*~/WITCHHUNT Game 4\~*

Discussion in 'Forum Games' started by Chocolate Pi, Aug 31, 2010.

  1. koopatroop

    koopatroop Well-Known Member

    Except that I was fairly certain that x was a non-WW part of WW faction.

    He was like he guys don't know lynch cause you know the witches will come back. But that made no sense and it was obviously just trying to get us to help WW.
     
  2. koopatroop

    koopatroop Well-Known Member

    Too bad we never could have successfully lynched x anyway, he just would have been devoured. I guess what I should have done was gotten people to move x. Wait that wouldn't have worked either. WWs should not be able to devour their lovers :p

    I guess my biggest mistake was putting too much weight to Chumpy being WW. But like I couldn't believe Chumpy actually didn't check me or skipped checking Milski. In fact I don't still. Also when he confirmed x as town, I was 95% certain he was our side's WW. Link was under my radar the whole time :(

    I'm pretty sure Benoit Hache was priest and Garcia was his acolyte. Garcia had really nice acolyte play, I thought, avoiding the need to use claims to out Sotek's spy claim.
     
  3. Chocolate Pi

    Chocolate Pi Well-Known Member

    Ending game, Werewolf faction wins by default.

    Code:
    EAST SIDE:
    ('Lofobal', 'Warlock')
    ('Zejety', 'D.O.B.')
    ('DragonChild', 'Leeroy Jenkins')
    ('AN148', 'Junior Witch')
    ('Sage', 'Acolyte')
    ('x1372', 'Wizard')
    ('icewolf34', 'Survivalist')
    ('link6616', 'Werewolf')
    ('acidile', 'Demon (SPY)')
    ('Scarecrow', 'Correspondent')
    ('sukaeto', 'Enchantress')
    ('Chumpy', 'Priest')
    ('koopatroop', 'Traveller (MAYOR)')
    ('CWheezy', 'Medium')
    
    WEST SIDE:
    ('Sotek', 'Demon (MAYOR)')
    ('ChadMiller', 'Vampire Hunter')
    ('Arkaal', 'Necromancer')
    ('Fry', 'D.O.B.')
    ('RoieTRS', 'Nun')
    ('Milskidasith', 'Werewolf')
    ('jiaflu', 'Judge')
    ('garcia1000', 'Acolyte')
    ('Benoit Hache', 'B.O.D.')
    ('Wobberjacky', 'Assassin (SPY)')
    ('bbobjs', 'Priest')
    ('riotsrfun2005', 'Survivalist')
    ('Maris', 'Junior Witch')
    ('Boco', 'Martyr')
    ('stew', 'Warlock')
    Witch Chat W-1: http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/Vq86yByBuhZ8
    Witch Chat W-2: http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/5cmtwwTHNXf
    Witch Chat W-3: http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/TiYVSvtAcJf
    Witch Chat W-4: http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/TnxjP36THTBh

    Witch Chat E-1: http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/QVntMXpUn3ZU
    Witch Chat E-2: http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/pTZA8BvKFDU
    Witch Chat E-3: http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/xgDe5KMhNQQa
    Witch Chat E-4: http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/2Jt9fXSuifL

    WW Chat: http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/D96bf8Q8KQY

    Angel Chat: http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/JmDssxQAc8Nvg

    So, a few thoughts.

    First, it's really obvious now that we just can't have Sacrifice reward anymore. I'm gonna repeat that to emphasize: We cannot have any reward for Sacrifice, period. Players simply can never be trusted with a tool that is predominantly masturbatory.

    Like Sotek is a pretty smart guy, and Arkaal and the other West side witches are all not-stupid people. The fact of the matter is though, you give them a loaded gun and they shoot themselves.

    Every game.

    I'm not sure what to say other than that; there is absolutely zero possibility of ever again providing witches with illusionary incentive to kill themselves.

    Second, the Werewolf will have to be converted to a life system, such that town can deal with him in response to suicidal playing-to-lose witches. I'm actually more convinced nor that this setup lacks kingmaker when players play optimally. However, every faction has the opportunity to self-sabotage to make themselves kingmaker over the other two--this makes the cost of failure of other game systems much steeper.

    For example, normally superterribad plays like JW joining coven N1 or sacing a witch N1 would just result in Witches losing, and all is right. However, currently the WW makes these nonsense suicidal witch plays put themselves in a kingmaker position. Similarly, town's simply horrendous idea of sending a Spy to expose both covens put them in a can't-win kingmaker state as well, rather than making them just lose.

    Third, I want to touch on the town split idea. My intuition about pretty much everything about the split and what was done in the topic were pretty opposite.

    It seemed beyond obvious to me that moving people is good for town and bad for coven. Coven has no benefit to being moved (and disadvantages for enchantress/demon), but the (unrevealed) Spy and several town roles have great incentive to. It also seemed obvious that moving a revealed Spy from one town to the other completely sabotaged all hopes that Innocents had for ever killing the Werewolves. I actually still can't believe you guys did this.

    I also need to apologize yet again for my herp derp stupid ruling without thinking that had to be corrected.

    It's weird because I feel pretty good about dual-towns after seeing it in action, but I feel there's a massive intuition gap for many players--that the utility and functionality of the switch mechanic is not understood. I'm interested in thoughts on this.

    Fourth, the costs of playing with a large group of people becomes very steep, especially when people go inactive. I probably should have done a better job of replacing inactive players like jiaflu.

    Summary: This was a good case, because it showed the need to make sure game systems are robust enough to withstand sub-optimal play.

    I'll post more in a bit.
     
  4. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

    pi we voted that everyone wins
     
  5. Chocolate Pi

    Chocolate Pi Well-Known Member

    No. Everyone loses, and Icegoten wins.

    Again.

    The only difference is that this time I lose too.
     
  6. AN148

    AN148 New Member

    It's finally over and I can finally post back in the thread again. It literally was almost two months ago I remember being lynched from being newbie stupid against the expert veterans of the game.

    I have many regrets that are listed longer than the Great Wall of China. Playing gITP hunt afterwards taught me many things that I should have done first instead going heads up against expert veterans who can decimate new players and their "poor" logic, without knowing 80% of the unwritten rules. Sadly, I learned the very hard way and paid the price dearly for my team.

    Again, I am probably the only one here who is most glad that this is over.
     
  7. Boco

    Boco Member

    I don't know what your "intuition" is, but witches have a 0% win rate and you just said that you learned from this game that nerfing them was the right idea.

    Are you aware that the core of Mafia is "informed minority vs uninformed majority"? Do you know what splitting into two towns does? It neutralizes the information advantage scum has over innocents, dropping the 15% or so expected win rate for witch faction to less than 5%!

    Aren't witches supposed to have about 40% win rate?
     
  8. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    Haha. I called x1372 werewolf like a million years ago in deadchat

    EDIT: I looked over deadguy thread, I first voiced suspicions September 25th lol
     
  9. koopatroop

    koopatroop Well-Known Member

    Yeah that is the nice thing about deadchat, you don't have to hold back your intuitions.
     
  10. koopatroop

    koopatroop Well-Known Member

    Wait that was your conclusion from this game?! What about Spy should have the power of the witch he replaces. That seems more logical. Since in both meta and normal game spy is auto-revealed when a sac happens.

    Also you made some strong assertions about optimal play without backing them up. I happen to disagree with them.
     
  11. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Disregard this.
     
  12. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    ok, so stuff that pissed me off this game:

    -Fry somehow decided I was a werewolf

    -Town thinks Sotek can't have a pre-fabricated lie about the n1 events, even though those events were EXACTLY THE SAME as last game so it's not like it's out of left field for him

    -Spy's Maxwell Smart claim is the least believable thing ever, and the only reason non-idiots could believe Sotek even for a second

    -Ok, you know that post I made when I was alive about how town shouldn't coach certain power roles too much because it makes it too easy for witches to figure out equilibrium strategies to play around it. Well, THIS GOES 1000% FOR ANGELS AND ESPECIALLY NUN IN THIS VERSION JESUS CHRIST. Put another way, if witches are smarter than town, angels are smarter than all of you, so shut the hell up

    -One-shot angels is the worst idea ever in a game of this time frame; it requires far more attention than the other version. I just threw my hands up and gave up before too long, and I'm probably one of the more obsessive players

    For fun, some deadguy posts:

     
  13. Fry

    Fry Well-Known Member

    Fixed it for you
     
  14. koopatroop

    koopatroop Well-Known Member

    Actually what really threw town was Wobberjocky's fake claim but not naming any coven. From reading dead chat it seems like you guys had the same reaction. This was unfortunately bad spy play but was recovered by Garcia's excellent Acolyte play. He picked up bbjobs doubts and pursued them aggressively.

    I think x was too aggressively non-town this game (although it worked out for him). Luckily I was able to grab mayor from him. But he was obviously not-WW. WW lover seemed quite plausible, but I couldn't actually say anything. A game like this would be more rewarding if there was more incentive to share intuitions on roles. But its not.

    I only said something because I strongly suspected Chumpy to be WW (and on the other side of the river couldn't devour x). Because Lofo was so obviously not town it hurt, and he confirmed both x and lofo.
     
  15. koopatroop

    koopatroop Well-Known Member

    Considering the ratio of mayoral scum vs. mayoral town candidates, town did pretty good in that regard.
     
  16. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Yeah, I'd been working on a plan for our non-zero non-wizard win chances, and it needed some crazy things to happen to the gamestate, including three fake devours from townies.

    It- it wasn't going to work.
     
  17. koopatroop

    koopatroop Well-Known Member

    From my notes my top two game states were

    1. Milski WW, DragonChild BOD, Garcia Acolyte
    x1372 WW-Lover (unknown role but not Leeroy jenkins), Chumpy-WW). Lofobal is probably not spy.

    2. Dragonchild WW, Milski BOD, Garcia Acolyte,
    x1372 WW-Lover (unknown role but not Leeroy jenkins), Chumpy-WW). Lofobal is probably not spy.

    >>

    So how did the BOD die and we not notice lol?
    Chumpy, why were you so good at seeming like WW to me :p
     
  18. koopatroop

    koopatroop Well-Known Member

    Also why did no one correct me when I thought DragonChild started on the West side? I thought even DragonChild confirmed this ??
     
  19. koopatroop

    koopatroop Well-Known Member

    Ok I got thrown off when I saw this. And then I misread DragonChild's post

    <<
    I am originally an Icegotowner, and I am not a werewolf. I do not want to reveal at this time, but, obvious, I am not a werewolf. I am unsure who IS... I am willing to go with Milski until further notice. >>

    I must have replaced Icegotowner with Ultimatown.
     
  20. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

  21. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    bbobjs I know you were trying to seem neutral and not too pro-town so that witches wouldn't target you for nightkill, but, man, I had to jump through so many hoops to defend you
     
  22. Karrius

    Karrius Well-Known Member

    Comments on my play would be appreciated, as this was the first WH I survived a noticeable time on.
     
  23. Fry

    Fry Well-Known Member

    I was reading you as WW at one point (after I was dead, obv)
     
  24. bbobjs

    bbobjs Well-Known Member

    Yea, sorry I was so insanely paranoid this game. Being priest is a responsibly I don't enjoy and there were some irrelevant coincidental things that got stuck in my mind and made me think everyone knew who I was (Test role list bbobjs=Priest, Example Devour "bob the priest"). Once day 2 started I figured it was just over for me no matter what I did. I actually thought you were my acolyte for most of the game but got massively confused and paranoid when you voted to switch me. I figured the reason Sotek hadn't killed me yet is that he was Demon and had voodoo killed my acolyte in order to set me up. I wanted to switch some other random player and just not check that night but instead I moved and made a HUGE mistake (ended up not mattering since SPY was Demon). I just supposed it was better to seem crazy/maybe ww and take my information to the grave unless Town was about to make an obvious mistake.
     
  25. koopatroop

    koopatroop Well-Known Member

    When thinking about misplays (like major misplays) the only one I think who did was Zejety. Like there was no reason to target Sukaeto. He should have hit a random non-coven player. There were obviously bad plays in hindsight, but those don't count.

    I think Maris joined the coven so he could be sacced and give the witches two kills without protection. I am actually pretty sure we would have D2 lynched him. Ignoring spysassin I think this is a net advantage for witches. Maybe he should have rid it out to see if he could survive Day 2. That is, this move only makes sense if your really certain you can't survive Day 2.

    Now ChocPi thinks that Sotek and his coven messed up in saccing Maris. But I don't know. JW joining coven has no special powers, and if already strongly suspected should probably be killed. Worst is to just let him be lynched. If it works, feeding him nun claim is a good move, but not good if it doesn't work. And if he survives and spills the coven, well that is really bad for coven. I think I probably would have said hey claim nun and not sacced, but I could see why saccing makes sense.

    Now making the game work for sub-optimal play is always good, but I don't think this game degenerated because of terrible play, I think it degenerated because spyssasin is a degenerate game state.

    Also, Town unable to kill WW (except for DOB) is a recipe for unfun and disaster imo. Because WW lovers means WW survives to late game and typically DOB doesn't.

    However, I will say I did like the river structure. I thought that was a nice touch. It would be better in a faster game where I can remember who is on what side.
     
  26. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    I assume removing sac bonuses includes removing assassin, which is a start. I agree that assassin contributes a large amount to degeneracy (enchantress is almost as bad too). I still hate spy and don't know what it would take to make me give it yet another chance at this point, but spy and werewolf both result in an unacceptable number of "futile" gamestates that lead to the throwing up of hands
     
  27. Sotek

    Sotek Super Moderator Staff Member

    Spysassin: bleh. sacrifice: bleh.
    assassin: pretty bleh.
    enchantress: ok imo, esp with judge. There should always be at least two ways to eliminate all guys and it's ok if one is expensive, as long as it's feasible in an otherwise-ok gamestate.

    ww devouring lover is a problem, though, it makes ww lovers pretty much a pure good for him, but not being able to is basically stupid, so ...
     
  28. link6616

    link6616 Well-Known Member

    I still don't like the ww power...

    But I did love having ww chat, if I'd just been the ww by myself, I would have eaten probably the same day as wheezy revealed...

    I understand the problem of mass role claim it is supposed to solve, but in the 2 games I played against it, I found it super annoying (you still shouldn't reveal as that helps witches too though) and playing as the ww it DOES make the game more interesting as you have to keep a good eye everyone, as knowing their roles is your only way to win...

    But It seems, as always, the core ww tatic is to slip under the radar for most of the game like I managed to halfway into the game, and stay there until ready... There are no benefits of devouring early which means essentially until 5/6 town roles ar revealed and nomable, along with the dob dead you are a vampire hunter...

    I like the idea of giving the ww a set amount of lives, however I DO think the dob being a ww killing tool is good...

    If you have the ww 4 lives, and said the dob takes 2 lives of anything he kills, add in a hunter role that helps search for the ww (And possibly help kill quicker)
     
  29. link6616

    link6616 Well-Known Member

    But if you guys lynch me, even if I don't die, lover would still die... But I could still eat him anyway,,,, but eating lovers can't eat each other is kinda arbitrary
     
  30. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    can't eat lovers makes a lot of sense though, why would I cannibalize someone i was in love with
     
  31. Sotek

    Sotek Super Moderator Staff Member

    So, here's the problem.

    Maris joined. We had spy narrowed down to two people.

    no matter what we lost d2 to spyclaim from cornered spy. we already knew that was coming.
    Otherwise we might've tried not saccing. But it was either "let the spy out us 100%, or go for the 50% shot". so, uh.

    50% shot failed. when witches get too many witches confirmed to one another in any way at all, the witches instantly lose. Sacrifice or no sacrifice. No matter what. Spy is gonna claim rather than die in that scenario, so the ONLY hope is to kill spy before he talks.

    Spy is broken because he will never go down silently.
     
  32. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    all of this

    the closest we got to an exception was when spysassin resulted in a game state so degenerate that coven was able to math out the spy without spy even having to say or do anything, which is absurd
     
  33. ChumpChange

    ChumpChange Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I don't think it's possible to say 'but Spy works in real life' because this is already so far removed from RL games.
     
  34. sukaeto

    sukaeto New Member

    /me facepalms

    I have a better idea: how about you just PM the names of coven to EVERYONE when you give them their role. You can change the name of the game to "Witchfound" or "Townwon"

    To everyone else: I'm sincerely sorry for being such a jackass toward the end of the game. I just wanted it to end (and thought I might amuse myself in the process.)
     
  35. Zejety

    Zejety Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I apologize for my misplay.
    At least I can say that I would not have targeted Koopa so in the end, killing sukaeto was better than killing an innocent (I suppose?).
    But I admit that I had lost track of the game some time ago. The combination of new mechanics, meta-hunt and the game's length were too much for me to handle.
     
  36. x1372

    x1372 Active Member

    Yeah, as much time as I spent focusing on keeping the WW in the best possible case, its clear some changes have to be made to make this game work.

    Will be interesting to see what the covens and angels were saying though, before it turned into "well shit we lose."

    Interesting that Acidile WAS the spy. I DID have a plant to counteract the potential spy threat (me, Link, two witches can block 3 town and spy from mailing him) if the witches DID NOT sacrifice that final night and the DoB DID NOT hit a witch. It would have also not revealed which of us was the werewolf and prevented Leeroy from 100% ganking us too.

    Good game guys. I'll be quite interested to see the rules changes Chocolate Pi instates for the next one.

    EDIT (ha, legal now!) - me being a MAGIC USER who was IN LOVE WITH WOLF LINK made me laugh when I realized - I AM MIDNA!
     
  37. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Witches are never allowed to win ever.

    (Witches are never allowed to win ever.)
     
  38. link6616

    link6616 Well-Known Member

    I forgot the midna thing... that was cool...

    But hey X, we won according to pi's initial end game post.

    Yay! Let's party, I want some food...

    Also, lovers being able to eat eachother makes a lot of sense... think of it as the natural extension of oral sex
     
  39. AN148

    AN148 New Member

    Link: No. Just no.

    I still don't believe I voted three witches for mayors. My first time playing and I get those odds in a period of 5 days on d1. I wished I was coached, hell I wished I was the spy, at least I would have a team to go to or support on those odds! But nope, that I had to learn all of this the hard way! :(
     
  40. koopatroop

    koopatroop Well-Known Member

    AN148 I don't you think you misplayed that badly. Or at all really. What is a good fake claim? Not one that one of the lovers has, but you can't know that.

    Now your coven friends kind of misplayed since Costa, Acidile, and Lofobal were like at the top of everyone's scum list D2.
     
  41. koopatroop

    koopatroop Well-Known Member

    How did you have spy narrowed down to two people btw?
     
  42. koopatroop

    koopatroop Well-Known Member

    Oh right forgot you voted for yourself. That is never a good idea lol.
     
  43. Sotek

    Sotek Super Moderator Staff Member

    tells and stuff. Stew was super-not-spy, and Arkaal and I managed to engage in a secret handshake, basically.

    Then: Wobberjacky the assassin who was opposed to saccing due to fear of spysassin, and Maris the JW-who-joined-N1.
     
  44. AN148

    AN148 New Member

    @Koopatroop: Yeah, well that was really bad day, which now I (And still am suffering for the next 300 days of my life since then and another 200 after that). Lynching myself was the least of my priorities that day, thought I distinctively remember being from 1 to 8-9? in a given period of 6.5 hours!

    Lynching myself is one of my regrets, but surprisingly not the biggest.
     
  45. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    I think this is ok but this wording seems a bit mean to players! In a game with villager-aligned spy, this probably seems true.


    Here's my opinion! It's okay if kingmaker requires a chain of steps involving one or more people. That way, unless players are deliberately trying for it, the chance of accidental kingmaker is rare.

    The problem comes with spy. Spy is not robust at all. Good spy = fun game. Bad spy, or even average spy = lame game. It's not robust because spy is a complicated role that requires high effort, is easily misplayed, AND has game-ruining effects when misplayed.

    Well, there was a small case of misunderstanding of spy rules, I remember...

    The easiest way to increase player's intuition about how to play a role or to use a game mechanic - an example! Examples are fun to read, and they also become part of your memory that you draw on when thinking 'how should I use this'

    No shit!
     
  46. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Costa made some poor choices, like drawing tons of attention to me. Then I tried to cover for him, then acidile tried to draw some fire to cover for us. I don't think acidile or I misplayed, but eh, I don't care at this point.
     
  47. Chocolate Pi

    Chocolate Pi Well-Known Member

    Costa played bad in the sense that everyone plays bad some games, like ordinary things that can go wrong. Perhaps there are several things he could do better in general, but his play wasn't flawed and not particularly interesting to me. :p
     
  48. Sotek

    Sotek Super Moderator Staff Member

    Here are some skills that seem relevant to witchhunt, some of which I see people missing, etc.

    1) Persuasion. Scum needs this for obvious reasons. Town needs it when they come counter to scum persuasion, and when they want to obfuscate scum about roles.
    2) Reading. This is not exactly the counter to persuasion - it's picking up information about a persion from their actions, which tends to HELP townies with persuading you and hurts witches at persuading you.
    3) Evaluation. This is the skill relevant to figuring out what the hell is going on from the pieces of information you have, as well as figuring out what actions to take.

    The thing is: Evaluation in WH is hard. The "obvious" skills are Persuasion and Reading - that's what leads to deception and stuff. Evaluation is not always even obvious to be relevant.

    So, here's the thing about spy. If he has non-exceptional evaluation and has worse persuasion than some of the other witches ... he's going to be revealing! He'll be pressured, claim, gg. If he has the WORST persuasion, maybe witches sac him before he can reveal, but if he has even half-decent reading he might well be able to tell that witches are closing in on figuring him out and then just reveal.

    He pretty much has to have exceptional evaluation to even think about going down silently, because it is SUPER counterintuitive and strange. This is the biggest spy problem.

    Evaluation is a problem in other ways, too, because new players can see persuasion and reading, but they often can't see they're bad at evaluation.

    so: Costa engaged in poor persuasion. That is "bad" play. Wobberjacky did a huge persuasion fail too, but a couple people managed evaluation wins to save town from falling for my lies. (admittedly, my lies were such that it /wasn't that hard/ to evaluate-win out of them, but it basically took bbob and garcia to work it out enough, imo.) I'm probably about average persuasion, maybe? average reads, maybe. above-average eval, eval is my strength. (see: g1. gitp2, even if I did take down the spy. <:D) eval is hard though. and deciphering people's actions is even harder than the simple combination of reading and eval.
     
  49. garcia1000

    garcia1000 World Champion Staff Member

    Actually bbobjs I think checked you N1 so he knew and I knew as soon as he posted, but we had to pretend that we were working it out with logic instead so we didn't blow our covers

    But, yeah! Spy is hard for the reason you mentioned!
     
  50. koopatroop

    koopatroop Well-Known Member

    Yeah I didn't really mean to say misplayed, because I can't pinpoint what happened.

    Acidile kind of didn't play. But Spy is one of those roles that can make you want to do that. But it was obvious not standard acidile play.

    But yeah you got totally drawn into things, whatever happened. Reading witch chat it seems you guys realized that only sukaeto went under the radar. Also it was interesting that acidile was the one who was sacced simply because he wasn't posting.
     

Share This Page