WitchHunt: Keeping ChocoPi's innovations

Discussion in 'Forum Games' started by Archon Shiva, Feb 6, 2011.

  1. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    The way I understand it, ChocoPi has mainly brought three new things to Witchunt:

    1. The Spy: A non-witch player who is aware of the coven, and can reveal it to the other faction(s).

    2. GAs: The ability for dead players to influence the game.

    3. The Werewolf: A scum role designed to make claiming unsafe.

    Although CPi seems t have always used all three, personalized witchhunts by other mods have been attempted (and are still being attempted) that ditched one or more of these elements. Most people seem to agree that spy ruins the game for scum, and that werewolf is, generally speaking, rather boring. The jury is still out on GAs.

    What I have in mind right now is to design a game that would, hopefully, serve as a prof of concept for ChocoPi's three innovations - I would love to prove conclusively that it is possible to work a spy into a proper game, for one thing.

    I believe WH5 clearly demonstrates that an abundance of very powerful abilities tends to stop the game from actually being played, so I'm going to try and lean the other way. Previous games also demonstrated that rules that create randomness in the starting gamestate are problematic, so no "lost" roles due to spy, lovers, or whatever.

    My proposed spy mechanic makes the spy low-power, as well as the counter to him. I accept that we would have to play without ChadMiller.
    Spy: Gets the link to coven chat. Not told who the coven are (coven is told names in PMs, but not roles), and everybody uses false names there, although they must be consistent.

    Siren (witch): Each night, may whisper the name of a player in coven chat. If that player has access to coven chat (and isn't the siren himself), he dies.

    So, the spy's list narrows down as time goes forward, and if Siren just randomly names all the top (non-coven) players early, the spy could come out with that info, revealing a list of important town players.

    WW+sacrifice (very early idea): Coven sacrifices one member, and posts a player/role list. Every correct match dies. I am mostly asking just how ridiculous this is.

    GAs (early idea): Coven in GAs can reveal themselves to get THREE votes henceforth. These are always no protect. This robs winning town of GAs, basically.

    It is assumed for now that basic roles such as priest, aco, necro and demon work roughly as usual.

    What's interesting, what's salvageable, and what's broken beyond repair?
  2. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    It seems a little inappropriate to talk about this while WH5 is still going on. At the very least the comments I want to make are not appropriate.
  3. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    is WH5 really going on, though? I think there's one night action until CPi can just declare a winner or something?

    Siren seems problematic: Best choice is to never use your power, as long as witches don't play terribly and reveal who they actually are to spy?

    Sacrifice: Theoretically it sounds good. In practice, it feels like it will kill the newbs, and still not let witches win against our experienced players?
  4. Golden119

    Golden119 Member

    Spy - If Witches always murder the previous Siren target, then Spy has no mechanical info (this seems ok as a default scum strategy) - now Spy is low enough power that witches don't need Siren. But take Siren away and Spy gets his free town list. Seems tricky, although nice concept.

    How about ... keep Siren, but Spy can Check a target each night (he has much more info to work with, but at cost of no Acolyte and Siren vulnerability). If this is too powerful, then add a 1-in-6 or whatever chance of receiving "no info" as a result. Demon knowledge or Haunt/Blocking would also keep this ability in check.

    Sacrifice - mechanism to stop mass town reveal, not really expected to be used?

    GAs - Sounds ok but isn't a GA-witch issue is that they have nothing to do? This doesn't address that. With no Spy knowing the whole coven, a Witch-GA group with the power to do something to aid their faction (Block/Haunt, Protect, whatever) would give them a reason to keep involved.
  5. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    In keeping with the idea that a game is a series of interesting decisions, Siren is meant to be a sort of low-risk silencer, but there's still a net loss to calling out the wrong name.

    Siren's target dies at sunrise. Witches can still NK last night's siren pick, and it's not like Spy will want to claim just to name three town players.

    If spy gets a check (I really want to go for the lowest useful power level), I'd say he needs to match a coven name to a player name: "match ChadMiller as Daemonius" to get a result - otherwise he's just a better priest. Not exactly weak, that.

    I'd like more opinions on the sacrifice mechanic. Sotek, how likely would you be to call for sacrifice to get a mass-kill on N1?
  6. Sotek

    Sotek Super Moderator Staff Member

    In that version? Pfffft no.

    That said I suggest giving each witch a town role - either that doesn't exist for them to claim (ala spy in wh's) or that they have the powers of.

    and then just not have a kill-by-role guy.
  7. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    This might work - vanilla Mafia, as far as I understand, is effectively this. However, it goes squarely against one of my design principles - no randomness in the starting gamestate. The thing I disliked most about Sotekhunt was that any single town role could, in fact, not be town at all. We also got the worst case situation of it, which didn't help.

    Okay, if the few people intervening don't jump all-out at stuff that's blatantly broken, it might be worth spending the time to come up with a complete ruleset using these spy/sacrifice rules. Maybe after Fryhunt or the next one...
  8. Arkaal

    Arkaal Member

    Totally my idea. :p

    The design behind this idea was that you would have some number of "power town" roles. (Priest, Acolyte). These would always be town.

    Then you would have a much longer list (ideally ~2/3 of the roles) that are mechanically weaker roles (Vampire Hunter, Wizard). The witches would be drawn from these roles - so each witch has a "free" fakeclaim. So while there is some randomness in the initial gamestate, none of the key town roles are going to be witches, so you aren't going to have a repeat of Sotekhunt, where a crucial info role wasn't town.

    My initial thought was that witches would not receive the powers of their role (except the Cultist, whose witch power would to be keep his town power).
  9. Arkaal

    Arkaal Member

    I will say that I do like this better than the WW/Vampire/Silencer anti-claim method.
  10. Patashu

    Patashu New Member

    How about the mod iterates down the list of player - roles, and after three mismatches the killing ends? So you don't get free lucky shots in the dark against people you have no clue about
  11. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    +1 for Patashu. Stolen.

    Arkaal: One problem is, "significant" roles will vary depending on how play turns out, and with each ruleset being tested for a total of one game... Sotekhunt made spiritualist a pivotal role, garciahunt relied on judge for two days, and WH5 made cupid a key role.

    I'm not saying the approach is wrong, either. I'd definitely play in it, and it just may be the best solution to most of our problems -- but it goes against my stated design goals in the OP, so not in my ruleset.
  12. aerinon

    aerinon Member

    Here's a couple ideas from Tinyhunt for GAs that I thought I'd repost here.

    If protection succeeds, town is not informed of the target of the nightkill. Just that was no murder.

    Ghost Haunt: Dead witches get ghost chat ala WH5 but try to guess the role of the protect target to make protection fail. Spiritualist should probably get the info on ghost guesses as well. Also makes dead witches want to participate more in deception in GA chat. Might make GAs too conservative though. I haven't got any feedback on this idea yet.
  13. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    If witches are in GA chat how would they ever mis-guess who is going to be protected?

    I like the change to protection though.
  14. Ithaldir

    Ithaldir Member

    Not who, their role. That'd prevent a dead Aco from automatically claiming and saying "protect RandomPlayer123! He's the Priest!"
  15. Logo

    Logo Well-Known Member

    Ah sorry my mistake, sounds good then!
  16. Archon Shiva

    Archon Shiva Well-Known Member

    That one is very, very likely to go in. I'd consider PMing the target about it, though, and remove spiritualist. It'd be fun to have people claim "I was the one who survived the NK!" and see if they get believed (since witches could skip an NK and claim that to screw with town).

    Your ghosts idea with roles actually sounds interesting, but I'm still too blue-sky about GAs to settle on anything like that.

    Ghosts: How atrocious would haunting be if it allowed ghosts to PICK the result instead of "blocked"? Maybe they'd need to choose very specifically, so ms would get suspicious when he gets "Good" as a result. I'd consider letting the spiritualist get haunting targets.
  17. aerinon

    aerinon Member

    That's okay. Just thought I'd throw it out there for you game designers to chew on.

    This is a minor improvement, I think. Spiritualist would almost have to get haunt info in this case because: "Well Priest you say that person checked evil on n3 but the ghosts were haunting that person that night so he's really innocent..." And this makes makes a nice play for witches as well. (Especially if spiritualist is dead.)

    Not sure it helps the "dead witches are bored" problem.
  18. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    I don't like the ghosts picking check result idea. Blocking is already pretty powerful (people in the other game seemed to think it's automatically suspicious, but those people are wrong; ghosts should haunt likely check targets regardless of which side they're on)

    I do like the idea of not announcing GA bounces.
  19. Sotek

    Sotek Super Moderator Staff Member

    If I am ghost and am uncertain which of two guys to haunt, I will be more likely to pick the witch.

    Likewise, if I am priest and I check a guy as blocked, this will raise my suspicion of him! (outside of like, N1 checking Chad.) It won't raise it much because it was already high (or I wouldn't've checked him) but it will raise it slightly.
  20. Claytus

    Claytus Well-Known Member

    Is this GA stuff really worth all the trouble? I feel like the "reward" of dying is that you can finally talk openly... dump your info to open dead guys, maybe crazy predictions, basically be an observer at that point.

    Like, being forced to play these little mini-intrigue games, that have a minimal chance to cause a tiny effect on the game... it's just awful. Can we do away with them entirely?
  21. sage

    sage Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I think a proper spectator room for dead people is preferable for online games.
  22. ChadMiller

    ChadMiller Well-Known Member

    yeah, this is what I was getting at

    what do people think of having the traditional "doctor" role (who can protect any target but self)? That's another role that can be powerful but also becomes completely useless if trueclaimed.
  23. aerinon

    aerinon Member

    Hmm. That's a good question. I don't know. It sucks to join a game and then become a observer real fast. I like the idea of dead guys passing info / affecting the game still, but OTOH I guess that doesn't float everyone's boat.

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