Yomi Rebalance? Ever?

Discussion in 'Yomi: Fighting Card Game' started by Inkstud, Oct 4, 2011.

  1. Inkstud

    Inkstud Well-Known Member

    I read someone saying here at some point that there was definitely, absolutely not going to be any sort of rebalancing ever to the original 10 yomi characters. Is that totally set in stone true? While I feel the balance is quite good already, I do feel like some minor tweaks could be beneficial, now that the game has been out for a while and people have a pretty good feel for it. Grave could maybe be nerfed a little bit, and maybe something done to even out Rook vs Lum a little bit (Rook is my favorite character and it's pretty disheartening to me that he's so much less viable almost entirely due to this matchup). Maybe take Setsuki down just a peg (maybe not). Wouldn't want to get crazy with anything, just touch a few small target areas. It would also be a good opportunity to fix all those strange printing typos on Lump's name. What do you guys think?
  2. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    It's a tricky issue, and one that's likely not going to be forced yet.

    As it stands yomi's been released, and errata's for card games suck. It works a little better with Puzzle strike because you don't have to replace so much, but with yomi just one or two changes could mean an entire reprint of a character.

    Siriln himself has also stated that it's set in stone. No changes.

    All that said I still think it might be an interesting community project to throw together some rebalanced core characters "just in case" and at the very least it might be something for sirlin to throw on the site. "homebrew" characters or whatever for people to print out if they want.

    If done my personal list would be-
    1. Mild buff to degrey somewhere. I feel like he's one of the bigger offenders of not really having a "gg broken" effect to him.
    2. Mild nerf to grave. In all honesty i think having more people buffed to graves level would be more fun than nerfing grave to theirs. Still he just does so much crazy stuff and at the very least i'd like to see it give somewhere.
    3. Lum tweaks. Namely re arrange RTD a little to make it less absurd. If i could go for broke i'd make poker flourish more interactive.
    4.The change to rook i just discussed in chat was- Change his 3 effect to something more interesting. To makeup for him losing 4 of his 8 "dodges", make rock armor better. Either only require same color, discard 2 of the same suit, or if he uses rock armor the opponent doesn't get to pump/combo but he does take the dmg, and he starts his combo(like how super armor works in most fighting games.)
    5. Vals king. It just...doesn't make sense. Bold strokes could be more fun as well.
    6. A tiny sets nerf could help smooth out some matchups.
    7. Maybe a tiny arg nerf somewhere and make Protective ward better.

    Anyways that's probably in order of importance if you move the degrey one after the lum and grave issues. Stilll not likely to happen but i've been hashing out ideas on my own time just for the hell of it.
  3. Majidah

    Majidah Well-Known Member

    The balance is so extremely tight that it's hard to imagine what we'd change. The absolute worst matchups are like 6-4, and if we want any ability to counter pick we sort of can't do better. Sirlin is like king of counter pickers in tournaments, we aren't changing that.

    I think there's a much more interesting rebalancing tool than errata--the expansion. We should endeavor in our rebalancing to make some characters who have good matchups against the top of the original cast and poor matchups against the bottom. That will level the original playing field even more without having to reprint anything.
  4. zem

    zem Super Moderator Staff Member

    uh he doesn't actively want imbalanced matchups just so counterpicking is an option. not saying there should be a rebalance, but this is a weird thing to say or i'm misreading it
  5. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    To answer the OP, Sirlin hasn't ruled out not rebalancing Yomi EVER. But it will be a very long time, like maybe in 10 years.
  6. Majidah

    Majidah Well-Known Member

    We didn't go around putting fingers on the scales in the individual match ups to achieve global balance, but if a character has some good and some bad matchups (as long as they're still close), that's a feature not a bug. The game is duller if every match up is 5-5. The game is better for those slight imbalances. Our goal wasn't "good and bad matchups," but it also wasn't "all match ups exactly even."

    Besides, the imbalances are so tiny they may not even be real. Maybe someone will figure out a tricky way to play arg so that he beats grapplers. Maybe grave secretly loses to sets. Part of the game is exploring those margins. A re-balance is only warranted if there's a clear akuma situation, and there's not. The tier list consists of "Grave is maybe a little strong? I dunno." That's about as good as balance gets.
  7. SillySod

    SillySod Active Member

    I think you could achieve alot by rebalancing Rook. Ideally a rebalanced Rook would break Graves domination of the metagame and remove the worst matchup in the game (Lum/Rook) without allowing Rook to dominate Midori or Arg any harder than he currently does.

    I would suggest...
    - change the Q "Rolling stone" from a throw into an attack (the throw aspect is totally aesthetic and totally stupid because it only serves to slant the midori matchup even further in his favour)
    - adjust 3 ability "Entangling Vines" such that it returns to his hand in the same way as a normal block (one of his big problems at the moment is that his "dodges" do very little damage so people can spam attacks with not much risk)
    - speed up thunderclap to 1.4 (so it ties with coin toss)
    - switch his 8 block and his 7 throw so he now has a 7 block and an 8 throw (so he has one less brainlessly superfast throw to use against setsuki/arg/etc without changing his midori match or reducing his overall number of throws)

    Slowing Graves ace, Lums Q, and speeding up Degrays throws might also be worth experimenting with.

    Its not going to happen though. And hopefully it wont need to happen because the expansion will meddle with the metagame.
  8. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Actually i'd say grave is the one obvious case. It's not a matchup thing, its a toolkit thing. He's got everything, and everything he has is above average.
  9. Majidah

    Majidah Well-Known Member

    Do you think it's possible to build a character who beats grave (not badly of course, maybe 6-4 or 5.5-4.5) and simultaneously loses to rook (by a similar margin)?
  10. SillySod

    SillySod Active Member

    Do I think that Midori exists? Yes.

    Although the rook matchup is clearly a bigger disadvantage than the Grave matchup is advantage.
  11. RoieTRS

    RoieTRS Active Member

    Such a character would have a block on J that also beat throws.
  12. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Not trying to pick on you here, Maj, but I strongly disagree on both of these. 5-5 matchups are great, and they somehow get a bad rap as "boring." I can think of lots of intense 5-5 matchups in various games, particularly ones where one guy needs to work really hard for one hit, then has huge pay-off. I think there's this misconception that uneven matchups are good for the "underdog" effect, but you can have local unevenness is even matchups anyways, you really don't need to give up the balance to get that. In any case, getting everything to 5-5 is basically impossible for a really interesting game anyways, so I suppose it's a moot point.

    I think a rebalance can be worthwhile outside of akuma situations. The akuma situation makes the choice easy (of course you do it), but I don't think it's the only such case. There are a variety of factors that reduce the cost of a rebalance (like having a deep knowledge of the game, or the game getting a rerelease edition anyways) and a variety of factors that improve the benefit (maybe some people who got bored will come back for a bit). If the cost/benefit is good enough, it's worth doing. That can be difficult to evaluate, I admit, but I don't think it's as simple as "rebalance if and only if akuma situation."
  13. Lofobal

    Lofobal Well-Known Member

    Responding to this because it think it represents a misunderstanding.

    Mechanics are important, but they are not the only important thing. Your post implies that "totally aesthetic" means it has low value, when that is not really the case. Aesthetics are important too, and Q-throw is something that really solidifies Rook as "the throw guy" over other characters like Midori. I think you are massively undervaluing it here.
  14. CWheezy

    CWheezy Well-Known Member

    Also worst match is lum v rook at 7-3
  15. SillySod

    SillySod Active Member

    I like the idea of the Q throw but it is only bad for the game. Its basicly never used as a throw. If rolling stone actually did anything other than make the midori match bad then it would be ok but as it stands its a poor piece of balance and nothing else..... aesthetics are nice but Rook doesnt need an infeasible throw to be the throw guy :)

    If keeping the throw is deemed important then it has to be a cant combo throw. Tbh its pretty w/e which of those two options are chosen but the current incarnation is a non-option in a rebalanced game.
  16. Majidah

    Majidah Well-Known Member

    Yeah I think we basically agree, I said "a game with all 5-5 matches is duller" not "5-5 matches are dull." 5-5 matches can be great, but I feel that if you only explore the part of the game space which has 5-5 matches you'll run out of fun 5-5s before you run out of fun characters.
  17. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    A game with all 5-5 matches might be duller just because it probably wouldn't be asymmetric anymore. But if Yomi were to somehow have all 5-5 matches (impossible, of course) it'd be a better game for sure.

    I'll only post once on this since it's off-topic, but:

    Removing Q throw does seem like one of the easiest ways to buff Midori-Rook matchup, since it affects the rest of the matches so little. I acknowledge that if you wanted to, you might be able to come up with a better solution that balances the matchup AND keeps Rook's flavor as throw-guy. Still, if somehow I were put in charge of Yomi balance and had to make a decision by tomorrow, removing Q throw would be a pretty sure bet.

    Now that I think of it I never did ever get around to making a hypothetical changelog...
  18. Alhazard

    Alhazard Active Member

    Sorry but I disagree. The Q throw is good in half of the MUs: Grave, Jaina, Degrey, Geiger, Arg. If you are going to throw, you can use the Q throw if you are willing to forgo the KD so you can use 6s and 7s to armor instead. The speed difference means that those characters can only counterthrow you successfully with a 7.

    EDIT: I am actually confused as to how the Q throw helps against Midori so can you explain? Rook's main problems come from Midori's 3s,4s, and 5s and the Q throw does not help.
  19. Alhazard

    Alhazard Active Member

    oic loltenchar
  20. DredNicolson

    DredNicolson Active Member

    That would set a dangerous precedent that I don't agree with. "Oh we can't ever have throws you can play after attacks because Midori is sad."

    It'd put more words on an already long rules text, but a much better change would be to have Midori only lose DF if he loses to a throw as a combat card. You get the same effect without shutting the door on design space.
  21. Choke Artist

    Choke Artist Well-Known Member

    Rook's Q throw really isn't the reason that MU is slanted in Rook's favour.

    Rook has faster throws, more life and lower variance. Those are the reasons that MU is in Rook's favour. The Q is just sorta icing on top.

    Mid doesn't even go into DF very often against Rook because it's very hard to keep it up and it's almost impossible for him to build a hand against Rook, meaning in any given hand, he's lucky to have 2 faces.

    Most Mid players just use the 2 as a throw and glimpse the faces since it's not very useful as a dodge.
  22. UlyZed

    UlyZed Active Member

    I feel the best 'revision' would be a new set of character cards with different innates.

    All things considered, I feel most matches have enough Yomi in them that you can't just valuate a win. That could very well be my inexperience talking, but overall there are very few 'throw your hands in the air' moments.

    With the exception of Geiger, I think the other accepted Tier A/B characters rely heavily on innates for advantage. Grave, Setsuki, Arg, Jaina and Lum have wonderful natural abilities. I feel as though Midori, Val and DeGrey have weaker abilities overall.

    Of course this is only my opinion, but given the design brief of the game and the costs of bringing an expansion to bear, a new set of character innates seems far and away the best 'revision' to an otherwise well-balanced first edition. If 'alternate' versions rather than 'super' versions, it could even make some mirrors much more interesting.
  23. cpat

    cpat Active Member

    This sounds good, except it makes the Sets-Mid match-up (4-6) worse for Sets. (I have also seen people argue that this MU is worse than 4-6 already anyways.)
  24. SillySod

    SillySod Active Member

    Yeah, modifying Rook so he loses the combo throw isnt the same as saying "combo throws cant happen". More like "combo throws cant happen if there is no reason to have them". For example I'm in favour of keeping Setsukis combo throw precisely because it makes midori cry (although apparently not enough). Likewise I wouldnt suggest tampering with linker throws just for the midori matchup... those linker throws are doing a whole bunch of other things that rooks Q is not.
  25. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    I totally disagree with SillySod and vivafringe about Rook's throw being made can't combo or removed. I think viva often brings the "math guy" viewpoint and has overlooked that the flavor Rook having that throw has value. SillySod also dismisses that out of hand, even though Lofobal correctly explained why it should be kept. (By kept I mean that his "running grab" can be combos into, not the exact damage and speed of it.)

    Obscura's list is shocking in that it contains two items, neither of which affect the worst matchup in the game. I mean seriously now. Also, there is no chance of True Power of Storms changing even if we could change things. This is yet another case of ditching feel and flavor in favor of "math guy" answers. If you wanted to make Grave weaker, you'd switch the 10 and 7 abilities or something, not make his shin shoryuken some watered down thing.

    UlyZed that sounds like an ok idea at first, and it was an idea about 4 years ago. But really some characters have their deck made around their innate, and you can't just replace it with some other innate without making a new deck to go along with it. I don't think it's really a feasible idea to just make new character cards for everyone and somehow have that be fair and work. So it's not planned.
  26. Choke Artist

    Choke Artist Well-Known Member

    TPoS is OP, but I'd honestly rather see the 10* go. TPoS can be fun to play and play around, the 10 is just boring.

    I guess it would be OK for it to be on his 7. Helps a lot of his good matchups, like Val, Sets and Geiger.

    If I had my way, I think I'd just replace it with something weak or remove it completely.
  27. Aphotix

    Aphotix Super Moderator Staff Member

    Rook vs Lum is easily worse than Rook vs Midori. Rook doesn't stop Midori from winning combats, he simply gets better payoffs and has more life. Lum completely shuts Rook down unless he is quite unlucky. I won't speak about Sets vs Midori, because I'm biased to the point where I hope it just keeps getting worse for Sets. =D

    By the way, I don't find that Grave's have the chance to do what you suggest against good players. If they are losing (badly, otherwise I don't see why you would be the game), then they shouldn't have all these extra pairs in their hand that they can afford to power away. That's my experience anyway.
  28. AlbeyAmakiir

    AlbeyAmakiir Active Member

    Grave is not Ryu. Grave is like Ryu.

    RNG only lets you win combat ~50% of the time. If you want to win more often, use Yomi.
  29. Plumlum

    Plumlum Active Member

    I agree that grave's AAA does way too much damage. Its rng-comeback potential is super good but that is because it can't be jokered out if you make it all-or-nothing.

    So at worst it is 50-50 and at best you can hitconfirm or dodge and it does half of people's life in damage.
    For only 3 Aces.
  30. Sirlin

    Sirlin Steward of the Realm Staff Member

    Ken is not "known more for shin shoryuken than Ryu." Ken does not even have that move, it's Ryu's. And the point isn't that Grave is a copy of Ryu, it's that they both have a reason to have that move. In street fighter it means "real" shoryuken, like the most legit one. Ken is too much of a showoff goof to have it. Serious-face Grave has the "true" power of storms, and it's extremely on purpose those stats are what they are. The very first stats on day 1 were true power of storms does 45 so that it's 15 per ace, the best there is, and dragonheart is speed 0.0.

    If you are going to think about some future version, it's better to think about things that might possibly ever happen, and changing those two stats won't. It's important to keep the flavor good rather than ruin it, and there is a way to have balance with keeping flavor. Luckily we're already better balanced than any fighting game anyway, so losing flavor to gain balance would be even worse of an idea here than in almost any other game. But again, it's a false choice and you can have both. I gave on example of how to make grave worse if that's the goal.
  31. Choke Artist

    Choke Artist Well-Known Member

    This is pretty much false. Swapping the 10/7 doesn't really change his Arg/Rook/Midori/Degrey (All pretty much even or worse matchups for Grave) matchups, but all the other ones are boosted.

    Throw speed is pretty irrelevant against Mid/Rook.

    Arg has nothing worth countering, so it's just a 7 throw there.

    And Degrey's TR isn't that great, and if you want to counter P/CP, it's gonna cost you two 7s.

    His really good match ups are Jaina, Val, Sets, Geiger and Lum.

    Everyone there either gets the throw advantage or are able to use their abilities, so it works out well for them.

    Pretty solid change, to be honest. It's not often a change really only hurts someone in good matchups and doesn't make a difference in bad ones.
  32. Waterd103

    Waterd103 Well-Known Member

    This is crazy statement, when you throw with 7 you expect to win a lot.

    It would help a lot vs VAL, since now he has to give up a fast throw to counter his ESSENTIAL ten. Some people may argue that it may it make it Jaina favored now, but i dont thikn thats the probelm. I agree it doesnt affect much sets. Lum would be delighted to see that at least grave has to give up one if his fast throws to counter his stuff.
  33. Choke Artist

    Choke Artist Well-Known Member

    I think Geiger and Jaina are worse than 5.5-4.5. Grave is faster and they both rely on abilities quite a bit.

    Even so, they are in Grave's favour and it wouldn't kill Grave to be on the wrong end a 5.5-4.5.

    And MM could be removed or nerfed it was too OP on the 10. Like 'Discard this card and another card to look at your opponent's hand. Then draw a card.' Sorta deal.

    I never was clear on why MM had Grave draw 2 cards and discard 1...
  34. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    Hmm looks like it's ok to jump in and keep talking. The OP is answered anyway. That said, let's try to keep it civil. It's not like any of this discussion matters anyway. :)

    It's true that Choke Artist misspoke when he said Grave v. Jaina/Geiger were "really good," but most people think they are slightly in Grave's favor. CA is mostly in the ballpark when he says that Grave's favorable matchups get less favorable while his unfavorable matchups stay the same or improve. However imo Grave v. Sets would get better for Grave, since now he can just use MM on every SotF turn and it's a bitch.

    Still, when you add that to the fact that most people would much rather be playing every Martial Mastery they draw than every counter they draw (because MM is a super fun ability!), I think it would be a great change.

    One thing we should discuss are what we consider to be the "problem matchups" that we want to fix. I made a list earlier but have been convinced that a couple aren't really problem matchups (like Midori v. Jaina). Here is what I would say now, with worst matchups roughly ordered first. I think my tier list is perhaps a little conservative, so the matchup numbers are more like worst case scenario estimates.

    Rook - Lum (3-7)

    Rook has very few answers to Lum's attack spam (Q is the worst). RTD is extremely annoying because he can attack almost indefinitely. Nothing Rook draws will help that much, so he ends up getting slowly chipped away. In order to win, Rook needs to play patiently, use his special blocks judiciously, and sniff out Lum's rare throws/blocks.

    Setsuki - Midori (3.5 - 6.5)

    Against most opponents, Setsuki relies on her fast throws to prevent her opponent from building a big hand. That's obviously impossible against Midori, who can counterthrow efficiently for a significant chunk of her life. She also can't really dodge because throws are a big part of Midori's range, and because his attacks are often undodgeable. So Sets has to attack a lot, which lets Midori get a big hand. At that point, dQ rapes everything. I think I have like 95% hitrate of dQ vs. Sets players. Dodge -> AA is something that a lot of characters can do, but only Midori can build enough cards against Sets to assemble that. His dodges also have much higher hitrates, because again Sets has to attack a lot.

    Rook - Midori (6.5 - 3.5)

    Unlike every other opponent, Midori can't build a hand against this guy. Rook has two throws that are pretty much faster than all of Midori's, which makes blocking much worse than it usually is for Midori. Dragon form is also a lot less scary, since Rook can attack into Q-throw. That said, I disagree that 2 is a throw, because it's still slower than the throws Rook is most likely to use.

    Grave - Valerie (6.5 - 3.5)
    Grave's Q/T trump Burst of Speed, and naked TPoS is very strong against Val's lategame plan of normal attacks into big combos. J is annoying because attacking really isn't too safe vs Grave, and her normals lose to it.

    Setsuki - Geiger (6.5 - 3.5)
    Since Sets has infinite dodges (and cards), Geiger needs KD to ever hope to use his innate. But more importantly than that, Geiger can't build a hand because Sets just fast throws him over and over. His only great tool against Grapplersuki is K, but you can only draw so many of those. To win, Geiger has to get AA assembled quickly. Once he gets AA, the match becomes more even and is sort of a game of chicken where Sets is terrified of getting hit and Geiger is terrified of whiffing AA and going back to getting Roflstomped by fast throw/attack mixup.

    Setsuki - Degrey (6 - 4)
    Pretty much same as Geiger matchup, useless innate and can't build a hand. HOWEVER, in places where Geiger has to do lame shit like slow time spiral, DeGrey has PILEBUNKER. If you can land a Pilebunker, you are a long way toward winning the match. But obviously this isn't trivial to do.

    Grave - Lum (6 - 4)

    Usually, Lum has 2 plans: attack a lot, or build up a big hand for Poker Flourish shenanigans. Both of these suck vs. Grave, so Lum has to beat down with his bad low damage throws.

    Rook - Arg (6 - 4)

    Arg's innate looks pretty silly vs Rook's ten damage throws that KD and 100 life. So Arg has to poke over and over. Eventually he runs out of good stuff like Q and is just throwing out random garbage like 4 attack, at which point J/rock armor become very good. Bubble Shield, Arg's only good card, is arguably hardest to actually land in this matchup (although doing so will even things up a lot).

    Lum - Midori (6 - 4)

    I'm not actually too experienced in this matchup, but in the times I've played it, attack spam has been super annoying. That said, Midori has a lot of ways to fight attack spam so IDK.

    Geiger - Midori (6 - 4)

    Midori only has a few answers to time spirals: 8 Dodges, AA, Q, and J. So if Midori doesn't use them carefully, he is going to get rolled. Assuming Midori doesn't just run out of answers, the game is basically a fight over Geiger's hand size. Geiger needs to "win" a few block-block combats, but after he has reached critical mass he is tough for Midori to stop. I thought this was 4-6 forever, but feel like it might be better for Midori now that he can Joker after he blocks a J or Q. So it's possibly not a problem matchup anymore.

    Setsuki - Grave (4- 6)

    I don't actually think this is a problem matchup, but lots of people disagree with me so IDK what to think really. That said, if 7/10 were to get switched on Grave I think it'd be a problem matchup. Right now I feel like Sets can pressure pretty hard with dodge/throw mixup with Q's thrown in. Grave Q sucks, yeah, but it's not like Setsuki wants to be using a lot of attacks vs. block guy anyway.

    If you agree with my list, it seems like the characters that would need the most tweaking are Setsuki and Midori.

    Here is a Sets tweak I've been playing around with:

    Setsuki
    - Normal Throw damage 6->4
    - 7* cantrips (put 2 on top of your deck and 1 in your hand).
    - Opponents can’t play non-innate, non-ace abilities during SotF turns.

    The matchups that are really favorable for her are all favorable because she just throws them over and over for way too much damage. So Throw nerf is to help with that. Notice that she can't actually throw Midori anyway so that nerf affects her less there.

    7* isn't really used most of the time, and it is an important tool vs. Midori. So there are two reasons to buff it.

    If Grave gets his counter switched, it's important that he can't MM during SotF turns. Similarly it would be nice if she could safely dodge sometimes while in SotF vs. Midori. So that's the justification behind last change.
  35. Bucky

    Bucky Well-Known Member

    Suggestion: Slow down Grave's J to 2.6
    Rationale:It already beats blocks and throws, give more attacks a chance to beat it in the matchups where players do not want to dodge often.

    Pros: This change lets Val poke through it with a normal attack with one fewer BoS. It also makes J spam less frustrating in several other matchups, making it trade with Rook's Q and lose cleanly to Midori's J.

    Cons: Random J becomes less safe against Argagarg because it loses to 2.
  36. Choke Artist

    Choke Artist Well-Known Member

    I agree with this. But J is not a great move against Arg anyways, it's not usually played as a combat card, since it's hard countered by Bubble Shield, loses to Q, ties with J and isn't even great when it does hit a normal block because he only nets +1 HP on the turn, plus it can be countered. So nerfing it should affect that MU too much.

    And in regards to Viva's post about Sets-Grave, with the counter on the 7, Sets would be able to use Bag of Tricks more easily against Grave, which significantly reduces the effectiveness of MM, as he already knows 60% of the hand. Plus he can't do it 'every turn' as he draws a max of 4, and Sets' games tend to be shorter, so you really should expect to see him use more than twice a match.
  37. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    Currently, Grave could promise me he had no Tens in his hand and I still wouldn't use 7* unless I had 7AA in my discard. 7 throws are too valuable to ever give up unless you have a 7 in discard. Also, Q's aren't too great vs. Grave, so "standard" return of 7KQ is actually pretty meh when you factor in you're down a card (and not drawing jokers).

    If you use 7* when Grave has a 7 in his hand, I think he'd be perfectly OK countering it. Both lose a 7 throw and you start down a card. So it still seems like a marginal play even with counter on Grave's 7.

    "Every" sotf turn is an exaggeration, but remember games don't last long, and Sets doesn't get that many SotF's per game. Using T once or twice when she SotF's is pretty devastating.
  38. Choke Artist

    Choke Artist Well-Known Member

    Unless she gets a really bad draw, she shouldn't be too worried about getting MM'd. Unlike most characters, she won't have any of those cards for very long.
  39. UlyZed

    UlyZed Active Member

    Is it possible to add a brief description of why those matchups are considered bad?

    E.g. Rook must win the game very early against Lum because Rook only has AA and 3s to counter Lum spamming faces and Aces almost indefinitely (via RTD and powerups).

    I think that would give us a better chance to contest what is considered a possible 7-3. Personally, I'm interested in the Geiger-Midori argument specifically.
  40. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    OK Ulyzed, I've edited in some stuff.

    I don't think MM is good after 3 turns anyway (they've drawn too much stuff to make it too useful). What makes MM so good vs. Sets is that Sets normal handsize is 6 and sometimes 3, whereas other people's hand size quickly grows vs. Grave.
  41. SillySod

    SillySod Active Member

    Viva - could you order the names in that list to make it clear who has the advantage/disadvantage?

    I think I know which characters are alleged to be advantaged but its tough work trawling through the list. Also, Geiger/Midori and Jaina/Midori are not problem matchups. Jaina/Midori is hard but very winnable, actually its pretty cool the way dragon attacks and unstable power interact, Jaina cant shut down Midori like she shuts down other characters. Geiger/Midori is a super interesting matchup where both characters can struggle to land blocks. The common myth is that Geiger gets alot of easy damage and hence has the advantage but actually Midori finds it much easier to land a block which allows him to translate hits into damage much more consistently that Geiger.

    The easiest way to buff Midori would be to improve the damage on Wrath of Earth. Improving his early/mid dodge/poke/gold burst options ought to help against the attack spam problem matchups while the extra damage makes him that little bit nicer overall, which is good because he has a nice place in the metagame.
  42. UlyZed

    UlyZed Active Member

    Thanks. Some of it was entertaining as well as informative :).

    As a new player, understanding experienced player's perceptions is critical.
  43. Aphotix

    Aphotix Super Moderator Staff Member

    Wait, did you typo or are you saying Sets - Grave is hard for Grave? Unless people have figured out some new strategy, this match was concidered damn good for grave. Landing a single block leads to a headache for Sets, and Grave aces end the game quickly.
  44. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    Typo, I will fix it.
  45. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Well-Known Member

    Are you saying having total knowledge of the opponents hand isn't worth card disadvantage? When compared to things like TR, which does net card disadvantage, i'd say it's one of the ones I actually wouldn't mind.
  46. Inkstud

    Inkstud Well-Known Member

    What is the flavor for Martial Mastery allowing you to draw two and then discard one, rather than just drawing one like a regular cantrip?
  47. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    Obscura is right. If MM was on T but didn't filter, it would be pretty bad. I think it might be used sometimes when Grave had a huge hand, was looking to hit-confirm AAA, and wanted to see if his opponent had a joker. But in general, the ability isn't worth a card.

    That said I think a cantrip version is still playable, particularly if it is on T.
  48. Choke Artist

    Choke Artist Well-Known Member

    There are a lot of abilities that aren't really used. Wouldn't kill Grave to have one.
  49. Shiri

    Shiri Well-Known Member

    It's not very fun though.

    EDIT: Not sure if vivafringe is disagreeing with me or choke, but to clarify, MM is fairly fun, it would be less fun if it just sat there not being used.
  50. vivafringe

    vivafringe Moderator Staff Member

    I disagree!

    First, MM is one of the most fun abilities in the game. Getting to peek at an opponent's hand creates interesting Yomi decisions that are unique to the game (so far). One of the reasons for the 7-10 switch is we want the fun ability to be used more and the boring counter to be used less (and to be fair, the counter would be less boring if it was on 7, because it would have a real cost).

    In general, I think abilities that aren't really used are a waste of space and should be changed. Maybe it's time to make another list:

    Argagarg 7*
    DeGrey 4*
    Val 7*

    These abilities would ideally be reworked somehow. Right now people use them because they are fun, not because they are actually good.

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