Yomi expansion beta 3.4

Discussion in 'Yomi: Fighting Card Game' started by Sirlin, Jul 20, 2012.

  1. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Same game wide rules and base character innate card things mentioned in 3.3.

    AA super now has correct help text.

    Hit points down 90 -> 80
    Junkshot (Queen) block damage fixed to really say 12, rather than 10.
    Junkshot (Queen) slower speed 4.0 -> 5.0 (grapplers can hit it with their 4 normal attack now)
    Salvage Components now says "Play this ability only once per turn" like it used to.
    Robo Headbutt doesn't give range anymore. Says "This card doesn't give range and you may not play it at range."

    Mistress's Command. The control only lasts until (and including) playing their combat card. You can no longer play their bluff card, or play the rest of their combo after their combat card, or play abilities that happen after combat cards are down such as Valerie's Burst of Speed or Jaina's Unstable Power. You can still play abilities that happen earlier, like after-the-draw-phase abilities.

    Bare Your Soul ability revised.
    After the draw phase, you may discard this card to draw a card then place the top 3 cards of the opponent's deck face up on the table. Whenever he would draw a card, you may have him take one of those face up cards of your choosing instead. Whenever the opponent would shuffle his deck, he shuffles the face up cards back into it.

    Do As Told ability slightly altered. It's no longer possible to use multiple copies of this ability to counter a *single* enemy ability card.
    Discard this card to counter the effect of any ability other than those on Aces, Jokers, or character cards. The opponent may choose to take 10 damage to make their ability uncounterable.

    Jack's ability notes that you decide to do the healing version "before bluff cards are revealed."

    AA super's block damage up 0 -> 4
  2. APALM

    APALM Member

    Thanks for this David - did you see my thread with the deGrey innate change suggestion?
  3. Snail Racer

    Snail Racer Active Member

    I am loving the new Persephone, especially with new dynamics of BYS.
  4. Choke Artist

    Choke Artist Well-Known Member

    Perce, at first glance, seems very underwhelming now.

    I think the new BYS is a bit of a nerf. Might last a turn or 2 before the opponent decides to end it by PU. Perce doesn't have the hand-crippling abilities of before, so it shouldn't be too much of a price to pay.

    MC is obviously worse, but seems to have little point, except where it might be OK in a few MUs where the opponent can be screwed by their own draw phase ability (Geiger, Grave). It's hard to land, and basically is just a free combat win, so it kind of evens out, but costs you aces that could be used for OYK. It's not even great as a hit-confirm, because the opponent is still in control of their bluff, so they can potentially threaten jokering your combo. It's not completely useless, I just don't see it getting used much.
    Jiggernaut likes this.
  5. vgambit

    vgambit Member

    We had an issue today about this wording again, and we've come to the conclusion that the wording on the card really is somewhat ambiguous.

    "Once per turn, when you could play a combo card, you may draw two cards and use up to one of them in your combo. Discard the unused card(s)."

    Including myself, I know of at least three people who read that and thought it meant the card was supposed to be used during a combo, after combat cards are revealed. Also, the rulebook refers to facedown cards as "combat cards," not "combo cards." It only refers to combo cards as cards that are used to continue a combo.

    If you change the description to

    "Once per turn, when you could play a facedown combat card, you may draw two cards and use up to one of them as your combat card. Discard the unused card(s)."

    I think that would resolve pretty much all the ambiguity with that ability.
    NoahTheDuke likes this.
  6. Snail Racer

    Snail Racer Active Member

    On that a separate note, Sirlin, and with all due respect, I'm surprised you did not make any changes to Gwen's ShardSwarm despite your saying the following in the beta 3.3 thread:
    I have checked that thread, and I did not see anyone disagreeing with that modification. Granted, nobody have even said their opinion about that change to SS, and you may have been waiting for some consensus before making that change happen, so I'll now say I support Gwen's SS giving an additional +1 card per turn while retaining both the activation condition and fall-off condition.
    NoahTheDuke likes this.
  7. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    The proposed wording changes what Zane's ability does.

    After winning combat, Zane draws 2 cards and may use up to one of them in his combo. Example: Zane plays a K (attack) against his opponent's 7 throw. He draws a 10 and a 5 for his innate (because he can combo after winning combat with K). He decides to combo the K attack into the 10 throw for 10 damage and KD. The remaining 5 is discarded.
  8. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Sounds like the 3 people correctly read what Zane's innate does. It does not say "combat card" and it is not supposed to say combat card. Just like those people thought, it's for combos that happen after the combat card is revealed.
    NoahTheDuke likes this.
  9. Geddonv

    Geddonv New Member

    When it comes to SS, I personally feel that 2 cards per turn is already enough, but the fall off condition is way too harsh. It has the condition as Gieger's TD without the same potential for infinitely long combos and damage, unless when all four As are attached. The way it is now, I actually rarely get the chance to do anything with it, so I pretty much end up ignoring it the entire time. In the end, it becomes a problem of guaranteed damage. If played as A+A, that's 8 damage per card, or AAA, is 9 damage per card. Meaning that in order to get equal to using it as a combat card you have to play a 4 card combo (or 5, which is a very awkward number, if you comparing it to DLP), but if you cannot guarantee that that damage will go through, you just wasted your Aces and the cards you are going to have to sack to power up to get the Aces back. If you are in the position to use all of your combo points, that means you are in a position to use A+A, a guaranteed 16 damage, rather than attaching and gaining nothing from it.

    I tested a variant on the fall off condition, worded: "Put this card in your discard pile when you block or are knocked down." And to me it seemed much more useful than its current incarnation. It increases the actual up time by a bit and eventually you're going to run through all your attack cards or find yourself in a position where you cannot keep it up and must dodge or block (or throw if you feel confident enough) meaning it won't last into infinity. Thematically it fits, as she is trying to be as aggressive as she can while the time is constantly ticking down, but if she is knocked down she is no longer in a position to be dominant and aggressive so the SS fades.

    Though, I can see this being a problem for Rook as he has no dodges or knockdown combo cards, so maybe "Put this card in your discard pile when you block or are thrown." But, I still prefer "are knocked down", as the "are thrown" condition makes her sound like a grappler.

    Of course if all else fails, 3 cards per turn might be nice.

    While on the topic of Aces, could it be possible to make AAA a 6 CP throw rather than a "Can't Combo", meaning that if you happen to have 4 Aces you can still attach the awkward left over Ace?

    One last thing about SS, is it supposed to SHADOWswarm or SHARDswarm? Both her PS and FD variants use a similarly named ability, Shadowswarm, making me a bit suspicious.
  10. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    "Put this card in your discard pile when you block or are knocked down" is acceptable to consider. The fall off condition happening too easily now seems like a good concern.

    It was always Shardswarm, but some typo happened in FD and PS, unfortunately.
    NoahTheDuke likes this.
  11. vgambit

    vgambit Member

    What about the interpretation that "when you could play a combo card" means that I have to prove that I'm actually able to combo without using Shenanigans?
  12. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Asked and answered in the previous thread. The phrase is also used for joker bluffs, and defined at length in the rulebook. Zane's innate is consistent with that. In neither case do you have to prove anything about what's in your hand.
  13. vgambit

    vgambit Member

    Ah, I misunderstood what you meant in the previous thread, then. Thanks.
  14. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    No problem. Hopefully you get it now. When you're playing a combo, you can use an extra card that's not from your hand. So you have a bit of extra fuel to do combos.
    NoahTheDuke likes this.
  15. Snail Racer

    Snail Racer Active Member

    I have also tested the new fall off conditions for Gwen's SS with Geddonv, and I also support this new fall off condition. If you are ever worried about the text of Gwen's SS ending up being too wordy, we can shrink the text like we did for innate of BBB's character card. Also, instead of "+2 damage and block damage", we can say "+2 (block) damage".

    On that note, I still believe we should add the quote "Pumps do not add to block damage" in the help text of SS because the effect of pumping attacks against a block will otherwise stay ambiguous to newcomers playing as Gwen. The help text does say that pumped attacks do not do +2 damage per pump, but that text mentions nothing about the original damage per pump.
    NoahTheDuke likes this.
  16. Thelo

    Thelo Administrator Staff Member

    These changes are now on the server, enjoy.
  17. How does Gwen's Chillbane interact with Bubble Shield and Troq's innate?
  18. Snail Racer

    Snail Racer Active Member

    The block is discarded, the opponent does not draw from the two draw from blocking, and both B. Shield and Troq's innate are not activated.

    Chillsbane should mention its ability to negate abilities which activate from blocking an attack.
  19. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    as discussed in sirlin chat, gwen J wording is now changed to "When you deal block damage with this attack, the opponent does not draw a card from blocking. If they would return their block to hand, they discard it instead."

    in the examples above, both BS and Troq innate would be activated.
  20. Can you facedown against Robo Headbutt's dizzy combo? If so, a Rewind Time prevent the whole thing, or just any follow-up combo hits after the first post-Headbutt attack?
  21. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    There is nothing really special about it in that regard. If Robo Headbutt hits, then further damage is possible, so you could play a facedown card. After the BBB player is done with combo stuff, you can reveal your facedown card and if it's a joker, all the damage done while the joker was face down is prevented, as usual. (So not the damage from robo headbutt itself, I'm assuming that was the original card the BBB played as his face down *combat card* in this example.)
  22. So it works like any combo, it just resets the combo counter and allows you to follow it with a starter. Correct?
  23. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

  24. Choke Artist

    Choke Artist Well-Known Member

    Huh. So when phrased like that, it seems like it'd be simpler as a 0 Cp starter.
  25. Volcanya

    Volcanya Active Member

    a 0 cp starter wouldnt let to combo into another starter
  26. Choke Artist

    Choke Artist Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I suppose. Also 0 CP starter isn't counterable, but for most intents and purposes, it's the same.
  27. Scarbo

    Scarbo Well-Known Member

    0 cp starter can't combo into throws, J, K, or AA, which is all his best damage options and his only Range option. Remaining combo options (7>normal>normal and 7>normal>A) are both pretty weak.
  28. Jiggernaut

    Jiggernaut Member

    Alright, just got back from playing new Perse. I feel a little conflicted and confused on the direction I want to take her, so I'll just state the facts of how I felt as a wall of text data. Other people can ask me about it and make conclusions about her direction later. (including me, if I develop one).


    I started off not doing well. Lost the first few games by a significant margin. Then I ignored all of her abilities except for her innate, went for KD combos, and I started doing well and having wins and close matches. To me, it seems like her getting a bunch of cards and having the opponent at a disadvantage is worth far more than her T* and MC.

    I tried using MC a bunch in later games, and it felt very bland. I'd take a big risk (or at least put all my effort into) landing MC. It lands. I get to do a combo and make them 'waste' a card. Most abilities I can't use anymore. It really just felt like using bonecracker on a turn I had happened to win combat on.

    I would honestly prefer to try and hit with a 2* (faster AND I get a card), and then I can do almost any combo after that, including KD stuff.

    Note that I'm not asking that MC be made better, or any kind of direction for it. I'm stating that I didn't feel it worth using.


    It certainly feel interesting to me. I would not say that it is a nerf or a buff. It is more controlling in some situations, and less in others. However, 'when the opponent needs to shuffle' is such a bad cut off. It's incredibly common to be able to do it, and most of the time (since the actual controlling part happens after the opponent gets a PU phase) it ends before Perse can do anything. All she gets is to know that those 3 cards exist somewhere in the deck, and that is rarely useful. As for a suggested cut off, maybe when she's KD? It doesn't seem to me that it needs to end very soon.

    Even if someone wants to Powerup and grab a card from discard, they are entitled to 'look through their deck' for an ace, and decide that they didn't find one (I've seen Sets players do this to avoid drawing aces), then grab one from their discard. Plus, what happens if a player simply picks up his deck and starts looking through it? I don't think that it's against the rules (right?), and it would force the player to have to shuffle the deck. According to the card, that means BYS ends. By the wording, the other player can choose to arbitrarily shuffle his deck to make the ability end, right?

    Another thing, what happens when you use more than one? As it stands, I'd think you could use 4 of them, draw 4 cards, make them show you 12 cards from their deck, all from one after-draw phase. Is that intended?

    Do As Told:

    For this one, I'm not sure why this change was made. I assume it was to stop the stupidity of 40 damage during MC. If so, as long as they have a few ability cards, you can still force the damage. Another change could be: "This card cannot be used during a turn controlled by your Mistress' Command ability." That is, unless a second 9* against someone who just took damage was deemed to be a problem. I found it made an interesting and deep moment of the players having to read each other.
  29. Like I mentioned in chat, if you waited until after a PU or for when the opponent had a smaller hand, it'd be more useful. In our games, you seemed to just play it whenever, so I had the doubles to powerup and ditch it. If you had waited until I got down to 4-5 cards (I was playing Degrey), then even if I can shed BYS it comes at a real cost.
  30. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    The entire pont of Do As Told is to be used during MC, so no to making it not work there. It's just that it's totally stupid to use 4 of them on a single enemy ability. To quote Sokek on the matter, "Just no." If that is allowed, they can't even avoid it very well by using most of their abilities. Like if they have 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 abilities (huge difference there in how they had to play) the result could be identical under the old wording, 40 damage no matter what if you have four 9s. They should actually get a benefit (in damage avoidance) by getting down to 2 abilities, compared to having 4 in their hand, for example.

    BYS could occur at end of turn, after power-up phase. That was actually the original suggestion for this version of it, even.

    No comment on the rest, at this point.
  31. vgambit

    vgambit Member

    Which Vendetta ability has priority: Wall Drive Loop or Acrobatics? Wall Drive Loop says the card is 1.0 on both sides if the opponent was knocked down on the previous turn. Does this ignore Acrobatics' effect, or is the speed 3.0 when both effects would apply?

    Also, does the speed debuff on Acrobatics stack if I use it more than once per turn?
  32. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    The first example can't happen because Acrobatics cancels combat, preventing him from KDing his opponent. Acrobatics resets all KDs from the previous turn as well.

    The second example also can't happen because you can't play Acrobatics during the speed debuffed combat.
  33. vgambit

    vgambit Member

    So if I knock them down turn 1, and play Acrobatics turn 2, then the Wall Drive Loop effect is no longer in play?
  34. CrystalChaos

    CrystalChaos Moderator Staff Member

    That is correct.

    If you play Acrobatics, the KD goes away, preventing Wall Dive Loop from getting the speed boost.
  35. vgambit

    vgambit Member

    Interesting. Ok.
  36. Ryker

    Ryker Well-Known Member

    How about Lum slow?
  37. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Lum's slow and KD in general last only until next combat, not next turn. That used to be the same thing but isn't anymore with Acrobatics existing. Those things will be written a bit differently to reflect that, though I am putting off doing that for a while. In the meantime, play them in the spirit of their intent, which is really "next combat."
  38. Snail Racer

    Snail Racer Active Member

    If that's true, then I hope the following scenario is accurate. Let's say in a Ven vs. Troq MU, Vendetta was knocked down, and the KD carries over to the next turn. In the next turn during combat phase, Troq successfully lands Beast Unleashed, but Ven activates Acrobatics. Since Troq's ability Prone Prey makes Beast Unleashed perform-able only when his opponent was knocked down last turn, Vendetta's Acrobatics did not prevent Troq from using another BU during the new combat phase that turn. True, Ven is no longer KD'ed in this new combat phase. However, Acrobatics did not prevent the assassin getting knocked down last turn, so the condition of Prone Prey is still satisfied in this new combat phase.

    I have no problems with this scenario if it's accurate, but my questions are:
    1. Is the above scenario accurate?
    2. I know Troq's War Stomp cannot be used in conjunction with BU on the same turn if the opponent did not get knocked down last turn. Is that supposed to be happening?
    3. When Troq's WS does make the opponent experience KD on one turn, even though the status will not carry over to the next turn from WS alone, will conditions of Prone Prey be satisfied next turn? (I believe the answer is no, but I just want confirmation.)
    4. Does Ven's ability to use Acrobatics while knocked down make sense if the KD status is carried over from the last turn? Because KD makes dodges invalid moves, I do not think Vendetta should be able to temporarily avoid combat altogether while knocked down.
  39. Scarbo

    Scarbo Well-Known Member

    Snail Racer, you are using an old version of Prone Prey. Current wording is:

    "You can only perform the Beast Unleashed throw if your opponent is knocked down."
  40. Snail Racer

    Snail Racer Active Member

    Sorry, I'll edit my post to fix those changes.
  41. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    That doesn't sound right, but I'm short on time and can't read it closely. I think the following should answer ALL possible questions on the subject:

    There is no such thing as any of this stuff caring about next turn or last turn, ever. Treat knockdown as having effect during the next combat. (It must be, it's flavor nonsense to have a single knockdown affect do something to you across multiple combats.)

    Troq's ace cares if they were under knockdown effects during the most recent combat--not the last turn, forget "turn." If he knocks them down with the war stomp ability on a normal turn that has one combat, yeah ye could do the Ace move that combat. Not if they use acrobatics to create a second combat though, they aren't under knockdown effects during that *second* combat. (Again this must be, as it's flavor nonsense to require Troq to have them knocked down but then have some other combat inbetween where they are flipping around acrobatically and not knocked down.)

    These rules override all words on all cards. Cards will be changed later to do what these rules say.

    By the way, acrobatics is really good and Vendetta should be watched because of this. Not saying it's too strong (I don't know), just that it's something to keep an eye on.
  42. Snail Racer

    Snail Racer Active Member

    Pardon my ignorance on the current wording of Prone Prey. I will not make that same mistake again anytime soon.

    EDIT: I do not expect an immediate response for this because I know the staff is busy, and I hope my information as accurate this time; I have just realized Vendetta's Acrobatics can be used on combat phases when in which Vendetta plays no-card. At least, I think that's true.

    EDIT 2: After thinking about the effects of the Vendetta playing Acrobatics when he plays no-card, I've come to the conclusion of it being fine (on paper) because the 2.0 slow-down keeps this tactic in check. Leaving Acrobatics it the way it is, for now, is a fine idea.
  43. Jiggernaut

    Jiggernaut Member

    I suppose that's a better situation. And if I actually felt like using MC, it would be even more powerful. Though on that note, isn't it kind of much more powerful than old BYS? If they have a low hand (and they might not PU to end it) and you use MC, you might be able to limit an option. Then after that, rather than just knowing what's going into their hand, you choose what goes into their hand. You can use additional BYS cards to either reset the ability, or draw 3 more cards (still not sure which would happen).

    So in the (admittedly less common than before) situation occurs when Perse can limit an option, she does it so much better than she could before. In fact, if she remembers the hand, she can stop any doubles from occurring in the opponent's hand, making the ability last indefinitely. As a player, I would love to do this to an opponent, but many people would say that such a situation that is anti-yomi.

    That's why I was asking. I didn't know if the point was for Do As Told to be used during MC or not. I figured it was a 'side-effect' that other players were complaining about. If that's what it's meant to be, then current effect is good. Though to clarify, the 'uncounterable' effect for spending 10 life is only on that instance of the ability? Not other instances of the same ability, right? Another concern is that since Perse can only control a handful of abilities, some characters get 'lucky' and some characters get 'screwed' in that regard, since some characters have 2 abilities for her to use it on, and others have none.

    That BYS change seems more natural, but I am worried about it currently in general (See above)
  44. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Used to last on average 4 turns per activation. Now lasts 3 turns.
    Used to not be avoidable by shuffling deck. Now is avoidable while shuffling deck.
    These things are weaker.

    Regarding how easily you can limit an option:
    Used to be able to limit an option very easily by using MC to make them discard many more cards than you can now.
    Now, can't make them discard bluff, can'd make them waste a full combo into your joker, can't make them play several types of ability cards. Instead, can delay them from getting a certain card for a turn or two, which they will still get (and they can shuffle to cancel this affect anyway).

    That actually seems much weaker overall.
    Targie likes this.
  45. Scarbo

    Scarbo Well-Known Member

    With the new double knockdown rule, Troq can use T* (War Stomp) to cancel knockdown on himself. To prevent this - and because it doesn't make sense for him to be war stomping while KD anyway - I suggest a wording change to:

    "After the draw phase if you are not knocked down, you may play this card to knock down the opponent and draw a card."
  46. Turbo164

    Turbo164 Well-Known Member

    I can picture War Stomp being used as a semi-Ukemi as he falls heavily enough to knock down the opponent too...but that renders him less vulnerable to Cow Tipping. Hmm...
  47. Jiggernaut

    Jiggernaut Member

    Yes, of course overall, it is weaker. But I have to ask why she was weakened. The complaint I heard was that she too often created a situation where her opponent lacked an option and this created "shallow gameplay" for both sides. Is the problem that they happened too often, or that they happened at all?

    Currently MC lends itself less to these 'un-yomi' situations, while BYS leans more towards them.

    Currently, her build would allow her to rarely create a stranglehold over the opponent's options, compared to before where she somewhat commonly limited a single option for a short period of time.

    I imagine that we aren't seeing the same things here, so I'm going to playtest it the next chance I get. But with her current cards, I can do some real' nasty things to someone provided I land MC.
  48. Mililani

    Mililani Well-Known Member

    If there wasn't already reason enough to change the wording, this is what seals the deal.
  49. I've been playing Degrey/Gloria with Arkhan, and maybe he's a much better player than me or something, but as far as I can tell Degrey/Gloria is ugly for Degrey. Degrey is almost entirely reliant on K and A dodges to do damage. Gloria has some of the best tools in the game to control her hand size, so Degrey has trouble turning throws or normal hits into big damage. Conversely, if Gloria wins combat, worst-case she can safely bounce Js back to her hand. Even if she does run a large hand, Degrey needs Js to capitalize on combat wins from anything but an A dodge.

    Maybe some better players can look at this matchup?
  50. Maph

    Maph New Member

    I definitely agree. I played a fair bit of Gloria over the weekend, and fought Degrey a few times. Once she gets 7H, J, and QH either in hand or discard she's pretty set. Before that though, it's like watching two snails try to ram each other to death. They both need the right cards to really gain any ground on the other, but Gloria can recur hers.

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