three amps - one for cupid, two elsewhere.

    Obviously, you'd try to hit Leeroy.
  12. Sotek

    Sotek Super Moderator Staff Member

    Oh, he was changed. Huh. Yeah, then, bard lovers with cupid or bard lover who finds cupid: ridic.
  13. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Haunt as it is seems too weak to make witches feel like their post-life actions matter; although the current game was balanced around no haunt so I suppose it doesn't matter if it actually is weak.

    Bard Lovers Cupid means Bard should always AMP his lover. There is no role that sees AMPs and no role that blocks AMP. By the current rules Bard AMPing his cupid lover should always result in him getting 2 AMPs every night (if this isn't the case then the rules are they read are wrong). Additionally you have this engine with automatic self-sustaining protection. In effect you have a double bard traveler.

    I see lovers in this version going exactly like they did in Sotek hunt, with one exception. In Sotek hunt scum lovers were possible, in this they're not. Lovers revealing N1 gives town two know town and gives MS two free real checks.
  14. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    Maybe Cupid should just be excluded from lovers to prevent stupid degenerate cases?
  15. koopatroop

    koopatroop Well-Known Member

    I think the amp power on cupid needs to be fixed. Also can someone explain little witch. Does it really read avoid death for all time?
  16. koopatroop

    koopatroop Well-Known Member

    How does MS work with little witch and the other non-coven witch?
  17. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    It only protects her from witch vote. Basically, if spy is publicly revealed, little witch can decline to join the coven but drink the potion anyway, and she checks good but also can't be nightkilled.
  18. Sotek

    Sotek Super Moderator Staff Member

    I would assume they count as "town" until joining coven.
  19. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    I guess if coven gets lucky enough, the bard lover that finds cupid early game is lovers with Leeroy...

    Even thematically Cupid shouldn't ever be a lover. Bard lover gets broken a bit too easily as well, but maybe cupid's amp doesn't affect the bard, only gambler's. Hey wait, still broken if they find each other.

    How about the bard's amped power isn't that. Maybe next night he gets told if person he amped used the power or not? As long as we decide ahead of time how edge cases get ruled (bishop!), it shouldn't be too crazy and shouldn't give much in the way of hard info - yes means town but no can mean a lot of things.

    Also, bard could amp himself again - he wastes an amp for additional info on the next one, which he likely wouldn't do unless the amp came from elsewhere, and amping cupid for bard lover accomplishes almost nothing.
  20. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    Actually, for my last suggestion, a potioned witch could register as a yes for using the amped power - so it's not 100% reliable, especially if Chumpy gets spy and lets random witches drink the potion as some sort of gambit.

    Oh yeah, how does a poisoned witch look to town? I assume it's 100% obvious to witches.
  21. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    ps

    If you think about it, haunting ghosts actually interact favorably with spy amp; a priest doesn't 100% know it was witches, it could just be that bard targeted the spy.
  22. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    ChocoPi: Are you sending out role PMs today?

    (Or maybe just graduated coven, so lovers can get chosen outside aforementioned shenanigans...)
  23. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    ChocoPi, am I a role or a stand-in, and if so do I need to PM you about it?
  24. Chocolate Pi

    Chocolate Pi Well-Known Member

    I'll considered you confirmed. I'm happy running with 27 or 28.

    Edit: Anyone want to double-check my randomization code?

    Code:
    witchCount = 8
    spy = random.randint(0,witchCount)
    for i in range(witchCount):
        if i == spy:
            roleList[i] = roleList[i] + " (SPY)"
        else:
            roleList[i] = roleList[i] + " (WITCH)"
    
    random.shuffle(roleList)
    
    town = []
    for i in range(len(players)):
        if player[i] = 'garcia':
            town.append((players[i],'Acolyte')
        elif (player[i] = 'Arkaal') or (player[i] = 'x1372'):
            town.append((players[i],roleList.randomWitch(witchCount))
        elif (player[i] = 'Chocolate Pi'):
            town.append((players[i],'Priest')
        else:
            town.append((players[i],roleList[i]))
    
    for x in town:
        print x
  25. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    I think you have error on line 16 it says:
    Code:
    elif (player[i] = 'Chocolate Pi'):
            town.append((players[i],'Priest')
    
    should be:
    Code:
    elif (player[i] = 'Chocolate Pi'):
            town.append((players[i],'DEVIL')
    
  26. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    Bug report: Alex not building as survivalist. Next thing you'll tell me it's a feature...
  27. Sotek

    Sotek Super Moderator Staff Member

    Yeah, you left out the role lists, and it should be 0,witchCount-1 for spy. ;)
  28. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    So randint(i) isn't exclusive (in range [0..i) )?
  29. Chocolate Pi

    Chocolate Pi Well-Known Member

    In unrelated news, I decided that the roles we're not playing with we aren't playing with for a reason, and thus they should be changed. (Not that this has any effect on the impending game.)

    Bishop has been nerfed, and Grave Digger will be replaced by "Strategist".

    Winning faction gets to decide what Strategist does!
  30. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Just a heads up - not sure how much time I'll have to post tomorrow. Going back to uni this week, so.
  31. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    I'll be away most of the day as well, but hope I can fulfill basic <my role> tasks in the morning, and probably post when I get home.

    Strategist: Do you want us to throw ideas out there for winning faction to decide, or just wait until the game ends to figure something out?
  32. sukaeto

    sukaeto New Member

    You *do* have an error on line 16. Instead of

    Code:
    town.append((players[i],'Priest')
    it should be

    Code:
    town.append((players[i],'Priest'))
    Likewise with the "garcia's the aco" line. ;-)

    edit: Also, -Y- might be right. In Python, ranges are usually inclusive at the floor/exclusive at the ceiling. So 0,witchCount may be correct. I'm not sure though. Apparently neither is Sotek. (not that being sure is necessary - just test it when you need to know. ~_^)
  33. Sotek

    Sotek Super Moderator Staff Member

    I am sure - I got a no-spy roll.
  34. koopatroop

    koopatroop Well-Known Member

    So umm just pointing out before the game starts and roles get assigned. I don't yet fully understand the rule set so I might be slow on posting (also fairly busy atm) so don't assume its suspicious.

    BTW, this game as a level of jargon approaching a MTG expansion. How many more words to indicate a way of death can we add?
  35. sukaeto

    sukaeto New Member

    Welp! There's the test!
  36. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    Apparently you can be sacced, voodooed, maimed, revenged, killed, sacrificed, lynched, croaked, de-lifeyfied, zombiefied, devoured, assassinated, silenced, erased, terminated with mild prejudice, poisoned, eradicated and brought to a slow end by forcing you to watch the 24 hour Twilight-themed movie, book and fan-fiction marathon (apparently Vogon poetry isn't painful enough).

    SERIOUS NOTE:
    Also what does DOB killing everyone thrice means? Does it bypass extra lives or something? Does the spy know which witch/role is trying to drink a potion?
  37. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    Yes, DOB's multikills are to get around extra lives, warlock, etc

    Spy is told the name of the player trying to drink a potion, but not the role, if I'm not mistaken
  38. Karrius

    Karrius Well-Known Member

    The demon card still needs updated.

    Does the spy count as a witch?

    Does the spy count as a witch?

    Does a BOD lover being lynched count as dying to a lynch?

    How exactly does this work voting wise? Do they vote for two in "blocks" ? Is it the two highest votes? Do they vote for one as a group, and then vote for another as a group? Do you realize this may really slow things down if it's just sprung on the GAs?

    Does this mean that...
    -You can only ever get this benefit once
    -This extra life does not apply if the gambler already has one
    -The gambler has a "one extra life" maximum
    -ALL characters have a "one extra life" maximum

    Does a Martyr save fall under "targeted but survives" ?

    Does this have to be at the start of the night, or can it be whenever? If the little witch chooses to join after a coven vote had already been locked in, what happens? Is it reset? Is it only reset if her vote would make it a non-majority? Ditto for sacrifice.

    As written, this does not apply to Diviner. Intended?

    This is ANYTHING but usual! A bard can't amp himself, and a mad scientist can't check himself (or can he now?).

    Should probably say "Unless a Protected player was targeted FOR MURDER..."
  39. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    Hey u guy

    I will start out pretty inactive for the first few days. Busy with year-end reports
  40. Chocolate Pi

    Chocolate Pi Well-Known Member

    Yes, killing someone twice or even thrice is just the DOB's evil little method of operations.

    The Spy is informed of the player: "Bob is drinking a potion, poison yes/no?"

    I will ask the Spy to queue their default response (presumably "yes, poison") at the start of the game.

    I have all the cards updated and ready to go, writing PM/QT text now before final proofread and upload.

    No and no. The Spy is not a Witch and is never treated as such for any ability purposes.

    Ruling: No.

    It's two votes, but nothing stops them from voting both at once. As it's plurality and there is rarely dissent among active GAs, this should not be any sort of problem with response to deadlines.

    The second, the Gambler can only have once Extra Life from his power at any given time. I'm actually surprised this can be ambiguous, was anyone else confused by this?

    Of course. I think the Vigilante text is pretty clear, does the FAQ make it more confusing?

    Coven votes aren't locked in until Night ends. I would generally ask that the JW join at the start of Night.

    Yes.

    Bard is the only role who cannot target himself, as explicitly stated on the card. MS can Check against himself (effectively Priest for a Night), which is a very useful tool to save for an important Night.

    It's kinda implied, but there is no harm in adding it.
  41. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    Dream = crushed

    I hope there's a reasonable lag to let the spy change his mind. I'm still bitter about quickhunt. :mad:
  42. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    I know that one!

    The gambler can never have more than one extra life coming from his gambler ability at a time. So he could get extra lives from other sources before or after he rolls the die and they would still count. If he loses his "gambler" extra life he can regain it by rolling it again, whether or not he still has extra lives from other sources.

    Players "lose extra lives in the order most favourable to them", although I can see this being unclear at times.

    Lots of good questions, though - glad t have you in again!
  43. koopatroop

    koopatroop Well-Known Member

    is there somewhere in that faq that summarizes the different types of death

    murder, lynching, silencing, night kill, targeting

    etc. I'm fairly confused.
  44. Chocolate Pi

    Chocolate Pi Well-Known Member

    Alright Archon, now I want you to ask Sotek a question.

    Wait crap, too soon and I'm not even playing, doh.

    Edit:
    The very start of the faq covers this.

    Also for the record, "Murder" is the official rules-word for "night kill", aka "what the witches do". ("night kill" is not in the rules anywhere unless I made a huge mistake.) This is super-intentional because the words "night kill" can be very misleading and confusing: not all kills that happen at night are "night kills".

    Also for the record, targetting is a super-generic verb (not even a keyword) used for all abilities or actions that in some way select any single living player.
  45. Karrius

    Karrius Well-Known Member

    I'm mostly just fishing for ANY sorts of ambiguity. I've long learned not to trust an interpretation, as it may be different. I assume that if a gambler has two extra lives, one from BoD, one from his power, his power is lost first? Or is it based on order of application?
  46. Chocolate Pi

    Chocolate Pi Well-Known Member

    As the FAQ says, it's in the order most favorable to him. (Loses his ability Extra Life first.)
  47. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    Doesn't that make the Vigilante reveal a lynched spy by using his power, though?
  48. -Y-

    -Y- Well-Known Member

    Before the game starts I must state that I have the case of the sniffles, so I sleep lot and that my messages will be short as ever.
  49. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    Well, this was about my last chance to post today, so I'll see you all tomorrow (or much later).
  50. Chocolate Pi

    Chocolate Pi Well-Known Member

    Almost done... PMs/QTs will be sent almost immediately.

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