Worst Matchups in Beta Rules

Discussion in 'Yomi: Fighting Card Game' started by CrystalChaos, Aug 2, 2012.

  1. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    If anyone knows a bad matchup (between any two characters in base and expansion (3.5)), please post it here so we can test it and fix it if it is agreed to be problematic.

    Having actually played the matchup at least once is preferable, but not required. If you just think one could be a bad matchup, you can say that too. Try to explain why you think it is bad and your level of experience in the matchup.

    known issues (expansion beta 3.5, favored character listed first):
    Gloria vs. Lum
    Gloria vs. Onimaru

    potential issues (expansion beta 3.5, favored character listed first):
    Jaina vs. Zane
    Degrey vs. Onimaru
    Argagarg vs. BBB
    Grave vs. BBB
    Valerie vs. Vendetta
    Persephone vs. BBB
    Setsuki vs. BBB
    Midori vs. Gloria
    Troq vs. Gloria
    Midori vs. Quince
    Jaina vs. Gwen
    Menelker vs. Gwen
    Jaina vs. Vendetta
    Vendetta vs. Degrey
    Geiger vs. Vendetta
    Lum vs. Vendetta
    Rook vs. Gloria
    Grave vs. Troq
    BBB vs. Rook
    -Y- and Lofobal like this.
  2. Juushichi

    Juushichi Well-Known Member

    Vendetta vs Geiger, probably.
  3. Choke Artist

    Choke Artist Well-Known Member

    Any character with a counter vs. BBB (especially Arg).

    Basically makes BBB try very hard to not play normals.
  4. the-cap

    the-cap Well-Known Member

    Gloria vs. Grapplers is tough (maybe not rook)
    1. High health
    2. All have an attack faster than her fastest (Mid/Troq have 2)
    -Dragon form is downright terrifying for her so mid block/throw until he gets there with no pressure
    3. Better throw game (obviously but the point is they attack and throw better than Gloria)
  5. Maph

    Maph New Member

    Quince vs Midori is pretty rough. Pretty good back and forth until Mid gets DF. I only played a couple matches, but in both of them Midori had DF up pretty much the whole time because it takes so long to knock him out of it. The best you can hope for is to try and Flagstone Tax all of his facecards away. It might have been a case of exceptionally good draws on his side, but my draws were pretty good too. Not sure yet if its really a "problem" matchup, but probably worth a look.
  6. Ryker

    Ryker Well-Known Member

    Known issues: Vendetta vs. the cast.
  7. Juushichi

    Juushichi Well-Known Member

    Jaina vs Vendetta.
  8. Ryker

    Ryker Well-Known Member

    Then save Q and hit him with something. Midori is quite possibly the single most straight forward character in the game. It takes a little Yomi, but DForm is never the end all. This is not on a similar level as the other characters being pointed out. It is a bad MU, but it is not a very bad MU.
    Targie likes this.
  9. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Can I get a why with some of these? I'll have some testing time in the future so I'd like to know what i'm looking for when I do these and what specifically makes the matchup TOO weak.
  10. Ryker

    Ryker Well-Known Member

    Vendy has fundamental problems that lead to checkmate situations and an inability to threaten the opponent that result from a combination of the lack of profit you obtain from almost all successful combats and a lack of speed which prevents Vendy from gaining the momentum/control over a match he is designed to obtain.
  11. Arghy

    Arghy Active Member

    I, uh, could you rephrase that in shorter words and sentences?
  12. Mililani

    Mililani Well-Known Member

    Ven is slow and weak and stuff.
  13. Degrey v Onimaru is a problem for Onimaru. His weak normal game and relatively slow attacks make it easy for Degrey to bully him with normals and run out his few weak throws, and then just A dodge until Oni gets bored. PCP and Pilebunker are safer than usual (since Oni wants to throw high normals), to boot.

    much later edit: Gloria does basically the same thing to Oni, by spamming recurred dodges, plus he has a lot of trouble knocking off Healing Sphere.
    DeevGrape likes this.
  14. Snail Racer

    Snail Racer Active Member

    Gwen vs. Jaina, according to Obscura's post in the "Gwen" thread (post #59). The following reason is a direct quote from that post:
    There are other MU's on this post, but this MU stood out to me the most b/c Gwen v. Jaina, unlike both Gwen v. Valerie and Gwen v. Midori, has not improved throughout the Expansion Beta's new versions (the analysis was based on Yomi Exp. beta 2.0). In fact, Gwen's AA is now worse than her AA in Yomi Exp. beta 2.0.

    EDIT: Menelker vs. Gwen - Because these two are similar to each other, I believe Menelker's advantages over Gwen may stand out in his favor after the 8th Draw Phase when Gwen has at most 69 HP w/o Gloria's Remedies.

    EDIT 2: Onimaru vs. Rook - Though Rook can beat a predicted C.W. Soldiers attack (like every other character), he is the only character that is unable to remove attached C.W. Soldiers on Onimaru if and only if Onimaru uses only attacks for the rest of the match. This may lead to Onimaru's strategy on Rook being based on attaching as many CWS as possible at one time, and then spamming face cards (sometimes with Final Authority) until one of the attacks hits. If Oni is losing face cards, he could attack with his normals (esp. his G. Armor attack) to gain more cards and power-up for A's using cards w/o attacks on them (like his 2's). This doesn't necessarily say bad MU, but this character-exclusive problem deserves attention.
  15. Choke Artist

    Choke Artist Well-Known Member

    Q spam results in a very quick trip to the Dreadlands for Jaina.
    Scarbo likes this.
  16. Scarbo

    Scarbo Well-Known Member

    I played a lot of Gwen in 2.0, and she felt advantaged against Jaina. Turn 2 Dreadlands Portal shuts down Q spam very effectively. Gwen is weaker now, but I doubt that changed much.
    Snail Racer likes this.
  17. Snail Racer

    Snail Racer Active Member

    Well, Obscura, I recognized this quote being based on an outdated version of Gwen since before I made my post. However, I still mentioned your post because Gwen's dodges, K, and AA still function the same way they functioned back then. Also, I thank you for still recognizing some bad qualities in that MU.

    Scarbo, I appreciate your input in that MU. I'll keep that strategy in mind whenever I test Gwen v. Jaina.
  18. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    I played a couple games of this with Kawaiiness just now.
  19. Choke Artist

    Choke Artist Well-Known Member

    BBB v BBB

    Obviously 5-5, but I think it's considered far and away the worst MU to play.
    deluks917 and Juushichi like this.
  20. Mililani

    Mililani Well-Known Member

    I played this with Scarbo's Dog a while back. I had fun, you'll have to ask him what he thought of it though.
  21. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    I played a couple games vs deluks's Geiger and that matchup seemed ok. Certainly not a blow-out. Ven has 2, strong dodges to answer spirals, fast throws that can be a hassle, acro to deal with cycloid and help on critical turns. Innate also matters more than usual here, assuming it works vs Js, giving Ven some extra cards and potentially a little damage. Geiger has strong post-acro options, though. Ven must save dodges for post-acro to handle spiral-ticks. Geiger also can really dish out the damage if he does land a "real" hit, so Ven's gotta be careful.
  22. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Also I played vs CC's DeGrey with Ven yesterday and he beat me up pretty bad. He was really outplaying me though. I'll need to play that one more, I think.
  23. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    Ok, moving out to potentially bad.
  24. Ryker

    Ryker Well-Known Member

    Uh, what? 2 is not a good answer at all. The moment you show two, I know it's there and I have stronger dodge options, K, and AA to paste it. All of these options neuter your two and once you lose it, you have no guarantee that you will obtain another. Blocking 2 is DEFINITELY a win for me because Geiger with cards is the absolute worst situation for Ven because my buttons are better than yours.

    Your dodge options are not strong unless you have the highly telegraphed AAA and even if you do, then it's out of your hand and I don't have to deal with it anymore. To top it off, you only have 8 functioning dodges if your two poke is that important to you. You talk about how you have dodges to deal with Geiger, but in the SAME POST you talk about how you "MUST" save dodges for post Acro situations.

    Assuming you do knock me down, you still do not gain significant control over the game because of K/AA or even burst (Ven's damage is so low gold bursting is not a bad option at all). You have to make way too precise a read. You can brave AA on the ability to throw Acro, but, honestly, I can waste AA against Acro in order to stand myself up for the incoming combat because Ven has serious problems knocking you down. I don't even have to throw cycloid if I keep K.

    Then there's Temporal Distortion. Ven gets checkmated by TD a LOT and has literally no option that outspeeds the attack side of J after you Acro and VERY few options (burst and aces) that beat Time Spiral Hurricane on KD. You must play a 50-50 with dodge and attack where being wrong means being dead and you have to have one of your very limited dodges to do so.

    I love Deluks. I like Deluks' Geiger, but I overlife perfected him twice with DeGrey. I believe this was mostly due to him having little idea how the MU operates and I doubt he understands the Geiger-Vendetta MU well enough to abuse it. Especially if the only time you gave him to figure it out was "a couple of games."

    Unwinnable? No. A blow-out? Yes.
  25. Ryker

    Ryker Well-Known Member

    But Quonce vs. Quince.
  26. Mililani

    Mililani Well-Known Member

    Worst matchup to play?

    It seems that you are not a truishly true man of truth after all :(
  27. Ryker

    Ryker Well-Known Member

    That is not play Targie. That is work, that is justice, that is the true pursuit of truth and the betterment of one's self.

    Quonce vs. Quince is not something to be played.
  28. major_shiznick

    major_shiznick Well-Known Member

    You think? That is interesting. I have played at least 10 matches of my Vendetta vs. the-cap's Geiger, and it has mostly been okay. I am curious how many of your points are observations or just theorycraft. This is not to say you are wrong, just that my experience doesn't jive with your claims.

    You are correct that blocking Ven's 2 is a win for Geiger, but showing 2 does help deter Geiger from dropping early J and Q. 2 poke is mostly an early game play for Vendetta, so the threat of eating AA is not major, especially given that getting early AA Acro'd is big card advantage for Vendetta, because it really eats up cards. K is just like any other DP threat for Ven, which he deals with either using dodges or block+hitback. If he eats it, well, that sucks, but it's not game-ending.

    I disagree that Vendetta's dodge options are bad. Dodging into a K or normal throw are perfectly fine for him. It is not about Ven dealing lots of damage out of dodge, so I'm not sure it's so important that Geiger deals more damage with his. While Geiger is knocked down, he is unlikely to play AA/Gold Burst, because getting those Acro'd is pretty bad payoff for him (maybe not the Gold Burst as much; I'm not sure on that). Yes, those are much more dangerous after an Acro play, but the main things Vendetta is looking to Acro out of in the first place are AA and TD combos.

    You are correct that Geiger takes major advantage of Vendetta if Ven is KD. This is true of most of the cast, though. TD makes this much tougher, true, but I think that Ven can just attack or dodge and Acro if need be. That said, TD is definitely heavy favor for Geiger, and KD TD will result in some checkmates. This also happens against Arg at times (thought it can be anyone if their hand is bad enough). It is a part of this matchup that should probably be addressed, but it hasn't been an enormous influence in games I've played.

    I think a big goal for Vendetta in this matchup is to keep Geiger's hand small to mitigate the AA opportunities and TD threats. I am not super-scared of Geiger as Vendetta. Maybe I should be?
  29. deluks917

    deluks917 Yomi League 1 Champion

    Ryker you should really play lofo's Vendetta as Geiger.

    In theory and practice I am not really sure why geiger would crush the mu. However I definitely could just be misplaying.
  30. Ryker

    Ryker Well-Known Member

    I've played Juu's extensively and have played both Choke and CC in the MU as well. The only one that has come close to beating me or even contending was Choke.

    Lofo's explanation of the MU placed so much emphasis on two and dodge and there simply aren't enough of those cards in the deck. If Ven draws well, he can play a 6-4 Geiger's favor. But if he doesn't draw well, the MU is easily 7-3. Not drawing well can mean drawing two 2s, a K, an Acro, and two more dodges that aren't your 2 over the course of the game, which is still a fair spread of your options.

    Major, I do not normally like your posts because I normally vehemently disagree. I still vehemently disagree, but I see a thought process I can address. That being said, I do like you even if I hate your posts.

    Again, my credentials are posted above. A lot of this started out as theory craft because I theory craft Yomi a lot. Since Juu is interested in Vendetta, I theory craft Ven a lot, but then I put it into practice and it does work.

    Showing two deters you from running a J out on a suicide mission, but it doesn't stop you from dealing with the two. You, like Vendetta, only have an effective eight dodges, but you also have K, AA, and burst to deal with it. However, that being said, you can still throw him blocking/dodging and your seven covers all his throws that aren't seven. You can still hang out a Q and if you read throw and it covers block. You're Geiger, for God's sake, just because you're winning doesn't mean you can afford to play scared. When two is revealed, you have to treat Ven like a normal character, but it really is the only card in his deck sans burst or multiple Aces that make you respect him, so burning resources in order to get rid of his 2 is not a waste of resources at all.

    In order to validly run this sort of mix-up wrinkle in your poking game, you need a dodge to back your two and I mean one that isn't your two. You need a K on top of your dodge in order to stay ahead of Geiger in card advantage and have meaningful damage behind your dodge. And then you have to make the read.

    And all of this is stacked on top of the fact that running Ven 2 into Geiger block for a few turns favors Geiger more than it favors Ven. It's a read situation, but the read is far and away stacked in Geiger's favor.

    Dodging into a K is fine, great, dandy. Means you have to have a K, of which you only have four. Dodging into normal throw without a K behind it is much less meaningful.

    Ven not being about dealing damage out of dodge is all well and good, but at the end of the day, you have to deal 90 damage to Geiger and dodge is not how you're going to get it, so Geiger has to respect it much less.

    It's not important for Geiger to deal more damage, I was parodying Lofo saying that Ven had powerful dodge options, which he really doesn't. The most powerful option he gets is KD which isn't extremely powerful. It's ironic because both of the characters are based around KD game in this MU (Blah blah, poke character not KD. Not my fault all your reasonably threatening options come from KD and not your poke game), but Geiger's is better and he gets so much more out of it.

    I disagree wholeheartedly. It's like saying Geiger shouldn't throw AA at Jaina for fear of UPs. You've only got four Acro's and playing Acro doesn't even get you out of jail free. I've got 90 health you've got to go through with subpar options. You've got 75 (iirc) that I can still take a fifth out of on the Acro combat next turn. You only get four and fear of hitting them removes so many options. If I have a read that will allow me to make you stare down the barrel of AA on an Acro turn, I'll make you face it, but if I have a read that calls for AA, I throw AA.

    You can sub in Gold Burst for any of the AAs in that sentence.

    As far as card advantage goes after throwing AA, don't throw it if it ruins your hand. You need no more than five cards to make Ven really sweat and Ven is not good at controlling your hand size given how he must rely on poking your block. You can land plenty of blocks and even a handful of Kantrip normals. Your RnDs can't be countered which make even small hands dangerous and your TDs will recur spirals that are REALLY good in this MU. Being wrong sucks, but being scared gives Ven a fighting chance he doesn't deserve.

    It's funny because Ven is supposed to capitalize on you being KDed.

    No one's arguing the TD is really damn bad for Ven in this MU, so I'm not going to touch on it more than to simply say that TD is what pushes this MU from a bad (a counter MU about as bad as Geiger vs. Rook) to a terribad MU.

    I think that Ven's current tool kit is simply not threatening enough to do so over the long haul of the match. Ven has low life, Geiger has high life. Ven needs to poke, but doesn't have the cards to deter Geiger from blocking when he wants. Ven gets low pay-out, Geiger gets high pay-out.

    I feel the MU is at least Rook-Lum bad. Unwinnable? No. Really bad? Yes.

    Feel free to question anything else. I'm game to test the MU more if more people want to play it.

    Juu has ideas on how to buff Ven and keep his current business agenda. I don't know if he's posted it yet, because he was running it by Scarbo an hour ago who suggested another idea that I REALLY like for Ven. I love the changes to him. I think he remains a bad char, but becomes operable in the game (think original Yomi DeGrey/Midori tier). Give it a look when it's posted. Advise, question, critique, and SUPPORT it. There's nothing in there that goes against what Sirlin has let me know he wants from that character unless it was vastly changed in the last hour.
  31. Ryker

    Ryker Well-Known Member

    I also think Kawaiiness is pretty wrong about Ven-Val, another that I've played a lot, but I'll get into that when I have time to make a similarly large write-up (assuming changes haven't already taken place rendering the point moot).
  32. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    You are mistaken, I am not placing much emphasis on the 2, it was an off-hand post. If you think I'm saying "mash 2 that's great vs Geiger" you are misunderstanding. I was merely listing a tool Ven has in the matchup.

    His dodges are definitely strong if you have a K. That's 9 damage + KD for 1 card, similar efficiency to Flash Gear, and better vs block. The KD gives a strong mixup.

    I am not making extreme statements or whatever you seem to be reading, I'm merely stating some basic interactions of the matchup.

    As for your other claim about 7-3 or whatever, if we played 10 games, you and I, how many would you expect to win? 7? 8?
    If you are using lots of fast moves on wakeup, I'm fine with that. I'm not sure what this "serious problems knocking you down" is, I have lots of opportunities to go for the loop. Throws, 7, K all KD, which is plenty. I can afford to be a bit cautious when going for the loop, if needed. I might not acro AA, it depends how late the game is, whether I think you have more As, whether I think you'll follow up with As if I facedown. In any case, I'm pretty happy if you are burning aces on wakeup instead of saving them for TD.
    He had the exact same number of games to figure out the matchup as I did. I'm not sure what that DeGrey thing is about, it seems neither here nor there.
    Scarbo likes this.
  33. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Sorry, missed a part.
    I think your claim that he gets "checkmated" "a LOT" is ridiculous. Maybe you and I have different definitions? How many times do you claim that will happen in 10 games?

    Ven doesn't need to outspeed J post-acro, he just needs an answer, and dodge works fine. He doesn't even need to necessarily save dodges for acro, the threat of dodge can be enough to make Geiger think.

    Acro/super/burst are all fine vs Geiger AA. I'm not sure where you are getting all these aces that you can afford to meaty with that while also using cycloid to get out of mixups, and I think you're exaggerating about his limited dodges.
    Scarbo likes this.
  34. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Oh, and I should state my bias. I don't trust theory crafting for Yomi and I have always stated as much.
  35. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Yeah, see, here's the misunderstanding. I don't think anyone is claiming "ram attacks into blocks, that is a great strategy!"
  36. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    By the way, dude, I would advise you not to speak for people you disagree with, particularly if you do not understand why they disagree with you. It both clouds your judgement and sets an adversarial tone, hindering the search for truth.
    CWheezy likes this.
  37. Ryker

    Ryker Well-Known Member

    If you're not placing emphasis on your two, then you are doing it wrong. Options that beat Geiger J for Ven are fairly limited and his repeatable one is worth emphasis and DOES cut into the number of dodges you have in practice and losing to any option (including block) is a big loss for Ven when he plays it. Aside from ramming block, I would consider it nearly as bad as Geiger throwing AA and having it Acro'd.

    If you have K. There are 4 Ks in your deck. Ks recur on hit. Aside from aces, it is the only thing that can make your dodges significantly strong (your normal throws are not strong without K or me respecting the idea of K). I am not saying that running into a dodge is a good thing, you lost combat for God's sake. I am saying that it is not a powerful punish unless you run Aces into a dodge or you make it a habit and do it four or five times (assuming Ven can get four or five dodges he's willing to throw). You can afford to risk dodges unless it's late game. Every dodge you see lets you get a feel for when the next one is coming. The punishment is KD and maximum of 9 damage (I assume you're KDing rather than attacking with K) unless he has Aces. I maintain that it is not a strong punishment.

    No one has successfully made me value Ven's KD as much as people theory craft it being worth. Again, Choke is the only one who's made me respect Ven at all and she did it with block/attack and severely outplaying me. I still won the game thanks to TD (I believe it was a checkmate after Choke blew her chance to win by not throwing AAA and having to Acro). I cannot remember if Choke won game one in that set or if I won 2-0, (the last game is the one I am referencing and I won with two life), but I won the set despite being outplayed throughout it.

    If I said that, I apologize as I have miscommunicated what I am trying to get across. I can see myself saying that, in which case I tripped over my own words. Let me try it like this.

    What we are doing here is theory crafting. I feel that you are theory crafting a best case scenario for Ven (which I have said turns the MU into a 6-4), but not weighting correctly exactly how bad it gets for Ven when any one of the options he has is gone. I'll hit this better when I get to the end of this post, so if you want to respond to this idea, get to it there.

    I'd expect to win 10, but I would take a safety net guess with eight. Again, you're welcome to play me should I not be tied up this afternoon (tomorrow, I believe I will be playing a match for the draft format and would rather stay in the realm of rules on mode). This is not a dig at your skill level or bragging about mine, I believe the MU is really terrible.

    See, the thing is. I'm not necessarily going to throw lots of fast moves on wake-up. I stress that I can and that I possess all of these fast moves so the option is not unrealistic (in the same vein, I talk about how it's worth it to throw AA if that's what you have available for the read). I can and will just block when KDed or throw on the dodge read if I really want it (I feel blocking when you dodge is a much larger pay out than it is in a lot of other MUs and it covers K attack, AAA, gold burst, and two/three dependent on what my guess as far as your mix-up is). I talk about how my reads have safety nets and your reads need to be precise. My block beats dodge and it beats attacks that are not cross-ups. My J beats throws, your three mix-up normal (or any not two normal), and blocks and my Q loses to your three while serving a similar purpose. My K/AA/Gold Burst beats your attack options, your throw options, and occasionally (in the case of Time Spiral Hurricane) your blocks as well. My throw is my only precise read as it will only beat defensive options and will only really see play if I'm looking for your dodge and throwing is completely unnecessary there and only serves to be played if I truly feel I have the read and want to get a greater pay out than blocking.

    Ven on the other hand, has to choose between attack (loses to block and reversal with it's only coverage being an cross-up where you and I both know that throwing an odd sacrifices your attack speed superiority), throw (loses to attacks of any kind and its only coverage concerns throw which is an option that I've already outlined as an unnecessary extravagance), and block/dodge (dodge beats all attacks while block only beats some attacks and may or may not be worth considering as a victory against other attacks and loses to block as we have already outlined that Geiger does better with gaining cards and certainly does better when Ven loses his KD state).

    Add on the fact that Ven gains less than Geiger from a successful combat (I feel like you disagree, so start yourself a paragraph here on why you do if I've read that correctly) and you just don't have a great situation when Geiger is KD. It's better than neutral, it's part of what your character is designed around, but the option coverage that Geiger has makes it really lackluster when coupled with the open threat of a DP.

    So? You not knowing the MU either is of less relevance than my DeGrey comment. When a MU is abusable, you can know it inside and out and not be able to do much about it when the opponent knows the MU. Not knowing the MU is a definite point in your favor regardless of whether or not you know it.

    The comment about my match with Deluks was made to display that he doesn't do well when he doesn't know the MU and that his Geiger is not his Grave (I can cite other examples to back this conclusion. That being said, Deluks knows most MUs when he's playing Grave and actively strives to learn more about this game which is why he is easily a top level player. I don't want to trash him, but I feel the point is relevant). I am questioning the strength of your assertions when you are basing it off

    and attempting to get you to reconsider what you are preaching at the moment.

    As for my above comment about theory Ven vs Ven in practice. If Ven draws all the options he needs, I believe the MU is 6-4 (bad match-up still), but it doesn't happen consistently. You always assume dodges, Ks, 2s, and Acrobatics. You almost always get one of at least 2 of the three specific cards and at least a pair of dodges, but you don't necessarily get to keep the Ks/2s because you don't always win combat in theory Yomi. I could, throw a silent Cycloid to take your 2 from you early in the game and you lose twenty life and may or may not be able to pick up another two which makes each Jack, and possibly Qs, an ordeal to cope with, ESPECIALLY on KD. As a match plays out, we interact, there is a lot of reading going on, but the rock-paper-scissors game stays rooted in my favor in most situations and the threat of an option (Geiger's faces and reversals vs. Ven's 2/K/Acro/dodges when not KDed) is generally more potent when Geiger is threatening as he has more options that work, a kantrip in RnD to search them out, and the ability to recur Js and Qs with TD. The fact that Ven has so little life keeps him from being able to stall a long game effectively when he loses access to an important option without finding himself in a deep, possibly too deep, hole. This is why I recommend playing it more because I can't seem to get you to try and look at Ven with limited options that he has to deal with in practice. I'm not really theory crafting sub-optimal draw Geiger because even sub-par draw Geiger can STILL play with optimal draw Ven and has much less trouble reaching a manageable hand.

    SIDE NOTE: Ven with 90 health would be 6-4 Geiger. Ven with 90 health and a good draw would be 5.5-4.5 Geiger.
  38. Ryker

    Ryker Well-Known Member

    Depends. Checkmated in a ten game set? Probably about ten times and a couple of the will come in succession because you didn't draw out of it or you played back into it a couple turns after. Checkmated in a situation that really stings? Two or three times, maybe more if I draw hands that lead to me playing for it.

    I disagree that dodge works fine because dodge is not necessarily available. If you save it, you open yourself up for punishment outside of Acro, if you don't save it, then there is a fair chance you either don't have a dodge or end up wasting a valuable 2/3. The threat of dodge can be, but then again, you have to be able to threaten dodge and that's as readable as anything else which is why accounting for the "threat of X" is a pain in the ass to do in theory.

    From Ven not being able to successfully limit my hand because he can't seriously threaten giving me the chance to draw them and trade for them. From Ven not dealing significant enough damage for me to feel the need to hold a gold burst in reserve should I have the read and not have reason to believe he's holding AAA. From Ven not being able to get consistent KDs in situations where I'm worried about all the options that he can throw. Again, I list it because it is an option there. Refer to my paragraph where I point out that I am not throwing fast attacks against you constantly unless you prove to me that it's going to work if I do (which hurts you pretty badly).

    I've never had a real issue obtaining Aces against any Ven when I'm playing Geiger.

    This is funny given my final paragraph and how much I stressed that it is based on testing.

    Yeah, neither am I. I am pointing out that two isn't extremely powerful. I'm not saying "ram attacks into dodges, that is a great strategy." I'm pointing out what you lose to, which includes block. The fact that losing to block is a loss for Ven, even if recurs, is a big part of the interaction that takes place concerning the 2 in this match up.


    We're not speaking in real time, so pre-empting possible counterarguments saves time and at worst, you are told that's not what they were getting at and you move on with nothing hurt.
  39. Choke Artist

    Choke Artist Well-Known Member

    Lum v Ven is pretty bad for Ven.
    Juushichi and cpat like this.
  40. Kawaiiness

    Kawaiiness Active Member

    Interesting because the more I think on this MU and apply various strategies the more sure I am this is a pretty solid 5/5. As I stated above, ven has all the tools to be scary to val. Dodge+K/Block are both very strong ways for ven to deal with val's pokes in the early game, and I certainly don't think she has much, if any, advantage with throws early. His 8 being an ability helps some, but not enough especially with the threat of K on throw leading to some pretty sick mixups.

    8 is just absurd. It's easily one of the best abilities in the game, and I would be tempted to trade ven's 8 for val's 10 (that's how good I think it is). Here's why I think it's so good vs val.

    Against a good player with val, I may land 2-3 heavy comboes in one game. Doing this takes very good reads and requires a good use of resources (common ways being throw into KD then mixing up normals on good reads, reading throw very strongly, or simply playing enough 10's to outspeed random pokes). This means that the majority of val's combat wins are on pokes or from throw combos. The sheer amount of work it takes to land a good normal attack starter (with 2.4 being her fastest) and having to potentially use 10's on top of that all for the possibility that he can take it away with a joker OR simply using an ability to drop combat make playing for big combo on him basically impossible. Sure he is slower next turn and cool yomi mindgames and w/e but the cost of what you have blown to even land that hit in the first place and how rare it is is bad news for val.

    With my val, I use pokes and throws to deal good damage and play to land normal string combos once I've got a good option to (4 or more normals and maybe a 10 or two), plus a good read on landing it. The benefit is it blows jokers almost always, and it gives you aces which you can now use to poke with or for throw combos. Denying val the ability to do this consistently with good reads and plays during the midgame is HUGE and SEVERELY hampers her agro game on ven because there are now 6 cards in his deck he can use to counter big combat wins and force val into using her less useful options in combat. Using 10's on ven is basically out of the question, his 8 might as well be a multi purpose counter on val, use two and he can counter them both with one 8. You'll still use them because they don't really do anything else and if it works out you can be happy but the existence of that card really hurts.

    That and king is fantastic. Land it once and you become the stronger poke character until val deals with it.

    Ven's throw combos are nothing to laugh at either.

    Overall, val has stronger attack options and throw options in general, but the ability for ven to pick and choose what combats val gets to win, the ability to shut down her 10s, K mixups, and a better overall return on a successful yomi for ven make it very even and very similar to sets (where val also has stronger throws and attacks but because of how often sets gets jokers and because combos don't hurt her hand means sets does better damage on hit and denies val some of her damage on hit).
  41. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    Saw some games of Argagarg/Onimaru, seems fine.
  42. cpat

    cpat Well-Known Member

    Definitely not more than 6-4 Arg. The only thing Oni is scared of here are Arg's Aces, whereas the only thing Arg is scared of is CWS/Final Authority shenanigans.
  43. major_shiznick

    major_shiznick Well-Known Member

    Rook vs. 3.5 Gloria was pretty grueling. There is little outside of AA or J to make Rook give a care in the world about Gloria's throws, I felt, so the match was mostly me blocking it out until Gloria's engine ran itself dry by polluting her hand with hearts. Also, Rock Armor is pretty nasty against her. I would call this a "potential problem" with Rook's favor.
  44. Did QH never come up? I thought Q throw existed to help with this problem, and she can recur it if she gets QH.
  45. major_shiznick

    major_shiznick Well-Known Member

    I don't think Qh really came up in our few games. Even if it did, 3 cards for 16 dmg or 2 for 10 dmg is just okay payoff compared to her normal throws given that Gloria needs cards to keep her life gain going against Rook. Q throw still loses outright to 2 3 6 and all of Rook's very nasty high normals, so it's not even much lower risk. I can't say for certain, though.
  46. cpat

    cpat Well-Known Member

    BBB-Rook is extremely tough for Rook. Range is very easy for BBB to attain, and Rook, with his nonexistent dodges, has a very tough time dealing with Range. Coupled with the normal draw rule, BBB has so many cards that he basically has AA in his hand all the time. Only real damage Rook can do is his own AA, and Stone Wall.

    Also, Rock Armor is pretty terrible because BBB can just combo into an Ace for KD.

    EDIT: "If you reveal a normal attack as your combat card and deal damage with it..." is a slight fix. Don't know how much this helps out.
    Choke Artist likes this.
  47. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    Jaina against Zane. If Jaina gets 10s Zane has a lot of difficulty because his damage off dodge is pretty bad and blocking is neutral cards.
  48. Juushichi

    Juushichi Well-Known Member

    Raziek and I actually talked about this MU in theory last night.

    We both think that it's hard for Zane and that to get the damage that is significant, he's going to have to guess right in spots, but if Jaina is trying to preserve attack cards early, she'll probably eat 8+KD somewhat early which is probably a bit important. Depending on how bad you feel about Geiger vs Jaina being, I don't think this MU is much worse than that.

    Also... I won't say that I think it is a very bad MU yet, but I am keeping my eye on 3.6 Gwen vs Onimaru and will continue to play it out.
  49. Ryker

    Ryker Well-Known Member

    This thread needs updating.

    Haven't played it yet myself, but BBB vs. Jaina seems absolutely abysmal for the robot.

    Past that, I think Quonce is by far the worst character in current expansion change list (including base characters).
  50. Juushichi

    Juushichi Well-Known Member

    BBB vs Vendetta is pretty awful for Vendetta, especially when range comes into play.

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